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Sebastian Vettel Thread Part II


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#3601 superuser

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 07:50

It´s really funny to see, that some people (especially the Hamilton-fanboys, who might disappear after an useless season at Mercedes) try to convince others, that Vettel is rubbish although he won the championship 3-times, and that Hamilton should have won, although he wasn´t even in strike-distance...

Suddenly the championship-points are useless, but Vettel also won most of the GPs, had most of the best laps...Hamilton only won regarding the pole-positions, but I remember seasons in the 80s, when Piquet had most of the poles in 1984 and was nowhere in the championship or Senna in 1986/1987...


To be fair, Hamilton drove very good this year. It wasn't his fault that McLaren was so unreliable. I think that Hamilton is close to Vettel in speed but Vettel is better in consistency and especially in excellence under pressure.

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#3602 bourbon

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:01

In my opinion, there is so little between the top drivers that it amounts to nothing at all (when you consider that they vary in particular strengths). It is always the car + driver, so the best combination on the year will win. That includes all factors involving the car and the driver - and even luck when it comes to incidents and components outside of the control of the team.

#3603 EvanRainer

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:01

Excuse me.

Hamilton didnt challenge for the world championship because of the many errors his team made and the incidents he got involved in. Reliability wasnt his only problem. As a matter of fact, Seb also suffered from reliability issues. But RBR didnt make as many mistakes as Mclaren made. Mclaren, according to the same logic that people use to prove that Alonso and Hamilton won in inferior cars, had the best car this year and they messed up big time. Vettel capitalised on it and brought the title home with what could be called 'inferior machinery'. Deal with it without calling names.

Besides, what would you call yourself for suggesting that the same statement made by the same idiot was 'possible' in your earlier reply?


It's funny isn't. They've been using these ridiculous arguments all these years to back up their fantasy that Hamilton is a god and now those same arguments are slowly coming back to bite them in the ass, and they're not even getting it.

#3604 sailor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:20

Congrats Seb , for a brilliant race and season ...
... still cant believe that you are the 3X Champ !

#3605 jk

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:41

To be fair, Hamilton drove very good this year. It wasn't his fault that McLaren was so unreliable. I think that Hamilton is close to Vettel in speed but Vettel is better in consistency and especially in excellence under pressure.


I am not sure where this myth of reliability advantage comes from. Hamilton and Vettel each had two mechanical DNFs. Although it is true that Vettel only had one racing induced non-score while Hamilton had three.

The McLaren was a better car this year than the Red Bull. When they got it right, it had slightly better speed and was more racy with the better topspeed. And reliability was similar.

The difference was that McLaren had many weekends where they did not get their car dialed in. They suffered from balance issues or could not get the tires to switch on. They had races where they were needlessly slow, like Korea. Instead it was Red Bull who got their act together and won four in a row, while McLaren struggled. When McLaren did get it right at the end of the season, they proved to be the best.


My judgement is that the McLaren was the car to have. But Red Bull was the better team to be in. So I think Vettel did win the championship without having the best car. This was not because he outdrove Hamilton on track, but because Red Bull did a better job in the garage.

#3606 sailor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:42

Excuse me.

Hamilton didnt challenge for the world championship because of the many errors his team made and the incidents he got involved in. Reliability wasnt his only problem. As a matter of fact, Seb also suffered from reliability issues. But RBR didnt make as many mistakes as Mclaren made. Mclaren, according to the same logic that people use to prove that Alonso and Hamilton won in inferior cars, had the best car this year and they messed up big time. Vettel capitalised on it and brought the title home with what could be called 'inferior machinery'. Deal with it without calling names.

Besides, what would you call yourself for suggesting that the same statement made by the same idiot was 'possible' in your earlier reply?


Indeed.
Technically Vettel won with an inferior car - according to the definition of an inferior car people set in 2010 . Its just too good to be true/

People said he cant overtake - Bam 50+ overtakes in this season ! People said he cant deal with a car which is not starting on pole - He cuts thru field twice in the last races when the pressure is max ! People said he needed Webber to play rear gunner to win - well actually Webber played like he is going for his own title in the last races - Busted !

People said he cant win in inferior machinery , he actually won exactly in that (according to the standards people set while slating Seb 's earlier titles)

What s left is a 2 bit overtake under yellows which those same people cling on to now , whose long shot DT penalty -he would have made up for in 2 laps had it been given mid race and still be Champ .


#3607 choyothe

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:53

The incidents are not the same, Vettel left the apex unguarded, invited Senna in and then closed the door.
He gained a lot of ground because Seb was slower to make tihgter turn, and they touched almost side by side.
On starts once you go wide u stay there, or else u risk being hit, there are a lot of cars around.


No, they're not the same. Senna divebombed much more (I'm not saying this was what was wrong) and Vettel didn't have the privilege of seeing him before the last moment bc of di Resta.

Seriously? I have never seen two cars more evenly matched than McLaren and Red Bull in Austin. He got caught by a backmarker, without it Hamilton could never have passed. RBR had the fastest car that day equal with McLaren, Vettel was unfortunate.


Just because Hamilton couldn't get past Vettel without Karthikeyan doesn't mean the cars were equal, it rarely does in F1. Hamilton was able to stay in the dirty air for about 15 straight laps without once making a mistake and famously even catching Vettel in the high DF S1 corners.

#3608 H2H

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 14:40

Marko is writing three articles in the Welt

Part 1 - Didn't give a toss about hierarchies

Am deutlichsten wird das an einem Beispiel. Normalerweise ist ein junger Fahrer in einem Formel-3-Team ein Lehrling. Jemand, der viel zuhört und dann versucht, die Dinge so schnell wie möglich umzusetzen. Bei Sebastian war das natürlich auch der Fall. Aber im Vergleich zu den anderen Rennfahrern ging er regelrecht in die Offensive. Schon als 18-Jähriger kritisierte er Dinge und sagte, was verändert werden müsse, um schneller fahren zu können – und das in einer völlig abgeklärten Art und Weise.

Sebastian sprach die Dinge an, ohne Rücksicht darauf zu nehmen, dass Nachwuchsfahrer eine andere Rolle spielen sollten im Vergleich zu den Teamchefs. Doch die Rangordnung, wie sie in der Vergangenheit gewesen war, interessierte ihn überhaupt nicht. Er begann schon damals damit, zielorientiert und souverän zu arbeiten. Diese Entwicklung hält bis heute an. Das war genau das, was wir bei Red Bull von ihm erwartet hatten.


Pushed hard at an already very young age to make the car quicker and handled the technical side in a very mature fashion.

. Der Austausch zwischen mir und Sebastian war und ist immer sehr offen, ehrlich und zugleich sehr sachlich gewesen. Ich habe ihm immer dazu geraten, seine Ziele geradlinig zu verfolgen. Sein Talent als Fahrer war ohnehin von Anfang an atemberaubend. In jeder Fahrzeugkategorie, in der Sebastian antrat, seit wir von Red Bull an seiner Seiten standen, gehörte er auf Anhieb zu den Schnellsten.


Was always open, honest and very rational and in every category as rookie at once one of the fastest.

Part 2 - Vettel learns flying

Ein weiterer Pluspunkt von Sebastian ist, dass er sich auf der technischen Seite ebenso fordernd gegenüber den Ingenieuren und dem Team verhält, wie er es in Bezug auf sich und seine Leistung hält.

Sebastian hatte diese Eigenschaften zwar schon ganz zu Beginn seiner Karriere gezeigt. Aber was er seither leistet, ist ein großer Sprung nach vorn. Er war auch ein mitdenkender Teil des Teams. Er war irrsinnig zielorientiert, weil er wusste, wie er sein einmal gestecktes Ziel am schnellsten erreicht. Er dachte bei jedem Rennen darüber nach, wie er sich und das Team verbessern kann.


Für mich hat sich Sebastian längst zu einem absoluten Weltklassefahrer entwickelt. Das mag in Anbetracht von drei WM-Titeln sehr naheliegend klingen, ist es aber nicht. Sebastian hat sich, allein in den vergangenen zwei Jahren, noch einmal enorm gesteigert. Er macht kaum noch Fehler, ist mit seinen 25 Jahren noch routinierter geworden und fährt dadurch noch schneller, ohne mehr Risiko eingehen zu müssen. Er nutzt das Material noch weniger ab als vorher schon.


He pretty much has built strenght upon strenght and has long become an absolute worldclass driver. Today he drivers faster without having to take the same level of risks, makes almost no mistakes and nutures the material even better.


Especially part 1 reminds me of the story at Muecke Motorsport when the rookie came in after a day in the seater with a list what they can do better or the vist to Milton Keynes in 2005 or the trip to Pirelli in 2010. Plus his past teammembers (bar the teammates of course ;) ) all speak highly of him, which shows that on the human side it went pretty well.

I will post for a couple of weeks no longer on this forum :wave:

Edited by H2H, 29 November 2012 - 15:04.


#3609 Sakae

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 15:07

Marko is writing three articles in the Welt

Part 1 - Didn't give a toss about hierarchies



Pushed hard at an already very young age to make the car quicker and handled the technical side in a very mature fashion.



Was always open, honest and very rational and in every category as rookie at once one of the fastest.

Part 2 - Vettel learns flying





He pretty much has built strenght upon strenght and has long become an absolute worldclass driver. Today he drivers faster without having to take the same level of risks, makes almost no mistakes and nutures the material even better.


Especially part 1 reminds me of the story at Muecke Motorsport when the rookie came in after a day in the seater with a list what they can do better or the vist to Milton Keynes in 2005 or the trip to Pirelli in 2010. Plus his past teammembers (bar the teammates of course ;) ) all speak highly of him, which shows that on the human side it went pretty well.

I will post for a couple of weeks no longer on this forum :wave:

Hopefully you return. :)

#3610 Afterburner

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 15:49

Indeed.
Technically Vettel won with an inferior car - according to the definition of an inferior car people set in 2010 . Its just too good to be true/

People said he cant overtake - Bam 50+ overtakes in this season ! People said he cant deal with a car which is not starting on pole - He cuts thru field twice in the last races when the pressure is max ! People said he needed Webber to play rear gunner to win - well actually Webber played like he is going for his own title in the last races - Busted !

People said he cant win in inferior machinery , he actually won exactly in that (according to the standards people set while slating Seb 's earlier titles)

What s left is a 2 bit overtake under yellows which those same people cling on to now , whose long shot DT penalty -he would have made up for in 2 laps had it been given mid race and still be Champ .

I think it would be fair to say that he had the best car for all three of his titles; you don't get the WCC three times in a row without it. However, I also think he was the best driver in each year he won, too.

I will post for a couple of weeks no longer on this forum :wave:

See you around, mate--it's always nice to read your posts. :wave:

#3611 bourbon

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 16:10

CONGRATULATIONS SEBASTIAN VETTEL - THE YOUNGEST EVER TRIPLE WORLD DRIVER'S CHAMPION!!!!! :up: :D

Posted Image

V3TT3L HAT TRICK


Sebastian sends a message of thanks to fans: http://www.Sebastianvettel.com (or Sebastianvettel.de) - front page

Sebastian Vettel wins DHL Fastest Lap Award! : http://www.formula1....2/11/14130.html


Edited by bourbon, 29 November 2012 - 16:41.


#3612 Sakae

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:27

Is it statistical anomaly or a hard fact that Vettel a subject of large scrutiny than any driver since Schumacher? To be frank, I am perplexed by rate of new threads popping up in past several months, which are clearly aimed to find something wrong with this driver and thus diminish his accomplishments. Makes one wonder whether some people don't let emotions run too far off the normal course what is, or isn't acceptable. One simple explanation I can think off could be in dynamic balance of contributors to RC, with majority gravitating to Alonso and Hamilton, with lesser degree to Button or other drivers. Any other explanation (without really opening door to another tirade or litany)?

Edited by Sakae, 30 November 2012 - 07:28.


#3613 EvanRainer

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:40

I've said it before and I think we all know what it is. People were set in and ready to watch the era of Hamilton the god, the golden boy of F1 and the Alonso at Ferrari era. Fans split between them and became emotionally invested.

In comes Vettel to spoil the party. Takes all the youngest to do x records. Steals the limelight. Vettel derailed the Hamilton bandwagon and its occupants are PISSED.

No one really hates Vettel. It's just jealousy and an immature emotional response because he stole the limelight from their guys.

Edited by EvanRainer, 30 November 2012 - 07:41.


#3614 EvanRainer

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:45

Normally an amount of scrutiny is excusable. Often when someone becomes successful they become over hyped/overrated. So a backlash to that is understandable.

But there was no and there still isn't any of that for Vettel, I don't think at least. He's won 3 titles in a row and yet how many people you see going around proclaiming him "the driving god"?. Hell a lot of people on this forum still refuse to accept him even as EQUAL to Hamilton/Alonso.

#3615 sailor

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:18

I can safely admit now (that the protest window is over LOL ) that I was worried the whole race that Seb s car will not pass min weight regs looking at how much exhault parts and bodywork was flying .




#3616 eronrules

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:21

I can safely admit now (that the protest window is over LOL ) that I was worried the whole race that Seb s car will not pass min weight regs looking at how much exhault parts and bodywork was flying .


you didn't need to worry, the rule says if your car looses any parts due to collision or unavoidable action, you're car is allowed to add that weight/parts before weight check.

#3617 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:46

But there was no and there still isn't any of that for Vettel, I don't think at least. He's won 3 titles in a row and yet how many people you see going around proclaiming him "the driving god"?. Hell a lot of people on this forum still refuse to accept him even as EQUAL to Hamilton/Alonso.

Early this year, he was the EBD champion. His detractors can't use that against him anymore.


#3618 Zava

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:50

Early this year, he was the EBD champion. His detractors can't use that against him anymore.

coanda champion! :lol:

#3619 Crossmax

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:53

I can safely admit now (that the protest window is over LOL ) that I was worried the whole race that Seb s car will not pass min weight regs looking at how much exhault parts and bodywork was flying .

The team is allowed to replace the damaged parts before the car is weighted if I remember correctly.

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#3620 sailor

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:57

you didn't need to worry, the rule says if your car looses any parts due to collision or unavoidable action, you're car is allowed to add that weight/parts before weight check.


Ah silly and paranoid me. then ...
although my paranoia stemmed from the fact that the social media is slowly becoming such a powerful force that even a small issue started by an internet user can snowball into a big controversy as the yellow flag proved (although the original instigator wasnt a fan with a camera but Sky F1 , it was the internet users who took it to new hieghts)


Another thing about the bodywork which surprised me was that Vettel hardly lost any pace at all , he actually became much faster than Mark (may be he was 10 KG lighter body ) .
Case in point - Do these much halo'ed Newey parts really add anything to the pace at all? Didnt seem to - LOL





#3621 gillesthegenius

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:03

Ah silly and paranoid me. then ...
although my paranoia stemmed from the fact that the social media is slowly becoming such a powerful force that even a small issue started by an internet user can snowball into a big controversy as the yellow flag proved (although the original instigator wasnt a fan with a camera but Sky F1 , it was the internet users who took it to new hieghts)


Another thing about the bodywork which surprised me was that Vettel hardly lost any pace at all , he actually became much faster than Mark (may be he was 10 KG lighter body ) .
Case in point - Do these much halo'ed Newey parts really add anything to the pace at all? Didnt seem to - LOL


To be fair, his pace in the dry wasnt that good. It was in the wet that he made up a lot of time.

Besides, the irony of all this is that it was Alonso who was praying for rain, and Vettel who actually needed it at the end.

#3622 neutronstar

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:04

coanda champion! :lol:


Or Newey champion because as we all know, the only thing Seb needs to do is to turn the wheel every now and then. Adrian takes care of the rest.

#3623 LiJu914

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:05

Another thing about the bodywork which surprised me was that Vettel hardly lost any pace at all , he actually became much faster than Mark (may be he was 10 KG lighter body ) .
Case in point - Do these much halo'ed Newey parts really add anything to the pace at all? Didnt seem to - LOL


The performance loss due to the damage could be seen during the ~20laps, when the track was dry. He wasn´t really able to put Kobayashi under pressure and had worse tyre degradation than any car around him.
Ironically the much feared rain made it easier for him.

Edited by LiJu914, 30 November 2012 - 12:14.


#3624 gillesthegenius

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:07

Or Newey champion because as we all know, the only thing Seb needs to do is to turn the wheel every now and then. Adrian takes care of the rest.


Just like Clark was the Chapman champion, right?

#3625 nectar

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:09

Hearty congratulations to Sebastian, who pulled this off when the odds are against him.
I really felt for him when "also fighting Newey" comment was blurted.
To do it once, and twice, and now making it three times, no matter how fast the car is, it's really something special. People who watch this sport and are still not taking Seb seriously must be blind.
would be interesting to see what he and Red Bull can do next year.
:up:

#3626 Higli

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:41

Ironically the much feared rain made it easier for him.

Yes, but without the rain, it would have been a Hülkenberg/Hamilton/Button podium and the WDC anyway.


#3627 neutronstar

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:57

Just like Clark was the Chapman champion, right?


Right. In any other car he wouldn't have even been able to qualify. He was that overrated, just like Vettel.

#3628 eronrules

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:03

coanda champion! :lol:



Schmi's first WDC -- launch control champion
Alonso's first WDC -- Mass damper champion
Prost with williams -- Active suspension champion
J Button -- Double diffuser champion

... anyone got more to add???

:p

Edited by eronrules, 30 November 2012 - 13:07.


#3629 H2H

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:20

If you look at the reaction on YT the responses of the general public to his person are overwhelmingly positive. It seens more of an issue among some of the "true" motorsport fans, which have arguably partly already their favorite drivers which have to cope with a very young and very successfull competitor. Nothing strange there.

So now I away for good.

Edited by H2H, 30 November 2012 - 13:21.


#3630 windy1603

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:32

Or Newey champion because as we all know, the only thing Seb needs to do is to turn the wheel every now and then. Adrian takes care of the rest.



or the FIA *cough* Clarification *cough* Champion :lol:

#3631 sailor

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:38

or the FIA *cough* Clarification *cough* Champion :lol:

Correction "Non - Champion "

They threw everything at Seb but he conquered.

1> Senna spinning him around
2> Rain
3> On Demand SC for pulling Alonso close to the lead
4> Hulk taking Ham out
5> BS penalty for Hulk for losing the car for benefitting Alonso
6> Massa giving places back and acting as rear guard
7> Bad pit stop
8> Bad strategy
9> Non Working radio
10> Nothing worked - lets run though onboards for any possible infringements - actual or delusional.

Is it only me or this drive will go down in history as the greatest ever by a contender for the title duly winning the title.

#3632 gillesthegenius

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:51

Correction "Non - Champion "

They threw everything at Seb but he conquered.

1> Senna spinning him around
2> Rain
3> On Demand SC for pulling Alonso close to the lead
4> Hulk taking Ham out
5> BS penalty for Hulk for losing the car for benefitting Alonso
6> Massa giving places back and acting as rear guard
7> Bad pit stop
8> Bad strategy
9> Non Working radio
10> Nothing worked - lets run though onboards for any possible infringements - actual or delusional.

Is it only me or this drive will go down in history as the greatest ever by a contender for the title duly winning the title.


You forgot...
11) broken car that was slower than the saubers in the dry
12) horrible tyre degradation that forced him onto the slower harder tyre, which still couldnt outlast the softer ones of his competitors.

Not sure about the 'greatest ever' part. But still an epic drive. (MA)

Edited by gillesthegenius, 30 November 2012 - 13:53.


#3633 sailor

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:55

You forgot...
11) broken car that was slower than the saubers in the dry
12) horrible tyre degradation that forced him onto the slower harder tyre, which still couldnt outlast the softer ones of his competitors.

Not sure about the 'greatest ever' part. But still an epic drive. (MA)


Thanks ... Had that in mind but forgot to list coz there were so many to remember

Broken car was the biggest obstacle he overcame. Amazing drive!

Edited by sailor, 30 November 2012 - 13:55.


#3634 Higli

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:18

Broken car was the biggest obstacle he overcame. Amazing drive!

Don't forget that he was extremely lucky that he kept his four wheels on contact with Senna.

Edited by Higli, 30 November 2012 - 14:37.


#3635 LiJu914

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:23

,...
Is it only me or this drive will go down in history as the greatest ever by a contender for the title duly winning the title.



It´s only you.

#3636 Bruce

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:38

No one really hates Vettel. It's just jealousy and an immature emotional response because he stole the limelight from their guys.


I strongly disagree.

Your implication is that Vettel fans occupy some sort of virtuous moral high ground while the jealous and immature fans of other drivers froth and gnash in a stinking cesspit of their embittered "wrong-ness".

In fact, a scan of this bb will show that Vettel fans have hardly been shining examples of tact, good taste, or fairness - and I say this knowing that I can be be guilty of being tactless, tasteless and unfair.

But had Alonso beaten Vettel by 3 points this year, one of the first things I would have done is start a thread congratulating Vettel and his fans for the season he ran, because I know from personal experience how hard it is for a real fan to see their driver fail at the last hurdle. Where is that thread? I mean - even in the "Fernando Alonso" thread, there is precious little positive from anyone other than Alonso fans. Beyond that, other threads are full of bile for Alonso, witness the "will Alonso ever win another WDC" thread, or the (now closed) "Alonso claims that Grosjean...etcetc...cost him the title" thread. These threads are chock full of people slagging Alonso for being arrogant, a whiner, a cheater, a better politician than a driver, ungracious, etc etc ad nauseum. I wonder how Vettel fans would feel in these circumstances - aggreived? Then why are you surprised at this reaction from any other drivers fans?

"Immature emotional responses" are not limited to Alonso and Hamilton fans.


#3637 boldhakka

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:47

He is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of mental strength and wisdom. Except maybe Kimi.

#3638 EvanRainer

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:52

I strongly disagree.

Your implication is that Vettel fans occupy some sort of virtuous moral high ground while the jealous and immature fans of other drivers froth and gnash in a stinking cesspit of their embittered "wrong-ness".

In fact, a scan of this bb will show that Vettel fans have hardly been shining examples of tact, good taste, or fairness - and I say this knowing that I can be be guilty of being tactless, tasteless and unfair.

But had Alonso beaten Vettel by 3 points this year, one of the first things I would have done is start a thread congratulating Vettel and his fans for the season he ran, because I know from personal experience how hard it is for a real fan to see their driver fail at the last hurdle. Where is that thread? I mean - even in the "Fernando Alonso" thread, there is precious little positive from anyone other than Alonso fans. Beyond that, other threads are full of bile for Alonso, witness the "will Alonso ever win another WDC" thread, or the (now closed) "Alonso claims that Grosjean...etcetc...cost him the title" thread. These threads are chock full of people slagging Alonso for being arrogant, a whiner, a cheater, a better politician than a driver, ungracious, etc etc ad nauseum. I wonder how Vettel fans would feel in these circumstances - aggreived? Then why are you surprised at this reaction from any other drivers fans?

"Immature emotional responses" are not limited to Alonso and Hamilton fans.



Bruce I am sorry but you are making a vast amount of assumptions here. Lets see:

Your implication is that Vettel fans occupy some sort of virtuous moral high ground while the jealous and immature fans of other drivers froth and gnash in a stinking cesspit of their embittered "wrong-ness".


I am not implying that at all. How do you get that?

"Immature emotional responses" are not limited to Alonso and Hamilton fans.


Who said they are? The discussion here was about why people hate Vettel not why they hate Alonso or Hamilton. You also seem to imply that I am painting ALL Alonso and Hamilton fans as immature. Uhm no, only the ones that display an irrational hate for Vettel.

I don't understand where you got all this from, I was only discussing the people with an irrational hate for Vettel. Nowhere did I say anything about Vettel fans and that they are all virtuous. There are going to be stupid fanboys in every fanbase. But come on now, this forum isn't exactly full of Vettel fans now is it?

And I actually agree with you that there is a lot of Alonso mud slinging goign on as well but we are discussing Vettel here. And I don't believe you are suggesting all the Alonso haters are Vettel fans.

Edited by EvanRainer, 30 November 2012 - 14:53.


#3639 gillesthegenius

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:55

Talking about epic drives, what were the drives that clinched the title for Seb?

For me it was...

1) Bahrain, Victory
Having looked like running away with the race after clinching his first pole of the year, he had to deal with a mid race onslaught from Kimi Raikkonen, before running away with it in the final stint. The thought that those 7 extra points earnt by defensive driving of the highest calibre was probably the single most important factor that clinched the title for him, puts Bahrain as Seb's drive of the year for me.

2) Belgium, 2nd place
Sebastian's championship challenge looked like it was getting into its last legs when he failed to make it into q3 in a race where he needed to make good inroads into Fernando's 42 points lead at that time. But Fernando's first corner exit gave him hope. But he still had to find a way to maximise his result, in a car that refused to overtake in the DRS zone. So he decided to take his opponents one by one at the bus-stop chicane to work his way to a well earnt 2nd place after finding himself in 12th place after the first corner melee.

3) Abu Dhabi, 3rd place
Having been shunted to the back of the grid after being excluded from qualifying, Sebastian decided to start his race from the pit-lane in order make his car racier. And racier did his car look as Seb put behind a crash behind the safety car that relegated him to the back of the field, after he had worked his way upto tenth, to clinch a fabulous podium. Looking back, this was probably the race that clinched the title for him. In that regard Abu Dhabi 12 might be remembered in the years to come, in the same vein that Suzuka 88 is remembered.

4) Monaco, 4th place
After an admittedly poor qualy effort that saw him struggle to challenge for pole while his team mate did, Sebastian showed that he had loads of grit in him as he made use of an unconventional strategy to challenge for victory at one stage of the race, before having to settle for a valuable 4th place.

5) China, 5th place
A poor qualy effort and a poor start saw Seb languishing in 15th place after the first corner, before Sebastian showed his ability to fight by using a one stop strategy to be only 3 laps away from a hard fought 2nd place. But he had to settle for another valuable haul of 10 points after finding it impossible to hold on on his worn out tyres.

6) Brazil, 6th place
He went into the final race of the season knowing that he only needed a 4th place to secure his 3rd straight title. But what looked like a simple task snow balled into a herculean one as Seb found himself at the back of the field in a damaged car, that would lose a large chunk of performance in the dry and would force him onto the slower harder tyres that wouldnt even last as long as the softer ones used by the others, resulting in him having to pit for another set of hards just one lap before a downpour. But Sebastian kept his cool and made up a lot of ground in the wet to ensure that the title was his.

7) Suzuka, Victory
With Ferrari apparently playing a lot of dirty games in an attempt to create a conflict between himself and his team, Seb put his head down to grab pole, only to find Ferrari desperate in their attempts to somehow force the fia into giving Seb a penalty for supposedly blocking Fernando in qualifying. But as fate rolled out Fernando got taken out in the first corner while Seb went onto secure a commanding Grand Slam.

(MA)

Edited by gillesthegenius, 01 December 2012 - 16:28.


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#3640 encircled

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:59

The thing that will be likely forgotten IMO but was important for Sebastian's title 2012 fight was in Canada 2012 when he made a late pit stop, realizing the strategic error.

This enabled Sebastian to overtake Alonso with fresher tires, and therefore scoring 4th place instead of 5th. Had the positions been 4th Alonso, 5th Vettel, Alonso would have won the championship by a single point.

#3641 gillesthegenius

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:11

The thing that will be likely forgotten IMO but was important for Sebastian's title 2012 fight was in Canada 2012 when he made a late pit stop, realizing the strategic error.

This enabled Sebastian to overtake Alonso with fresher tires, and therefore scoring 4th place instead of 5th. Had the positions been 4th Alonso, 5th Vettel, Alonso would have won the championship by a single point.


How on earth did I forget that? What an important piece of quick thinking it was. Makes the title even more worthwile. (MA)

I think it was Seb's 2012 equivalent of Monza 2010, where he secured a forgotten 4th place, after making his only pit stop on the penultimate lap to ensure that he was always running in clean air after a transient loss of engine power had relegated him to 8th place.

#3642 gillesthegenius

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:15

He is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of mental strength and wisdom. Except maybe Kimi.


I wouldnt say so. Alonso probably has the wisest head going around. That wisdom is probably what took him so close to the title.

#3643 sailor

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:18

Don't forget that he was extremely lucky that he kept his four wheels on contact with Senna.


Yeah - it was extremely lucky , people DNF due to slightest of touches ... see Ham / Hulk

Senna and Seb had 2 good whacks and its almost a miracle he drove the full race. Destiny


It´s only you.

I knew someone will say that. But really - the more you think about it more amazing the whole thing looks

#3644 Higli

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:23

I wouldnt say so. Alonso probably has the wisest head going around.

A wise man would not twitter his wisdom througout the world.


#3645 Bruce

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:32


Who said they are? The discussion here was about why people hate Vettel not why they hate Alonso or Hamilton. You also seem to imply that I am painting ALL Alonso and Hamilton fans as immature. Uhm no, only the ones that display an irrational hate for Vettel.

I don't understand where you got all this from, I was only discussing the people with an irrational hate for Vettel. Nowhere did I say anything about Vettel fans and that they are all virtuous. There are going to be stupid fanboys in every fanbase. But come on now, this forum isn't exactly full of Vettel fans now is it?

And I actually agree with you that there is a lot of Alonso mud slinging goign on as well but we are discussing Vettel here. And I don't believe you are suggesting all the Alonso haters are Vettel fans.


That's the point though - I don't think that (most) people DO hate Vettel. But if you're an Alonso fan (or a Hamilton fan, or an XXX fan...) and you come on the bb after the race and what you see is a combination of self-congratulation and slagging for others, you are likely to be less positive than otherwise.

Heck - I came on after watching the race (watched it recorded so I was late) and the first thing I was going to do, in spite of my disappointment for Alonso was to put a note of congratulation in this thread. But, after reading some of the posts about Alonso, Senna and others (in other threads) the best "congratulations" I could muster for the "congratulations Seb!" thread was the following;

"meh".

That "meh" was not a real reaction to Seb and his season - it was a reaction to the negative and derisory tone I found at the bb.

The "big" thing for me to do would have been to congratulate Seb on a fine year - but i found myself unwilling to do so at that time (I did later, I believe). The bb may NOT be chock full of Vettel fans - that is likely because he is not driving for a historic team or marque - if he were in Ferrari or McLaren or even Lotus or Mercedes I suspect that the feeling would be different. Vettel "HATERS"? I suppose there are some - but I think most of the negative comments about Vettel at present are not coming from those who "hate" vettel - I suspect that they are in large part a reflection of the negativity and bile for other drivers on this bb at present.

There's a "chicken and egg" thing to this too... so I'm not suggeting the bad tone on the web at present is purely the fault of Vettel fans - but of course they are now, in the ascendant.


#3646 Afterburner

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:33

I've said it before and I think we all know what it is. People were set in and ready to watch the era of Hamilton the god, the golden boy of F1 and the Alonso at Ferrari era. Fans split between them and became emotionally invested.

In comes Vettel to spoil the party. Takes all the youngest to do x records. Steals the limelight. Vettel derailed the Hamilton bandwagon and its occupants are PISSED.

No one really hates Vettel. It's just jealousy and an immature emotional response because he stole the limelight from their guys.

I'm so tired of reading 'why is everyone against my driver' posts or 'if this were to happen to so-and-so, nobody would lift a finger'. Get used to it. It's called life. Feeling like your favourite is being persecuted all the time is only going to lead to you having an unenjoyable time here. Some people are irrationally prejudiced. Deal with it.

(Nothing against you in particular EvanRainer; just using your post as an example.)

Correction "Non - Champion "

They threw everything at Seb but he conquered.

1> Senna spinning him around It was partly his fault.
2> Rain
3> On Demand SC for pulling Alonso close to the lead Are you kidding me? That was more than warranted. Alonso probably wasn't the only one who asked for it, too.
4> Hulk taking Ham out This had no impact on Seb's race whatsoever.
5> BS penalty for Hulk for losing the car for benefitting Alonso Warranted or not, this also had no direct impact on Seb's race.
6> Massa giving places back and acting as rear guard If anything, this was a benefit for Vettel--Massa held up the field for him quite nicely in the first few laps.
7> Bad pit stop
8> Bad strategy
9> Non Working radio
10> Nothing worked - lets run though onboards for any possible infringements - actual or delusional. He was very lucky to continue after Senna hit him, which more than makes up for this alleged collection of bad luck.

Is it only me or this drive will go down in history as the greatest ever by a contender for the title duly winning the title.

Those are the only things he really had to put up with. The rest are imagined hazards that had no actual impact on his performance or overall result. He knew where he had to get, and he got there.

Greatest drive ever by a contender for the title duly winning the title? Surely not--maybe one of the best, but certainly not the best. One of the best drives this year, though, absolutely. No need to oversell it, because it sells itself.

#3647 gillesthegenius

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:38

Yeah - it was extremely lucky , people DNF due to slightest of touches ... see Ham / Hulk

Senna and Seb had 2 good whacks and its almost a miracle he drove the full race. Destiny


Thats the word.

I knew someone will say that. But really - the more you think about it more amazing the whole thing looks


Thats true. When he was on that run of four wins, something inside of me didnt want to see Seb just coast to the title. And Abu Dhabi probably made that wish come true. But Brazil was almost too much. Imho Seb's title probably got enrichened significantly by those two races. (MA)

#3648 sailor

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:50

Those are the only things he really had to put up with. The rest are imagined hazards that had no actual impact on his performance or overall result. He knew where he had to get, and he got there.

Greatest drive ever by a contender for the title duly winning the title? Surely not--maybe one of the best, but certainly not the best. One of the best drives this year, though, absolutely. No need to oversell it, because it sells itself.


What are you on about?

I am not arguing if Vettel made mistakes or not. Or a certain situation was his own making.
I am saying things happened in the race which he had to deal with. Maybe his own making but the point is how he coped with all these lil points to come thru in the end.

Rain - wasnt ideal for Vettel and threatened his chances even before race start as it favors the Ferraris Although it proved to be great equaliser when his car was not able to even cope with the Saubers.

Webber compromising his start only hampered his title bid - indirectly leading to the shunt.

Senna & Broken Car (even if his own making) did not make his race easier . Did it?

SC to close the field putting Alonso in strike distance from being 1 min behind - did put his title under threat . No? I m fairly sure Alonso s radio message "in English" was meant for Charlie.

Ham DNF coming together meant he won 1 place but Alonso gained 1 "higher value" place - thus threatening the title

Hulk Penalty (even tho it was racing incident) only helped Alonso because it promoted him one place.

Pit Stop strategy and Wet tyre comedy didnt help and almost lost him the title

RAdio not working cant be of help

It was a drive against adversities almost every other lap. Even if you think Seb was to partly or fully blame for teh situation he found himself in - its still amazing.
And therefore I think that this drive will go down history as one of the amazing drives ever for a successful title bid. Its ridiculously gritty, awesome , somewaht clumsy and finally LUCKY all at the same time.

Edited by sailor, 30 November 2012 - 16:01.


#3649 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 16:16

What are you on about?

I am not arguing if Vettel made mistakes or not / or a certain situation was his own making.
I am saying things happened in the race which he had to deal with? Maybe his own making but the point is how he coped with all these lil points to come thru in the end.

Rain - wasnt ideal for Vettel and had scuppered his chances a lot. Although it proved to be great equaliser when his car was not able to cope with Saubers.
Webber compromising his start only hampered his title bid - indirectly leading to the shunt.
Senna & Broken Car (even if his own making) did not make his race easier . Did it?
SC to close the field putting Alonso in strike distance from being 1 min behind - did put his title under threat . No? I m fairly sure Alonso s radio message "in English" was meant for Charlie.
Ham DNF coming together meant he won 1 place but Alonso gained 1 "higher value" place - thus threatening the title
Hulk Penalty (even tho it was racing incident) only helped Alonso because it promoted him one place.
Pit Stop strategy and Wet tyre comedy didnt help and almost lost him the title
RAdio not working cant be of help

It was a drive against adversities almost every other lap. Even if you think Seb was to partly or fully blame for teh situation he found himself in - its still amazing.
And therefore I think that this drive will go down history as one of the amazing drives ever for a successful title bid.

This was without a doubt, the most memorable race of the year.

1. His teammate fought him hard into T1, to the point of squeezing him off-track. He lost a few places and his championship contender blitzed past him and his teammate on the outside.

2. He made a mistake into T4. Kimi nearly collected him. Senna came from 2 car back and braked really late. Vettel was blind-sided. I'd say a racing incident with both drivers to blame. The damage looked terminal.

3. He passed Kobayashi, Vergne and an HRT driver in the section where I originally thought had blinking yellow lights. Luckily there were green flags and/or yellow/red lights on all occasions upon further scrutiny.

4. The rain saved him. The damaged car had pace in the wet but totally useless in the dryer condition.

5. Red Bull made the biggest pit-stop mistake of the year. While running 7th and Alonso 4th, Red Bull needed to only mirror Alonso's move. They called him in 1st and changed him to mediums. A lap later it rained harder.

6. He pitted again but lost more time as the team was not ready for him. Radio issue.

7. Luckily, it rained harder, and his car became competitive again. Lo and behold, Schumi did not challenge him for 6th.

8. Luckily Button did not break down. Otherwise, I don't know whether Red Bull can get Webber to retire from his podium position.

Is he lucky or what! Not that I am complaining.... :D

#3650 bourbon

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 16:32

3

Sebastian Vettel, You Are The World Champion! You Are The Man! :up: