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Sebastian Vettel Thread Part II


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#3501 SpartanChas

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:02

Numbers don't lie but they aren't everything. Schumacher could have won with Benetton in 96 but chose to go to Ferrari instead. How many others had such a good car so early in their careers? Fangio won with four different constructors ffs.

I like vettel but its early days yet. His career so far is very different from anyone else's.

Edited by SpartanChas, 27 November 2012 - 07:03.


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#3502 Sakae

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:24

Better than Fangio? Clark? Stewart? Lauda? Villeneuve? Rindt? Ascari? Senna? Prost? Piquet? Brabham? Surtees?

If you wanna go by metrics. Surtees is twice the driver Seb is. Vettel has never won a Motorcycle WDC...

I mean... REALLY. :rolleyes:

You sound like disgruntled Alonso's fan that is engaging in bombastic outbursts. I was always puzzled by statements when Clark won a race by 45 seconds lead; he was the greates driver, whereas when Vettel wins a race by 4.5 sec lead, that's only because he has a best car. Trashy logic in that. How anyone can compare achievements of different era without interjection of subjective bias is beyond my comprehension, thus I won't go into it, but what I do suggest, why not graciously admit that a season is over, somebody won, and next chance for all is merely hundred days away. Let's leave it at that.

#3503 DarthWillie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:45

Better than Fangio? Clark? Stewart? Lauda? Villeneuve? Rindt? Ascari? Senna? Prost? Piquet? Brabham? Surtees?

If you wanna go by metrics. Surtees is twice the driver Seb is. Vettel has never won a Motorcycle WDC...

I mean... REALLY. :rolleyes:


Agree with you there, there is no way of telling. Statistics can be bend every way around to fit any case.
Example: Stewart only needed 99 races to win 3 WDC, Vettel took 101, so Stewart is better HOWEVER
Stewart raced between 65 and 73 so needed 8 seasons for those 3 WDC, whereas Vettel only needed 5 seasons. Suddenly Vettel is superior :stoned:

At the end of the day we are just lucky to live in an era where drivers like Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel are around. It's just I prefer Vettel over the other 2 :p

#3504 gillesthegenius

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:46

Despite our disagreements in the past about Seb, you've hit the nail on the head there. He has joined an elite band of drivers, of that there is no doubt, but there is still a lot to before he even changes the minds of a lot of F1 fans who don't rate him so highly and think he still has things to prove (to be fair, I'm in that category).

Doesn't change what's happened, and Vettel is a 3x WDC whether people like it or not...


Of course there are always going to be doubts about him or Alonso or Hamilton or even Ayrton Senna. I dont have a problem with such doubts. We could always debate about such issues and agree to disagree if we cant convince one another. My problem is with people who leave no stone unturrned in their desperation to belittle everything Seb does.

In any case, what Seb should, god willing, do is simple. He just has to do the talking on track, like he has been doing over the last few years, and his performances will continue to speak for themselves.

#3505 PedroR

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:51

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#3506 EvanRainer

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:55

I'd like to point out that these whole trollish type ridiculous the-best-whatever kind of discussions started because a few weeks ago some Alonso fans (along with the usual Ham fanboys) seeing how Vettel was getting close to winning a third title, started panicking and PREEMPTIVELY started screaming "this doesn't prove Vettel is better! This proves nothing!". When there wasn't really any Vettel fan that came out claiming anything.

Of course that is because Vettel fans are few and far in between on this forum, let alone Vettel fanboys. And there isn't much hype in the media either. So don't cry about how people try to say Vettel is the best.

What annoys a lot of us Vettel fans is that we have to endure endless TDG type posts and then a lot of these people EVEN NOW won't even accept Vettel is ON PAR with Alonso and Hamilton, let alone better. And when pointing out to them that applying a lot of the same standards they do it makes Vettel best, we hear it.

Personally I always consider any claim of someone being "the best ever" ridiculous, especially when you have something that spans many decades. Anyone who follows and understands racing would know that it is impossible to really determine.

#3507 PedroR

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:01

Anyway, CONGRAT! to all Sebastian's FANs.
THIS boy did his Job very very well in the last races.

Enjoy!

#3508 Sakae

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:17

Of course there are always going to be doubts about him or Alonso or Hamilton or even Ayrton Senna. I dont have a problem with such doubts. We could always debate about such issues and agree to disagree if we cant convince one another. My problem is with people who leave no stone unturrned in their desperation to belittle everything Seb does.

In any case, what Seb should, god willing, do is simple. He just has to do the talking on track, like he has been doing over the last few years, and his performances will continue to speak for themselves.


What doubts? Vast majority of posters on this BB either staying out of it, or expressing doubts about Vettel. Forgive me for being confused about it, since what I would appreciate for anyone to explain to me how Hamilton's career at F1 compares with Vettel's, yet there are no doubts about him. How so? (Please spare me how Hamilton was already successful at the tender age of five or thereabout). Hamilton's one WDC was not much more worthy than Vettel's this year, whilst last year was nothing to brag about, running from one incident to another - yet it all doesn't matter, and it si being overlooked. In one British paper earlier this year while in London I read, that Hamilton is the most important person in F1.

Can you explain why Vettel is a subject of doubts, and what are those, whilst others do not? I do not wish to sound as picking up on your, but winter break is here, and I am hoping that maybe someone will show me a light where there is an objective difference. Hamilton can drive fast, but so is Vettel. Hamilton can overtake, but so is Vettel. Hamilton will not finnish a race when car lets him down, and so is Vettel. We can continue...

Edited by Sakae, 27 November 2012 - 09:18.


#3509 Kelateboy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:17

:up: well said.

Congrats to vettel, a much more entertaining season than last year!

Next year will be much more entertaining. Like this year, we will have 3 competitive teams (Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren) that could challenge for the victory and 2 dark horses in Mercedes and Lotus, which might be good enough for occasional wins.

Or Sebastian could run away with the title like he did in 2011, but I doubt it.



#3510 EvanRainer

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:32

What doubts? Vast majority of posters on this BB either staying out of it, or expressing doubts about Vettel. Forgive me for being confused about it, since what I would appreciate for anyone to explain to me how Hamilton's career at F1 compares with Vettel's, yet there are no doubts about him. How so? (Please spare me how Hamilton was already successful at the tender age of five or thereabout). Hamilton's one WDC was not much more worthy than Vettel's this year, whilst last year was nothing to brag about, running from one incident to another - yet it all doesn't matter, and it si being overlooked. In one British paper earlier this year while in London I read, that Hamilton is the most important person in F1.

Can you explain why Vettel is a subject of doubts, and what are those, whilst others do not? I do not wish to sound as picking up on your, but winter break is here, and I am hoping that maybe someone will show me a light where there is an objective difference. Hamilton can drive fast, but so is Vettel. Hamilton can overtake, but so is Vettel. Hamilton will not finnish a race when car lets him down, and so is Vettel. We can continue...


Exactly, it's the DOUBLE STANDARDS by some (not to be accused I am painting everyone) that is the problem.


#3511 Kelateboy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:36

Did anyone else think Webber was less than helpful to vettel on Sunday?

Squeezed him at the start when he could have really helped him out and squeezed him alter too (I forget when).

I like Mark as a guy but I thought it was pretty out of order given his teammate's position and wouldn't have been happy at all if kovi had behaved similarly in Brazil 08.

Webber had a bad start and rather than defending his positions against those behind him, he squeezed his teammate who was fighting for the championship. They got very close and Vettel had to break early into T1 comprimising his entry and exit out of that corner. It was obvious to me that Webber was not interested in helping his teammate. His action was inexcusable, and I would be interested to see if there are any repercussions from Red Bull.

Classless action from Webber. If he does not want to assist Sebastian, at the very least, stay out of Sebastian's way. And this came from somebody who wanted Button or Webber to win the last race of this season.

#3512 paulrobs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:24

Well done Vettel - that is some achievement to win three championshis on the bounce. Well done. You are one hell of a driver and who knows what your final record will be.

Please, however, stop your continual whinging about about other drivers and teams because you sometimes come across as a bit of a spoilt brat who thinks F1 is being run for your sole benefit and whenever you don't win it is always someone else's fault. A little bit of humility every now and then would do wonders for your reputation amongst drivers, team members and fans who are not your #1 admirers.

#3513 EvanRainer

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:30

Please, however, stop your continual whinging about about other drivers and teams because you sometimes come across as a bit of a spoilt brat who thinks F1 is being run for your sole benefit and whenever you don't win it is always someone else's fault. A little bit of humility every now and then would do wonders for your reputation amongst drivers, team members and fans who are not your #1 admirers.


:rolleyes:
Great example of the double standards we were talking about.

"continual whinging about about other drivers and teams because you sometimes come across as a bit of a spoilt brat who thinks F1 is being run for your sole benefit and whenever you don't win it is always someone else's fault"

Exaggerate much? Care to give us some concrete examples?

#3514 H2H

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:33

Well done Vettel - that is some achievement to win three championshis on the bounce. Well done. You are one hell of a driver and who knows what your final record will be.

Please, however, stop your continual whinging about about other drivers and teams because you sometimes come across as a bit of a spoilt brat who thinks F1 is being run for your sole benefit and whenever you don't win it is always someone else's fault. A little bit of humility every now and then would do wonders for your reputation amongst drivers, team members and fans who are not your #1 admirers.


As usually I would like to see facts backing up a statement like continual whinging. Arguably he does it much less so then other drivers which shall not be named here. The bit about humility would also need some explaining especially relative to other drivers which are not part of this thread.

In the end guys like Jake and many many others have been pretty consistent about his character:

However, Sebastian Vettel is now a member of a club with just three members - and deservedly so. His drives in Abu Dhabi and again in Brazil were masterful at times. And I can also tell you that off-camera he is engaging, honest and thoroughly likeable. I wonder how many titles he will win? When Mark Webber was his age he hadn't even made his F1 bow.



#3515 hijinx

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:16

Courtesy of Nicole

A great day for Huovinen

F1 | Turun Sanomat 00:27

Sebastian Vettel has once again a Finnish trainer beside him in his third WDC-party. Now it was Heikki Huovinen who got to follow from close the secrets of winning a F1-title instead of Tommi Pärmäkoski.
How much did the championship mean to Huovinen?

– Really much. This was a long year and we have been working a lot. It feels good to end the year with this final result...to continue reading, click here

#3516 paulrobs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:24

:rolleyes:
Great example of the double standards we were talking about.

"continual whinging about about other drivers and teams because you sometimes come across as a bit of a spoilt brat who thinks F1 is being run for your sole benefit and whenever you don't win it is always someone else's fault"

Exaggerate much? Care to give us some concrete examples?


Just an opinion based upon watching every race and interview and reading the features on the website and the magazines. I don't carry the facts around in my head, I only have an opinion based upon what I've read and seen.

I think he's one hell of a driver but I cringe whenever I hear him criticise because I don't think he needs to. Maybe my words were OTT and bound to inflame but I stand by my opinion that he comes across to me as a bit of a whinger when things don't go right and even occasionally when things do go right for him.

#3517 paulrobs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:34

As usually I would like to see facts backing up a statement like continual whinging. Arguably he does it much less so then other drivers which shall not be named here. The bit about humility would also need some explaining especially relative to other drivers which are not part of this thread.

In the end guys like Jake and many many others have been pretty consistent about his character:


I think it was a balanced post giving Vettel credit where it's due. My opinion is that he is a bit of whinger and isn't keen to offer praise of others and finds it difficult if he doesn't win but it's an opinion only and one that wouldn't be shared by everyone. No facts though, I can't look back through every interview over the last 3 to 4 years to support why I feel like this. I certainly have nothing against him and he's been amazing over the last three years.

#3518 plumtree

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:10

James Allen to a perennial anti-VET poster on his blog: "It’s a real shame because if you knew him, how down to earth he is, funny etc you would almost certainly like him as a person. The perception with VET is very different from the reality. Other drivers less so."

Mark Simpson (RBR mechanic) to Jacque's accusation: "It's amazing how F1 has beens can make comments on someone they don't know. #wedo"

... But there are rumblings in the paddock that, although acknowledging Vettel’s advantage, most people in F1 would prefer if Alonso triumphs.
"I don’t think so," Force India’s Nico Hulkenberg told Sport1. "Sebastian is very popular."
"I think it’s just the psychological games that are always there in a championship fight. Red Bull is a good team with a good driver and a good crew." (Link)


Courtesy of Nicole

A great day for Huovinen F1 | Turun Sanomat 00:27

Sebastian Vettel has once again a Finnish trainer beside him in his third WDC-party. Now it was Heikki Huovinen who got to follow from close the secrets of winning a F1-title instead of Tommi Pärmäkoski.
How much did the championship mean to Huovinen?

– Really much. This was a long year and we have been working a lot. It feels good to end the year with this final result...to continue reading, click here

Thanks for the heads up!

"It was a tough season. We believed all year long that we had a chance for this and worked hard to achieve it. The beginning was difficult but Sebastian proved his greatness and didn’t put his head in the bushes at any stage, on the contrary he lifted up the whole team and he had the energy to push forward day after day." :up:

Edited by plumtree, 27 November 2012 - 13:12.


#3519 mnmracer

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:18

I think it was a balanced post giving Vettel credit where it's due. My opinion is that he is a bit of whinger and isn't keen to offer praise of others and finds it difficult if he doesn't win but it's an opinion only and one that wouldn't be shared by everyone. No facts though, I can't look back through every interview over the last 3 to 4 years to support why I feel like this. I certainly have nothing against him and he's been amazing over the last three years.

Paul, I don't know who you support, but surely you can understand, even if not agree, that when there are many fans of Alonso making such statements, it feels kinda of rich coming from that side? How come all these people find the need and the energy to come and complain about Vettel, yet never bother to say a word about Alonso.

I think the way Vettel is never short of praise for his team and his engineers, is admirable.
Applauding Lewis crossing the line in Austin, shows he is not the bad guy he is made out to be.
He praised Massa when he regained himself.
Hülkenberg said as much that he is actually quite popular among a number of drivers.
I believe he even praised Alonso for his performance this year, something that has certainly not been returned.

Vettel seems very down to earth, but when things screw him over that he has no control over (mechanical, being run into), he just gets upset.
He's never shied away from saying he was simply not fast enough, but when he loses beyond his control, that's what grinds his gears.
I say, let him be. I very much prefer that to someone who claims to have made zero mistakes this year and all the time got everything his car had, even when beaten by his team mate.

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#3520 paulrobs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:28

Paul, I don't know who you support, but surely you can understand, even if not agree, that when there are many fans of Alonso making such statements, it feels kinda of rich coming from that side? How come all these people find the need and the energy to come and complain about Vettel, yet never bother to say a word about Alonso.

I think the way Vettel is never short of praise for his team and his engineers, is admirable.
Applauding Lewis crossing the line in Austin, shows he is not the bad guy he is made out to be.
He praised Massa when he regained himself.
Hülkenberg said as much that he is actually quite popular among a number of drivers.
I believe he even praised Alonso for his performance this year, something that has certainly not been returned.

Vettel seems very down to earth, but when things screw him over that he has no control over (mechanical, being run into), he just gets upset.
He's never shied away from saying he was simply not fast enough, but when he loses beyond his control, that's what grinds his gears.
I say, let him be. I very much prefer that to someone who claims to have made zero mistakes this year and all the time got everything his car had, even when beaten by his team mate.


But my post isn't motivated by anything other than what I see and hear myself from Vettel. I don't really care what Alonso's fans think of him or indeed anyone else. I also have praised Vettel on many occasions and did so again here. The trouble is people trawl this frum looking for any single negative comment. I repeat. What Vettel has sone in the last three yers is amazing, car advantage or not, whinging or not, he has been incredible. He is the guy to beat and as I've said elsewhere who knows what his record will be when he retires.

I accept what you have said above and I will certainly look next year and ask myself whether I'm being too hard on the guy.

#3521 EvanRainer

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:36

But my post isn't motivated by anything other than what I see and hear myself from Vettel.


Yet you admit you can provide no facts. So what are those things you see and hear but you can't tell us about? Maybe you should look to yourself and whether you are biased then?

I accept what you have said above and I will certainly look next year and ask myself whether I'm being too hard on the guy.


You really need to go back and read again what you wrote. here it is
"continual whinging about about other drivers and teams because you sometimes come across as a bit of a spoilt brat who thinks F1 is being run for your sole benefit and whenever you don't win it is always someone else's fault. A little bit of humility every now and then would do wonders for your reputation amongst drivers, team members"

Are you kidding me?

#3522 paulrobs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:45

Yet you admit you can provide no facts. So what are those things you see and hear but you can't tell us about? Maybe you should look to yourself and whether you are biased then?



You really need to go back and read again what you wrote. here it is
"continual whinging about about other drivers and teams because you sometimes come across as a bit of a spoilt brat who thinks F1 is being run for your sole benefit and whenever you don't win it is always someone else's fault. A little bit of humility every now and then would do wonders for your reputation amongst drivers, team members"

Are you kidding me?


I said I'm not going to trawl through interviews and find facts to support my opinion. I didn't say there wern't any. I stand by what I've said and I will be interested to see how he is through next year. End of...

#3523 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:45

We all know that Webber was way more of a hinderance than any help to Vettel.

What i'd like to know is how many points did Massa have to give up to Alonso to make the points battle closer than it would have been had Alonso been partnered by someone like Webber?

Does anyone know how many points Ferrari had Massa give up to Alonso?

Any math guys out there?

#3524 EvanRainer

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:48

I said I'm not going to trawl through interviews and find facts to support my opinion. I didn't say there wern't any. I stand by what I've said and I will be interested to see how he is through next year. End of...


You claim he does, and I quote, continual whinging and you can't even provide ONE example off the top of your head? wow.

Straight up question paulrobs, in your "impression" does Vettel whinge more or less than Alonso and Hamilton?

#3525 paulrobs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:53

You claim he does, and I quote, continual whinging and you can't even provide ONE example off the top of your head? wow.

Straight up question paulrobs, in your "impression" does Vettel whinge more or less than Alonso and Hamilton?


Just checking the facts to make sure my opinion is right on that one. It will take some time though because I'll have to go back a long way. Gee, I'd hate to get any future opinion wrong

#3526 EvanRainer

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 13:54

You are free to have any opinion of Vettel that you like and no one can stop you.

Here's a tip though. If you want to avoid riling up people maybe you should avoid exaggerating next time.

#3527 paulrobs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 14:02

I think I also said later that maybe my words were OTT. Glad to see that paranoia is just as strong over here as it is in the Alonso and Hamilton threads though.  ;)

I repeat what I said earlier - "Well done Vettel - that is some achievement to win three championshis on the bounce. Well done. You are one hell of a driver and who knows what your final record will be." :up:

Let's leave it there. :kiss:

#3528 EvanRainer

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 14:08

Mate, I assure you I am no fanboy. That does not mean however I am just going to leave any comment unchallenged. If you admit you were a bit OTT and want to leave it there that is fine.

The last thing I care about is lengthy internet debates to prove who has the largest internet-cock. :)

Edited by EvanRainer, 27 November 2012 - 14:08.


#3529 paulrobs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 14:18

Mate, I assure you I am no fanboy. That does not mean however I am just going to leave any comment unchallenged. If you admit you were a bit OTT and want to leave it there that is fine.

The last thing I care about is lengthy internet debates to prove who has the largest internet-cock. :)


I think I said maybe they were OTT. This is fact whereas your statement is your opinion of what I said.

Not sure where the fanboy thing comes from though. Where on earth did that come from.

#3530 EvanRainer

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 14:39

"continual whinging about about other drivers and teams because you sometimes come across as a bit of a spoilt brat who thinks F1 is being run for your sole benefit and whenever you don't win it is always someone else's fault. A little bit of humility every now and then would do wonders for your reputation amongst drivers, team members"

Continual whinging, spoilt brat, thinks F1 being run for his benefit, always someone else's fault when he doesn't win, no humility, bad reputation among drivers and team members.

And you are not sure you were over the top? And then you implied that we were being hypersensitive because we didn't just let this go and chose to respond.

And someone already proved you pulled part of that completely out of your ass (bad reputation among drivers and team members and you can't claim this is just your "opinion". either you know this is the case or you don't)

#3531 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 15:15

What doubts? Vast majority of posters on this BB either staying out of it, or expressing doubts about Vettel. Forgive me for being confused about it, since what I would appreciate for anyone to explain to me how Hamilton's career at F1 compares with Vettel's, yet there are no doubts about him. How so? (Please spare me how Hamilton was already successful at the tender age of five or thereabout). Hamilton's one WDC was not much more worthy than Vettel's this year, whilst last year was nothing to brag about, running from one incident to another - yet it all doesn't matter, and it si being overlooked. In one British paper earlier this year while in London I read, that Hamilton is the most important person in F1.

Can you explain why Vettel is a subject of doubts, and what are those, whilst others do not? I do not wish to sound as picking up on your, but winter break is here, and I am hoping that maybe someone will show me a light where there is an objective difference. Hamilton can drive fast, but so is Vettel. Hamilton can overtake, but so is Vettel. Hamilton will not finnish a race when car lets him down, and so is Vettel. We can continue...


Not a fan of Seb but I'm with you on this one mate. Total double standard to say there's absolutely no doubts about Lewis but there are doubts about Seb. I don't see how one comes to that realization.
Both have proved they're amongst the best of this era. No doubts anywhere in regards to that.

#3532 fatd

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 16:20

Not a fan of Seb but I'm with you on this one mate. Total double standard to say there's absolutely no doubts about Lewis but there are doubts about Seb. I don't see how one comes to that realization.
Both have proved they're amongst the best of this era. No doubts anywhere in regards to that.


I have no problem with people who think Hamilton for instance is a better driver than Vettel, but when one goes "whoa so awesome, he's blindingly quick!" when Hamilton's fast but then "oh look RB's 4tenth faster again, Vettel will walk this again" when Vettel's fast, it's just unfair really.
Unfortunately things like these will always happen when we view F1 as a driver-centric sport. It's hard to argue and try to come to agreement when it comes to doubts of a certain driver's pure pace, because F1 is always about man-machine, and it's almost impossible to separate the driver from the car. It all comes down to our own subjective view and personal preference; some people will dig deep to find anything that can justify their predetermined opinion, some people is fair enough to give credit where credit is due. Hopefully we'll see more of the latter in this forum :up:

#3533 choyothe

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 16:44

Senna's view



1) Senna made an absolute massive amount of gap to Di Resta in that braking zone, 15-20 meters is absolutely correct. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have made the corner without going plenty wide.

2) Vettel was actually already leaving space on the apex from going wide slightly, also how can anyone think Vettel was driving as if he didn't think anyone else was on the track? That was probably the only thing he was thinking of at that point after his start.

You may not think Senna was at fault but I can't understand how you would think Vettel should've seen Senna coming when he blasted past Di Resta during the braking zone from a huge way back.


BTW, I'm pretty sure Devero is an Alonso fan just trolling, I think I remember his posts from before. I apologize if I'm wrong of course.

#3534 Der Pate

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 16:52

It´s just a question of PR...Alonso always talks about, how fast the cars of the other drivers are...MSC did the same during his Benetton- and Ferrari-years regarding Williams...so the press always buys that and writes about Alonso as a superior driver (just like MSC)...and it´s so unfair, that the Red Bulls are that fast, so Vettel becomes champion...

Especially in F1 it´s not only about the race, but the work besides the track...for example: Lauda had never that raw-speed (after his accident) but won 2 championships by testing, testing, testing...so if some of you deny, that Vettel has the raw speed, we can agree, that he created a Red Bull, which suits him in the races...Alonso wasn´t capable of that...he even lost ground to his own team-mate...

#3535 joshb

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 18:52

Senna's view



1) Senna made an absolute massive amount of gap to Di Resta in that braking zone, 15-20 meters is absolutely correct. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have made the corner without going plenty wide.

2) Vettel was actually already leaving space on the apex from going wide slightly, also how can anyone think Vettel was driving as if he didn't think anyone else was on the track? That was probably the only thing he was thinking of at that point after his start.

You may not think Senna was at fault but I can't understand how you would think Vettel should've seen Senna coming when he blasted past Di Resta during the braking zone from a huge way back.


BTW, I'm pretty sure Devero is an Alonso fan just trolling, I think I remember his posts from before. I apologize if I'm wrong of course.


I still think it was more Sennas fault. The only thing against Seb was that he was turning in blind and could have left room like he did for Alonso at les combes last year. He maybe should've known turning in like that was risky.
Senna simply brakes too late considering how his inside line tightened the corner up.

#3536 tifosiMac

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 18:55

Senna and Vettel's fault combined. One shouldn't have dived down the inside and the other should have left room. Remember the arguments for Hamilton/Webber Singapore '11 and Hamilton/Maldonado '12. Racing incident caused by both drivers.

#3537 joshb

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 19:22

Senna and Vettel's fault combined. One shouldn't have dived down the inside and the other should have left room. Remember the arguments for Hamilton/Webber Singapore '11 and Hamilton/Maldonado '12. Racing incident caused by both drivers.


As Webber put it after Valencia 2010, it takes 2 to tango

#3538 1Devil1

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 19:31

It´s just a question of PR...Alonso always talks about, how fast the cars of the other drivers are...MSC did the same during his Benetton- and Ferrari-years regarding Williams..so the press always buys that and writes about Alonso as a superior driver (just like MSC)...and it´s so unfair, that the Red Bulls are that fast, so Vettel becomes champion...

Especially in F1 it´s not only about the race, but the work besides the track...for example: Lauda had never that raw-speed (after his accident) but won 2 championships by testing, testing, testing...so if some of you deny, that Vettel has the raw speed, we can agree, that he created a Red Bull, which suits him in the races...Alonso wasn´t capable of that...he even lost ground to his own team-mate...


rubbish. Schumacher never downplayed his cars he even said the Ferrari of 1995 was superb car and he doesn't understand why Berger and Alesi didn't win more this year. Please provide us some links. Schumacher was never that type of driver. It was more a media and fan hype which marked the ferrari as slow.

#3539 PARAZAR

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 19:44

http://blog.axisofov...l-him-what.html

Are there any German speaking fans on this board? Is that really what he said? Because if it is.... :eek:

Advertisement

#3540 apoka

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 20:03

http://blog.axisofov...l-him-what.html

Are there any German speaking fans on this board? Is that really what he said? Because if it is.... :eek:

There is some discussion in another thread starting here: http://forums.autosp...p;#entry6053615

#3541 Der Pate

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 20:05

http://blog.axisofov...l-him-what.html

Are there any German speaking fans on this board? Is that really what he said? Because if it is.... :eek:


Yes, he said that! But if you know this guy from RTL Kai Ebel, you can be sure, that he forced Vettel to that answer...I don´t know the english phrase, but in german you would say, that he put the words right into the mouth of Vettel...

#3542 apoka

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 20:08

Vettel confirms RB contract for 2014:

http://www.irishtime...4327142599.html



#3543 1Devil1

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 20:16

http://blog.axisofov...l-him-what.html

Are there any German speaking fans on this board? Is that really what he said? Because if it is.... :eek:


He said that and I don't see that Ebel did put this word's in his mouth. Ebel just asked Vettel what he thought about the incident. He was not referring to Ayrton Senna. Vettel came up up with that. I know someone would run over the comment of Vettel. It was no insult. So I don't see the fuss about it.

#3544 EvanRainer

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 21:19

Re. the Senna incident, as I already said in another post when I looked at it again it was clear to me what happened. Both Senna and Vettel didn't see each other due to DiResta being in the way. I don't put any blame on any of them, it was just an unfortunate accident. Saying Vettel turned in on Senna is a joke seeing how Senna, from Vettel's perspective came from nowhere and he couldn't have seen him, but after reviewing the footage Senna didn't "divebomb" or anything like that at all. And from his onboard you can see that Vettel is obscured behind DiResta until he appears when he turns in.

As I said it was an really strange three wide situation where the car in bewteen along with the conditions made the other two car not visible to each other.

#3545 PinkZepStones

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 21:25

Not a fan of Vettel in the slightest but cannot believe anyone thinks his and Sennas incident is his fault, at all, Vettel wouldnt of deserved to lose the title to an idiotic late braking fail from Senna.

#3546 stuck-in-first-gear

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 22:08

http://blog.axisofov...l-him-what.html

Are there any German speaking fans on this board? Is that really what he said? Because if it is.... :eek:



Now that is one dodgy website :lol:

#3547 PolarF1

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:43

To me it looks like the incident was Vettels fault, Senna was already beside him and he closed the door after going a bit wide. Just because he is fighting for the championship doesn't mean everybody has to move off track to avoid him.

#3548 EvanRainer

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:44

Vettel didn't see Senna. Are you really implying he decided to turn in on him and throw his championship away?

But you know, whatever fits your agenda.

#3549 H2H

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:07


It is really a bit hard to believe that Seb is already a V3ttel keeping in mind that at the same age Michael was just fighting his great 1994 season. Somebody might someday become a WDC at a younger age, but hardly a 2xWDC and a younger triple WDC is extremely unlikely.

#3550 Konsta

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:49

To me it looks like the incident was Vettels fault, Senna was already beside him and he closed the door after going a bit wide. Just because he is fighting for the championship doesn't mean everybody has to move off track to avoid him.

I totally disagree - Senna misjudged his braking point and just divebombed into SV´s side. Stupid of BS to think that he could outbrake ForceIndia that much.