Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 13 votes

Sebastian Vettel Thread Part II


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
3900 replies to this topic

#3651 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • In the running for best OP of 2014

  • 3,371 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 30 November 2012 - 16:39

Rain - wasnt ideal for Vettel and threatened his chances even before race start as it favors the Ferraris Although it proved to be great equaliser when his car was not able to even cope with the Saubers.

Rain was something he had to cope with--I never contested that. It was so easy to make a mistake in those conditions, so easy to throw it all away, and when everyone else was slipping and sliding off the track, we never saw Vettel make an error, even with a damaged car. A credit to him.

Webber compromising his start only hampered his title bid - indirectly leading to the shunt.

I don't think it's fair to count this one as contributing to the difficulty of the race. He always has to fight Webber--this race was no exception. Other drivers might not have teammates that challenge them, but just because Seb does isn't something that makes it special in my view, because every driver should in my opinion.

Senna & Broken Car (even if his own making) did not make his race easier . Did it?

Of course not. But if he had decided to give up the position and had not damaged his car--rightly or wrongly--I think it's very likely he might've even won the race rather than just finishing sixth. In hindsight, it was a mistake--one that could be attributed to him. You make your own luck, as they say, so in retrospect this was more a case of him making things harder on himself than they could've been, in my opinion. Full credit to him for coming back from his mistake, though.

SC to close the field putting Alonso in strike distance from being 1 min behind - did put his title under threat . No? I m fairly sure Alonso s radio message "in English" was meant for Charlie.

It did, but this didn't directly impact him. Seb always says that he drives his own race regardless of what everyone else is doing. Do you think it unreasonable that his goal was probably to finish fourth regardless of whatever happened in the race? That being his goal, this helped him get closer to fourth more than it hurt him at the time, no?

Plus, we don't know that Alonso was the only one calling for an SC--Rosberg suffered a puncture as a result of the debris and at one point Vettel himself was calling out the locations of debris on track. The SC was an inevitability given the track conditions, so unlucky or not, I don't think it's fair to count it as something that added to the difficulty of his race--especially considering that it helped him get closer to fourth place than he was previously.

Ham DNF coming together meant he won 1 place but Alonso gained 1 "higher value" place - thus threatening the title

Hulk Penalty (even tho it was racing incident) only helped Alonso because it promoted him one place.

Again, Seb drives his own race. These incidents had little impact on his position or overall goal--it only made things look harder from a spectator's perspective because they directly benefitted Alonso. He was fighting to get as close to the front as he possibly could've--this didn't change that motive or the difficulty of achieving it.

Pit Stop strategy and Wet tyre comedy didnt help and almost lost him the title

RAdio not working cant be of help

These did make his race more difficult. They were shortcomings of the team that he had to account for, so they do contribtue to the magnitude of his drive, in my opinion.

It was a drive against adversities almost every other lap. Even if you think Seb was to partly or fully blame for teh situation he found himself in - its still amazing.
And therefore I think that this drive will go down history as one of the amazing drives ever for a successful title bid. Its ridiculously gritty, awesome , somewaht clumsy and finally LUCKY all at the same time.

I don't disagree that it was an amazing drive--I just disagree with some of the things that you counted as contributing to the spectacle, difficulty, or otherwise 'thrilling' aspects of Seb's race. It's just my opinion that some of these things had no overall effect on his goal to finish fourth or better, and therefore weren't truly things that contributed to the difficulty of the race. Personally, my favourite part was how he was lapping one full second quicker than anyone else with a damaged car in tricky conditions towards the end of the race. That takes some serious talent. :D

Sebastian Vettel, You Are The World Champion! You Are The Man! :up:

One of my favourite radio sound-bites since I've been watching. :)

Advertisement

#3652 sailor

sailor
  • Member

  • 585 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 30 November 2012 - 16:58

^^

Even if he was driving his own race with a target to finish 4th , things like 1st SC which allowed Alonso within a few secs of leaders, indirectly leading to Ham Hulk clash again benefitting Alonso's title bid did have an indirect effect on Vettel.

Vettel could have coolly cruised to points position of 9th if he was sure that Alonso is finishing 4th at best with Button, Hulk and Ham on podium. The SC and its various effects put pressure on him to push harder to get to that 6th position

#3653 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • In the running for best OP of 2014

  • 3,371 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 30 November 2012 - 17:05

^^

Even if he was driving his own race with a target to finish 4th , things like 1st SC which allowed Alonso within a few secs of leaders, indirectly leading to Ham Hulk clash again benefitting Alonso's title bid did have an indirect effect on Vettel.

Vettel could have coolly cruised to points position of 9th if he was sure that Alonso is finishing 4th at best with Button, Hulk and Ham on podium. The SC and its various effects put pressure on him to push harder to get to that 6th position

True, but I don't think pressure has ever really been a problem for Seb--at least not in the way it has been for some other drivers. ;)

#3654 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,285 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 30 November 2012 - 17:06

Talking about epic drives, what were the drives that clinched the title for Seb?

(MA)


All of them where he scored technically but...

Spa- Looked grim after qualy, only slightly less so after 1 lap. Drove like a boss to pass despite no top speed- saving all his KERS for the run to the Bus stop.

Abu Dhabi- you just don't go from 24th to 3rd. Could even have won it had Button not defended so well for as long as he did

Brazil- Under the most extremem pressure, driving a damaged car very fast in slippery/wet conditions. Despite everything being against him, he made it work.

Australia- After the doubters were out in force after qualy, he nailed the race. Take that, 2nd place, and may have got Lewis anyway.

Monaco was a good save, as was China

Bahrain- got the season off to a flyer

Singapre- got him back in it

And a big heads up to the bloke who made THAT late strategy call in Canada. Rescued P4 when he may not have got points otherwise.

#3655 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,285 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 30 November 2012 - 17:07

How on earth did I forget that? What an important piece of quick thinking it was. Makes the title even more worthwile. (MA)

I think it was Seb's 2012 equivalent of Monza 2010, where he secured a forgotten 4th place, after making his only pit stop on the penultimate lap to ensure that he was always running in clean air after a transient loss of engine power had relegated him to 8th place.


Yes, Canada was almost as much of the unsung hero as Monza 2010 was

#3656 gillesthegenius

gillesthegenius
  • Member

  • 2,534 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 30 November 2012 - 17:35

All of them where he scored technically but...

Spa- Looked grim after qualy, only slightly less so after 1 lap. Drove like a boss to pass despite no top speed- saving all his KERS for the run to the Bus stop.

Abu Dhabi- you just don't go from 24th to 3rd. Could even have won it had Button not defended so well for as long as he did

Brazil- Under the most extremem pressure, driving a damaged car very fast in slippery/wet conditions. Despite everything being against him, he made it work.

Australia- After the doubters were out in force after qualy, he nailed the race. Take that, 2nd place, and may have got Lewis anyway.

Monaco was a good save, as was China

Bahrain- got the season off to a flyer

Singapre- got him back in it

And a big heads up to the bloke who made THAT late strategy call in Canada. Rescued P4 when he may not have got points otherwise.


Australia was impressive too. The move on Rosberg that allowed him to pursue the Mclarens was just gold.

But Singapore, for me, has been the least impressive of Seb's 26 victories to date. So I wouldnt include it in my list.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 30 November 2012 - 18:39.


#3657 apoka

apoka
  • Member

  • 3,522 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 30 November 2012 - 18:34

I strongly disagree.

Your implication is that Vettel fans occupy some sort of virtuous moral high ground while the jealous and immature fans of other drivers froth and gnash in a stinking cesspit of their embittered "wrong-ness".

In fact, a scan of this bb will show that Vettel fans have hardly been shining examples of tact, good taste, or fairness - and I say this knowing that I can be be guilty of being tactless, tasteless and unfair.

But had Alonso beaten Vettel by 3 points this year, one of the first things I would have done is start a thread congratulating Vettel and his fans for the season he ran, because I know from personal experience how hard it is for a real fan to see their driver fail at the last hurdle. Where is that thread? I mean - even in the "Fernando Alonso" thread, there is precious little positive from anyone other than Alonso fans. Beyond that, other threads are full of bile for Alonso, witness the "will Alonso ever win another WDC" thread, or the (now closed) "Alonso claims that Grosjean...etcetc...cost him the title" thread. These threads are chock full of people slagging Alonso for being arrogant, a whiner, a cheater, a better politician than a driver, ungracious, etc etc ad nauseum. I wonder how Vettel fans would feel in these circumstances - aggreived? Then why are you surprised at this reaction from any other drivers fans?

"Immature emotional responses" are not limited to Alonso and Hamilton fans.

Alonso did have a great season and some fans (including me) went over to the Alonso thread and congratulated him. However, there were quite a few mind games played in the last part of the season, which could be the reason why there is still some negativity. It may take a couple of years until most people see the WDC battle 2012 as a great fight between two excellent drivers and great champions.


#3658 apoka

apoka
  • Member

  • 3,522 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 30 November 2012 - 18:44

All of them where he scored technically but...

Spa- Looked grim after qualy, only slightly less so after 1 lap. Drove like a boss to pass despite no top speed- saving all his KERS for the run to the Bus stop.

Abu Dhabi- you just don't go from 24th to 3rd. Could even have won it had Button not defended so well for as long as he did

Brazil- Under the most extremem pressure, driving a damaged car very fast in slippery/wet conditions. Despite everything being against him, he made it work.

Those 3 races were really intense - after 2011 it's hard to believe that he had 3 such "come through the field" nail biters in a single season and needed almost every point he could squeeze out of them in the end. My favourite is Spa, because the passes there required thinking "out of the box" and took some skill to master.

Edited by apoka, 30 November 2012 - 18:45.


#3659 EvanRainer

EvanRainer
  • Member

  • 1,364 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 30 November 2012 - 19:11

That's the point though - I don't think that (most) people DO hate Vettel. But if you're an Alonso fan (or a Hamilton fan, or an XXX fan...) and you come on the bb after the race and what you see is a combination of self-congratulation and slagging for others, you are likely to be less positive than otherwise.


That's my point as well. I don't think they hate them either. He annoys them (by winning) but they don't understand why. (SOME people ffs, I didn't say all or even most)

As I said in another thread, it annoys me as well when Hamilton wins for various reasons, or if you want it would annoy me if Alonso had won the championship, only because I was rooting for Vettel if not for other reasons.

But the point is I don't let that translate into personal dislike for the drivers themselves. I don't hate Hamilton and Alonso. I don't go around calling them petulant, arrogant and smug and anyone who does is a freaking idiot as I think they are when they do for Vettel. (and once again I'm not saying this doesn't happen for those drivers it's just Vettel we are discussing here)

Advertisement

#3660 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:04

I'm so tired of reading 'why is everyone against my driver' posts or 'if this were to happen to so-and-so, nobody would lift a finger'. Get used to it. It's called life. Feeling like your favourite is being persecuted all the time is only going to lead to you having an unenjoyable time here. Some people are irrationally prejudiced. Deal with it.

(Nothing against you in particular EvanRainer; just using your post as an example.)


Those are the only things he really had to put up with. The rest are imagined hazards that had no actual impact on his performance or overall result. He knew where he had to get, and he got there.

Greatest drive ever by a contender for the title duly winning the title? Surely not--maybe one of the best, but certainly not the best. One of the best drives this year, though, absolutely. No need to oversell it, because it sells itself.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, and while I am happy about his WDC, I could not make such claims about Vettel's year-end races due to lack of relevant data needed to perform objective comparative analyses, thus subjective perceptions have to do. I am curious then which one in your mind was a greater individual achievement? If you want to shoot down Vettel's performance, explanation in support of your rationale could be helpful for me to understand it.

#3661 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,644 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:42

Did I mention....


YABADABADOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

CELEBRATION STILL GOING STRONG FOR OUR YOUNGEST EVER TRIPLE WORLD CHAMPION...AND ON THE TROT TOO!!!

RINGADINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!


:up: :clap: :cool: :p


Edited by bourbon, 01 December 2012 - 05:43.


#3662 choyothe

choyothe
  • Member

  • 2,312 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:04

You are of course entitled to your opinion, and while I am happy about his WDC, I could not make such claims about Vettel's year-end races due to lack of relevant data needed to perform objective comparative analyses, thus subjective perceptions have to do. I am curious then which one in your mind was a greater individual achievement? If you want to shoot down Vettel's performance, explanation in support of your rationale could be helpful for me to understand it.


To be fair, saying Vettel's drive from a contender in a deciding race wasn't the greatest in history of F1 is hardly shooting it down. It was a great race and fight highlighting his mental strength more than anything.

#3663 Nobody

Nobody
  • Member

  • 1,412 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:51

Well done to Vettel.

He is a very deserving champion, I think the last race reflected the championship overall.
Vettel did everything he could, AND, most importantly, drove like a champion in the races where the onus was on him to grab the opportunity and capitalise, very much like Alonso did at the start of the season, but seemed to run out of steam in the end with Ferrari's car dev strategy.

He's maturing as a driver and that's great news for his fans.

#3664 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:52

To be fair, saying Vettel's drive from a contender in a deciding race wasn't the greatest in history of F1 is hardly shooting it down. It was a great race and fight highlighting his mental strength more than anything.

Perhaps you are correct over the language used in my post, but still, there was a definite judgement delivered by a poster, and I am curious about bases for it. To be sure there is no misunderstanding where I stand, then I must admit having no clue whether it were Vettle’s best couple of races in F1, and how they slot into history, because I have no clear understanding how one rates these things without kicking in some subjectivity. There are a lot of people on this board who do reject FiA ratings as a sole indicator of achievements, so, what is left then perceptions?

Edited by Sakae, 01 December 2012 - 08:53.


#3665 hijinx

hijinx
  • Member

  • 626 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 01 December 2012 - 14:56

Some of you may be interested in this article: Cheers!

Who's Better: Vettel or Alonso?

Translated by Levi

Original author: Victor Martins

8 Nov 2012

A championship that’s going to have a loser between Fernando Alonso and Sebastian Vettel rises the doubt that looked eternal when comparing Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher – thankfully so. Now that the German engaged 7th gear on his way to his third title, the rivals claim that the pavement to the German’s glory is made by Adrian Newey’s ingenious machine as well as luck. Being that Vettel is equally a genius and doesn’t owe anything to Alonso in terms of talent...Read the rest here

Edited by hijinx, 01 December 2012 - 15:03.


#3666 CrucialXtreme

CrucialXtreme
  • Member

  • 4,014 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 01 December 2012 - 15:25

Those 3 races were really intense - after 2011 it's hard to believe that he had 3 such "come through the field" nail biters in a single season and needed almost every point he could squeeze out of them in the end. My favourite is Spa, because the passes there required thinking "out of the box" and took some skill to master.


I think Abu Dhabi was his best race. He was totally blindsided by the fuel issue which obviously wasn't his fault. RB were smart to incur an additional penalty to work on the car & change the setup. That was the only way the car could have came from the rear to the podium. Yes there were some SC's in AD but to come from dead last to 3rd is remarkable. Best drive of the year.



#3667 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,619 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 01 December 2012 - 15:32

I think Abu Dhabi was his best race. He was totally blindsided by the fuel issue which obviously wasn't his fault. RB were smart to incur an additional penalty to work on the car & change the setup. That was the only way the car could have came from the rear to the podium. Yes there were some SC's in AD but to come from dead last to 3rd is remarkable. Best drive of the year.


I think its one of Vettels best races (maybe best) in his career and ultimately the race which won him his 3rd WDC title. I have to say that every season in F1 Vettel seems to get better.

I recall 2009., I wasn't really impressed - he had a great car, made lots of mistakes and ultimately underperformed a bit. In 2010. he won his first title, and this was already impressive given that RBR did better job with Webber overall. However, at that point, I wasn't really sure if he'll ever win another title - his perfect finish of season looked more like a temporary 'on form' strike.

Everything from that last part of 2010. until now has been superb, I dare to say that his driving has been above all other drivers in F1 since.

#3668 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 01 December 2012 - 16:24

Some of you may be interested in this article: Cheers!

Who's Better: Vettel or Alonso?

Translated by Levi

Original author: Victor Martins

8 Nov 2012

A championship that’s going to have a loser between Fernando Alonso and Sebastian Vettel rises the doubt that looked eternal when comparing Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher – thankfully so. Now that the German engaged 7th gear on his way to his third title, the rivals claim that the pavement to the German’s glory is made by Adrian Newey’s ingenious machine as well as luck. Being that Vettel is equally a genius and doesn’t owe anything to Alonso in terms of talent...Read the rest here

I am questioning Alonso's efficiency for quite a while, including this mantra how he has third or fourth best car, and all what may thinking probably got me is nothing less than I am on a lot of ignore lists. Problem is, that Alonso is never wrong, which itself dosen't make any sense, and being very good and being superb is a fine line and not too much difference to be seen. How you play it counts. In my view Alonso is not a bad driver, and ranks in upper class category, but, he is not standing above everyone else, and his record at Ferrari should make some people to look harder. Vettel can skate with him, sometimes around him, but where the main difference betwen them (as I think) is, that Alonso seems to reached his zenith already as his races appears stagnant, whereas Vettel is still pushing limits, and we do not know how far, and for how long.

Edited by Sakae, 01 December 2012 - 16:26.


#3669 halifaxf1fan

halifaxf1fan
  • Member

  • 4,846 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 01 December 2012 - 16:33

What are you on about?

I am not arguing if Vettel made mistakes or not. Or a certain situation was his own making.
I am saying things happened in the race which he had to deal with. Maybe his own making but the point is how he coped with all these lil points to come thru in the end.

Rain - wasnt ideal for Vettel and threatened his chances even before race start as it favors the Ferraris Although it proved to be great equaliser when his car was not able to even cope with the Saubers.

Webber compromising his start only hampered his title bid - indirectly leading to the shunt.

Senna & Broken Car (even if his own making) did not make his race easier . Did it?

SC to close the field putting Alonso in strike distance from being 1 min behind - did put his title under threat . No? I m fairly sure Alonso s radio message "in English" was meant for Charlie.

Ham DNF coming together meant he won 1 place but Alonso gained 1 "higher value" place - thus threatening the title

Hulk Penalty (even tho it was racing incident) only helped Alonso because it promoted him one place.

Pit Stop strategy and Wet tyre comedy didnt help and almost lost him the title

RAdio not working cant be of help

It was a drive against adversities almost every other lap. Even if you think Seb was to partly or fully blame for teh situation he found himself in - its still amazing.
And therefore I think that this drive will go down history as one of the amazing drives ever for a successful title bid. Its ridiculously gritty, awesome , somewaht clumsy and finally LUCKY all at the same time.



What a marvelous race Vettel ran in Brazil. So many reasons to have failed yet it seemed only to make Vettel try harder. He definitely has proven himself to be a worthy 3X Champion.


#3670 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • In the running for best OP of 2014

  • 3,371 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 01 December 2012 - 16:56

You are of course entitled to your opinion, and while I am happy about his WDC, I could not make such claims about Vettel's year-end races due to lack of relevant data needed to perform objective comparative analyses, thus subjective perceptions have to do. I am curious then which one in your mind was a greater individual achievement? If you want to shoot down Vettel's performance, explanation in support of your rationale could be helpful for me to understand it.

I just believe that it's impossible to truly choose a 'best ever' drive of all the ones that have occurred throughout history. I haven't seen all the drives throughout history from championship contenders who went on to win the championship, so I think it would be hard to make an accurate judgment either way. As great as Vettel's drive was, for me to call it the best drive ever from a contender to win the championship would indicate an ignorance of history, in my opinion.

Of course, you would also be right to say that if I hadn't seen all the races from championship contenders who went on to win the championship, I wouldn't be in a position to say that Vettel's wasn't the best ever, but I guess I'll just put that one down to humility--I'm sure other people had the privilege of witnessing better drives back in the day. :) For now, though, I do believe that Vettel's drive was at least one of the greatest ever in such circumstances--better than any I've seen thus far, if I'm honest.

I think Abu Dhabi was his best race. He was totally blindsided by the fuel issue which obviously wasn't his fault. RB were smart to incur an additional penalty to work on the car & change the setup. That was the only way the car could have came from the rear to the podium. Yes there were some SC's in AD but to come from dead last to 3rd is remarkable. Best drive of the year.

Have to say you're one of the most objective posters I've seen on here, so to hear such a thing coming from you is nice indeed. :up:

I remember when people seldom gave credit to Vettel for very much, a year or so ago... now that he's getting so much praise from all corners, it's very weird, to say the least, lol.

#3671 gillesthegenius

gillesthegenius
  • Member

  • 2,534 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 01 December 2012 - 17:20

I just believe that it's impossible to truly choose a 'best ever' drive of all the ones that have occurred throughout history. I haven't seen all the drives throughout history from championship contenders who went on to win the championship, so I think it would be hard to make an accurate judgment either way. As great as Vettel's drive was, for me to call it the best drive ever from a contender to win the championship would indicate an ignorance of history, in my opinion.

Of course, you would also be right to say that if I hadn't seen all the races from championship contenders who went on to win the championship, I wouldn't be in a position to say that Vettel's wasn't the best ever, but I guess I'll just put that one down to humility--I'm sure other people had the privilege of witnessing better drives back in the day. :) For now, though, I do believe that Vettel's drive was at least one of the greatest ever in such circumstances--better than any I've seen thus far, if I'm honest.


Have to say you're one of the most objective posters I've seen on here, so to hear such a thing coming from you is nice indeed. :up:

I remember when people seldom gave credit to Vettel for very much, a year or so ago... now that he's getting so much praise from all corners, it's very weird, to say the least, lol.


The bolded part echoes my feelings too.

Btw its interesting how different people are picking different races as Seb's drive of the year. Some are of the opinion that Spa was his best, while some others are picking Abu Dhabi, and then we have Brazil being put forward as well. All this probably shows what a mega season Seb has just had. (MA)

Edited by gillesthegenius, 01 December 2012 - 17:27.


#3672 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,644 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 December 2012 - 18:48

I am questioning Alonso's efficiency for quite a while, including this mantra how he has third or fourth best car, and all what may thinking probably got me is nothing less than I am on a lot of ignore lists. Problem is, that Alonso is never wrong, which itself dosen't make any sense, and being very good and being superb is a fine line and not too much difference to be seen. How you play it counts. In my view Alonso is not a bad driver, and ranks in upper class category, but, he is not standing above everyone else, and his record at Ferrari should make some people to look harder. Vettel can skate with him, sometimes around him, but where the main difference betwen them (as I think) is, that Alonso seems to reached his zenith already as his races appears stagnant, whereas Vettel is still pushing limits, and we do not know how far, and for how long.


I think it is a hard question. There are many factors in play that have to be taken into consideration. The development of a car over a season certainly benefits from driver input when the car is developed for a driver, but the ultimate efficacy is limited by the potential of driver, engineers (all of them - design, aero, mechanical, etc.), factory reproduction, parts use, etc. So for example, if the driver verbalizes a specific idea, it has to be efficiently and effectively carried out or resolved by the concurrent genius, parts, workmanship, etc., available within the regulations. The total input is important because improvements in one area may affect other areas balancing or worsening performance. And of course the source of input is not with the driver alone. That is just an example - as I mentioned, there are many factors at play.

I think it is easy to say, based on overall development, that the Red Bull total input/output process was seemingly better than that at Ferrari (as was McLaren's), but I would be wary of trying to pinpoint the drivers - a big part of that process - as having more or less importance in the overall equation.

I was also not in agreement with Levi's dismissal of the teammates' input. Understandably the car is tooled toward the primary driver, but considering the intricacies of the sport and the fact that different drivers excel in different areas, I have to believe that the input of the teammates can be crucial in moments in driving things forward.

We have from engineers that these top drivers all are adept at feedback. However, based on the above, I do not think that we can go much further than to say the overall input/output for the RBR car appears to have been more productive than Ferrari's in the end. That Seb and Mark played a role in that is certain, but gauging that ability as an outsider is to me, an exercise in futility.

That said, I would imagine there are some drivers out there that are simply horrific at giving input - everything is possible and probable in life in that respect. So Levi has a point; but again, I would be very cautious in suggesting the drivers are the key difference (which he hasn't really), or suggesting that the performance development and product we ultimately see reflects on the drivers ability in that regard, to the extent that we can unquestionably reach a conclusion reagarding who is best at it (which he seemingly has done).

What I can say is that Vettel/Webber + Red Bull input has resulted in 3 Constructor and WDC titles. The big picture/long term goal was reached based on their overall input/output efficacy.

Edited by bourbon, 01 December 2012 - 18:56.


#3673 mnmracer

mnmracer
  • Member

  • 1,972 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 01 December 2012 - 18:50

Have to say you're one of the most objective posters I've seen on here, so to hear such a thing coming from you is nice indeed. :up:

Although CE and I have clashed before, I have to agree now :up:

I remember when people seldom gave credit to Vettel for very much, a year or so ago... now that he's getting so much praise from all corners, it's very weird, to say the least, lol.

Aside from the fact there is little to compare Vettel and Internet Explorer, you could swap out IE (and stuff) with Vettel (and stuff), and it would still be a perfectly accurate video.
We've slowly seen it happen over the past few years that people admit their ignorance, and I look forward to this progress continueing.
YouTube

Edited by mnmracer, 01 December 2012 - 18:51.


#3674 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,644 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 December 2012 - 19:01

Although CE and I have clashed before, I have to agree now :up:


Aside from the fact there is little to compare Vettel and Internet Explorer, you could swap out IE (and stuff) with Vettel (and stuff), and it would still be a perfectly accurate video.
We've slowly seen it happen over the past few years that people admit their ignorance, and I look forward to this progress continueing.
YouTube



Okay, that video had me rolling! :rotfl: One of the greatest ever made! I also get your point, and you are correct of course. But that apart - I LOVE THAT VID in a purely Off Topic way!!! LOL!

Thanks for sharing :up:

#3675 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 01 December 2012 - 20:37

Although CE and I have clashed before, I have to agree now :up:


Aside from the fact there is little to compare Vettel and Internet Explorer, you could swap out IE (and stuff) with Vettel (and stuff), and it would still be a perfectly accurate video.
We've slowly seen it happen over the past few years that people admit their ignorance, and I look forward to this progress continueing.
YouTube

Not too many, and we see it in frequent polling. Challenges for Seb on his path to fame are endless. Last year I seem to recall posts calling for him to win from lower position on the grid, and not just from the front. This year when he did just that, new charge is, that his comeback back is too easy, because they "cheated" in the pits, by virtue of changing car setup, and I am bracing myself what's next for him. (Maybe winning while driving in reverse)?

I do not wish to appear confrontational, but I think ignorant people remain ignorant, and nothing will change. I have followed Schumacher enough to know what can happend when there is animocity, but realistically one cannot expect that everyone is on your side all the time. Open minded people can change their mind, although quite legitimate questions is, if the same fans remain unconvinced even today that Seb is a real deal, what is he suppose to do next which he hasn't done it already?

Edited by Sakae, 01 December 2012 - 20:39.


#3676 Kelateboy

Kelateboy
  • Member

  • 5,792 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:43

Webber on Vettel v Alonso, and a few more subjects.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20551312

#3677 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:30

I do not wish to appear confrontational, but I think ignorant people remain ignorant, and nothing will change. I have followed Schumacher enough to know what can happend when there is animocity, but realistically one cannot expect that everyone is on your side all the time. Open minded people can change their mind, although quite legitimate questions is, if the same fans remain unconvinced even today that Seb is a real deal, what is he suppose to do next which he hasn't done it already?


This is the way of the free world. Everybody has the right to have his own opinion, as stupid or as clever it might be, and to express it freely. It has not be based on facts or pass any test of logic and thankfully it is this way. However every guy bears the consequences of his opinions and in the context of this forums he exposes himself to to the opinions of others. He can earn a :up: , a critic or a :lol: or no reaction at all.

Personally I find myself on more comfortable if the personal opinion is backed by logic and facts. I might be wrong but if I learned anythingy in my profession as an investor it is highly dangerous to disregard a disciplined approach to business and to put too much faith in other people's believes, including my own. The big upside in business is of course that you can earn much more from other people's mistakes than from idiotic comments on this board. Maybe this makes it more difficult to avoid to point those mistakes out.  ;)


In any case I came here as I did not post part three of the Welt series about Vettel done by Marko.




#3678 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,285 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 02 December 2012 - 16:23

The bolded part echoes my feelings too.

Btw its interesting how different people are picking different races as Seb's drive of the year. Some are of the opinion that Spa was his best, while some others are picking Abu Dhabi, and then we have Brazil being put forward as well. All this probably shows what a mega season Seb has just had. (MA)


Abu Dhabi was the psycological win- the banana skin avoidence
Alonso was sure he'd take the lead in the WDC after that race with Seb in a hopeless situation, and for Seb to be next to him on the podium, only 3 points worse off, Alonso was pi$$ed, Kimi/Vettel were joking around, laughing, almost at Alonso's expense.

Spa was the one that kept him in it

Brazil was the one that won it.

#3679 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,285 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 02 December 2012 - 20:14

Seb at the Autosport awards tonight. Might mean that he's won it

Advertisement

#3680 rasul

rasul
  • Member

  • 955 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 02 December 2012 - 20:19

Seb at the Autosport awards tonight. Might mean that he's won it


How do you know? Is Alonso there too?

#3681 jstrains

jstrains
  • Member

  • 1,472 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 02 December 2012 - 20:28

Seb driving around Graz this weekend


#3682 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,285 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 02 December 2012 - 20:50

How do you know? Is Alonso there too?


no, can't see anything to suggest he's there

To be fair, i doubt Vettel would come if he didn't win it- not because he's ignorant and doesn't fancy an awards dinner with felow racing drivers but his schedule is so heavy, given a chance, he'd get a free night.
He won it in 2010 despite most people saying he wasn;'t the best driver that year- he might get it in 2012 because they'll spin some argument that its 3 in a row and he's champ and why give it Alonso when he'll shun them?

Not saying its a certainty, but an opinion

Autosport tweet: "Standing ovation now as three-time F1 champion Sebastian Vettel and nine-time WRC champion Sebastien Loeb make their way into the main hall "

#3683 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,285 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 02 December 2012 - 20:50

Seb driving around Graz this weekend


wish there were only 15000 at Milton Keynes last year (not 60K), I may have had half a shout of getting him.


#3684 plumtree

plumtree
  • Member

  • 712 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:29

Again refuse to wear a tie :wave: ( http://awards.autosp...s-2012-gallery/ )

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by plumtree, 02 December 2012 - 21:31.


#3685 Crossmax

Crossmax
  • Member

  • 985 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:32

No live feed?

#3686 Claudius

Claudius
  • Member

  • 2,277 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:35

What's Newey wearing?!
Looks like a masquerade costume.


#3687 Claudius

Claudius
  • Member

  • 2,277 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:36

Anyway, I just wanted to congratulate Vettel for his third consecutive WDC.
He came back from a big deficit and proved that he is a great driver.
The best driver won the WDC this year.



#3688 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,285 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:40

No live feed?


pity really, that they couldn't hook one up or get SkyF1 to do it

#3689 plumtree

plumtree
  • Member

  • 712 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:41

No live feed?

It seems so. :well:
http://live.autospor...tary.php/id/548

What's Newey wearing?!
Looks like a masquerade costume.

Something you think EJ would wear? Somehow it doesn't look too bad on him... :p


Fake Charlie Whiting: "Oh, dear. Sir Adrian's neck endplate has suffered some damage at the #AutosportAwards. And Seb's lost his whole wing." :rotfl:

Edited by plumtree, 02 December 2012 - 21:46.


#3690 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,285 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:52

Well done Seb
3rd time running, Autosport International Racing Driver of the Year

#3691 Zava

Zava
  • Member

  • 5,017 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:56

Well done Seb
3rd time running, Autosport International Racing Driver of the Year

at least they got that part OK-ish. :p
but Button, RB8, Tuscher? :confused:

#3692 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,285 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:58

at least they got that part OK-ish. :p
but Button, RB8, Tuscher? :confused:


debatable definately

#3693 Crossmax

Crossmax
  • Member

  • 985 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 03 December 2012 - 00:03

"I'm nervous, the only other guy up here without a tie was Eddie Jordan," jokes Vettel.

Would love to hear his speech, hopefully someone will post it on youtube tomorrow .

#3694 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,644 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 December 2012 - 00:45

It was very cool that they streamed it last year. I wonder why not this year? Ah well, yeah, hopefully it will be posted on YouTube.;)

Congrats at Sebastian on Autosport International Racing Driver of the Year!!! :up:

Edited by bourbon, 03 December 2012 - 00:50.


#3695 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 03 December 2012 - 14:58

Seb driving around Graz this weekend

Beautiful. :D

#3696 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 03 December 2012 - 15:04


Today, 21.05 CET he, Christian and Adrian will be on Servus(RB)TV.

#3697 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 03 December 2012 - 21:42

Today, 21.05 CET he, Christian and Adrian will be on Servus(RB)TV.


Arguably one of the best interviews I have ever seen with surprisingly good and specific questions for Seb, Christian and Adrian. Certainly worth a watch for many fans of the sport. So many interesting bits but I liked how Seb talked about the DRS sign and how he checked the race weekend later how the various signs are constructed and installed. Fits perfectly with his approach to business. The metal bar certainly did the RBR front nose no good.

#3698 plumtree

plumtree
  • Member

  • 712 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 03 December 2012 - 21:54

Arguably one of the best interviews I have ever seen with surprisingly good and specific questions for Seb, Christian and Adrian. Certainly worth a watch for many fans of the sport. So many interesting bits but I liked how Seb talked about the DRS sign and how he checked the race weekend later how the various signs are constructed and installed. Fits perfectly with his approach to business. The metal bar certainly did the RBR front nose no good.

Like I said, the sign board wasn't just made from polystyrene! :-p Could you share a bit more? Apart from it being broadcast in German, Servus tv didn't provide live streaming of this show.


#3699 eronrules

eronrules
  • Member

  • 3,224 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 03 December 2012 - 22:11

i thought i share this here ... :cat:

Sky - the f1 show : how kimi was a factor in (unintentionally ofcourse) vettel's 3rd WDC


KIMI's SEASON REVIEW - dailymotion

Edited by eronrules, 03 December 2012 - 22:20.


Advertisement

#3700 Higli

Higli
  • Member

  • 262 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 04 December 2012 - 00:08

Do you think Vettel wishes to join Ferrari after 2014?

Provided he takes Newey and Horner with him and the Ferrari Drama Queen (aka LdM) is Italian President by then.. well, who knows?

But Newey said he would end his F1 career after Red Bull, so no, I don't see Sebastian in a Ferrari. My guess would be that nobody (including Vettel) knows what's going to happen after 2014.

If I was a Multi-WDC I would lean back, see who's mastered the 2014 reg changes best and then make the decision on my future.

Edited by Higli, 04 December 2012 - 00:11.