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Red Bull - smart or sneaky?


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Poll: RBR's approach to the rules is? (183 member(s) have cast votes)

Feel free to choose more than one option.

  1. Smart (95 votes [37.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.55%

  2. Sneaky (103 votes [40.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.71%

  3. A bit out of date for a top team (13 votes [5.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.14%

  4. Normal (31 votes [12.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.25%

  5. Uninteresting (11 votes [4.35%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.35%

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#1 oetzi

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 22:52

I know the thread title may sound perjorative, but it's not meant to. Red Bull have been clearly the best team over the past few years. They have come up with some fascinating solutions (in conjunction with their partners, of course). All I'm wondering is whether these ideas have been unique, or whether others have assessed the same concepts, and discarded them for either technical or sporting* reasons.

I know people will have strong views on this, but I do think there's a discussion worth having underneath that.

My personal view is that they probably took some chances on the way up, which is fair enough, and were allowed to. And now they're up at the top, they might see a little more in the way of regulatory zeal. No sympathy or blind eyes to be had now, but they've earned that position, and should be proud of the scrutiny.

Just my guess. I don't know enough to do more than that. What do you think?

*I'm just trying to avoid the use of 'legal', 'ethical', and related words, not invoking the 'spirit of the law' or the sporting regulations. Perhaps 'because it's a bad idea' covers it.

Edited by oetzi, 24 July 2012 - 22:53.


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#2 engel

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 22:58

the fact the FIA pretty much has had to create a new department that issues clarifications and amendments and directives to counter Red Bull's ideas suggests Red Bull are simply ahead of the curve. If they were being "sneaky" then you 'd have race exclusions, not technical directives

#3 Hippo

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 23:08

It's nothing special. Everyone is doing it. It's just that the others aren't fast on track so nobody cares about their "solutions". If you go back 10 or 15 years I guess you'd find out that about every team developed something that forced the FIA to rewrite the rulebook in the timeframe.

What's more surprising is, that Ferrari used to have that cloud of doubt around them when they were fast at least during the last 5-6 years. Now they are comfortably leading the championship and nobody cares about their gear. Everyone is concerned about catching Red Bull cheating.

#4 oetzi

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 23:11

the fact the FIA pretty much has had to create a new department that issues clarifications and amendments and directives to counter Red Bull's ideas suggests Red Bull are simply ahead of the curve. If they were being "sneaky" then you 'd have race exclusions, not technical directives

If they were really sneaky, surely nobody would know?

#5 oetzi

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 23:15

It's nothing special. Everyone is doing it. It's just that the others aren't fast on track so nobody cares about their "solutions". If you go back 10 or 15 years I guess you'd find out that about every team developed something that forced the FIA to rewrite the rulebook in the timeframe.

What's more surprising is, that Ferrari used to have that cloud of doubt around them when they were fast at least during the last 5-6 years. Now they are comfortably leading the championship and nobody cares about their gear. Everyone is concerned about catching Red Bull cheating.

Yep. And McLaren looked miles and away fastest at the start of the season, were found to be taking liberties, and it wasn't really mentioned in public for a few months. That's maybe why I'm suggesting Red Bull should be proud. If they were pulled up for that it would make the papers.

#6 engel

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 23:37

If they were really sneaky, surely nobody would know?


really sneaky as in Option 13 sneaky? Personally I doubt any team would try something like that these days but then again .... I thought people that started talking about Piquet crashing out on purpose were insane conspiracy theorists, so what do I know :)

#7 ForeverF1

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 23:58

I went for smart and sneaky. The rules IMO are written to get them (designers) thinking.

#8 aditya-now

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 00:03

I went for smart and sneaky. The rules IMO are written to get them (designers) thinking.



Smart and sneaky here as well - although I clicked only sneaky.

Both Sebastian Vettel's and Christian Horner's behavior is sometimes rather suspicious. I prefer Mark Webber and Adrian Newey. And let me not start on Dr. Helmut Marko.

#9 ForeverF1

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 00:31

Smart and sneaky here as well - although I clicked only sneaky.

Both Sebastian Vettel's and Christian Horner's behavior is sometimes rather suspicious. I prefer Mark Webber and Adrian Newey. And let me not start on Dr. Helmut Marko.

They are all smart and sneaky and should be viewed with suspicion at all times.

#10 pingu666

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 00:52

the interesting thing about christian is hes thought of being a puppet, but no one ever says who the puppet master is. you would think dietrich would be too busy to run a f1 team.

but they smart and sneaky.


#11 Nitropower

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 00:54

Both, but they made the sport so boring in 2011 and I really really hope it doesn't go that way again any time soon. They have been creative from the start and I'm sure the gases thing has been there for years but they brought it to perfection and in 2012 they benefited from all the experience they've collected. I am surprised that FIA finds their car illegal by race 10 ... and not by race 1... for me it's unacceptable from FIA but I'm not surprised. Renault's mass damper was banned not 2 seasons later but 1 or 2 races later. As much unacceptable as not giving them a penalty at all even if it has been clear they had an illegal car. Others got a 2 race ban immediately for such things.

#12 Raemius

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:11

Obviously Newey is a very smart cookie, particularly when it comes to aerodynamics and packaging. I think that because most of his developments over the last couple of years have related to areas that cannot actually be seen (engine maps, exhaust blowing, etc.) there tends to be a lot of suspicion raised about their legality because the media and fans don't understand what they are doing. Compare that to DDRS at Mercedes - very visible and obvious, so we as fans can immediately form an opinion.

Add to that the fact that they are not the most fan-friendly or media-friendly of teams when it comes to talking about things (I know they had a reputation for being "fun" on the way up, but that was mainly at the expense of other people and often very derogatory, which also polarises opinion) and I think that explains a lot of why we might feel they are being "sneaky".

Adrian Newey has always struck me as a genius that likes to hide and covet his ideas (or those his team come up with), rather than be open - very subjective, I know, but it adds to the secretive feeling and, hence, the sneaky tag.

I agree with a previous poster that the FIA could help the situation by acting more quickly and definitively when "clarifying" what's allowed, but I guess they have a difficult job sometimes when people find that the wording of the regs leaves a gap and then they need to figure out whether to close it or allow everyone to have a shot at it.

The simple thing is - if it's one of our favourite drivers or teams that's got a "magic bullet" we tend to like it, but if it's elsewhere we think it's unfair.

#13 Sakae

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:33

Smart and sneaky here as well - although I clicked only sneaky.

Both Sebastian Vettel's and Christian Horner's behavior is sometimes rather suspicious. I prefer Mark Webber and Adrian Newey. And let me not start on Dr. Helmut Marko.

Now, really? I thought it takes one to know one. :wave:

#14 packapoo

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:54

They're smart. And it's good to see innovation in action.
As to the boring comment; well maybe the other teams caused the boring because they didn't/couldn't innovate.
For example the present hooha over engine mapping doesn't need heavy handed correction - leave it. The advantage, if there was one, has gone. The other teams have a choice.

#15 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:04

What's more surprising is, that Ferrari used to have that cloud of doubt around them when they were fast at least during the last 5-6 years. Now they are comfortably leading the championship and nobody cares about their gear. Everyone is concerned about catching Red Bull cheating.

Thats not surprising at all. The Ferrari, while aggressive relative to their past few efforts, is still a fairly conservative design in terms of it pushing rule limits. They haven't been doing anything noticeably suspicious. Unlike Red Bull, who have constantly been coming up with inventive interpretations of the rules. Quite a few of these interpretations have been targeted by the FIA, but the cleverness of the team has allowed them to gain advantage when they can, even if it will be banned later.

I say kudos to them. Outsmarting the competition is a large part of this sport.

#16 oetzi

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 08:46

really sneaky as in Option 13 sneaky? Personally I doubt any team would try something like that these days but then again .... I thought people that started talking about Piquet crashing out on purpose were insane conspiracy theorists, so what do I know :)

:lol:

#17 Gareth

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 08:48

I went for smart and sneaky. The rules IMO are written to get them (designers) thinking.

I went for smart, sneaky and normal.

There's no doubt they are smart and sneaky and that every team in the pitlane is smart and sneaky. It's just that Red Bull seem to be smarter than the other teams at being sneaky!

#18 oetzi

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 08:48

They are all smart and sneaky and should be viewed with suspicion at all times.

Isn't that page 1, paragraph 1 of the 'F1: Its teams and its people' guidebook?

#19 Jon83

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:55

Two WCC, two WDC and every chance of a third (of both) would suggest it is 'smart'

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#20 TFLB

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 14:45

Sneaky, constantly working against the spirit of the rules, and F1 would be better without them and everyone involved with them.

#21 HoldenRT

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 15:01

They have had consistantly the best package since 2009.

It was Brawn that was the sneaky/cheat team, because once their "cheat part" was removed they've been nowhere.. until China this year, which was more tyre related probably.

Redbull have had the best chassis. That's why all the other teams have cloned their car. Not just for this season, but for years. The reason why the gap between the teams has merged so much is that they have all slowly converged on Redbull's aero concept. Especially Ferrari. McLaren have done their own thing more? Haven't payed much attention to the technical side in the last 18 months.

However.. there has been part after part that has been banned on the Redbull car since 2009, helping each team to "reverse engineer" the secrets to the cars pace. Every time a part is banned, it does those teams a favour, as it's one less thing they have to research and worry about, and it has been a process of elimination for YEARS.

This last thing is just one, in a VERY long list of things.

Sneaky, smart? Both. But that's not the issue.

The issue is that they have had the best car for the last 4 years. Cheat parts or not. Because every time these parts are removed they are STILL winning races, and STILL winning championships.

Most of the discussions on here, are so dumb and short sighted. Sort of similar to how drivers are viewed only as good as their last race.

#22 HoldenRT

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 15:04

And they ALL do it. All of the teams. That's what the engineers and designers are paid for. Ferrari had clever wheel rims. McLaren had F Duct. Mercedes this year have double DRS.

It all comes back to the fact that Redbull have had the best chassis consistantly for the last 4 years. That's what seperates them and draws more attention to them.

#23 BillBald

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 15:09

The Ferrari, while aggressive relative to their past few efforts, is still a fairly conservative design in terms of it pushing rule limits. They haven't been doing anything noticeably suspicious.


Or maybe Ferrari are the smartest and sneakiest of all?



#24 oetzi

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 16:50

Sneaky, smart? Both. But that's not the issue.

The issue is that they have had the best car for the last 4 years. Cheat parts or not. Because every time these parts are removed they are STILL winning races, and STILL winning championships.

Most of the discussions on here, are so dumb and short sighted.

Do you think it's dumb to wonder what route the best team took to make the best car? What philosophy they employ?


#25 oetzi

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 16:51

Or maybe Ferrari are the smartest and sneakiest of all?

HRT have stayed well under the radar the past few races. I've got my eye on them.


#26 spacekid

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 16:52

Red Bull - smart or sneaky?

Yes! Thats F1, isn't it?

#27 Szoelloe

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 16:55

You forgot to include the only obvious option from the poll, sorry.

#28 oetzi

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 16:56

You forgot to include the only obvious option from the poll, sorry.

I don't think they're sorry.

#29 MightyMc

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:00

Redbull need to be given a slap on the wrist, and told to bring any sneaky idea's they have in the future to the FIA and let them then get given the green light or not.

Time and time again Redbull do this knowing at worst they will only get their tweeks outlawed, while enjoying the benefit until they are outlawed.

#30 Slowinfastout

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:00

Depends what actually happened..

The idea of the rule is to prevent the engine delivering less power to the wheels than it can do.

But while the FIA intended it to mean that the engine could not deliver less torque than it was ultimately capable of, Red Bull interpreted it to mean it could not deliver less than it was programmed to deliver on that day. http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/18986375


How can you go overnight from 'the engine could not deliver less torque than it was ultimately capable of' to (the engine)'could not deliver less than it was programmed to deliver on that day'?

It's one thing to be smart and finding new ways to go fast, but another to suddenly make the decision to interpret the same rule differently from a race to another, that would be sneaky.

Considering how pissed off the FIA seems to have been I'd say much more sneaky than smart.

#31 Mrlarsen

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:03

Sneaky bastards.... once more they are a caught "bending" the rules to gain an advantage, im glad to see that FIA is keeping an eye on Red Bull this time.

#32 Szoelloe

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:03

I don't think they're sorry.



So do I/neither do I

oooops. I am teaching modal verbs to my son lately. :D

#33 Slowinfastout

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:05

Redbull need to be given a slap on the wrist, and told to bring any sneaky idea's they have in the future to the FIA and let them then get given the green light or not.

Time and time again Redbull do this knowing at worst they will only get their tweeks outlawed, while enjoying the benefit until they are outlawed.


replace 'sneaky' by 'new' and it's already in the FIA regulations.

2.4 Compliance with the regulations

Should a competitor introduce a new design or system or feel that any aspect of these regulations is unclear, clarification may be sought from the FIA Formula One Technical Department. If clarification relates to any new design or system, correspondence must include:
- A full description of the design or system.
- Drawings or schematics where appropriate.
- The competitor's opinion concerning the immediate implications on other parts of the car of any proposed new design.
- The competitor's opinion concerning any possible long term consequences or new developments which may come from using any such new designs or systems.
- The precise way or ways in which the competitor feels the new design or system will enhance the performance of the car.



#34 oetzi

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:08

So do I/neither do I

oooops. I am teaching modal verbs to my son lately. :D

That must be difficult. I wouldn't know where to start. :)

#35 Szoelloe

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:10

That must be difficult. I wouldn't know where to start. :)


LOL. Don't even start on that. Sorry for the off. :D


#36 MightyMc

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:16

Remember Hamilton asking Vettel after Qualifying a couple of races ago "What is your secret?", and Vettel with a little smile saying "I can't tell you".

Hamilton smelt a rat, maybe it was Mclaren giving the heads up to the FIA after all.



#37 oetzi

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:22

LOL. Don't even start on that. Sorry for the off. :D

No worries.

#38 PNSD

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:29

Smart if you like them/neutral

Sneaky if you're just pissed off they are better than the team you support.

Still, I appreciate what they do, they epitomise why I love F1. They push the boundaries on all levels and that is awesome. Ferrari did it for years and all we heard was Ferrari International Assistance. Then again something else we heard was the Italian national anthem a whole heap.

#39 handel

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:32

Not a particular fan of the team but they're no sneakier than any other F1 team. They're smart - just like every other F1 team.

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#40 ocp

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:33

This engine maps are sneaky.

F-duct was smart.

EBD were smart.





#41 olliek88

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:38

Both.

No point being smart and obvious, people will cotton on pretty quickly if thats the case. RBR sailed a little too close to the wind by the sounds of it though.

#42 Szoelloe

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 17:41

Both.

No point being smart and obvious, people will cotton on pretty quickly if thats the case. RBR sailed a little too close to the wind by the sounds of it though.



there you are. At last.

#43 goldenboy

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 20:14

quite amusing is the ferrari and mclaren fans calling them underhanded cheaters that should be kicked out of the sport. They wouldn't have even scratched the tip of the iceberg compared to what these two would have done over the years. It's just F1.

#44 mattferg

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 21:04

It's nothing special. Everyone is doing it. It's just that the others aren't fast on track so nobody cares about their "solutions". If you go back 10 or 15 years I guess you'd find out that about every team developed something that forced the FIA to rewrite the rulebook in the timeframe.

What's more surprising is, that Ferrari used to have that cloud of doubt around them when they were fast at least during the last 5-6 years. Now they are comfortably leading the championship and nobody cares about their gear. Everyone is concerned about catching Red Bull cheating.


Red Bull are comfortably leading the Constructors Championship, the one which is significant to this discussion as it's about the construction of the car and the way Red Bull advances it's technology and loopholes etc. The driver's championship is less significant.

#45 oetzi

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 22:09

there you are. At last.

That's why you can vote for as many of the options as you like.

#46 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 22:40

quite amusing is the ferrari and mclaren fans calling them underhanded cheaters that should be kicked out of the sport. They wouldn't have even scratched the tip of the iceberg compared to what these two would have done over the years. It's just F1.


Go ahead with the generalizations :rolleyes:
Alonso & Ferrari fan here, and I ticked smart, sneaky and normal

#47 GAZF1nut

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 22:47

quite amusing is the ferrari and mclaren fans calling them underhanded cheaters that should be kicked out of the sport. They wouldn't have even scratched the tip of the iceberg compared to what these two would have done over the years. It's just F1.

:up:

#48 Juan Kerr

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 23:27

Its not smart its stupid, pointless developing something that will definitely get banned because its not in the spirit of the rules. Now all that development time could've been used to make the car more efficient generally without doing something underhand that is bound to get immediately banned.

#49 lbennie

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 03:28

This engine maps are sneaky.

F-duct was smart.

EBD were smart.


how are those three any different though?
all were fine examples of designers using the literal meaning of the rule to get around the spirit of the rule.





#50 oetzi

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 21:03

So where does the ride height thing fall in the 'smart or sneaky' debate?