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Red Bull cars [not] found to be "in breach of Article 5.5.3 of the Technical regulations" in Germany


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#1 olliek88

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:21

MOD NOTE: Thread split off from German GP thread

F1Kate: Trouble ahead for Red Bull... http://t.co/ktgRsMS6

https://twitter.com/...953900710825984


Uh-oh

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#2 Timstr11

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:25

http://joesaward.wor...es-at-red-bull/

#3 jrg19

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:25

Red Bull reported to stewards here in Hockenheim regarding a technical issue on engine power delivery. Keep an eye on it.


from Martin Brundle on twitter.

What could this mean?

Edited by jrg19, 22 July 2012 - 08:34.


#4 Starlight

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:25

Red Bull reported to stewards here in Hockenheim regarding a technical issue on engine power delivery. Keep an eye on it.

Source

This seems to be brewing this morning...

#5 F.M.

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:25

F1Kate: Trouble ahead for Red Bull... http://t.co/ktgRsMS6

https://twitter.com/...953900710825984


Uh-oh

I don't really get the problem? They are allowed to use a different engine mapping than at other events if they like, not?

#6 jrg19

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:27

Could they be sent to the back of he grid?

#7 korzeniow

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:28

Oh boy oh boy ....

https://twitter.com/...4/photo/1/large

#8 D.M.N.

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:29

http://joesaward.wor...es-at-red-bull/

An FIA Technical Report on Sunday morning in Hockenheim has thrown the cat amongst the pigeons in F1 circles. The FIA Technical Delegate Jo Bauer reported that “having examinded the engine torque map of cars 1 and 2 it became apparent that the maximum torque output of both engines is significantly less in the mid rpm range than previously seen for these engines at other events”.

He went on “in my opinion this is therefore in breach of Article 5.5.3 of the Technical regulations as the engines are able to deliver more torque at a given engine speed in the mid rpm range. Furthermore this new torque map will artificially alter the aerodynamic characteristics of both cars which is also in contravention of TD 036-11.”

It is not clear what TD 036-11 is but one presumes it is a technical directive, or clarification.

Article 5.5.3 states that “The maximum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or greater than the maximum engine torque at the measured engine speed. The minimum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or lower than 0Nm.”

The FIA Stewards are now considering the matter.



#9 jrg19

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:30

Red Bull with illegal engine map. FIA is working on it.


link

#10 Timstr11

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:30

I don't really get the problem? They are allowed to use a different engine mapping than at other events if they like, not?

There are rules governing engine, torque and throttle pedal mapping.

Edited by Timstr11, 22 July 2012 - 08:32.


#11 kosmos

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:32

Nothing will happen, slap on the wrist and change it for the next race.

#12 vsubravet

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:33

Maybe a storm in a tea cup? Red Bull have survived many complaints and allegations, thus far.

#13 RedOne

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:33

Oh boy oh boy ....

https://twitter.com/...4/photo/1/large


:eek: Oh my

#14 Flamini

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:34

Red Bull have survived many complaints and allegations, thus far.


From Jo Bauer?  ;)

#15 lokiman

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:34

*sings* "There may be trouble ahead................."

#16 w00dy

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:35

Is this related to the off-throttle blown diffuser?

#17 puxanando

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:35

Trouble?


"Having examinded the engine torque map of cars 1 (Sebastian Vettel) and 2 (Mark Webber) it became apparent that the maximum torque output of both engines is significantly less in the mid rpm range than previously seen for these engines at other events.
"In my opion this is therefore in breach of Article 5.5.3 of the Technical regulations as the engines are able to deliver more torque at a given engine speed in the mid rpm range.
"Furthermore this new torque map will artificially alter the aerodynamic characteristics of both cars which is also in contravention of TD 036-11."
Article 5.5.3, in which the above refers to, states: "The maximum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or greater than the maximum engine torque at the measured engine speed.



#18 Menace

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:36

This could be big.

#19 bauss

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:37

Posted Image

sh*t just got real...

Guess Newey finally really crossed the line

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#20 Crafty

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:37

So, they discovered how Newey is blowing the floor/diffuser...

So, I wonder what will happen? surely they will lose their qualifying places and be put to the back at the very least.

Possible exclusion from the race ? The only way I can think that this could be made "right" is for the map to be changed in the car and inspected again to ensure it complies.

#21 Markn93

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:37

So, was Darren Heath right after all?

#22 jrg19

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:37

Anyone know the repercussions if it is deemed illegal?

Edited by jrg19, 22 July 2012 - 08:38.


#23 bmardini

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:38

I would think its a nice way of traction control without traction control.

#24 RedOne

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:38

F1talks.pl
No Red Bull cars on the grid today? #F1


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#25 Timstr11

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:38

Nothing will happen, slap on the wrist and change it for the next race.

I don't think so.
There are big possible on track gains if you can run with maps beyond what the rules allow.
They will at least lose their qualifying times and start from the back.

#26 w00dy

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:39

So, they discovered how Newey is blowing the floor/diffuser...

So, I wonder what will happen? surely they will lose their qualifying places and be put to the back at the very least.

Possible exclusion from the race ? The only way I can think that this could be made "right" is for the map to be changed in the car and inspected again to ensure it complies.


If this is a technical breach then they should be excluded. OTOH Bernie-Vettel-Germany, so probably a slap on the wrist

#27 bauss

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:39

Maybe a storm in a tea cup? Red Bull have survived many complaints and allegations, thus far.


this is from the FIA, not the teams.

If LH was thrown to the back of the grid for underfuelling, you will think the least that should happen here is both RBs thrown to the back of the grid and the engine map changed b4 the event..... which will be a slap on the wrist.

Though this is something much more serious and should probably mean both get excluded from the event.... but with the Vettel-Bernie love and the fact that the race is in Germany, they probably don't have the balls

Edited by bauss, 22 July 2012 - 08:41.


#28 stanga

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:39

At most there will be a post-race "clarification".

#29 zk12

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:39

what can be the consequences?

#30 jrg19

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:39

Might there be BAR style ban from 2006?

#31 RedBaron

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:40

Whatever happens I am sure they will not be thrown out of the race. If anything does come of this it will just mean rectify the problem and start from the back. Surely.

#32 seahawk

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:40

They need to be disqualified from the whole event. As the cars are in parc ferme conditions changing the engine maps is not possible. Great news for F1.

#33 imightbewrong

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:40

As far as I can tell, what they are doing is setting the torque output from the engine differently depending on engine rpm but with the accelerator in the maximum position. And that is not allowed according to the rules. When the accelerator is in its maximum position, it must correspond to maximum torque output.

#34 Flamini

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:42

I want interview with Horner now.

:p

#35 Timstr11

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:42

As far as I can tell, what they are doing is setting the torque output from the engine differently depending on engine rpm but with the accelerator in the maximum position. And that is not allowed according to the rules. When the accelerator is in its maximum position, it must correspond to maximum torque output.

Very helpful on a low grip wet track.

#36 prty

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:42

Uh-oh, will they finally be out of their magic farts?

#37 Menace

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:42

As far as I can tell, what they are doing is setting the torque output from the engine differently depending on engine rpm but with the accelerator in the maximum position. And that is not allowed according to the rules. When the accelerator is in its maximum position, it must correspond to maximum torque output.


Traction control.

#38 w00dy

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:43

this is from the FIA, not the teams.

If LH was thrown to the back of the grid for underfuelling, you will think the least that should happen here is both RBs thrown to the back of the grid and the engine map changed b4 the event.


They can change the map between races.

What probably happened is that Marko dude wanted Vettel perform at his home GP, so they tried to pull some shit off...
They will say that this is a Renault engine specific thingy (what they usually say when hot blowing comes up) and try to get away with it...

#39 vsubravet

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:43

If this is a technical breach then they should be excluded. OTOH Bernie-Vettel-Germany, so probably a slap on the wrist


This. Too much at stake with Vettel taking part in race in Germany. Bernie may be burning the Phone lines to Jean Todt, even as we speak.

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#40 mainevent

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:43

woah. Wonder how long they have been doing this for? Ban them.

#41 TFLB

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:43

Guess Newey finally really crossed the line

I think he's been crossing the line for ages, he's just finally been caught.

#42 BigWicks

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:43

Have to be sent to the back of the grid surely?

#43 ivand911

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:44

OK. this can be good in wet, but is it good on dry?

Edited by ivand911, 22 July 2012 - 08:45.


#44 jrg19

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:44

Id imagine its good everywhere.

#45 zapppa

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:44

BAN this cheaters one time...maybe they learn to fight correctly

#46 zk12

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:44

is this a renault thing (means also other renault teams are involved) or is this just a RBR thing?

#47 imightbewrong

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:45

Traction control.


Kind of, but not really. Traction control usually has a feedback and sets the torque based on wheel slip. This is just optimizing the torque based on known parameters. But something similar. And probably also related to getting a good exhaust flow on low RPM's

#48 w00dy

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:45

This. Too much at stake with Vettel taking part in race in Germany. Bernie may be burning the Phone lines to Jean Todt, even as we speak.


Vettel can start, but they will give Webber a 2 race ban to compensate ;)

#49 zk12

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:45

OK. this can be good in wet, but is is good on dry?

it is like traction control, so it is good everywhere

#50 D.M.N.

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 08:46

is this a renault thing (means also other renault teams are involved) or is this just a RBR thing?

FIA release only mentions cars 1 and 2.