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Sebastian Vettel Thread Part II


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#3201 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:22

Not nearly as much as Vettel lost behind Karthikeyan. The lap he was overtaken in was a 1:42.746. The laps before and after that were a 1:40.850 and a 1:40.677, so he lost about 2s there. I wouldn't really blame Karthikeyan though, he couldn't really go anywhere, it was just unfortunate.

Then there's the thing with the straightline speed of course. VET 308.2, HAM 314.6. So even with DRS, Vettel would have been only marginally faster then Hamilton, not enough to get past on the straight. Wouldn't call it pathetic though, RBR just sets up the car differently, with probably more downforce and shorter gearing then McL, giving them an advantage in the corners and traction zones for the price of a disadvantage on the straights.

at the same time seb has had backmarker DRS for a couple of times before the pass and was pretty lucky with that.
it's just racing, i don't know why he was bitching about it.

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#3202 joshb

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:39

Stats courtesy of the plus feature

Sebastian Vettel started the US Grand Prix from pole, but was passed on track by a McLaren, which went on to win.

So far in his career, Vettel has turned 19 poles into wins, and only five times has he finished second after starting from the front. They are:

• China 2011: Where he was passed by Lewis Hamilton four laps from the end of the race.

• Canada 2011: When Jenson Button got by him on the last lap.

• Hungary 2011: Both McLarens passed the polesitter, but Vettel recovered one place when Hamilton made a mistake in his strategy.

• Brazil 2011: Where he allowed team-mate Mark Webber to pass him to take the win (after his gearbox problem).

• USA 2012: Hamilton went by to victory.

Hamilton's move in Texas was only the seventh (I make it 10, of which 9 are for position) time Vettel has been overtaken all season. This in itself is a remarkable statistic, but digging deeper it emerges that the German has been passed just 16 times since the start of the 2010 season (57 races), and then only by a select group of drivers: Hamilton (six times), Button (four), Fernando Alonso (three), Webber (two) and once, after a safety-car restart in China two years ago, by Adrian Sutil.

Vettel last retired due to a racing accident after his infamous encounter with his team-mate Mark Webber in the 2010 Turkish Grand Prix. Fifty races (half his GP career) have passed since then. This puts him second to Nick Heidfeld who managed 56 races without an accident (France 2006 to Italy 2009).

Vettel was at the top of the sheets in all the six practice/qualifying sessions, the first time a driver has done this since the introduction of six-session weekends. To find a similar level of dominance we have to go back to the 1998 Brazilian Grand Prix, where Mika Hakkinen topped four sessions: two free practice, qualifying and the warm-up. Even further back, at the 1994 Monaco GP, Michael Schumacher was first in five sessions: two practice, two qualifying and the warm-up. Hakkinen and Schumacher went on to dominate their races, taking victory, fastest lap and leading lights to flag. Vettel, on the other hand, recorded the fastest lap at Austin, but failed to win

#3203 dau

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:40

He was just annoyed and venting his anger. I wouldn't read too much into that.

#3204 choyothe

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:49

Vettel last retired due to a racing accident after his infamous encounter with his team-mate Mark Webber in the 2010 Turkish Grand Prix. Fifty races (half his GP career) have passed since then. This puts him second to Nick Heidfeld who managed 56 races without an accident (France 2006 to Italy 2009).


:eek: That's a pretty amazing stat.

#3205 Zava

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:55

Stats courtesy of the plus feature

Sebastian Vettel started the US Grand Prix from pole, but was passed on track by a McLaren, which went on to win.

So far in his career, Vettel has turned 19 poles into wins, and only five times has he finished second after starting from the front. They are:

• China 2011: Where he was passed by Lewis Hamilton four laps from the end of the race.

• Canada 2011: When Jenson Button got by him on the last lap.

• Hungary 2011: Both McLarens passed the polesitter, but Vettel recovered one place when Hamilton made a mistake in his strategy.

• Brazil 2011: Where he allowed team-mate Mark Webber to pass him to take the win (after his gearbox problem).

• USA 2012: Hamilton went by to victory.

Hamilton's move in Texas was only the seventh (I make it 10, of which 9 are for position) time Vettel has been overtaken all season. This in itself is a remarkable statistic, but digging deeper it emerges that the German has been passed just 16 times since the start of the 2010 season (57 races), and then only by a select group of drivers: Hamilton (six times), Button (four), Fernando Alonso (three), Webber (two) and once, after a safety-car restart in China two years ago, by Adrian Sutil.

Vettel last retired due to a racing accident after his infamous encounter with his team-mate Mark Webber in the 2010 Turkish Grand Prix. Fifty races (half his GP career) have passed since then. This puts him second to Nick Heidfeld who managed 56 races without an accident (France 2006 to Italy 2009).

Vettel was at the top of the sheets in all the six practice/qualifying sessions, the first time a driver has done this since the introduction of six-session weekends. To find a similar level of dominance we have to go back to the 1998 Brazilian Grand Prix, where Mika Hakkinen topped four sessions: two free practice, qualifying and the warm-up. Even further back, at the 1994 Monaco GP, Michael Schumacher was first in five sessions: two practice, two qualifying and the warm-up. Hakkinen and Schumacher went on to dominate their races, taking victory, fastest lap and leading lights to flag. Vettel, on the other hand, recorded the fastest lap at Austin, but failed to win

wow, nice work Josh. :up:
though I would edit one if I were you: managed 50 races without a race ending accident. who could forget spa that year :blush:

Edited by Zava, 19 November 2012 - 14:56.


#3206 Kelateboy

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:12

1 more to the tally of RB's pathetic straightline speed not allowing Vettel to fight; again he was passed before even arriving to the braking zone, with Hamilton over half a second behind into the straight. Even if Newey says that setup is the fastest way around the track I'm not sure about it being overall net positive in quali + race, everything just becomes exponentially harder because of that.

For Vettel to win with the current Red Bull's setup of shorter gearing and more wings, he has to make sure he got three things right - qualifying, the start and pulling away.

In the last race, he did okay with 1 and 2 but he failed in the last category - pulling away.

The classic case of Red Bull's extreme setup in search of faster lap time at the expense of top speed was Monza 2011. Vettel was 20kph down at the speed trap to the fastest car, yet he still won that race rather comfortably with this strategy.

I remembered watching closely Red Bull's top speed at Suzuka especially after the introduction of DDRS. They tried to increase their top speed at the expense of some DF in FP1 and FP2, but eventually reverted to their old proven setup. From being the 8th fastest at the speed trap in Japan, they were dead-last or thereabout came FP3 and Qualifying.

#3207 Kelateboy

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:15

Well, I hope for dry weather and a really boring processional race. :p The forecast says rain on Saturday and Sunday, but that can still change.

I hope it stays bone dry in Interlagos this upcoming week. Mixed conditions or rain is something that could work against Vettel, given Alonso and Ferrari's excellent record in wet conditions this season.

#3208 joshb

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:17

wow, nice work Josh. :up:
though I would edit one if I were you: managed 50 races without a race ending accident. who could forget spa that year :blush:


did not retire! Came 15th and a lap down!
Other collisions sinc e Turkey 2010 were Malaysia 2012, came 11th and Abu Dhabi 2012, came 3rd
So the Crash Kid who can't overtake cleanly done good!






#3209 oligc94

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:23

did not retire! Came 15th and a lap down!
Other collisions sinc e Turkey 2010 were Malaysia 2012, came 11th and Abu Dhabi 2012, came 3rd
So the Crash Kid who can't overtake cleanly done good!


To be fair, though, he hasn't had to do a whole lot of overtaking since 2010  ;)

Nice stats nonetheless!


#3210 bourbon

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:28

To be fair, though, he hasn't had to do a whole lot of overtaking since 2010 ;)

Nice stats nonetheless!


That is an amazing stat in itself as it speaks to his ability at qualifying with the Red Bull.

#3211 mprtc

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:51

Great drive by Karthikeyan ... this is how backmakers should drive

#3212 Ricardo F1

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:19

That is an amazing stat in itself as it speaks to his ability at qualifying with the Red Bull.

Speaks to the ability of the Red Bull as well.


#3213 Zava

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:27

did not retire! Came 15th and a lap down!
Other collisions sinc e Turkey 2010 were Malaysia 2012, came 11th and Abu Dhabi 2012, came 3rd
So the Crash Kid who can't overtake cleanly done good!

yeah, I know, I didn't change the number, just saying that spa 2010 I think qualifies as an accident (and as an accident caused by him), but it wasn't a race ending one. :)

#3214 joshb

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 19:28

Speaks to the ability of the Red Bull as well.


True, it does help to have a car capable of qualifying highup but still, there have been a few races where he's been able to defend against a sizeable top speed advantage. It is a strength of his
Yesterday, whether or not Hamilton got close enough to have a lunge, he didn't defend fresh air despite him being uncomfortably close to having a look on several occasions

#3215 prty

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:18

Didn't understand it at the time, but found Vettel's team radio:



Can somebody transcribe it? I can't get it 100%, but from what I understood, he criticized on air F1 and how easy it is to overtake.
If so, maybe a bigger mistake than losing 1st position.



#3216 repete

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:25

Didn't understand it at the time, but found Vettel's team radio:



Can somebody transcribe it? I can't get it 100%, but from what I understood, he criticized on air F1 and how easy it is to overtake.
If so, maybe a bigger mistake than losing 1st position.


He was complaining about Narkar.

#3217 mnmracer

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:25

Didn't understand it at the time, but found Vettel's team radio:



Can somebody transcribe it? I can't get it 100%, but from what I understood, he criticized on air F1 and how easy it is to overtake.
If so, maybe a bigger mistake than losing 1st position.

What I got from pretty much every media outlet, this was only part of the message.
Apparently he told that the overtake happened because Karthikeyan held him up. which brought Lewis close enough to make it rediculously easy to overtake.

#3218 joshb

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:32

That's spot on- as I thought live.
It was never going to be about Hamiltons pass- there was nothing wrong with it- it was the fact he got stuck behind Karthikeyan and it gave Hamilton a run on him, which he took advantage of.
He was annoyed because until then- he had been holding him off (not comfortably at times though)

#3219 plumtree

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:53

http://www.fia.com/e...-conf-usa4.aspx

Q: (Adam Hay-Nicholls - Metro) Seb, what were you complaining about when Lewis overtook you?
SV: I think you misunderstood. I wasn't complaining about Lewis, obviously. I wasn't too happy send a nice big invitation to Lewis when I obviously had to go through Karthikeyan and he was basically right behind at the DRS zone; to do a big difference within one corner is hardly possible and then he took that opportunity - fair enough - down the straight and passed me. I tried to defend, I moved to the inside but I knew that he would have so much more speed that he can pick either side, so it didn't really matter what I was doing and after that, I was obviously not too happy, because on all the laps before I tried to manage the gap to him, tried to manage the tyres until the end of the race, to be able to attack towards the last couple of laps. We had, I think, something like 20 laps, 15 laps to go at the time. It was not targeted at Lewis, it was more targeted at the backmarker which, as I said, gave a nice big envelope with an invitation to Lewis.

Q: (Sarah Holt - CNN.com world sport) It was a similar question, actually, but we don't often see you, Sebastian, being very emotional but we heard you being emotional on the radio there. A question about the pressures you're feeling. You've been in this position twice before, is it harder third time around?
SV: I don't think it had anything to do with that in that moment. I was really thinking about the points that could make a difference today or next week or the championship. I wanted to win today. I had a fantastic race, I was very happy, enjoyed the fight with Lewis a lot and obviously through that lost the lead. Equally knew that we can get it back but as it turned out it was extremely difficult. We had the same pace so I think I was probably in the same boat as Lewis, the first half of the race where I was just trying to get close enough to try and get the move done but that didn't happen until the end. I think many times it's difficult for you to judge what's going on because not all the messages get broadcast so we do communicate quite a bit during the race - sometimes calmer, sometimes not so calm so at that moment, obviously, I wasn't too happy to lose the lead.

Edited by plumtree, 19 November 2012 - 20:56.


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#3220 prty

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 21:28

What was the exact sentence in the radio then?
I got "[...] Formula 1 [...] these days? [...] it's easy to overtake"

Edited by prty, 19 November 2012 - 21:33.


#3221 fred54

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 21:32

What was the exact sentence? I got "engine? [...] Formula 1 [...] it's easy to overtake"


"Unbelieable. How silly is Formula 1 this season....with this stupid overtake."

#3222 Kingshark

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:08

I dunno if I'm going to be able to watch Brazil... anything that can go wrong usually will when Alonso is your opponent, so the only plus is that there's a good chance the best Alonso will be able to do next weekend will be the podium.

So it's always Vettel fans that create the "Fernando Alonso inheritor" threads on this forum whenever something goes Alonso's way, don't they. Well, having to hear 24/7 about how consistently lucky Alonso always is, frankly is no less annoying than having to listen about how Vettel only wins with the best car.

#3223 Afterburner

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:30

So it's always Vettel fans that create the "Fernando Alonso inheritor" threads on this forum whenever something goes Alonso's way, don't they. Well, having to hear 24/7 about how consistently lucky Alonso always is, frankly is no less annoying than having to listen about how Vettel only wins with the best car.

I didn't intend that as an insult, but you're entitled to go all keyboard warrior on me and start defending your favourite in a thread that doesn't even concern him--I won't stop you.

#3224 pingu666

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:45

i did :D at the interview where he said "as cool as .... (oh **** i cant say cucumber).... pope"


#3225 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:23

at the same time seb has had backmarker DRS for a couple of times before the pass and was pretty lucky with that.
It's just racing, i don't know why he was bitching about it.

Are you serious? It's just racing? Lol. "Oh, its just a win that I lost due to a slow backmarker. Oh well.." Do you really think any driver would just shrug their shoulders over a missed win?

There is not a single driver on the grid that would not be pissed in the same situation. I watched the race again and saw HRTs moving out of the way much earlier in other situations. In this case, Narain was not as awake and that cost Vettel the win. He was right to be annoyed. Dont tell me that you would just say "It's just racing" in the same situation. It happens, yes. But people calling Vettel a whiner or that he is "bitching about it" because he uttered his displeasement over it, is pretty rich. A lot of hypocrisy in this thread to be honest.

Edited by Desdirodeabike, 20 November 2012 - 07:24.


#3226 jstrains

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:11

German tabloid BILD busy with Vettel-Narain conflict

Posted Image

http://www.bild.de/s...76258.bild.html

Edited by jstrains, 20 November 2012 - 10:19.


#3227 KingB

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:27

and Helmut Marko shows us his skills again...

„Sch... Karthikeyan! Schon wieder der! Er hat uns den Sieg gekostet!“

"Damn (softened) Karthikeyan! That guy again! He robbed our victory!"
:rolleyes:

#3228 jstrains

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:39

Helmut is an older man, I would not take him so seriously, but amusing as always! :rotfl:

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Edited by jstrains, 20 November 2012 - 10:41.


#3229 joshb

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:43

Would love it if Vettel cleaned up the title and then went off on one in the presser. The mind games some drivers have been trying on him have been embarrassing.


#3230 apoka

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 23:03

Just some minor updates on betting odds: Alonso went from about 5.4 directly after the race to 4.8 whereas Vettel went up from 1.2 to 1.25 (betfair). Most likely that is caused by the weather forecasts, which still suggest possibly rain in qualy and race. More specifically, it looks like heavy rain in qualy which could result in a pretty mixed up grid and light rain during the race. In any case, I hope they get the car setup right in case Vettel has to start from further back.


#3231 Kingshark

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 23:36

If Vettel does end up losing this years championship, then Red Bull will probably end up blaming Karthikeyan.

Edited by Kingshark, 20 November 2012 - 23:36.


#3232 MP422

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 23:44

Stats courtesy of the plus feature

Sebastian Vettel started the US Grand Prix from pole, but was passed on track by a McLaren, which went on to win.

So far in his career, Vettel has turned 19 poles into wins, and only five times has he finished second after starting from the front. They are:

• China 2011: Where he was passed by Lewis Hamilton four laps from the end of the race.

• Canada 2011: When Jenson Button got by him on the last lap.

• Hungary 2011: Both McLarens passed the polesitter, but Vettel recovered one place when Hamilton made a mistake in his strategy.

• Brazil 2011: Where he allowed team-mate Mark Webber to pass him to take the win (after his gearbox problem).

• USA 2012: Hamilton went by to victory.

Hamilton's move in Texas was only the seventh (I make it 10, of which 9 are for position) time Vettel has been overtaken all season. This in itself is a remarkable statistic, but digging deeper it emerges that the German has been passed just 16 times since the start of the 2010 season (57 races), and then only by a select group of drivers: Hamilton (six times), Button (four), Fernando Alonso (three), Webber (two) and once, after a safety-car restart in China two years ago, by Adrian Sutil.

Vettel last retired due to a racing accident after his infamous encounter with his team-mate Mark Webber in the 2010 Turkish Grand Prix. Fifty races (half his GP career) have passed since then. This puts him second to Nick Heidfeld who managed 56 races without an accident (France 2006 to Italy 2009).

Vettel was at the top of the sheets in all the six practice/qualifying sessions, the first time a driver has done this since the introduction of six-session weekends. To find a similar level of dominance we have to go back to the 1998 Brazilian Grand Prix, where Mika Hakkinen topped four sessions: two free practice, qualifying and the warm-up. Even further back, at the 1994 Monaco GP, Michael Schumacher was first in five sessions: two practice, two qualifying and the warm-up. Hakkinen and Schumacher went on to dominate their races, taking victory, fastest lap and leading lights to flag. Vettel, on the other hand, recorded the fastest lap at Austin, but failed to win



Only 6 times you forgot Montreal 2012 when Hamilton smoked him.

#3233 Skinnyguy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 23:46

Would love it if Vettel cleaned up the title and then went off on one in the presser. The mind games some drivers have been trying on him have been embarrassing.


Hope the little big mouth he has inside has the chance to do that too :lol:


#3234 KavB

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 00:13

I just realised this is one of the biggest gaps Vettel will have over Webber since they teamed up. Vettel is over 100 points in front of Mark! It's truly mindblowing considering they were neck and neck for most of the season! It just shows what an amazing end to the season Vettel has had. Also shows how much Mark's second half to the season has damaged his WDC bid...

#3235 Obi Offiah

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 00:29

Only 6 times you forgot Montreal 2012 when Hamilton smoked him.

Vettel didn't finish second that occasion, I believe he may have been 4th?

#3236 apoka

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:03

I just realised this is one of the biggest gaps Vettel will have over Webber since they teamed up. Vettel is over 100 points in front of Mark! It's truly mindblowing considering they were neck and neck for most of the season!

The perception is a bit skewed, because of the Nahrain incident and Valencia. So Vettel had his share of bad luck in the first part of the season and Webber more in the second part. While Webber was very close to Vettel in qualy initially, in the races Vettel was faster. Silverstone was the real turnaround in this season. Since then, Webber got 51 points and Vettel 173.


#3237 joshb

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:16

Only 6 times you forgot Montreal 2012 when Hamilton smoked him.


wasnt a pass for the win though. it was a pass for 2nd at the time

#3238 joshb

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:18

The perception is a bit skewed, because of the Nahrain incident and Valencia. So Vettel had his share of bad luck in the first part of the season and Webber more in the second part. While Webber was very close to Vettel in qualy initially, in the races Vettel was faster. Silverstone was the real turnaround in this season. Since then, Webber got 51 points and Vettel 173.


Yeah Weber has had a shocker since Silverstone, a few anonymous weekends and a few reliability niggles and a couple of taps from the 1st lap nutcase.
It should be a bit closer that it is but he's exceeding my pre season tip of a 50-odd point advantage by the end.

#3239 joshb

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:20

Just some minor updates on betting odds: Alonso went from about 5.4 directly after the race to 4.8 whereas Vettel went up from 1.2 to 1.25 (betfair). Most likely that is caused by the weather forecasts, which still suggest possibly rain in qualy and race. More specifically, it looks like heavy rain in qualy which could result in a pretty mixed up grid and light rain during the race. In any case, I hope they get the car setup right in case Vettel has to start from further back.


Alonsos odds came in because it looked a real long shot before the race but now he has some momentum and the fact anything can happen in a 1 off showdown- hence why the bookies are going cautios with Alonsos odds.
Maybe the rain threat has affected the odds slightly but more because its a one-off I think- anything could happen

Which is why i was hoping it would be done before this weekend!

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#3240 sv401

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:19

Just some minor updates on betting odds: Alonso went from about 5.4 directly after the race to 4.8 whereas Vettel went up from 1.2 to 1.25 (betfair). Most likely that is caused by the weather forecasts, which still suggest possibly rain in qualy and race. More specifically, it looks like heavy rain in qualy which could result in a pretty mixed up grid and light rain during the race. In any case, I hope they get the car setup right in case Vettel has to start from further back.


The change in Alonso's odds is most likely a reaction to him losing only 3 points in the end after the situation looking hopeless on Saturday. Webber's alternator failure is probably also a major factor.

Weather forecasts seem to evolve in the direction of the rain arriving later and later, but it also depends on where you look at the forecast. About 2 weeks before the race, it was rain for this entire week, a couple days ago it was rain on Saturday and Sunday, now Saturday also changed to mostly dry and fairly hot, and the heaviest rain has moved from Saturday/Sunday night to Sunday afternoon. However, the same trend could continue further, with the rain not arriving before the end of the race.

#3241 Kelateboy

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:32

The change in Alonso's odds is most likely a reaction to him losing only 3 points in the end after the situation looking hopeless on Saturday. Webber's alternator failure is probably also a major factor.

Weather forecasts seem to evolve in the direction of the rain arriving later and later, but it also depends on where you look at the forecast. About 2 weeks before the race, it was rain for this entire week, a couple days ago it was rain on Saturday and Sunday, now Saturday also changed to mostly dry and fairly hot, and the heaviest rain has moved from Saturday/Sunday night to Sunday afternoon. However, the same trend could continue further, with the rain not arriving before the end of the race.

Good news for Red Bull and specifically, Sebastian.

#3242 bourbon

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 14:38

Sebastian is magic. When you stop and realize all he has accomplished in his short career, it is amazing all over again. GO SEBASTIAN GO! :up:

#3243 joshb

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:06

Sebastian is magic. When you stop and realize all he has accomplished in his short career, it is amazing all over again. GO SEBASTIAN GO! :up:


I konw the car plays more of a role than in MotoGP but Stoner has retired at 27 (just check that!) and has over 30 GP wins (top class only) and 2 titles and lots of pole positions, and only now is many of the MotoGP world starting to appreciate how good he was, now he's finished. People tuned in and went to races so they could say they saw Stoner and his battles with the best.

Seb could do the same and retire now with 2 (or maybe 3 after Sunday) titles, 26 wins and 36 poles in just a few full seasons at 25 y/o and suddenly the perception would change from a lucky kid in a great car to 'Wow, i saw Vettel race' or 'do you remember the Vettel/Hamilton/Alonso days?'

People will realize that he's got insane numbers already, but only after he stops- not while he's still there.

#3244 Obi Offiah

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:10

I konw the car plays more of a role than in MotoGP but Stoner has retired at 27 (just check that!) and has over 30 GP wins (top class only) and 2 titles and lots of pole positions, and only now is many of the MotoGP world starting to appreciate how good he was, now he's finished. People tuned in and went to races so they could say they saw Stoner and his battles with the best.

Seb could do the same and retire now with 2 (or maybe 3 after Sunday) titles, 26 wins and 36 poles in just a few full seasons at 25 y/o and suddenly the perception would change from a lucky kid in a great car to 'Wow, i saw Vettel race' or 'do you remember the Vettel/Hamilton/Alonso days?'

People will realize that he's got insane numbers already, but only after he stops- not while he's still there.

I partially agree with you josh, the difference however is that Stoner could clearly do on the Ducati what no-one else who tried could, including Valentino Rossi and Rossi is pretty much regarded as the G.O.A.T.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 21 November 2012 - 17:11.


#3245 DanardiF1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:34

I partially agree with you josh, the difference however is that Stoner could clearly do on the Ducati what no-one else who tried could, including Valentino Rossi and Rossi is pretty much regarded as the G.O.A.T.


This is the crux of the comparison... Stoner won a title and many races on a bike that no-one else could do squat with, whereas the popular perception of Vettel is that he only could achieve these numbers with the fantastic RB5/6/7/8 cars underneath him.

However, look at what Stoner did when he got on the best equipment... his 2011 season was much like Vettel's in the RB7... win after win after win...

#3246 rijole1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 21:39

The change in Alonso's odds is most likely a reaction to him losing only 3 points in the end after the situation looking hopeless on Saturday. Webber's alternator failure is probably also a major factor.

Weather forecasts seem to evolve in the direction of the rain arriving later and later, but it also depends on where you look at the forecast. About 2 weeks before the race, it was rain for this entire week, a couple days ago it was rain on Saturday and Sunday, now Saturday also changed to mostly dry and fairly hot, and the heaviest rain has moved from Saturday/Sunday night to Sunday afternoon. However, the same trend could continue further, with the rain not arriving before the end of the race.

Just hope for no DNF either for Seb or Alonso and dry weather.
So we get a good race which shows who's the man this year... :)



#3247 F1isZen

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 22:12

Sebastian is magic. When you stop and realize all he has accomplished in his short career, it is amazing all over again. GO SEBASTIAN GO! :up:


Three best drivers in F1 currently, without any doubt and would and have been agreed on by pretty much all of the team bosses and great drivers of the past, and in no particular order.

Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel.

So what do we actually know about who is quicker?

1.) Alonso and Hamilton have raced the same car at the same time and we can make some judgements about that, Hamilton, just beat Alonso for points that season, Hamilton was in his rookie season and Alonso was clearly having issues while at Mclaren, so actually its hard to tell.

2.) Alonso matured significantly when he went to Ferrari and has gone up significantly in my estimations since then.

3.) Hamilton has had temperament issues, however 2012 he hasn;t put a foot wrong on the track and very few faux pas or issues off it.

4.) Seb is really the unknown. His teammate runs him closer than either Hamilton or Alonsos do and we don't really know how much advantage the RB has had for most of the season.

From observation and extrapolation we can conclude the following.

1.) over 1 flying lap, in the same car, Hamiltons raw natural talent would probably mean he was fastest by a small margin.

2.) over a race distance, now Hamilton has matured, assuming they were in the same car, I am far from sure who would win from the three.

3.) Seb is the unknown factor, because he hasn't raced against anyone of very high quality in the same car, its hard to say exactly how good he is. We know he is good, even very good, but how he compares to Hamilton and Alonso is harder to say. If i was a betting man, I suspect he'd be slightly slower in the same car.

So actually its all hypothesis, the only time I'm aware of that Hamilton and Vettel have raced the same car is on Top Gear. Seb heads the times by a fairly small margin 0.7 secs, however his lap was dry, Hamiltons was on a wet oily track and even Stig estimated that slowed him down by at least 2 seconds not by the 7 tenths that Vettel beat him by. In fact if you remove 2 seconds from Hamiltons time, he doesn;t just beat any other driver, he wipes the floor with them.

So what do we really know... Hamilton is naturally ferociously fast and has had temperament issues in the past, Alonso is more of a thinker and more like Prost in that respect, while still very fast. Vettel, might be very quick, but in truth we dont really know how he stacks up, except that he can be very petulant at times.

#3248 bourbon

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 00:22

Three best drivers in F1 currently, without any doubt and would and have been agreed on by pretty much all of the team bosses and great drivers of the past, and in no particular order.

Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel.

So what do we actually know about who is quicker?

1.) Alonso and Hamilton have raced the same car at the same time and we can make some judgements about that, Hamilton, just beat Alonso for points that season, Hamilton was in his rookie season and Alonso was clearly having issues while at Mclaren, so actually its hard to tell.

2.) Alonso matured significantly when he went to Ferrari and has gone up significantly in my estimations since then.

3.) Hamilton has had temperament issues, however 2012 he hasn;t put a foot wrong on the track and very few faux pas or issues off it.

4.) Seb is really the unknown. His teammate runs him closer than either Hamilton or Alonsos do and we don't really know how much advantage the RB has had for most of the season.

From observation and extrapolation we can conclude the following.

1.) over 1 flying lap, in the same car, Hamiltons raw natural talent would probably mean he was fastest by a small margin.

2.) over a race distance, now Hamilton has matured, assuming they were in the same car, I am far from sure who would win from the three.

3.) Seb is the unknown factor, because he hasn't raced against anyone of very high quality in the same car, its hard to say exactly how good he is. We know he is good, even very good, but how he compares to Hamilton and Alonso is harder to say. If i was a betting man, I suspect he'd be slightly slower in the same car.

So actually its all hypothesis, the only time I'm aware of that Hamilton and Vettel have raced the same car is on Top Gear. Seb heads the times by a fairly small margin 0.7 secs, however his lap was dry, Hamiltons was on a wet oily track and even Stig estimated that slowed him down by at least 2 seconds not by the 7 tenths that Vettel beat him by. In fact if you remove 2 seconds from Hamiltons time, he doesn;t just beat any other driver, he wipes the floor with them.

So what do we really know... Hamilton is naturally ferociously fast and has had temperament issues in the past, Alonso is more of a thinker and more like Prost in that respect, while still very fast. Vettel, might be very quick, but in truth we dont really know how he stacks up, except that he can be very petulant at times.


For me there are no unknowns. I already know exactly how good Sebastian is - just as I knew how good Hamilton was when he arrived. It really is not rocket science.

The method of waiting to see how they fare against teammates appears to be deeply flawed. Alonso lost to Hamilton, a pure rookie, and so if anything, Alonso proved that he cannot stand up to a challenge. Yet that experience is supposed to prove his value? How does that work? I know how good Alonso is from watching, no need for a direct comparison against 1 other person in a similar car.

So yeah, I know all I need to know about Sebastian to reach the conclusion I have above. He came in and broke all kinds of records and has definitively put his mark on the sport. For me, there is nothing left to determine about Sebastian in terms of his relative skill, only much more to come from him.

Edited by bourbon, 22 November 2012 - 00:55.


#3249 gillesthegenius

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:32

Three best drivers in F1 currently, without any doubt and would and have been agreed on by pretty much all of the team bosses and great drivers of the past, and in no particular order.

Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel.

So what do we actually know about who is quicker?

1.) Alonso and Hamilton have raced the same car at the same time and we can make some judgements about that, Hamilton, just beat Alonso for points that season, Hamilton was in his rookie season and Alonso was clearly having issues while at Mclaren, so actually its hard to tell.

2.) Alonso matured significantly when he went to Ferrari and has gone up significantly in my estimations since then.

3.) Hamilton has had temperament issues, however 2012 he hasn;t put a foot wrong on the track and very few faux pas or issues off it.

4.) Seb is really the unknown. His teammate runs him closer than either Hamilton or Alonsos do and we don't really know how much advantage the RB has had for most of the season.

From observation and extrapolation we can conclude the following.

1.) over 1 flying lap, in the same car, Hamiltons raw natural talent would probably mean he was fastest by a small margin.

2.) over a race distance, now Hamilton has matured, assuming they were in the same car, I am far from sure who would win from the three.

3.) Seb is the unknown factor, because he hasn't raced against anyone of very high quality in the same car, its hard to say exactly how good he is. We know he is good, even very good, but how he compares to Hamilton and Alonso is harder to say. If i was a betting man, I suspect he'd be slightly slower in the same car.

So actually its all hypothesis, the only time I'm aware of that Hamilton and Vettel have raced the same car is on Top Gear. Seb heads the times by a fairly small margin 0.7 secs, however his lap was dry, Hamiltons was on a wet oily track and even Stig estimated that slowed him down by at least 2 seconds not by the 7 tenths that Vettel beat him by. In fact if you remove 2 seconds from Hamiltons time, he doesn;t just beat any other driver, he wipes the floor with them.

So what do we really know... Hamilton is naturally ferociously fast and has had temperament issues in the past, Alonso is more of a thinker and more like Prost in that respect, while still very fast. Vettel, might be very quick, but in truth we dont really know how he stacks up, except that he can be very petulant at times.


According to your logic, Vettel would have proven himself to you, had he gone up against Vergne and lost the title to him (in a very close battle for it) this year? Or maybe he would have proven himself to you by losing the title to Webber in 2010 before thrashing him in 2011?

Alonso didnt prove anything in 2007. The only thing that came to light is that he wasnt strong enough to even hold up against a rookie.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 22 November 2012 - 02:40.


#3250 Misk

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:03

4.) Seb is really the unknown. His teammate runs him closer than either Hamilton or Alonsos do


In the last 3 seasons Vettel has outscored Webber by 13 podiums, 9 wins, and 254 points. Hamilton has outscored Button by -2 podiums , 3 wins and 10 points.

How has Webber run Vettel closer than Button has Hamilton?