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Lotus 12 cars in Northern Ireland


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#1 M bennett

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:02

Recently the Bill Friend archives have come into my possession. Among the many papers and photographs are a number of pictures of a red Lotus 12 chassis and bodywork arriving at Bill's farm in Ridge. This can be clearly identified a the main components of the Mike Weineger car shown in previous posts. The bodywork shows the unique attachment points of the trailing arms of the Weineger car. So we are able to confirm that Bill did acquire this car though there is no date provided.
As no two cars were the same, I think the Dzus fastener behing the drivers shoulders may also be unique to this car
Reading from previous posts if I have this correct, this car had previous owners Denis Kinghan, Richard Young, Tom Megrath and Mike Weineger. Though I am not sure of the correct order of ownership.
Post Dennis Kingham (sic) 'Theme Lotus' has Chris Stewart and Paul Foulks-Halbard to Count "Zundapp" 1978
Prior to N Ireland 'Theme Lotus' has David Boorer as I presume the previous UK owner in 1965

I would like to try and put all this into chronological order and of course of anyone has any photos of the Irish era, other that those already posted I would love to see them.
As the Lotus 12 registrar for the HLR I would like, if possible, more clarity on the Irish ownerships.
I have asked my mate Dave Beard to drop in some pictures of the red body/chassis that have just surfaced.
Many Thanks Mike B

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#2 larryd

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 08:33

Recently the Bill Friend archives have come into my possession. Among the many papers and photographs are a number of pictures of a red Lotus 12 chassis and bodywork arriving at Bill's farm in Ridge. This can be clearly identified a the main components of the Mike Weineger car shown in previous posts. The bodywork shows the unique attachment points of the trailing arms of the Weineger car. So we are able to confirm that Bill did acquire this car though there is no date provided.
As no two cars were the same, I think the Dzus fastener behing the drivers shoulders may also be unique to this car
Reading from previous posts if I have this correct, this car had previous owners Denis Kinghan, Richard Young, Tom Megrath and Mike Weineger. Though I am not sure of the correct order of ownership.
Post Dennis Kingham (sic) 'Theme Lotus' has Chris Stewart and Paul Foulks-Halbard to Count "Zundapp" 1978
Prior to N Ireland 'Theme Lotus' has David Boorer as I presume the previous UK owner in 1965

I would like to try and put all this into chronological order and of course of anyone has any photos of the Irish era, other that those already posted I would love to see them.
As the Lotus 12 registrar for the HLR I would like, if possible, more clarity on the Irish ownerships.
I have asked my mate Dave Beard to drop in some pictures of the red body/chassis that have just surfaced.
Many Thanks Mike B


Front and centre please, Richard !!

#3 bill p

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 09:01

.................the Mike Weineger car shown in previous posts...............


As previously posted. Photo: A McGrath

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#4 Richard Young

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 09:22

Ah yes.....The Lotus 12. I acquired the chassis/body and some other bits...Radiator, most of the suspension, steering rack/column/wheel etc from Tom Megrath. It had apparently run with a Reault Dauphine gearbox and Ford engine in Mike Weiniger's hands - as pictured - but none of that was present when it came to me.
I kept it for about a year before eventually relising that I hadn't sufficient funds to attempt a restoration. An ad in Autosport resulted in its sale to Mike Guye - thren in London, now in the US - and we delivered it all to him - transporting it on the roof of a Hillman Imp !
I spoke to Mike a couple of years ago, at which point he told me that it may now be in Canada !
I had made some feeble attempts to discover who had owned it previous to Messrs Weiniger and Megrath but never found out. I even spoke to DSJ about it but he told me that 'whatever it may have been once, it probaby isn't now !'
True enough !

#5 Richard Young

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:13

A couple of further thoughts have surfaced.........
Firstly the body was certainly red when I had the car, (in 1970/1 I think), but there was no sign of any sort of chassis plate. Mike Weiniger would have been the last person to actually race it before it came to me, and I suspect Denis Kinghan appears in the ownership chain before Mike/Tommy. The man to whom I sold it was Mike Gue (apologies for myopic typing in the last post) who was in Atlanta GA when I spoke to him a few years ago.
I am now curious about its present location..........

#6 D-Type

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 17:39

A couple of further thoughts have surfaced.........
Firstly the body was certainly red when I had the car, (in 1970/1 I think), but there was no sign of any sort of chassis plate. Mike Weiniger would have been the last person to actually race it before it came to me, and I suspect Denis Kinghan appears in the ownership chain before Mike/Tommy. The man to whom I sold it was Mike Gue (apologies for myopic typing in the last post) who was in Atlanta GA when I spoke to him a few years ago.
I am now curious about its present location..........

Richard, you can edit your own posts by clicking on the button at bottom right. Unlike some forums, forum there's no time limit here

#7 M bennett

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:39

Richard when the photos are loaded you will see the body chassis unit delivered to Bill Friend was pretty much as it must have looked on the roof of your Imp on its way to Mike Gue. At the moment I am finding it hard to believe that it went to the USA and then came back without anything happening to it. I am trying to get in touch with Roger Friend who will be able to advise when and where the body/chassis came from and when. It certainly is the Mike Weineger vehicle still in the red paint and with body holes to suit the twin trailing arms on the rear suspension. The Bill Friend papers show this body chassis unit being built up into the Lotus 12 that is now in the Swedish museum but I will need to do more to fully confirm this.
In previous posts there was a suggestion that the Irish Weineger car might have been #352. Do you think it wuld be possible to trace Mike Gue again for a second take on his input?
Was there not a suggestion in previous posts of s second Lotus 12 in Ireland?
Regards Mike B Adelaide



#8 David Beard

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 16:23

I have asked my mate Dave Beard to drop in some pictures of the red body/chassis that have just surfaced.


Sorry for the delay!

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#9 David Beard

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 16:31

And another:

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#10 Richard Young

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 20:20

Well....That certainly looks familiar !

#11 scags

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:01

it would take a brave person to build that up to something recognizable to the original car.

#12 David Beard

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:33

it would take a brave person to build that up to something recognizable to the original car.


:confused:
I think a few restored cars have started from a lot less than that...

#13 M bennett

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:10

To add more information here is some input from Roger Friend on how the car was restored/completed and turned into a driving car. The car it seems did have a fiberglass tank for fuel built into the tail (my car #353 also has a fiberglass fuel tank but they ceased shortly after as they were heavy and continually leaked )
OK where to start with 352, yes we bought the car from Ken Moore whom we had known for a long time in Motor Racing, and as he was a Cooper nut had no time for the Lotus, he definitely was not a dealer, his real job was as a Jazz pianist. He sold it to Bill Friend, what we managed to glean from him regarding history, was Paul Foulkes Harbard had owned the car and as a wheeler dealer, decided to build a completely new car chassis and body, and sold it on as 352, what we bought was the original chassis and body including the alloy/fibreglass rear tail section, it was to far gone to use at it had started to de laminate from the alloy, we also got with the car, rear uprights bell housing front and rear end plates for the gear box and gear linkage, not much else, but for £1200 wasn’t too bad, we entrusted the body work repair to Len Prichard (Williams and Prichard) with instructions to save as much as he could from the original car, in the end all he could salvage was the front nose section and dashboard, the rest was made new,

We then started on the build programme, first the queerbox, your, right about the connection with Tony Mantel regarding the three boxes that where made, it was a bloody nightmare, finding all the people to make the parts, most companies I approached wanted to make 100 s off not just 3 what would we do with 100 CWP ? eventually it was done , the whole car was then finished off complete with 1500 Coventry Climax Twin Cam FPF, we then started a testing programme, and at the first test at Silverstone I came in after 3 laps and declared it handled like a duck on snot,


I can report that the replica chassis made by Paul Folkes Halbard did in fact go to Robert Sutherland in Colorado and was completed into car that was always called a replica. That car has been broken up again for its parts so it has removed itself from the gene pool!
Any ideas on the circular badge on the nose of the red car?

Mike Bennett Adelaide

#14 Barry Boor

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 14:59

May I refer back to a post that I put on a different thread to this one?

Could this red one be 356 that went new to Switzerland to Charles Vogele and thence to Willi Zimmerman? It was raced under the banner of Ecurie Hoba (could that be their badge on the nose?)

I am a complete novice on the subject of Lotus 12s (Lotus anythings, in fact) but given that red was the Swiss racing colour, it might explain how this car came to be that colour.

Apologies to all the people who know far more than I do.

Just a thought.

#15 M bennett

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:06

Yes I did need to check out that option too. The Swiss car chassis No 356 was painted red with a white stripe and shipped directly, according to the Lotus build card, to Charles Vogele in Switzerland
The chassis we are looking at above had a fiberglass fuel tank in the tail, confirmed by Roger Friend. Only the very first few cars had the fiberglass tank thereafter falling back on the proven alloy tank. This points to the car being No 352. No 356 would almost certainly have had an alloy tail tank,.
Also the Dzus fastener behind the driver I believe is unique to this car. This car can be identified in photographs at several race meetings in the care of Team Lotus mechanics. So it spent at least the 1957 season in Team Lotus hands. This ties in with the early ownerships listed in 'Theme Lotus'
As we know the Swiss Lotus 12 eventually was stripped and suspension wheels gearbox etc built into a two seat road going sports car. The assumption to date is that the unwanted chassis and bodywork was scrapped?
I have now an almost complete register of all 12 of Lotus 12 cars built, but of course there is always new information arriving. That is not to say that we may one day learn more about the one or two cars that are as yet unaccounted for.
Mike Bennett Adelaide

#16 Barry Boor

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:35

So, a white stripe! I'll have to get busy with my red Twelve.

#17 bill p

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 15:23

"Mike Weineger car" at Bishopscourt, Sept 1965 with Tom Megrath driving

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#18 Doug Nye

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 21:08

Richard Bourne provided the vast majority of the chassis history gen published in what one customer of MRP's Chiswick bookshop referred to as 'Them Lo'us'. But I do remember discussing his Lotus 12(s) with the late Paul Foulkes-Halbard. He was - ahem - very vague in what he told me, but I think that 'Count Zundapp' came from him... Ho hum - all a long time ago, when I was (sometimes) far too polite to mine too deep...

DCN