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McLaren MP4-27 Part III


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#2601 Juggles

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:35

Unlucky for Button. I must admit I did smirk a bit when I read the news, not because I wish ill on Button but because Lazy's new Hamilton-beating stick (six gearbox problems for Hamilton, none for Button since they became teammates) has taken quite a blow in just its first week. This is final confirmation that Hamilton's DNF in Singapore had nothing to do with him, unless the detractors claim gearbox faults are now communicable between sister cars. Which would make Button's gearbox change Hamilton's fault...what a dick, passing on the Gear Pox like that

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#2602 Hyatt

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:49

I've heard rumors that the problem is with the oil. Apparently it's overheating like crazy. :rolleyes:


makes you wonder if they introduced a new/modified geabox as part of the upgrade package ...

#2603 Lazy

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:49

Unlucky for Button. I must admit I did smirk a bit when I read the news, not because I wish ill on Button but because Lazy's new Hamilton-beating stick (six gearbox problems for Hamilton, none for Button since they became teammates) has taken quite a blow in just its first week. This is final confirmation that Hamilton's DNF in Singapore had nothing to do with him, unless the detractors claim gearbox faults are now communicable between sister cars. Which would make Button's gearbox change Hamilton's fault...what a dick, passing on the Gear Pox like that


In my defense it's not a new stick, just an old one I got back out of the cupboard :)

Also I never suggested that Singapore was Hamilton's fault. My argument is, and always has been, that drivers are responsible for a percentage of mechanical failures. Sometimes it's a pure manufacturing fault, sometimes it's the drivers fault and sometimes a bit of both.

I still maintain that the, now, 6-1 score, suggests Lewis is a little bit harder on his gearboxes.

#2604 Juggles

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:18

In my defense it's not a new stick, just an old one I got back out of the cupboard :)

Also I never suggested that Singapore was Hamilton's fault. My argument is, and always has been, that drivers are responsible for a percentage of mechanical failures. Sometimes it's a pure manufacturing fault, sometimes it's the drivers fault and sometimes a bit of both.

I still maintain that the, now, 6-1 score, suggests Lewis is a little bit harder on his gearboxes.


It does seem odd. In any other analysis I would consider 6-1 too much of a coincidence to be put down to sheer bad luck, so you may well be right that Hamilton has been at least partly responsible for a few of those problems. (heavy use of qualifiers there, feels less like backing down than just saying "I agree.")

#2605 f1fastestlap

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:44

In my defense it's not a new stick, just an old one I got back out of the cupboard :)

Also I never suggested that Singapore was Hamilton's fault. My argument is, and always has been, that drivers are responsible for a percentage of mechanical failures. Sometimes it's a pure manufacturing fault, sometimes it's the drivers fault and sometimes a bit of both.

I still maintain that the, now, 6-1 score, suggests Lewis is a little bit harder on his gearboxes.


You just implied...

#2606 loki0420

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:50

This remind me somehow of 2005 - again the quickest car, again so many points lost of reliability. Hope it won't end up like then with thrown WCC, this is so unfair and painful.

#2607 Lazy

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:50

You just implied...


I did? Where?

#2608 amppatel

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:18

Well if Jenson is really quick here, like some of you suggest then he should be able to stick it on pole (has the fastest car) with Hamilton second and therefore get demoted to 6th, which hopefully is still ahead of Alonso!

I can dream JB has it in him to put it on pole, on any track against Hamilton in the same car!

Edited by amppatel, 02 October 2012 - 12:18.


#2609 BillBald

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 14:14

Well if Jenson is really quick here, like some of you suggest then he should be able to stick it on pole (has the fastest car) with Hamilton second and therefore get demoted to 6th, which hopefully is still ahead of Alonso!

I can dream JB has it in him to put it on pole, on any track against Hamilton in the same car!


I'm not sure that 6th would put him ahead of Alonso, and if he went for that strategy, 7th or 8th would be more likely IMO.

I'm thinking that he might want to consider qualifying on the primes and running a long first stint. Then he could put new options for the next stint.

Of course it depends on the difference between the compounds, but if it's not too great he could start on primes around 10th or 11th. It is possible to overtake in Suzuka, although it hasn't been very easy in the past.



#2610 mlsnoopy

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:44

Unbelivable.

#2611 pizzalover

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 15:46

It's quite simple. JB has to have the drive of his life this weekend, or Mclaren are stuffed for both championships. Can he do it?

I say yes.

#2612 Clatter

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 16:36

makes you wonder if they introduced a new/modified geabox as part of the upgrade package ...


Or changed the airflow so that it's not getting cooled properly.

#2613 PinkZepStones

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:34

Or changed the airflow so that it's not getting cooled properly.



Do gearbox's need cooling, i always perceived maybe as an afterthought or minimal cooling, but they dont seem to be in need of cooling theres no combustion or anything going on in there, oil perhaps?

#2614 SR388

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:52

Do gearbox's need cooling, i always perceived maybe as an afterthought or minimal cooling, but they dont seem to be in need of cooling theres no combustion or anything going on in there, oil perhaps?


I know that several cars and trucks have dedicated transmission coolers. I figure they can get quite hot since there is a lot of metal on metal contact.

#2615 Clatter

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:53

Do gearbox's need cooling, i always perceived maybe as an afterthought or minimal cooling, but they dont seem to be in need of cooling theres no combustion or anything going on in there, oil perhaps?


Very much so. They operate in a very high temp environment.


#2616 OoxLox

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 20:45

After the last four races and the way LH and JB are both driving right now, I'd be really disappointed (and I reckon the team would be too) if it wasn't a front row lock-out at Suzuka with JB fighting back through to the podium after the gearbox penalty. Let's kick RBR's arse in the WCC! Come on McLaren - it's been a long time, and I want to know my favourite driver helped my favourite team to get the constructor's trophy before he left.

Edited by OoxLox, 02 October 2012 - 20:46.


#2617 zack1994

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 20:47

After the last four races and the way LH and JB are both driving right now, I'd be really disappointed (and I reckon the team would be too) if it wasn't a front row lock-out at Suzuka with JB fighting back through to the podium after the gearbox penalty. Let's kick RBR's arse in the WCC! Come on McLaren - it's been a long time, and I want to know my favourite driver helped my favourite team to get the constructor's trophy before he left.

:up: The chances of the constructors championship are good, lets hope they pull it off.

#2618 pingu666

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:29

with 750hp, if something starts to rub slightly, you will get a lot of heat...

singapour is also one of the hottest races, plus bumps and kerbs...

#2619 AMG FAN

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:31

In my defense it's not a new stick, just an old one I got back out of the cupboard :)

Also I never suggested that Singapore was Hamilton's fault. My argument is, and always has been, that drivers are responsible for a percentage of mechanical failures. Sometimes it's a pure manufacturing fault, sometimes it's the drivers fault and sometimes a bit of both.

I still maintain that the, now, 6-1 score, suggests Lewis is a little bit harder on his gearboxes.

yep Hamilton is an F1 driver that is too hard on gearboxes that he has broken them six times in 5yrs....do you understand how silly you guys sound sometimes? am pretty sure that a World Champion is capable of managing his gearbox in his race car.

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#2620 BigCHrome

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:08

yep Hamilton is an F1 driver that is too hard on gearboxes that he has broken them six times in 5yrs....do you understand how silly you guys sound sometimes? am pretty sure that a World Champion is capable of managing his gearbox in his race car.


Zero broken gearboxes before 2010 too, IIRC. Coincidence?

#2621 teejay

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 04:28

Zero broken gearboxes before 2010 too, IIRC. Coincidence?


Definitely a Button/Whitmarsh conspiracy.

:well:

Driver pulls paddle, gear changes. They cannot break a box by not slotting the h pattern into the right gear, etc etc.

They only way they could maybe hurt the box from their end is if they were pulling and up and down paddles together and hanging the box mid gear or the like, though I suspect it would default to neutral if they did that.

#2622 AMG FAN

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 04:44

Zero broken gearboxes before 2010 too, IIRC. Coincidence?

well unless you have another theory then i'll just rack it up to the "shit happens" list..again these guys are F1 drivers,the idea that they can't manage their gearbox,engine or tires is beyond ridiculous...i won't be saying such things out loud,oh well each to their own.

#2623 Lazy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:39

yep Hamilton is an F1 driver that is too hard on gearboxes that he has broken them six times in 5yrs....do you understand how silly you guys sound sometimes? am pretty sure that a World Champion is capable of managing his gearbox in his race car.


I bow to your clearly superior engineering expertise.

#2624 ERICTOPF1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:53

After the last four races and the way LH and JB are both driving right now, I'd be really disappointed (and I reckon the team would be too) if it wasn't a front row lock-out at Suzuka with JB fighting back through to the podium after the gearbox penalty. Let's kick RBR's arse in the WCC! Come on McLaren - it's been a long time, and I want to know my favourite driver helped my favourite team to get the constructor's trophy before he left.


Last pole position McLaren had in Suzuka was back in 1991, although many years after that they had the best car in the field! It needs a lot of work and a perfect setup to make it right!
Lets hope they do make it!

Edited by ERICTOPF1, 03 October 2012 - 06:00.


#2625 ATM_Andy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:56

I've heard rumors that the problem is with the oil. Apparently it's overheating like crazy. :rolleyes:


Overheating is an effect not the cause.

#2626 ATM_Andy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:57

Do gearbox's need cooling, i always perceived maybe as an afterthought or minimal cooling, but they dont seem to be in need of cooling theres no combustion or anything going on in there, oil perhaps?


Yes, and they have their own cooler to.

#2627 BigCHrome

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:13

Overheating is an effect not the cause.


Oh..Interesting.

Can you share any info about the rotating front wing debate that's stirring?

#2628 Oblivion

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:24

Oh..Interesting.

Can you share any info about the rotating front wing debate that's stirring?


And about transparent covers as well please :)

#2629 jrg19

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:05

Any Pictures from track yet?

#2630 bonjon1979a

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:07

In my defense it's not a new stick, just an old one I got back out of the cupboard :)

Also I never suggested that Singapore was Hamilton's fault. My argument is, and always has been, that drivers are responsible for a percentage of mechanical failures. Sometimes it's a pure manufacturing fault, sometimes it's the drivers fault and sometimes a bit of both.

I still maintain that the, now, 6-1 score, suggests Lewis is a little bit harder on his gearboxes.


I'm a bit baffled by this. There was a double gearbox failure for jb in Canada practice, the team retired the car so they could change the gearbox in Bahrain and lets not forget buttons over zealous use of the accelerator in monza that caused the fuel pump issue...

Seriously though, I think we have seen that the car does have frailties this year that has cost points. Drivers do effect the car but its not as important as the cars vulnerabilities.

#2631 Bartel

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:02

over zealous use of the accelerator caused the fuel pump issue? Whaaaaa? Have I missed something???

#2632 bonjon1979a

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:09

over zealous use of the accelerator caused the fuel pump issue? Whaaaaa? Have I missed something???


I was being sarcastic. Of course, he didn't cause the fuel pump to fail. These things just happen with these cars that operate on the limit. It's this fact rather than drivers that cause the majority of failures. This year, the 27 seems to be particularly highly strung, set up foibles for Jenson and failures for both drivers indicate it's not as bullet proof as it is fast.

#2633 Force Ten

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:11

over zealous use of the accelerator caused the fuel pump issue? Whaaaaa? Have I missed something???

Button retired because of a fault in the fuel pump. If drivers break cars then Button apparently broke the fuel pump by making it work too hard accelerating too eagerly.

#2634 bonjon1979a

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:05

Button retired because of a fault in the fuel pump. If drivers break cars then Button apparently broke the fuel pump by making it work too hard accelerating too eagerly.


Exactly. Hamilton's got the same pump in his car and his didn't fail, so it had to be Button's fault, right!

Be interesting to see if these new load tests affect Mclaren this weekend could be crucial for the championship.

#2635 AMG FAN

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:45

I bow to your clearly superior engineering expertise.

:rolleyes: i'd like to point out yet again that the guy you talk of a multiple race winner and a WDC and has won titles in all championships he has been in...don't worry it would sink in with you eventually,hopefully you won't be the laughing stock by then....obviously drivers can kill a gearbox but you have yet to point out a fact as to why Hamilton should cop some blame for the retirements other than your ridiculous "he has 6 while Jenson has 1" theory.

Edited by AMG FAN, 03 October 2012 - 11:47.


#2636 ianwit

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:15

Apparently Amus have raised the spectre of flexi and supposedly Ferrari have been making noises about Mclaren and RB

McLaren downplay flexi wing stories?

#2637 BigWicks

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:22

For once McLaren got to a loophole before Red Bull did, makes a change.

#2638 AMG FAN

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:40

For once McLaren got to a loophole before Red Bull did, makes a change.

i know!

#2639 beeclown

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:40

For once McLaren got to a loophole before Red Bull did, makes a change.


At the time Red Bull were still exploiting the previous version of flexi wings, with the endplates flexing downwards to the ground. This was probably a more effective laptime provider coupled with the larger amount of rake the blown diffusors allowed. With those banned and the front wing load tests increased and changed (non symmetrical), that method became less beneficial and feasable, so for 2012 they switched to what McLaren had been trying at Valencia 2011.

Edited by beeclown, 03 October 2012 - 12:41.


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#2640 nada12

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 13:12

This remind me somehow of 2005 - again the quickest car, again so many points lost of reliability. Hope it won't end up like then with thrown WCC, this is so unfair and painful.

Agreed, feels more and more like 2005 in that sense. Now even the driver accusations on this board are recycled, from Kimi the engine breaker to Lewis the gearbox breaker.

#2641 Seanspeed

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 13:55

makes you wonder if they introduced a new/modified geabox as part of the upgrade package ...

Kind of what I was thinking. I know that the Hockenheim update required some significant repackaging of the internals. Perhaps they're pushing things a bit in terms of cooling or new parts?

#2642 Nycco

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 14:01

At least we've done a dominant car without Newey, Tombazis, Fry and all those high salary people. I see it as a progression from 2005. :lol:

#2643 BernieEc

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:16

At least we've done a dominant car without Newey, Tombazis, Fry and all those high salary people. I see it as a progression from 2005. :lol:


how do you know Paddy Lowe and Tim Goss are not on a high salary????

#2644 argiriano

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:30

For once McLaren got to a loophole before Red Bull did, makes a change.

The front wing of the McLarens had this behaviour sins the begining of the last season. Actually every front wing have it, but I guess McLaren were exploring this around flexy-wing saga 'cause I remember after the rulling came out around Hungaroring race last year Maca presented another version of it`s front wing with slots on the pillars, making it flex backwards even more. This year we just see the next evolution of this wing without slots, just the same efect and I`m sure it is bigger than before cause it`s developed even better, tested even further (with that dolphin nose and other funny-named by fans gadgets).

#2645 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:55

Can you remember? Some races ago I said there were suggestion about the potential flexi wing of McLaren, you all downplayed it.
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103022

#2646 loki0420

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:59

Can you remember? Some races ago I said there were suggestion about the potential flexi wing of McLaren, you all downplayed it.
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103022

And McLaren as well :wave:

#2647 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 16:03

And McLaren as well :wave:


Red Bull downplayed its tricky engine mapping as well and we all know Newey admitted some weekes ago it hurted them actually.
I think that was a big help for them in Spa and could have been a help in Szuzka, as well.

#2648 loki0420

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 16:11

Red Bull downplayed its tricky engine mapping as well and we all know Newey admitted some weekes ago it hurted them actually.
I think that was a big help for them in Spa and could have been a help in Szuzka, as well.

I recall Newey admit the EBD ban hurt them but can't remember about mapping ban though maybe you're right. But it also was numerous times that ban effectively had zero effect, we shall wait if FIA is actually looking at thing.

#2649 ianwit

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 13:03

All pass new flex wing test

#2650 Oblivion

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 13:06

Picturezzz!! Desperate to see them :(