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Sebastian Vettel Thread Part II


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#2951 fed up

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:51

I think you need to make linguistic allowances for us "foreigners", and clumsiness how we express ourselves. As I read it, what Vettel is actually saying is, that Hamilton stopped on track prematurely due to strategic decision by McLaren to run a lap on very low level (on fumes), and in process they miscalculated volume of fuel required to complete lap (whereas RB had enough fuel, but undisclosed technical issue necessitated to shut down the engine). Anyway, this is how I am interpreting it.


They were the same circumstances hence the same penalty.

The drive to 3rd was heroic mind. Nando must have been gobsmacked to see the RBR in his rear view mirror :wave:

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#2952 Juggles

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:47

The severity of the penalty for Vettel is absurd, just as it was for Hamilton in Spain. As such, I want him to have a good race and get a few points out of it. Unfortunately I'm not convinced he will unless there are a couple of retirements in the top ten or a safety car. This is a hard track to overtake on and he is starting from the pitlane; I imagine this will cost him an extra ten seconds or so in time spent catching the pack and overtaking drivers he may have passed off the start line. Still, he's certainly capable of it.

Vettel fans should take heart in the thirteen point cushion he has built for himself over the last four races. In my book Alonso is highly unlikely to get higher than third today so if Vettel doesn't score points he is still only two points behind with two races left, and would very much have his destiny in his own hands. I hope we see Vettel unleashed today, it could be quite a sight.


I asked and he delivered. He almost took it too far at the beginning but after the first safety car period and the new front wing he was superb. He made the necessary overtakes nice and quickly (his pass on Button was lovely) and his pace in clear air was excellent. The second safety car only made him one place, I think the contact pantomime going on ahead was probably more influential in getting competitive cars out of his way but, as we so often see with Alonso, he was in a position to take advantage because of strong driving and a carpe diem mentality.

Credit where credit is due. No more complaints from me if Vettel wins the title this year.

#2953 Sakae

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 14:31

They were the same circumstances hence the same penalty.

The drive to 3rd was heroic mind. Nando must have been gobsmacked to see the RBR in his rear view mirror :wave:

I might get in trouble with mods since this topic belongs to another thread, but let me just say, that I do not entirely agree with you, since there is substantive difference, and FiA understood that, which is why there was no financial penalty. What Sebastian I think tried to say in his interview, that despite penalty is the same, intent is not; in Spain McLaren intentionally fuelled low (barring running out of gas) and miscalculated, whereas RB hasn’t miscalculated, but suffered unexpected equipment malfunction(s), nature of which wasn't made public in full. Put it differently, we (outsiders) know effect, but not causes. In the interview he tried to say it all in one short answer, and it came out really not very well, which upset some people, especially McLaren disciples.

Edited by Sakae, 05 November 2012 - 14:36.


#2954 engel

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 14:45

there are 2 breaches

one is failing to return to the pits under its own power (for which the FIA accepted force majeure for RB but not for McLaren and McLaren was fined)

the other is failing to provide an adequate fuel sample for which there is no force majeure, it's a techinical breach, the car is illegal and it's up to the stewards discretion if it will be allowed to race

Nitpicking whether RB had force majeure for not returning to the pits is pointless. It would only have mattered if they had been able to provide the fuel sample as per regulations.

#2955 Sakae

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 14:56

there are 2 breaches

one is failing to return to the pits under its own power (for which the FIA accepted force majeure for RB but not for McLaren and McLaren was fined)

the other is failing to provide an adequate fuel sample for which there is no force majeure, it's a techinical breach, the car is illegal and it's up to the stewards discretion if it will be allowed to race

Nitpicking whether RB had force majeure for not returning to the pits is pointless. It would only have mattered if they had been able to provide the fuel sample as per regulations.

I do agree with you in terms of breaches, but topic discussed earlier with two posters evolved around what Sebastian actually said in the interview about McLaren, and what I think he meant to say, namely making distinction between those two stoppages related incidents. He was upset, and his oratory was not in best shape at that time. Just as with Schumacher in 2004 after his track related adventures, language barrier got little bit in a way. I am of course giving him benefit of doubt, but that's how I understood his response.

Edited by Sakae, 05 November 2012 - 14:58.


#2956 engel

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:01

I do agree with you in terms of breaches, but topic discussed earlier with two posters evolved around what Sebastian actually said in the interview about McLaren, and what I think he meant to say, namely making distinction between those two stoppages related incidents. He was upset, and his oratory was not in best shape at that time. Just as with Schumacher in 2004 after his advetures, language barrier got little bit in a way. I am of course giving him benefit of doubt, but that's how I understood his response.


The difference between the two incidents is simple: if both McLaren and RedBull had been able to supply the required fuel sample, McLaren would still have received a penalty for breaching the must get back to the pits under their own power rule (which ironically was created for a similar incident involving McLaren in Canada) while RedBull wouldn't have been punished. But that is far removed from proving "intent" on McLaren's part as is being hinted. They knew the rule was there since they were the reason it was there, there's no logic in them intentionally trying to break it. It was just a cockup in the pits, some guy either ordered less fuel or actually put less fuel than was ordered in the car.

#2957 Sakae

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:11

The difference between the two incidents is simple: if both McLaren and RedBull had been able to supply the required fuel sample, McLaren would still have received a penalty for breaching the must get back to the pits under their own power rule (which ironically was created for a similar incident involving McLaren in Canada) while RedBull wouldn't have been punished. But that is far removed from proving "intent" on McLaren's part as is being hinted. They knew the rule was there since they were the reason it was there, there's no logic in them intentionally trying to break it. It was just a cockup in the pits, some guy either ordered less fuel or actually put less fuel than was ordered in the car.

Again, not to beat the topic to dead, but I am not expressing here an opinion on this subject, but merely tried to interject a point of view what Vettel, correctly or not, said, and what he most likely actually meant to say. People took ofense to his statement, but I think he would hardly get on the podium and accuse Mclaren of >whatever<. If you are profficient in German language and familiar with cultural differences, it is somewhat easier to fill up the blanks.

#2958 engel

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:17

People pay way too much attention to what non native speaking people say in a press conference that happens 5 minutes after the race. What Vettel realistically meant was that McLaren knew they didn't have enough fuel to get back to the pits and provide a sample, so they stopped the car, while Red Bull had enough fuel to get back to the pits but had to stop due to a technical malfuction in the car. Whoopty doo ...

#2959 fed up

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:48

People pay way too much attention to what non native speaking people say in a press conference that happens 5 minutes after the race. What Vettel realistically meant was that McLaren knew they didn't have enough fuel to get back to the pits and provide a sample, so they stopped the car, while Red Bull had enough fuel to get back to the pits but had to stop due to a technical malfuction in the car. Whoopty doo ...


Both circumstances were the same, but I guess it depends whether one believes Vettel's version of events.

Both cars stopped on track and neither was able to provide a fuel sample.

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#2960 Sakae

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:51

People pay way too much attention to what non native speaking people say in a press conference that happens 5 minutes after the race. What Vettel realistically meant was that McLaren knew they didn't have enough fuel to get back to the pits and provide a sample, so they stopped the car, while Red Bull had enough fuel to get back to the pits but had to stop due to a technical malfuction in the car. Whoopty doo ...

:)
Now you got it. I am not really sensitive to this difference, but apparently it sounded like it was important to Vettel, that while there was technical issue, Force Majeure, he got penalty for what he considered as a different case that of McLaren. In the heat of the moment legality of the issue was last on his mind, if at all.



Nov 6 : In morning article I read that Horner actually thinks that it was human error. Renault hasn't explained (yet) why the level was low.

Edited by Sakae, 06 November 2012 - 06:28.


#2961 bourbon

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:28

Horner On Vettel

Horner heaps praise on Sebastian - calling the Abu Dhabi drive one of his best!

I agree! :up: :D!!

#2962 Sakae

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:06

One P1 and one P6 will be enough, I think; Vettel takes it based on more wins per season.

Alonso will take it of he he wins both races.

Edited by Sakae, 07 November 2012 - 05:29.


#2963 H2H

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:36


Well I do not like to make calculations. Seb certainly has delivered, kept his focus despite the setbacks. Stories like the 'cucumber', bad Qualis, alternators and lastly the fuel issue and a 'stop-and-go' Aussie had hardly an impact on his race performance. Overall his race craft has been brilliant this year, absolutely not surprisingly and he got a lot of points in very difficult situations.

It is amusing, as I have written many times before how the strenght of a car and its setup choices influence the opinion on the 'overtaking skill'. The recent RBs were built and setup with speed over a single lap in mind which made them quite inferior for 'normal' overtakes. I don't have to repeat the issues about hitting the limiter and lack of top speed. The merit of Seb is his ability to make unconventional moves stick, using the strenghts of the RB in terms of downforce and traction and getting creative in things like the KERS use. It is thus no surprise that overtakes on the outside are a bit of a signatur move.

It is of course not surprising and full of irony that while his 20+ overtakes in Abu Dhabi are dowplayed by guys as mostly due to the reset 'overtake' RB8 some of the overplayed difficulties with overtake-limited Red Bulls ( high drag, short 7th, weaker engine) have in their fact-absent mind nothing to do with the weaknesses of the cars. They want to have it both ways, to eat one their cake and have it too. I have to confess this is one of the reason I love this forum, one can have quite a bit of fun reading nonsense.



#2964 gillesthegenius

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:17

From the thread about Vettel's drive At the yas marina...

He wasn't.


Ok. Webber wasnt a multiple race winner before he was teamed up against Vettel. Agreed.

But Hamilton was somehow a winner of mutiple races and a world champion before he was paired up with the double world champion who lost to a rookie, right?

The irony.

*facepalm*


#2965 gillesthegenius

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:31

He should have lost against Webber 2010. Because he would have proven himself against a former WDC in 2011 and 2012.


Well said. When losing to a rookie can do so much to elevate Alonso's status amongst some, Vettel could probably have done himself a big favour by losing the title to Webber in 2010.

Seb really did miss a trick there, because he had a great chance to impress certain 'hard to impress' expert analysts of f1 by losing to Mark in 2010. :D

PS: posted my reply here as I felt that this thread was more appropriate for this discussion that the thread about Seb's last race.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 06 November 2012 - 19:34.


#2966 apoka

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:55

Well said. When losing to a rookie can do so much to elevate Alonso's status amongst some, Vettel could probably have done himself a big favour by losing the title to Webber in 2010.

Seb really did miss a trick there, because he had a great chance to impress certain 'hard to impress' expert analysts of f1 by losing to Mark in 2010. :D

PS: posted my reply here as I felt that this thread was more appropriate for this discussion that the thread about Seb's last race.

Interesting reply, but I see the risk of having the same discussion of the previous years again in this thread. :yawnface: Better wait for the off season. :)

#2967 Afterburner

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:08

Dear God... after reading some of the outright negativity in here towards what has surely got to be one of the most remarkable drives this season, I think I'll be taking a break from the forum until people learn to conduct themselves more maturely. Just really poor sportsmanship here from some... would like to think it will change if Seb wins but I only expect it to get worse. No fun being here if I have to deal with a ton of mudslinging towards my favourite driver every time I go into his thread--or any thread, for that matter.

Either way, I thought Sebastian drove brilliantly last weekend. In spite of a ton of setbacks he managed to claw his way up to the podium--arguably close to the maximum possible result given the circumstances.

Fingers crossed he'll make it three in a row this year. Really hoping he can do it.

Good luck, Sebastian--I'm pulling for you 'til the end. :up:

#2968 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:33

Great effort by Vettel, probably saved his championship with this podium from last on the grid.

#2969 Vesuvius

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:53

at Abu Dhabi, Vettel did 18 overtakes (first laps incidents and gaining places in first lap not counted) which is one more than Jenson Button did at Montreal last year. Vettel's overtake amount is the most in single race anyone has done since Alain Prost overtake record 22 overtakes in one gp set 1984 at South-Africa . In total Vettel has done 43 overtakes this season, which is third highest amount of overtakes after Vergne and Perez who both have 49 overtakes.

#2970 joshb

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:55

at Abu Dhabi, Vettel did 18 overtakes (first laps incidents and gaining places in first lap not counted) which is one more than Jenson Button did at Montreal last year. Vettel's overtake amount is the most in single race anyone has done since Alain Prost overtake record 22 overtakes in one gp set 1984 at South-Africa . In total Vettel has done 43 overtakes this season, which is third highest amount of overtakes after Vergne and Perez who both have 49 overtakes.


check my sig!

#2971 paulrobs

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:11

I wasn't sure about Vettel when he first started driving for RBR but I would have to say that he's the real deal now, surely. For sure he has had a car advantage, as have so many other multiple world champions in the past, and he was a little lucky this last weekend with the safety car periods but he is one hell of a driver for sure. His drive was pretty amazing and I think he is the real deal nowadays. To suggest anything otherwise would be disrespectful. Mind you, he damn nearly stuffed it behind the STR during the last safety car period which would have been more than a little careless but understandable - these cars brake and accelerate so visciously that driving behind a saftety car must be like driving at 70 down a motorway looking out for cars stopped in your lane.

#2972 encircled

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 13:15

Renault: Fuel equipment likely to have caused Vettel's problem

Renault's head of trackside operations Remi Taffin said that he was awaiting a final report from Red Bull, but the likelihood is the fuelling equipment under-delivered on what it claimed had been put in the car.

"We now have gone very deep into the investigation and, if we look back at what we learned from Saturday qualifying to Sunday morning, we obviously eventually discovered that we were missing a bit of fuel in the cell," Taffin told AUTOSPORT.

"We have checked the numbers, we have checked what we have done with the fuel 'robot' and every single number says we should have had the fuel.

"So Red Bull are now checking with the supplier of their 'robot' to check out that we had the right delivery. This is in progress."



#2973 bourbon

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 23:41

Relive Vettel's Charge to the front!


Lap-by-lap: Sebastian Vettel's charge through the F1 field to finish third in Abu Dhabi :

VETTEL'S CHARGE

Edited by bourbon, 07 November 2012 - 23:42.


#2974 sailor

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 14:51

Dear God... after reading some of the outright negativity in here towards what has surely got to be one of the most remarkable drives this season, I think I'll be taking a break from the forum until people learn to conduct themselves more maturely. Just really poor sportsmanship here from some... would like to think it will change if Seb wins but I only expect it to get worse. No fun being here if I have to deal with a ton of mudslinging towards my favourite driver every time I go into his thread--or any thread, for that matter.

Either way, I thought Sebastian drove brilliantly last weekend. In spite of a ton of setbacks he managed to claw his way up to the podium--arguably close to the maximum possible result given the circumstances.

Fingers crossed he'll make it three in a row this year. Really hoping he can do it.

Good luck, Sebastian--I'm pulling for you 'til the end. :up:


If a lot of people hate on one guy - then there must be something wrong with Vettel.






lol - just kidding.

Its just a bit a overachievement jealosy combined with almost insulting overshadowing of established greats in the sport !
Thats life!

#2975 Zava

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:36

Sebastian Vettel still an immature F1 driver - Jacques Villeneuve

"Seb is super quick, but there is a difference with Fernando that emerges in case of an unfavourable situation.

"Alonso remains calm, cool, and rational, while Vettel most of times gets upset, angry, screams and flicks the middle finger. He reacts like a child.


vs.

"Seb is going about his job the way he does it. Mentally he is very strong.

"Before the race I went to see him to wish him good luck, and he is in there playing a drum kit with his trainer. He said, 'I will see you on the podium'.

"He was the one guy in the briefing room on Saturday night, while the rest of us were ready to slit our wrists, who said he could do it.

"It is that mental strength that he has that is one of his biggest assets."


does Jacques like to be laughing stock or what?

#2976 LiJu914

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:49

^^
It don´t think, that the second post necessarily contradicts the first one.

There´s some truth JV´s remark imho. However saying, ALO is completely different, is another story... Imho he also tends to complain/get agitated, if things go wrong.

Edited by LiJu914, 14 November 2012 - 12:19.


#2977 Peat

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:01

Wait, you are comparing quotes from an outspoken ex-driver and the guy's boss.

I think it is you who is the laughing stock.

#2978 Goron3

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:18

Sebastian Vettel still an immature F1 driver - Jacques Villeneuve



vs.


does Jacques like to be laughing stock or what?


Erm, the second one isn't a Jacques quote and in fact comes from Horner.

I don't think many people would say Vettel is a good loser, but that's because since he's arrived at Red Bull he's always had a race winning car at points during the season. It's nothing to be defensive about, many drivers go through the same process (Lewis in 09, Alonso when he went back to Renault etc).

#2979 matzy

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:31

I don't doubt for one second that most of the top flight drivers battling for championships have hissy fits etc. including "cool and calm" Mr. Alonso. Mr. Vettel just forgets to wait until he is back in the paddock or his garage :)

It was a good drive by Mr. Vettel, I have to agree, but he wasn't flawless and we saw some of the chinks in his armor too.

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#2980 Zava

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 13:03

Erm, the second one isn't a Jacques quote and in fact comes from Horner.

I don't think many people would say Vettel is a good loser, but that's because since he's arrived at Red Bull he's always had a race winning car at points during the season. It's nothing to be defensive about, many drivers go through the same process (Lewis in 09, Alonso when he went back to Renault etc).

I know it is a Horner quote. ;)
my point is, we've seen Sebastian in another "championship fight coming to an end and Vettel takes a big blow" moment, which was korea 2010. he was leading the race, was about to take the lead of the championship with only 2 races to go, then the engine goes boom, and it seems that he has lost all hope. what did he do? go back to the pits, and it was him who was comforting the engineers, not vice versa, and this is what makes me believe the Horner quote, because it is perfectly in line with what we saw back then.
and what makes Villeneuve's statement funny, is that he names Alonso out of all the drivers as the other extremity. Alonso cool, calm, rational in defeat? puhhlease...

#2981 H2H

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 13:11

I know it is a Horner quote.;)
my point is, we've seen Sebastian in another "championship fight coming to an end and Vettel takes a big blow" moment, which was korea 2010. he was leading the race, was about to take the lead of the championship with only 2 races to go, then the engine goes boom, and it seems that he has lost all hope. what did he do? go back to the pits, and it was him who was comforting the engineers, not vice versa, and this is what makes me believe the Horner quote, because it is perfectly in line with what we saw back then.
and what makes Villeneuve's statement funny, is that he names Alonso out of all the drivers as the other extremity. Alonso cool, calm, rational in defeat? puhhlease...


Jacques opinion has no value for me as time and experience have taught me well in this regard. If you take the facts of the last 5 years it is hard to make a point that there is a front-runner which has a greater ability to deal with pressure. We will see how things play out in those two races, either way this will not take anything away from the way he dealt with many difficulties so far.

All in all it is not really worth to spent even time to write this post.

#2982 motorhead

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 13:22

Villeneuve needs to mature, maybe it is just too late for him. He is making a fool of himself with his comments. Few months a ago he was bashing Kimi and now Seb...

Edited by motorhead, 14 November 2012 - 13:22.


#2983 Slowinfastout

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 13:25

I also think Vettel is an ace driver, but petulant when things don't go his way.

Don't see what's the problem with saying that, Alonso throws hissy fits as well though, just has a higher threshold.

#2984 The Kanisteri

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 13:31

Maybe Villeneuve is upset because his Xmas Carols Vol. 2 won't sell too well. :well:

#2985 Sakae

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 14:07

Villeneuve needs to mature, maybe it is just too late for him. He is making a fool of himself with his comments. Few months a ago he was bashing Kimi and now Seb...

Making contraversial statements seems the only avenue how he can get headlines these days. I am not sure why media actually don't ignore him.

#2986 Goron3

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 14:09

I know it is a Horner quote.;)
my point is, we've seen Sebastian in another "championship fight coming to an end and Vettel takes a big blow" moment, which was korea 2010. he was leading the race, was about to take the lead of the championship with only 2 races to go, then the engine goes boom, and it seems that he has lost all hope. what did he do? go back to the pits, and it was him who was comforting the engineers, not vice versa, and this is what makes me believe the Horner quote, because it is perfectly in line with what we saw back then.
and what makes Villeneuve's statement funny, is that he names Alonso out of all the drivers as the other extremity. Alonso cool, calm, rational in defeat? puhhlease...


True but Korea was out of his hands in the sense that it was a mechanical problem. jacques is referring to the fact that Seb blames other people and complains about others here and there.; Turkey 2010, Malaysia, Korea (the Massa incident), the safety car incident at Hungary 2010 and at AD 2012.

I don't understand why people are defending this point. EVERY driver that comes into F1 will behave like this to a certain extent given the nature of the sport and the way you have to get into it. If you're in a race winning car regularly that attitude will only strengthen, it happens in every sport and particularly in F1 as its an 'individuals' name on the championship.

It's completely expected for Seb to behave like that; you will be hard pressed to find any young & successful driver (or sportsman) who wouldn't be. heck, Senna was a saint off the track but on it even he would never accept anything was his fault.

#2987 SpaMaster

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 16:18

If ever there was a proof that JV had long lost it. Just totally placing the attributes of Alonso and Vettel as opposite. "Being totally petulant when things don't go his way" - I think there would be a runaway winner to illustrate that if there was a poll! :D

I have often wondered how idiotic statements such as this get so much publicity. Then I realized it is precisely because of that - idiotic!

#2988 EvanRainer

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 16:23

I also think Vettel is an ace driver, but petulant when things don't go his way.

Don't see what's the problem with saying that, Alonso throws hissy fits as well though, just has a higher threshold.


When has Vettel thrown a "hissy fit"?

And don't bring up anything said over the radio, to criticize what drivers say in the heat of the moment is ridiculous and that goes for all drivers.

Feel free to claim that Vettel hasn't faced that much adversity in his career yet, but he has been involved in much less drama than most others including Alonso.

#2989 MP422

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 16:33

When has Vettel thrown a "hissy fit"?

And don't bring up anything said over the radio, to criticize what drivers say in the heat of the moment is ridiculous and that goes for all drivers.

Feel free to claim that Vettel hasn't faced that much adversity in his career yet, but he has been involved in much less drama than most others including Alonso.


Abu dhabi behind the safety car after he almost crashed he blames it on the car ahead. Valencia after his alternator failure and after he clipped off NK front wing in Malaysia.

#2990 JtP1

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 16:35

does Jacques like to be laughing stock or what?

Patently obviously "YES", otherwise he would have altered his behaviour patterns and public statements over the last decade or more.

Never mind, if someone pays him $30m, he might consider sitting in their racing car.

#2991 Slowinfastout

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 16:38

Abu dhabi behind the safety car after he almost crashed he blames it on the car ahead. Valencia after his alternator failure and after he clipped off NK front wing in Malaysia.


That doesn't count because that's outside the frame the poster asked for.

There are special rules to determine if a driver is more petulant than an other, as everyone knows this is an exact science and not something to be expressed in a 'general observation' kind of way.

#2992 H2H

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 16:38

Abu dhabi behind the safety car after he almost crashed he blames it on the car ahead. Valencia after his alternator failure and after he clipped off NK front wing in Malaysia.


:rotfl:

Quite bitter as usual, aren't you. The last ones are clearly his fault. :lol:

#2993 Slowinfastout

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 16:41

Oh, it has to be his fault too?

It's even more special than I thought.

#2994 fatd

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 16:59

Well... I've seen worse mental strength and behaviors from drivers around his age to be fair.
True that sometimes he does come across as very petulant and childish, but I think JV is taking it a bit too far with the way he describes it, which seems to put Vettel's maturity 'in contrast' to Alonso's.
He can certainly phrase it better than, "Alonso remains calm, cool and rational while Vettel gets upset, angry, screams, and flicks middle finger".

#2995 joshb

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:03

I didn't agree with much on the Villeneuve article, but then again, I don't often agree with JV.
Also, I didn't expect a journo of even Benson's low standard to deliver the drivel he did in his article for the BBC (Who deserves the title more?). I expect the patriotic bias and anti RB bitterness from Alguersuari in his columns but a 'pro' journo ought to be doing better than that.

I can understand Alonso may be more deserving but claiming Vettel had made errors in India (4 wheels on pole lap when Alonso did the same in Germany), Malaysia (50/50 at worst and Karthikeyan got penalised for it) and Japan (a 50/50 'block' on Alonso) whilst claiming Alonso has had more bad luck than him is borderline bias. The article gives the uneducated the feeling that Seb lucked into being in the title battle at all and that it should be between Alonso/Hamilton

I know hes not the preferred winner this season but it would be nice to annoy a few people. Some difficult articles will need to be made if he makes it 3 in a row.
Go Seb, 105 weeks and almost 2 years to the day since Abu Dhabi 2010, nail number 3.

#2996 sv401

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:04

Oh, it has to be his fault too?


That must be why NK was penalized (oh wait, I forgot there is a FIA conspiracy to make Red Bull and Vettel champions). :rolleyes: In any case, the comparison to Alonso is not entirely fair, as the Spaniard did not have to face much adversity recently, other than not having a car with the best pace on average (by adversity, I mean things like competition and pressure from the team-mate, criticism/attacks by the media or other drivers, FIA penalties, losing many points because of car failures, etc.). Replace Massa with Hamilton in the other Ferrari, give him equal status, and see what happens then. :D

#2997 joshb

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:06

And it is the 14th of November today.
2 years ago today... :clap: :clap:

#2998 Slowinfastout

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:07

It's an opinion..

Alonso screams for Charlie sometimes, so as far as I'm concerned it's not like he's a beacon of calm and measured.

JV said other things too, I happen to agree with most of it, but of course the headline is 'Vettel reacts like a child', so the fanboy thread will predictably react like someone touched their genitals without permission.

If it makes anyone feel better, it's kinda OT but I'd rather have Vettel taking the championship than Alonso. If Vettel wins it's just gonna be another championship.. If Alonso wins, it will be a bigger achievement but we will never hear the end of it, the forum here will be even more unbearable, which is in itself pretty hard to contemplate.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 14 November 2012 - 17:17.


#2999 joshb

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:15

That must be why NK was penalized (oh wait, I forgot there is a FIA conspiracy to make Red Bull and Vettel champions). :rolleyes: In any case, the comparison to Alonso is not entirely fair, as the Spaniard did not have to face much adversity recently, other than not having a car with the best pace on average (by adversity, I mean things like competition and pressure from the team-mate, criticism/attacks by the media or other drivers, FIA penalties, losing many points because of car failures, etc.). Replace Massa with Hamilton in the other Ferrari, give him equal status, and see what happens then. :D


That's partly why Seb having 4 years alongside Webber will help him make the transition if he gets a teammate who starts beating him.
Webber has shown he can match and beat Seb and in 3 of the 4 years together, Webber lead him deep into the year (09 until Spa, 2010 until Abu Dhabi and 2012 until Hungary). He knows what its like to be behind and he knows how to come back and turn it on when it gets to the crunch.
If he went to Ferrari, Alonso getting a head start on him would not be a problem as he's been there before or if a fast driver replaced Webber, he would cope fine.

Alonso's driving superbly last 2 1/2 years but hes comfy in the situation where Massa is nowhere near as good as him and no chance of beating him over a sustained period. You suddenly throw in someone who, after 6,8,10 races is still level or ahead of him, he'll start to worry and get ragged, like in 07, then you've got a foothold and a chance of competing over 20 races. If someone gets ahead of Vettel after 8,10 races, its alright, he'll keep going and grind it out late season.

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#3000 EvanRainer

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:47

There are special rules to determine if a driver is more petulant than an other, as everyone knows this is an exact science and not something to be expressed in a 'general observation' kind of way.


I am not the one who is coming out making comparisons or judging how "petulant" drivers are.

To be honest I am just sick of people making completely unfounded claims or trying to equate incomparable situations. Am I a fanboy for not letting just any claim go unchallenged?

I asked how is Vettel throwing hissy fits and has displayed behaviour comparable or surpassing that of other drivers and I had one response utterly missing the point and displayed 0 reading comprehension of my post and your response where you provided no proof and proceeded with a snide remark instead.

Edited by EvanRainer, 14 November 2012 - 17:48.