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McLaren MP4-27 Part III


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#2901 BigCHrome

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 21:20

That might help:

Posted Image

http://www.vivaf1.co...p?featuretabs=1


That doesn't show anything except at what race each team opened an engine.

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#2902 Peter Perfect

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 21:33

Button would love that

He said that?! :eek:

#2903 Lemans

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 21:55

I never thought I would say this but in a way, I'm glad Lewis is leaving. He's a great driver but I'm tired of the bullshit and the idiotic conspiracy theories. I just want McLaren to win and if he's become toxic within the team and doesn't want to be there, well **** him and good riddance. Lewis, McLaren is more important then you.



#2904 Mandzipop

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 23:14

Posts deleted. This is the MP4-27 thread. Not the why Alonso had to have FIA inspectors in 2007 thread.

#2905 Bartel

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:38

I never thought I would say this but in a way, I'm glad Lewis is leaving. He's a great driver but I'm tired of the bullshit and the idiotic conspiracy theories. I just want McLaren to win and if he's become toxic within the team and doesn't want to be there, well **** him and good riddance. Lewis, McLaren is more important then you.

Thank god! :up:

#2906 Ashitank

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:32

I never thought I would say this but in a way, I'm glad Lewis is leaving. He's a great driver but I'm tired of the bullshit and the idiotic conspiracy theories. I just want McLaren to win and if he's become toxic within the team and doesn't want to be there, well **** him and good riddance. Lewis, McLaren is more important then you.


Yeah Seriously, McLaren really need a break, we need driver who leads the team not get involved in drama (Victimized Feeling) & conspiracy & ego issues all the time, Bye Bye Lewis. :wave:

So looking forward to having 2 mature drivers in Jb & Perez next year. :clap:

#2907 bonjon1979a

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:28

That doesn't show anything except at what race each team opened an engine.


And that some have 'opened' one more engine than others. Early engines are too old to reuse now, they won't last that long. I remember ATM Andy last year saying that engines that engines from early in the season can't be used towards the end because too much time has passed. I don't know if this is related to subtle degradation of the metal that leaves them as inoperable but he was fairly definitive on the matter. Clearly, it would've been nice to have a fresh engine for some of the tracks with long straights, with use all engines lose horsepower.

#2908 loki0420

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:14

And that some have 'opened' one more engine than others. Early engines are too old to reuse now, they won't last that long. I remember ATM Andy last year saying that engines that engines from early in the season can't be used towards the end because too much time has passed. I don't know if this is related to subtle degradation of the metal that leaves them as inoperable but he was fairly definitive on the matter. Clearly, it would've been nice to have a fresh engine for some of the tracks with long straights, with use all engines lose horsepower.

Since Belgium they have 3 new engines for 9 races at least and apart from that they could use old engines on Fridays, nothing wrong on that side for sure.

#2909 fieraku

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:53

Is Mac bringing upgrades in Korea?

#2910 race addicted

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 14:48

Since Belgium they have 3 new engines for 9 races at least and apart from that they could use old engines on Fridays, nothing wrong on that side for sure.


Everyone does!

.....


I guess they will laborate between engine six, seven and eight for the remaining races then.

#2911 ATM_Andy

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 14:58

Looks perfectly fine to me.

#2912 BillBald

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:05

Since Belgium they have 3 new engines for 9 races at least and apart from that they could use old engines on Fridays, nothing wrong on that side for sure.


It's not a great situation.

On average, each engine needs to do 2.5 races, so they've really used too many, early in the season.

Plus all the remaining circuits have at least one long straight, so there's a considerable disadvantage WRT Ferrari and a slight disadvantage WRT Red Bull.

It's not a question of reliability (hopefully), but of horsepower.



#2913 loki0420

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:32

It's not a great situation.

On average, each engine needs to do 2.5 races, so they've really used too many, early in the season.

Plus all the remaining circuits have at least one long straight, so there's a considerable disadvantage WRT Ferrari and a slight disadvantage WRT Red Bull.

It's not a question of reliability (hopefully), but of horsepower.

Maybe not great but quite OK. And we can only guess which engine was raced at singapore thats not too demanding on that front - it could be even 4th or 5th. Thats not a worry in any way.

The worry is about if RB keeps their suzuka form to the end of season or was Japan a one-off for McLaren. Engines won't decide titles this year but the pace.

#2914 BoxToOvertake

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:13

Looks perfectly fine to me.


well ,well . is that the case every year ?

#2915 Peter Perfect

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:30

It's not a great situation.

On average, each engine needs to do 2.5 races, so they've really used too many, early in the season.

Plus all the remaining circuits have at least one long straight, so there's a considerable disadvantage WRT Ferrari and a slight disadvantage WRT Red Bull.

It's not a question of reliability (hopefully), but of horsepower.

I assume it makes a difference as to which track the engine was used at.e.g.. a Monza engine will have spent most of its life at the top of its rev range as opposed to a Monaco engine.

#2916 Mandzipop

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 20:02

It's not a great situation.

On average, each engine needs to do 2.5 races, so they've really used too many, early in the season.

Plus all the remaining circuits have at least one long straight, so there's a considerable disadvantage WRT Ferrari and a slight disadvantage WRT Red Bull.

It's not a question of reliability (hopefully), but of horsepower.


I wouldn't worry too much about it. Things have moved on and with the increased reliability of engines, the reduction of loss of horsepower over the amount of races run has coincided with this.

There was something mentioned on Sky (I think it was) about it. The drop in horsepower is now very small.

I believe (I could be wrong) that it is the work that has been done with the oil companies in relation to new lubricants and the fuel that has got something to do with it.

I can't quote the source as it was mentioned during a race weekend and I can't remember which race weekend it was.

I'm quite happy to be proven wrong, but I know that it was mentioned at some point this year on TV.

#2917 mlsnoopy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:15

I never thought I would say this but in a way, I'm glad Lewis is leaving. He's a great driver but I'm tired of the bullshit and the idiotic conspiracy theories. I just want McLaren to win and if he's become toxic within the team and doesn't want to be there, well **** him and good riddance. Lewis, McLaren is more important then you.


How ever you try to spin it, there were a large number of strange decisions over the past 3 seasons. The number of mistakes done by Hamilton's side of the garage is huge, the numbers of mechanical problems for Hamilton is higher than for Button. I don't remember a brilliant strategical call for Hamilton, that would help him win races, where as all the Button wins are results of strategical calls. Like I side all the evidence points to something being not right in the team since Button came aboard.
The problem is that so far Button hasn't shown anything special. He might get the odd win when they get everything right, but so far most of the times Button got things wrong.
Button would finis any seasone any higher that he has where as Hamilton would have been much better if the team hadn't done as many mistakes as the have.

#2918 Massa

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:33

it's off topic but i want to say this to you

Button always have good strategy it's true, but a driver have the choice to choose his strategy, a driver have the final word. If Hamilton race engineer say to him " BOX NOW ", Hamilton have the choice to say " No, i will wait X laps more ".

Hamilton have to impose his choice more, i have the feeling that he just stick to what his engineers says. Ok the race engineers have data and numbers, but Hamilton drive the car, he knows more than anybody if the tyres is good enough to continue or to stop. Next year he will drive for Mercedes, if he continue like that, it will be way worse than at Mclaren, because Mercedes know very well how to ****ed up a race, or an quali.

Edited by Massa, 10 October 2012 - 09:34.


#2919 Clatter

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:40

it's off topic but i want to say this to you

Button always have good strategy it's true, but a driver have the choice to choose his strategy, a driver have the final word. If Hamilton race engineer say to him " BOX NOW ", Hamilton have the choice to say " No, i will wait X laps more ".

Hamilton have to impose his choice more, i have the feeling that he just stick to what his engineers says. Ok the race engineers have data and numbers, but Hamilton drive the car, he knows more than anybody if the tyres is good enough to continue or to stop. Next year he will drive for Mercedes, if he continue like that, it will be way worse than at Mclaren, because Mercedes know very well how to ****ed up a race, or an quali.


That's not true.

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#2920 Sinceref189

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:27

How ever you try to spin it, there were a large number of strange decisions over the past 3 seasons. The number of mistakes done by Hamilton's side of the garage is huge, the numbers of mechanical problems for Hamilton is higher than for Button. I don't remember a brilliant strategical call for Hamilton, that would help him win races, where as all the Button wins are results of strategical calls. Like I side all the evidence points to something being not right in the team since Button came aboard.
The problem is that so far Button hasn't shown anything special. He might get the odd win when they get everything right, but so far most of the times Button got things wrong.
Button would finis any seasone any higher that he has where as Hamilton would have been much better if the team hadn't done as many mistakes as the have.


Hmm the first evidence of this was Australia 2010 , when they brought Lewis in for no reason and he complained on the radio(rightly so, I woud of LOVE to have been here for that race, can someone that was joined up with autosport then give a sight into everyone's reaction's. Because i was on 606 and it did get abit choatic , It was still a brilliant race by him and JB but Mclaren for me that day just gave of a fishy smell. That crap would have never of happened if heikki was in that situation.

#2921 loki0420

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:57

Hmm the first evidence of this was Australia 2010 , when they brought Lewis in for no reason and he complained on the radio(rightly so, I woud of LOVE to have been here for that race, can someone that was joined up with autosport then give a sight into everyone's reaction's. Because i was on 606 and it did get abit choatic , It was still a brilliant race by him and JB but Mclaren for me that day just gave of a fishy smell. That crap would have never of happened if heikki was in that situation.

The reason for that was Webber's temp on new tyres.

And yes - if Hamilton is screwed by the team so often with strategy calls (as conspiracy lovers think) maybe he should be more responsible himself for decisions? Button do this all the time and Lewis just complaining for crap decision if it ain't played out well.

#2922 MP422

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:06

The reason for that was Webber's temp on new tyres.

And yes - if Hamilton is screwed by the team so often with strategy calls (as conspiracy lovers think) maybe he should be more responsible himself for decisions? Button do this all the time and Lewis just complaining for crap decision if it ain't played out well.


Yea your right he would have done better without a race engineer !! :drunk:

#2923 robefc

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:08

The reason for that was Webber's temp on new tyres.

And yes - if Hamilton is screwed by the team so often with strategy calls (as conspiracy lovers think) maybe he should be more responsible himself for decisions? Button do this all the time and Lewis just complaining for crap decision if it ain't played out well.


Not sure you weant to go there after the last race and hungary to name a couple of recent strategy blunders.

#2924 loki0420

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 14:05

Not sure you weant to go there after the last race and hungary to name a couple of recent strategy blunders.

i didn't say he always right but he has his word over decision not just blindly follow them ;) thats impression i got anyway

#2925 SamH123

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 14:07

The Mclaren struggled at Silverstone and Suzuka (two similar tracks)

Do you think these struggles were related?

#2926 senna da silva

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:51

The saddest part of 2012 is knowing how great the car has been and how poorly executed the team's use of the car has been. Lewis should have and could have easily been the world champion this year. What a waste.

There is still a slim chance but I get the feeling that McLaren would loathe Lewis winning and then moving on.

#2927 ElDictatore

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:54

The Mclaren struggled at Silverstone and Suzuka (two similar tracks)

Do you think these struggles were related?


Yes and No. I think the big update packages between them don't give a clear picture. Also they were strong at Suzuka in the first sector (at least Jenson). But the second sector was awful, which raises some questions. A connection can be surely made. What's interesting there is, that the weakness of the -27 at the beginning of the season till mid-season was the slow corner stuff, which surely has changed (Hungary, Singapore). The strong part of the car was the fast corner stuff, which they could underline in SPA recently but yes not on every circuit.
So maybe it's still that McLaren themselves don't know exactly why, maybe it's also something tire or setup-related. It appears that they can't "unlock the potential" of the car at every circuit.

#2928 BigCHrome

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:15

The reason for that was Webber's temp on new tyres.

And yes - if Hamilton is screwed by the team so often with strategy calls (as conspiracy lovers think) maybe he should be more responsible himself for decisions? Button do this all the time and Lewis just complaining for crap decision if it ain't played out well.


Button really doesn't do that, the team has ALL the information. The driver can only say whether the car is feeling good or whether the tires are going off.

#2929 stevesingo

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:22

Yes and No. I think the big update packages between them don't give a clear picture. Also they were strong at Suzuka in the first sector (at least Jenson). But the second sector was awful, which raises some questions.


According to F1.com, in qualifying, JB lost 0.2 in the 1st sector, 0.2 in the 2nd and 0.1 in the last to Vettel. In FP3, sector 2 was JBs best in comparison to Vettel.

The RBs were taking 130R flat with DRS open in qualifying, were the McLarens?


#2930 BillBald

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:34

The Mclaren struggled at Silverstone and Suzuka (two similar tracks)

Do you think these struggles were related?


Silverstone was before the recent upgrades, when the car was very different.

Suzuka it wasn't so bad, it was more that Lewis' setup wasn't good, and Jenson pit strategy was not good, leaving him stuck behind a Sauber on a track where overtaking is difficult (and FIA made it more difficult by shortening DRS zone).

Edited by BillBald, 10 October 2012 - 16:48.


#2931 ElDictatore

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:46

According to F1.com, in qualifying, JB lost 0.2 in the 1st sector, 0.2 in the 2nd and 0.1 in the last to Vettel. In FP3, sector 2 was JBs best in comparison to Vettel.

The RBs were taking 130R flat with DRS open in qualifying, were the McLarens?


I was more talking about the race. Free practice sessions don't give away anything. And if they were taking 130 flat with DRS open and McLaren couldn't, i think it would be more than 1 tenth. So really we can't say for sure, that the RB8 has more downforce or is a better car. It maybe is, it maybe isn't.

#2932 BillBald

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:47

if Hamilton is screwed by the team so often with strategy calls (as conspiracy lovers think) maybe he should be more responsible himself for decisions? Button do this all the time and Lewis just complaining for crap decision if it ain't played out well.


There's a strange conversation going on here, completely divorced from reality.

Jenson has no more control over strategy calls than Lewis, and both drivers have been affected by bad strategy this year. If anything, Jenson has had worse strategy than Lewis, as I've repeatedly pointed out.

Twice recently, Jenson has been in a podium position, and the team have pitted him and put him into traffic. And Jenson has publicly complained both times, although he tends to be a little less aggressive than Lewis can sometimes be.

The drivers need to keep complaining, because McLaren need to sort out their strategy, it should be top of their ToDo list.



#2933 superdelphinus

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 22:32

Yes and No. I think the big update packages between them don't give a clear picture. Also they were strong at Suzuka in the first sector (at least Jenson). But the second sector was awful, which raises some questions. A connection can be surely made. What's interesting there is, that the weakness of the -27 at the beginning of the season till mid-season was the slow corner stuff, which surely has changed (Hungary, Singapore). The strong part of the car was the fast corner stuff, which they could underline in SPA recently but yes not on every circuit.
So maybe it's still that McLaren themselves don't know exactly why, maybe it's also something tire or setup-related. It appears that they can't "unlock the potential" of the car at every circuit.


I think the picture is also slightly distorted because hamilton didn't get the car hooked up for whatever reason. He is generally qualifying a few tenths ahead of Jenson this season and could well have been challenging for pole

#2934 Bartel

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:48

According to F1.com, in qualifying, JB lost 0.2 in the 1st sector, 0.2 in the 2nd and 0.1 in the last to Vettel. In FP3, sector 2 was JBs best in comparison to Vettel.

The RBs were taking 130R flat with DRS open in qualifying, were the McLarens?

I dont think they were, they closed it before and reopened it on exit.

#2935 KOMORI

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:54

The saddest part of 2012 is knowing how great the car has been and how poorly executed the team's use of the car has been. Lewis should have and could have easily been the world champion this year. What a waste.


Agreed here.... It's been a terribly frustrating year in a lot of ways, watching them blow points here and there even when a win wasn't really on the cards... But such is life in F1 :(

#2936 Bartel

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:00

Agreed here.... It's been a terribly frustrating year in a lot of ways, watching them blow points here and there even when a win wasn't really on the cards... But such is life in F1 :(

After starting the year so strong, it really is dreadfully frustrating, they said consistency is the key, well where was it for most of the year?

#2937 loki0420

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 04:46

Button really doesn't do that, the team has ALL the information. The driver can only say whether the car is feeling good or whether the tires are going off.

I was referring to situations like Australia or China 2010, for dry track it really is more team responsibility to see when to make a stop considering track position and relative tyre wear.

#2938 Juggles

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:00

After starting the year so strong, it really is dreadfully frustrating, they said consistency is the key, well where was it for most of the year?


It's astounding isn't it? I remember Hamilton saying after his third consecutive 3rd in China that his target was getting on the podium at each race. Seeing how car performance has fluctuated over the season that wasn't realistic, but after his win in Canada he had at least finished in the points in every race. Since then (the seventh race) he has not finished two races in a row. The only reason Hamilton still has any chance of the title is because he won two of the four races he did finish. Two of the DNFs were crashes but in Valencia he was in the position to be taken out by Maldonado because of yet another useless pitstop by McLaren.

#2939 pitwall

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:36

Guys lets be honest now, no BS! Whitmarsh has been woeful ever since taking the team principal job, I mean if they fail to win any title with the best car and driver on the grid, Lewis, how on earth does anyone in their right mind see them winning any title in the future?

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#2940 bauss

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:41

any upgrades for Korea??

#2941 Bartel

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:53

Guys lets be honest now, no BS! Whitmarsh has been woeful ever since taking the team principal job, I mean if they fail to win any title with the best car and driver on the grid, Lewis, how on earth does anyone in their right mind see them winning any title in the future?

First post of another Lewis fanboy in the McLaren thread, giggity.

#2942 pitwall

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:05

Bartel, despite my affiliations can you honestly say I am wrong in my assessment of Whitmarsh? Has he done a sterling job at Mclaren so far? Why is it that when people raise obvious facts about Whitmarsh's shortcomings they are labeled Lewis's fan boys. If Whitmarsh was doing such a sterling job why would Lewis want to leave at all costs, even when offered a better package than at Mercedez?

#2943 mlsnoopy

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:10

First post of another Lewis fanboy in the McLaren thread, giggity.


If McLaren made less mistakes in 2010, Lewis would won the WDC, if McLaren made Less mistakes in 2012 Lewis would win the WDC. So who shoul take the blame for lossing to WDCs.

#2944 glorius&victorius

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:14

The saddest part of 2012 is knowing how great the car has been and how poorly executed the team's use of the car has been. Lewis should have and could have easily been the world champion this year. What a waste.

There is still a slim chance but I get the feeling that McLaren would loathe Lewis winning and then moving on.


indeed... if you think of it...
- McLaren arrived in Melbourne with the best car
- they completed the first half of the season with the best car
- they started the second half of the season with the best car

and still they screwed up for BOTH drivers

#2945 as65p

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:14

If McLaren made less mistakes in 2010, Lewis would won the WDC, if McLaren made Less mistakes in 2012 Lewis would win the WDC. So who shoul take the blame for lossing to WDCs.


What you conveniently overlook is, had no team made any mistakes, the results would be exactly as they are, Vettel winning 2010 and en route to win 2012 as well. It's silly to only apply this "no mistakes" alternate reality only to Hamilton and McLaren.

#2946 karlth

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:22

What you conveniently overlook is, had no team made any mistakes, the results would be exactly as they are ...


:cat:


#2947 EvanRainer

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:31

What you conveniently overlook is, had no team made any mistakes, the results would be exactly as they are, Vettel winning 2010 and en route to win 2012 as well. It's silly to only apply this "no mistakes" alternate reality only to Hamilton and McLaren.


And of course, Hamilton never makes mistakes only McLaren. Looking back just a few posts there is already an alternate reality established where Hamilton had no part in the Valencia incident at all. Getting involved in that collision was as much his fault as Maldonado's.

#2948 Atreiu

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:33

If Red Bull made less mistakes, it would have never been close.

#2949 f1fastestlap

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:42

McLaren says Hamilton had a suspension issue in the Japanese GP

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103277

Thank you McLaren...
Hopeless...

Edited by f1fastestlap, 11 October 2012 - 09:42.


#2950 Bartel

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:44

Haven't you heard? Lewis can do no wrong. Whitmarsh isnt the reason for all the teams mistakes. However, I believe him to be somewhat of a 'weak' team principle, he lacks that...killer instinct that Ron had, but in saying that, most TP"s these days are all rainbows and lollipops.