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McLaren MP4-27 Part III


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#2801 femi

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:49

hami ****ed up his own weekend with his setup choice, but it has to be said doesn't seem mclaren extracted the full potential this weekend


The reason for the setup choice was in large part due to team not having a good base setup for the drivers to work with...

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#2802 onewingedangel

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:51

The McLaren had the pace for second - just the pit calls didn't work out for Button.

Had he started P3 it would have been an easy P2, or possible win. Pace was slowed significantly by traffic.

#2803 F1FAN013

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:52

Really? Non-flexy car is slower than Red Bull by a good .5s and Ferrari by at least .2-.3s.


This championship is unpredictable. Anything can happen in Korea. Keep the faith :)

#2804 Anonymous

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:52

Really? Non-flexy car is slower than Red Bull by a good .5s and Ferrari by at least .2-.3s.


:rolleyes:

#2805 robefc

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:53

Should've left LH out longer on the softs, way longer on the hards and get him a set of softs for the final short stint.


I wasn't happy they pitted him when he was going green at the end of second stint (after initially being very worried with his pace in that stint!) but they got him past kimi...well they plus some balls of steel stuff from lewis...and realistically he was never going to chalnnege the top 4 so I think they got it right for him.

Can't help thinking the fact he was only 4 secs behind JB when they'd both pitted means the team got it wrong with him somehow.

#2806 f1rules

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:53

The reason for the setup choice was in large part due to team not having a good base setup for the drivers to work with...


yes, but in the end its the drivers decision, they act on feeling, what the numbers cannot tell, off course mclaren obviously didn't nail it this week, but hamilton/his side of the garage made it worse with their decision on setup,

Edited by f1rules, 07 October 2012 - 07:55.


#2807 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:54

Well not bad mates...... five wins and WDC - WCC is our!!!!

Keep the Faith!!!

#2808 onewingedangel

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:55

Can't help thinking the fact he was only 4 secs behind JB when they'd both pitted means the team got it wrong with him somehow.


It was a mix of bringing in Lewis early - which initially gave him the pace over Button on fresher tyres, and bringing Button in a little late - but then the fresher tyres played out towards the end of the race.


#2809 Raziel

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:57

Well not bad mates...... five wins and WDC - WCC is our!!!!

Keep the Faith!!!


You are optimistic as always! :up:  ;)

#2810 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:59

You are optimistic as always! :up: ;)


we have some more?

I hope RB won´t dominate in next races...then game over...

KTF

#2811 peroa

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:59

It was a mix of bringing in Lewis early - which initially gave him the pace over Button on fresher tyres, and bringing Button in a little late - but then the fresher tyres played out towards the end of the race.

Problem is that the track conditions came to him, the longer he drove, the better his times got, mac didn't take advantage of that fact but chose to cover a dog slow KR with a broken FW.

#2812 robefc

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:04

It was a mix of bringing in Lewis early - which initially gave him the pace over Button on fresher tyres, and bringing Button in a little late - but then the fresher tyres played out towards the end of the race.


To a certain extent but I think if they'd pitted button earlier he'd have had a better chance against koba, unless I'm missing something, koba made the gap on his fresh tyres didn't he? Think button would have still had the pace with tyres 2 or 3 laps older than they were.

#2813 GAZF1nut

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:08

Does anyone else think the pace of the RBR was flattered due to Lewis going the wrong way on setup? I think it could've been a different picture from what we see now, with Lewis and Vettel competing for the win although I think Vettel would have had him.

#2814 robefc

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:09

Does anyone else think the pace of the RBR was flattered due to Lewis going the wrong way on setup? I think it could've been a different picture from what we see now, with Lewis and Vettel competing for the win although I think Vettel would have had him.


Well that and JB's penalty.

But vettel in clean air was much quicker than button wasn't he?

#2815 montoya

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:11

Keep the faith, we are still in the hunt for the both titles!
Don't think this race shows McLaren's genuine form, the car lacks performance in high speed corners as shown in Barselona, Silverstone and here.
Still think we can fight with the Bulls on the remaining tracks :cat:

#2816 onewingedangel

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:13

To a certain extent but I think if they'd pitted button earlier he'd have had a better chance against koba, unless I'm missing something, koba made the gap on his fresh tyres didn't he? Think button would have still had the pace with tyres 2 or 3 laps older than they were.


That was my point, Lewis would have benefitted from pitting later, Button from piting earlier - the gap between the two would have been greater than 4 seconds after the stop, but would have benefitted both of them.

As soon as Kobayashi pitted for the second time, when Button was closing in on him, I couldn't see why McLaren would kee Jenson out losing time unless they thought tyres would be marginal at the end - which would be surprising considering how the tyres had lasted on a heavier fuel load. I was half expecting them to wait longer to pit to put on the softs, it was the only thing that seemed to make sense to me - but alas we don't have access to the same data as the team.

#2817 robefc

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:15

That was my point, Lewis would have benefitted from pitting later, Button from piting earlier - the gap between the two would have been greater than 4 seconds after the stop, but would have benefitted both of them.

As soon as Kobayashi pitted for the second time, when Button was closing in on him, I couldn't see why McLaren would kee Jenson out losing time unless they thought tyres would be marginal at the end - which would be surprising considering how the tyres had lasted on a heavier fuel load. I was half expecting them to wait longer to pit to put on the softs, it was the only thing that seemed to make sense to me - but alas we don't have access to the same data as the team.


They got lewis past kimi, he was never going to catch jb or koba so they get an A+ for lewis's strategy from me.

#2818 ElDictatore

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:23

Well a bit gutted after this weekend, thought the car should be superior to the rest. No pace at all against Vettel, we had luck that Alonso had a DNF and Webber got 'grosjeaned'. And today showed us that packing order and points can change drastically from one race to another, so i haven't written the WDC and WCC off yet. I'm not too optimistic either, but we'll have to see how it works out. Maybe we have just to enjoy the last 5 races with Hamilton together in one team.

#2819 peroa

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:25

LH on sky:
Strange car behaviour the whole weekend, massive understeer, at one point the car switched on and he could push.

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#2820 GAZF1nut

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:31

Keep the faith, we are still in the hunt for the both titles!
Don't think this race shows McLaren's genuine form, the car lacks performance in high speed corners as shown in Barselona, Silverstone and here.
Still think we can fight with the Bulls on the remaining tracks :cat:

I agree, as well as Lewis' poor setup. I think he is still within it but he does require some luck in the form of RBR's alternator issues haunting them and Alonso to continue with the car he has.

#2821 Masenco

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:42

I agree, as well as Lewis' poor setup. I think he is still within it but he does require some luck in the form of RBR's alternator issues haunting them and Alonso to continue with the car he has.


Yepp, also think that our car may be stronger on other tracks than this one :up:

#2822 mlsnoopy

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:42

Imagine how usefully a Singapore victory would be today.

#2823 ElDictatore

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:45

Keep the faith, we are still in the hunt for the both titles!
Don't think this race shows McLaren's genuine form, the car lacks performance in high speed corners as shown in Barselona, Silverstone and here.
Still think we can fight with the Bulls on the remaining tracks :cat:


Shouldn't the high speed corners suit the -27? Barcelona was pole with a half a second gap. Although Barcelona and Silverstone were before the big update came, so i wouldn't count that two as indicator. Moreover, today Button was very fast in the first sector with the fast corners, but the second sector really hurt us today.

#2824 superdelphinus

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:46

They are all taking it turns to be unlucky. Vettel will have some sort of dnf again before the season is out

#2825 Boxerevo

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:46

Imagine how usefully a Singapore victory would be today.

:|

So many chances lost.

#2826 peroa

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:48

Imagine how usefully a Singapore victory would be today.

Singapore was the last chance to turn it around after the Spa fiasco.

Edited by peroa, 07 October 2012 - 08:48.


#2827 race addicted

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:54

As it turned out, the car really wasn't that good here. Button pushed all he had at the end, trying to pressure Kobayashi, yet his fastest race lap, second best, is still nine tenths off Vettel's!!

#2828 skyform

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:57

Yepp, also think that our car may be stronger on other tracks than this one :up:


Yeah, really a shame, would be like this now.

Alonso 191

Vettel 183

Hamilton 177

and not to meniton the lost pole in Spain, lost podium in Germany or at least some good points and all the problematic pit-stops. This could be a really easy WDC for Lewis, like a walk in the park but the team simply blew it!


#2829 Henrik B

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:12

Okay, I'm seriously against team orders being allowed now, but why was Button allowed to finish in front of Lewis? Yes, Button has a mathematical chance for a WDC but in reality only Lewis has, and that's a very very small chance where he needs every single point he can get.

#2830 race addicted

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:16

Does anyone else think the pace of the RBR was flattered due to Lewis going the wrong way on setup? I think it could've been a different picture from what we see now, with Lewis and Vettel competing for the win although I think Vettel would have had him.


Vettel seemed to be in total control today, and drove with margin for most of the race. Had Hamilton & co. nailed the set-up; yes I think he would've been quicker than Button, as he more often than not is, but not by a big margin at all, 'cause Button usually performs well and extracts what's in the car on suzuka.

....with Red Bull debuting their DDRS, I fear they will have a handle on McLaren for atleast two, probably three of the remaining five G'sP.

#2831 BernieEc

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:19

Vettel seemed to be in total control today, and drove with margin for most of the race. Had Hamilton & co. nailed the set-up; yes I think he would've been quicker than Button, as he more often than not is, but not by a big margin at all, 'cause Button usually performs well and extracts what's in the car on suzuka.

....with Red Bull debuting their DDRS, I fear they will have a handle on McLaren for atleast two, probably three of the remaining five G'sP.


I do think Redbull have found something. Either that or the whole front wing flexi fisaco might have hurt us a bit more than Mclaren are admitting at the moment. Most probably a bit of both....

#2832 onewingedangel

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:21

Okay, I'm seriously against team orders being allowed now, but why was Button allowed to finish in front of Lewis? Yes, Button has a mathematical chance for a WDC but in reality only Lewis has, and that's a very very small chance where he needs every single point he can get.


He was trying to get an extra 3 points for the WCC by passing Kamui.

#2833 jrg19

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:23

Red Bull have found something, looks ominous but bad luck could still strike and we need to be there to capitalise.

Lewis can still do it with a lot of luck.

#2834 Alx09

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:29

Yeah, really a shame, would be like this now.

Alonso 191

Vettel 183

Hamilton 177

and not to meniton the lost pole in Spain, lost podium in Germany or at least some good points and all the problematic pit-stops. This could be a really easy WDC for Lewis, like a walk in the park but the team simply blew it!

Yup, the team blew it. This one was as made for Lewis.

#2835 onewingedangel

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:30

The DDRS is a boost for quali, but won't carry over for next year - so it's too late to develop that if it's not already in the pipeline, or can be added with little development for India.

#2836 glorius&victorius

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:43

time for whitmarsh to quit.... i am tired of his apologetic behaviour during post race interviews...

ron dennis would never portray himself as such a L.O.S.E.R

where whitmarsh says you come to race weekends to try to win races... dennis would say: we are mclaren. we win races.

#2837 peroa

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:53

time for whitmarsh to quit.... i am tired of his apologetic behaviour during post race interviews...

ron dennis would never portray himself as such a L.O.S.E.R

where whitmarsh says you come to race weekends to try to win races... dennis would say: we are mclaren. we win races.

To be a fly on the wall at the next McLarenGroup board meeting...

#2838 Henrik B

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:58

He was trying to get an extra 3 points for the WCC by passing Kamui.


Yeah, and Red Bull and Ferrari would have done what in that situation? Perhaps Red Bull could afford to be magnanimous, but Ferrari?

#2839 cooper

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:45

We need to bring something to the table quick otherwise it will be a Vettel/RBR 3 times back to back WDC and WCC. That is a painful thought considering how competitive our car has been this year! Not good to linger on the past but man we have thrown away a lot of points this season! It's a real shame as the races recently have been getting relatively dull, there does not seem to be the action that was in the first half of the season

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#2840 peroa

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:50

"Very, very unusual thing happened which I have never ever experienced before. The car was understeering like it was in qualifying, which it shouldn't have been doing, and then again it was understeering on my formation lap. So I thought it's going to be tough today.
"I struggled for the first 20 off laps, I don't know if it was before the first stop or after, and through Turn 14 I felt this thud on the rear and all of a sudden the car starting turning fantastically.

"The tyres weren't going off I was still fine," he added. "That lap that I came in the last time, when I was racing with Kimi, I said to the team 'my tyres are fine, I want to continue,' but they wanted to bring me in.


Interesting...

Edited by peroa, 07 October 2012 - 12:51.


#2841 bonjon1979a

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:56

Interesting...


Very. It was strange to watch. In the first stint the car wasn't turning in at all. It looked worse than the Force India's and Williams, let alone the saubers and Lotus cars. Then something seemed to change and he was able to pull away from Kimi. Most odd. I don't believe that the 27 has suddenly dropped to the level of FI so there must be something going on. Kind of reminds me of Malaysia when Hamilton suddenly had no pace. 'Thudding' noises are never good though!

#2842 peroa

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:07

Very. It was strange to watch. In the first stint the car wasn't turning in at all. It looked worse than the Force India's and Williams, let alone the saubers and Lotus cars. Then something seemed to change and he was able to pull away from Kimi. Most odd. I don't believe that the 27 has suddenly dropped to the level of FI so there must be something going on. Kind of reminds me of Malaysia when Hamilton suddenly had no pace. 'Thudding' noises are never good though!

Except for the last stint the pattern was very slow lap times for about 8-10 laps and then suddenly he was on Button/Koba/Massa pace or quicker just to be called in the pits.
They should've kept him out as long as the tyres were quick with just a very short last stint. KR was no issue today because he was slowing down after a few laps on new tyres and had a broken front wing.


#2843 thechin

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:08

Interesting...

I saw the interview where he said he wanted to continue as his tyres were fine - he seemed a bit annoyed at the team but kind of caught himself going off on one and stopped. Didn't the team bring him in as Kimi had a slow stop though and this was the best chance to pass him? Another lap on new tyres for kimi and the chance would have gone, surely?

#2844 Atreiu

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:17

Most downbeat weekend since Slverstone... Better be a one off.

#2845 BigWicks

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:20

don't overreact, car was the fastest at singapore.

the problem this year is mclaren have not maximised points when they have been dominant, something red bull are experts at

#2846 bauss

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 15:35

fk Red Bull have a working double DRS....so SV probably gonna start owning poles from now on.


it has a huge advantage in the coming tracks

#2847 BigCHrome

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 15:41

The problem is that all of the remaining tracks, bar Abu Dhabi, are very similar to Suzuka, especially aerodynamically. Unless McLaren bring some very nice updates they will not be beating RBR at any of those tracks.

#2848 silversurf3r

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 15:48

On the subject of Red Bulls 'new' DDRS being a potential game changer. My understanding of it is the Red Bull DDRS work by using small openings at the point where the adjustable flap meets the end plates. Then uses the openings to Chanel air through the endplates down into the beam wing and out over diffuser. Both stalling the diffuser and beam for greater straight line speed in Quali.

I'm not sure what the evidence of the existence of the RB system is, but looking at the many recent photos of the -27's rearwing. Isn't there a strange 'bulge' at the end of the adjustable flap at the point it connects to the endplates? Also didn't the gills on the rearwing change shape recently in conjunction with this? Might be completely unrelated but looking at the RB and -27 rearwings I personally believe both teams have the system in place. It could just be Redbull have been able to tweak further performance from it recently.

#2849 peroa

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 15:53

Don't fall for the DDRS story, they've been using it for a couple of races now.
Danner on RTL very convinced (I guess he talked to some people) said that it's just a red herring.
IMHO Newey finally got his baby working with the latest development package.

#2850 Massa

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:43

http://motorsport.ne...lton,50048.html


What's wrong between Button and Hamilton ?