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McLaren MP4-27 Part III


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#3451 ayanate

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:19

In Singapore Mclaren knew his gearbox was faulty but they couldn't be bothered to change it and take a five-place grid drop. It was pretty silly to take the risk they took because he might have still ended up on the podium in that race. You can't win championships with such a shabby and lackadaisical approach.

Listening to Christian Horner yesterday, you could see how proud he was to tell the world that his guys work harder than any other team in F1. Whitmarsh on the other hand let's his guys slack off instead of knuckling down and doing the dirty overnight work necessary to ensure their driver has the best chance of scoring points by finishing a race.

I know it is easy for me to slate them from the outside, but they are judged by the highest standard and RB have that by miles at the moment.

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#3452 Brandz07

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:22



no Lewis in last episode of tooned

coincidence?


These things can take months to create right? I think it was done in advance to Lewis leaving and it's just a coincidence.

#3453 Tonka

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:22

Formula 1 is a business. Most of the teams are run for racing first and a business second. McLaren are foremost a business, they want to make a profit. A huge part of their income is from sponsors and McLaren work hard to keep their sponsors happy. The constant grind of attending PR events did for Hamilton and for their previous drivers too. But they won't change for Perez, he's going to be their new face for vodafone and he'll be earning a lot airmiles doing it. He'll soon learn, racing and winning comes second at McLaren.







#3454 slmk

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:30

Why would they want to work on the car if they were happy with it the way it was in P1?

Button said he (Button) was doing test runs (donkey work for development) in P1 and did not start set-up work until P2. so presumably "bits" on the car had to be swapped out in preparation for P2.

There were reports that Lewis was been kept out of the development for cycle for next years car which would be standard practice under such circumstances, and it could be that he has less chores to do for them.


I think Gary Anderson knows a little more about car set up than you do.

#3455 WitnessX

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:49

I think Gary Anderson knows a little more about car set up than you do.

So what part of my post do you agree/not agree with?

#3456 SamH123

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:01

What is this about now one working on the car between FP1 and FP2?

Hamilton said something was wrong with the car in FP2 and was way down after leading the way in FP1.

#3457 maverick69

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:06

These things can take months to create right? I think it was done in advance to Lewis leaving and it's just a coincidence.


Not really. All the characters and most of the settings will have been done months ago. But the storyboard, putting said characters in to the desired settings with animation, and getting the voiceovers will take a week at most for even a single animator using half decent software. You could do it all on a laptop TBH. You can even do this stuff online and take the mickey out of your mates. Xtranormal I think is the name.

However. It's a defo dig at Hamilton and Lauda IMO........ But one that I think it's done with the tounge in the cheek..... Albeit with Ron at the controls ;)

#3458 kpchelsea

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:26

Why would they want to work on the car if they were happy with it the way it was in P1?

Button said he (Button) was doing test runs (donkey work for development) in P1 and did not start set-up work until P2. so presumably "bits" on the car had to be swapped out in preparation for P2.

There were reports that Lewis was been kept out of the development for cycle for next years car which would be standard practice under such circumstances, and it could be that he has less chores to do for them.

As i recall Hamilton was unhappy with his car after both FP1 and FP2 so that doesn't fit the bill

#3459 teejay

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:29

He wasnt happy with it, but the car wasnt broken then.

No way would he have set the qualifying times he did, and the car was not twitchy etc until lap 18.

It may however, have been slowly failing before going bang.

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#3460 WitnessX

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:49

As i recall Hamilton was unhappy with his car after both FP1 and FP2 so that doesn't fit the bill

Which parts of what bill?

A supposition was made that there was "something strange" going on because of an alleged observation that there was a lack of work happening on Lewis's car whilst there was more on Jenson's side. I was pointing out there could be a simple reason.

Any other meanings to my post are coming from the readers imagination.

#3461 OoxLox

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:56

Let's not all jump to conclusions after one observation about one inter-session period. There are a lot of very hard working people in that garage, regardless of what some of us fans think of the way the team has been handled this year, and we'd be defaming all of them by kindling conspiracy theories based on nothing of substance.

#3462 rileyl

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:04

The consistent thing is - so much anger at the team.

The straws that broke the camels back for 2012 I guess.

Im more saddened than I am angry.

Truly a WDC and WCC year, and we have blown bother in spectacular fashion.


I am just sick of them as a long term fan! Hakkinen should have won 3 titles instead of 2; Kimi should have won 2 with them.......and Lewis, should have won this year!
Now, from next year, MW can hug his cried boy every race and tell the world it's just bad luck and "Balance problem" affect them.

#3463 MirNyet

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:07

< Tin foil hat off >

Looking at the straight facts, there is something wrong here, radically wrong. Since the move was made we have seen the following:

2 back to back parts failures on the rear of the car,
Hamltion having problems setting the car up regardless of parts issues,
Hostile comments in the press supposedly from 'team members in the garage',
Hamliton being openly mocked in press conferences by Button and Whitmarsh,
Press conferences starting without him,
Hamlitons car been seen to have no one working on it,
Mechanics noticably ignoring the Driver in the garage,
A lack of team members been seen to show support,
A very downbeat and slient Hamltion who is not spending time in the garage,
A very upbeat Button speaking about how great next year is going to be.

Now, I am sure there are more that people can add but what you have here is a pattern. Hamliton has been locked out, the team has become almost overnight a hostile place for him and he is having 'odd' problems. Talk about WCC points are silly as what we are really talking about here is people, not companies. Ron Dennis and Martin Whitmarsh do care about WCC points, team mechanics who think Button will score anyway don't. People do bad things - angry people do really bad things. Martin Whitmarsh leads the team but he is not everywhere, does not oversee everything - does not check every nut, every bolt etc... Something is wrong at McLaren and the sooner this season is over the better as this could end in a bad accident for Hamliton and whoever is around him when another part breaks. Watching that car wiggle on the straight was horrific - lord only knows how it must have handled in the fast corners. Both McLaren and Hamliton are lucky it did not end up in the wall at speed as right now serious questions would be being asked and I have an awful feeling we wouldn't like the answers.

All in all, even without the tin foil hat - something is wrong here.

#3464 Guizotia

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:07

Let's not all jump to conclusions after one observation about one inter-session period. There are a lot of very hard working people in that garage, regardless of what some of us fans think of the way the team has been handled this year, and we'd be defaming all of them by kindling conspiracy theories based on nothing of substance.


:up:

#3465 Ashitank

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:51

Formula 1 is a business. Most of the teams are run for racing first and a business second. McLaren are foremost a business, they want to make a profit. A huge part of their income is from sponsors and McLaren work hard to keep their sponsors happy. The constant grind of attending PR events did for Hamilton and for their previous drivers too. But they won't change for Perez, he's going to be their new face for vodafone and he'll be earning a lot airmiles doing it. He'll soon learn, racing and winning comes second at McLaren.



:up: + 1000.. I still remember Team members running out with a Black coloured Mclaren flag with Mclaren logo on it during Mika Hakinnen days, today Mclaren is just one big corporate pig, cant find a single Mclaren flag flying high in grand stands unlike sea of Ferrari flags, I can only see sponsor names on every thing team does less & less Mclaren, I understand team needs to make money but I hope they dont forget about being a race team first then anything else..

#3466 David1976

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:02

In my heart of hearts I cannot see this happening on Ron's watch. He would have the team spinning on the back of such a poor weekend.

Whitmarsh gives me the impression that he'd pat the teams on their backs for a good effort regardless of the result.

Whatever is said about Hamilton/McLaren Team Dynamics, Hamilton has been their most successful driver since Mika, arguably their most talented since Senna, yet they have only got one WDC to show for it. It is a poor return this year especially given the advantages the car showed in the first 3-4 races of this season.

For me the race team is the issue. I would imagine old Ron still pops his head around doors at Woking and keeps them honest but raceside they seem to be a shambles in the last few years. Where they have lost points this year it has often been over silly niggly issues.

It is almost akin to Ferrari in the late 80's.

1) McLaren do not seem to be getting the best out of their current package at race weekends.
2) Whitmarsh seems weak.
3) Team Dynamics are clearly not great - cue Whitmarsh.
4) McLaren have backed the wrong horse.

Sadly, I don't think these series of events will be solved quickly.


#3467 LuisPena

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:23

Whitmarsh says "McLaren not giving up on championship just yet"

How the F^$5# we are suppose to believe that?


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103457

#3468 SunnyENTP

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:34

Whitmarsh says "McLaren not giving up on championship just yet"

How the F^$5# we are suppose to believe that?


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103457



The same way you are supposed to believe Spinmarsh that they had no plan B two days before they announced Perez :lol:

#3469 superdelphinus

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:38

it is quite sad really. i guess hamilton, alonso and vettel have about equal bad mechanical/ being crashed into luck by now, but the terrible operational issues early on in the season (and which still persist to an extent) have led the standings to look the way they do now, which the other two simply haven't had to contend with.

i still the think the route of it is a pedantic inflexibility in the way mclaren go about doing things. a relentless focus on pure data at the expense of the bigger picture

Edited by superdelphinus, 15 October 2012 - 15:39.


#3470 HopkinsonF1

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:42

Lewis, should have won this year!


Not to mention the gearbox failure in the final race of his rookie season while he was leading the championship comfortably.

#3471 superdelphinus

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:44

The same way you are supposed to believe Spinmarsh that they had no plan B two days before they announced Perez :lol:


at other stages of the championship you could be inclined to agree with him - just look how quickly vettel has come from being behind hamilton, to being miles ahead and leading the championship?

something just seems different with this rbr form now though, they just seem to have got everything sorted bang on to 2010/11 levels for the final quarter. Can't imagine vettel having a dnf, 5th and 10th in the next three races personally with hamilton winning them all, which is what it would take

#3472 Boxerevo

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:48

The same way you are supposed to believe Spinmarsh that they had no plan B two days before they announced Perez :lol:

:D

#3473 TifosiUSA

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:30

I thought it was much more enjoyable to watch alonso lose the championship lead.

You mad! :rotfl: :rotfl:

#3474 TifosiUSA

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:40

I'm so f-----g relieved to not have to support Mclaren anymore. The frustration when Kimi drove for them with an unreliable car has continued with Hamilton it's just been crap decisions, bad strategy and technical problem after technical problem.

Mercedes here I come

Speaking as a Schumacher fan, have fun!

#3475 Mandzipop

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 18:58

This is the Mclaren MP4-27 thread as it says in the title. It is not about previous drivers.

Please stay on topic.

#3476 ElDictatore

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:33

In Singapore Mclaren knew his gearbox was faulty but they couldn't be bothered to change it and take a five-place grid drop. It was pretty silly to take the risk they took because he might have still ended up on the podium in that race. You can't win championships with such a shabby and lackadaisical approach.


They didn't know it in Quali. First appearances were in the race, a few laps before it completely failed.

#3477 Seanspeed

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:35

something just seems different with this rbr form now though, they just seem to have got everything sorted bang on to 2010/11 levels for the final quarter.

Well people, including myself, were saying the same thing about Mclaren prior to Suzuka. Things can still change. Mclaren might still win some races this year, even if the WDC is gonna be pretty difficult now.

#3478 BigCHrome

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:57

Well people, including myself, were saying the same thing about Mclaren prior to Suzuka. Things can still change. Mclaren might still win some races this year, even if the WDC is gonna be pretty difficult now.


McLaren were still screwing up the setups and having dumb strategy mistakes even when the car was fast.

#3479 Anonymous

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 22:36

Formula 1 is a business. Most of the teams are run for racing first and a business second. McLaren are foremost a business, they want to make a profit. A huge part of their income is from sponsors and McLaren work hard to keep their sponsors happy. The constant grind of attending PR events did for Hamilton and for their previous drivers too. But they won't change for Perez, he's going to be their new face for vodafone and he'll be earning a lot airmiles doing it. He'll soon learn, racing and winning comes second at McLaren.


MY SIDES

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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#3480 SNiko

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 02:04

Formula 1 is a business. Most of the teams are run for racing first and a business second. McLaren are foremost a business, they want to make a profit. A huge part of their income is from sponsors and McLaren work hard to keep their sponsors happy. The constant grind of attending PR events did for Hamilton and for their previous drivers too. But they won't change for Perez, he's going to be their new face for vodafone and he'll be earning a lot airmiles doing it. He'll soon learn, racing and winning comes second at McLaren.


There are no other way. McLaren is the only top team which doesn't have strong financial support. Ferrari is supported by Ferrari, Mercedes by Mercedes, Lotus by Renault, RedBull by RedBull. The only income for McLaren is sponsors (Vodafone + many small sponsors), and drivers should participate in their PR events to make them happy. Of course McLaren can act like Williams - have less sponsors, less PR events, less money, worse car and worse results. Will you like this?

#3481 pinkypants

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 02:44

< Tin foil hat off >

Looking at the straight facts, there is something wrong here, radically wrong. Since the move was made we have seen the following:

2 back to back parts failures on the rear of the car,
Hamltion having problems setting the car up regardless of parts issues,
Hostile comments in the press supposedly from 'team members in the garage',
Hamliton being openly mocked in press conferences by Button and Whitmarsh,
Press conferences starting without him,
Hamlitons car been seen to have no one working on it,
Mechanics noticably ignoring the Driver in the garage,
A lack of team members been seen to show support,
A very downbeat and slient Hamltion who is not spending time in the garage,
A very upbeat Button speaking about how great next year is going to be.

Now, I am sure there are more that people can add but what you have here is a pattern. Hamliton has been locked out, the team has become almost overnight a hostile place for him and he is having 'odd' problems. Talk about WCC points are silly as what we are really talking about here is people, not companies. Ron Dennis and Martin Whitmarsh do care about WCC points, team mechanics who think Button will score anyway don't. People do bad things - angry people do really bad things. Martin Whitmarsh leads the team but he is not everywhere, does not oversee everything - does not check every nut, every bolt etc... Something is wrong at McLaren and the sooner this season is over the better as this could end in a bad accident for Hamliton and whoever is around him when another part breaks. Watching that car wiggle on the straight was horrific - lord only knows how it must have handled in the fast corners. Both McLaren and Hamliton are lucky it did not end up in the wall at speed as right now serious questions would be being asked and I have an awful feeling we wouldn't like the answers.

All in all, even without the tin foil hat - something is wrong here.



Hamilton should get the FIA inspectors in or take gardening leave.

#3482 teejay

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:09

There are no other way. McLaren is the only top team which doesn't have strong financial support. Ferrari is supported by Ferrari, Mercedes by Mercedes, Lotus by Renault, RedBull by RedBull. The only income for McLaren is sponsors (Vodafone + many small sponsors), and drivers should participate in their PR events to make them happy. Of course McLaren can act like Williams - have less sponsors, less PR events, less money, worse car and worse results. Will you like this?


Lotus is not supported by Renault anymore.

As for McLaren -

WDC prizemoney (huge amount of dollars for top 1-3 teams)
Sponsors
McLaren Automotive (though this isnt big atm)
McLaren motorsport support (spec ecus to F1, Nasar, etc, etc)
Racing team support - for the 12c race cars etc
Tech agreements - FI and Marussia both worth a few million each

Doesnt matter who sponsors the team, they will always be PR heavy - its the way they do things.

#3483 femi

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:50

Lotus is not supported by Renault anymore.

As for McLaren -

WDC prizemoney (huge amount of dollars for top 1-3 teams)
Sponsors
McLaren Automotive (though this isnt big atm)
McLaren motorsport support (spec ecus to F1, Nasar, etc, etc)
Racing team support - for the 12c race cars etc
Tech agreements - FI and Marussia both worth a few million each

Doesnt matter who sponsors the team, they will always be PR heavy - its the way they do things.


I don't think all these are enough to compete with RB, Ferrari, and Merc. Their drivers do promotional events too...

#3484 Tonka

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:10

There are no other way. McLaren is the only top team which doesn't have strong financial support. Ferrari is supported by Ferrari, Mercedes by Mercedes, Lotus by Renault, RedBull by RedBull. The only income for McLaren is sponsors (Vodafone + many small sponsors), and drivers should participate in their PR events to make them happy. Of course McLaren can act like Williams - have less sponsors, less PR events, less money, worse car and worse results. Will you like this?


For all their income, McLaren have won only 1 title in 13 years. Are they really worried - I don't think so. Their culture of looking right, but not being right has lost them dozens of races and several drivers. Do they care, have they learned by their mistakes - no.



#3485 Tonka

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:13

I don't think all these are enough to compete with RB, Ferrari, and Merc. Their drivers do promotional events too...


IIRC, these teams don't expect more than a dozen PR days a year out of their drivers. McLaren drivers do one a week and have to attend multiple events on each day.



#3486 mlsnoopy

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:39

Doesn't McLaren have some military contracts? That bring in big money.

#3487 maverick69

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:41

Doesn't McLaren have some military contracts? That bring in big money.


http://www.mclarenap...chnologies.com/

#3488 Timstr11

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 13:12

Lotus is not supported by Renault anymore.

As for McLaren -

WDC prizemoney (huge amount of dollars for top 1-3 teams)
Sponsors
McLaren Automotive (though this isnt big atm)
McLaren motorsport support (spec ecus to F1, Nasar, etc, etc)
Racing team support - for the 12c race cars etc
Tech agreements - FI and Marussia both worth a few million each

Doesnt matter who sponsors the team, they will always be PR heavy - its the way they do things.

You mean WCC.
The WDC is just a marketing bonus. teams receive no prize money for that.

#3489 teejay

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:56

Sure do - was busy at work while I typed that up.

Also havnt mentioned that a percentage of the team is owned by the oil rich .. they are not shy of dollars.

#3490 femi

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 17:31

Sure do - was busy at work while I typed that up.

Also havnt mentioned that a percentage of the team is owned by the oil rich .. they are not shy of dollars.



Aren't they? They don't have the bucks to compete with the top 3 teams. I remember MW saying the reason they couldn't hold to staff leaving for Ferrari was because they could not compete on salaries. If the oil money was flowing into Mclaren coffers as was suggested, why drive their drivers nuts with so much PR appearances.

#3491 Bartel

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 20:00

So...Ferrari have a massive update coming, I guess its safe to say we're going to lose P2 in the WCC too? Lovely.

#3492 JonathanProc

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 20:46

So...Ferrari have a massive update coming, I guess its safe to say we're going to lose P2 in the WCC too? Lovely.


Red Bull 367
Ferrari 290
McLaren 284

We already have.

#3493 Bartel

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 21:13

Red Bull 367
Ferrari 290
McLaren 284

We already have.

Should have worded that better, I meant at seasons end. We have been bridesmaid for the past 2 years, I dont want to slip back to an even worse 3rd.

#3494 PinkZepStones

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 21:31

Ferraris update is totally irrelevant, Mclarens operations have been utterly embarrassing and that is an understatement, the only two consistents this season have been Lewis' stellar performances and ridiculous management in races, one will not be there next year and one will......no prizes for guessing which.

#3495 thesham01

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 22:07

Way too early to be spouting on about McLaren sabotaging Hamilton, if this remains for 3 of the next 4 then we can start talking, but until then it's just a continuation of horrid McLaren form.

As for all the mechanics etc ignoring Hamilton or whatever; do you blame them? From their point of view he has left them at their biggest time of need. That doesn't mean they are going to make it worse by sabotaging him.

Edited by thesham01, 16 October 2012 - 22:08.


#3496 study

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 23:18

From their point of view he has left them at their biggest time of need.


They're blaming the wrong person then, they need to be looking at MW who removed lewis race team, spoke about equality and concentrated on building McLaren around Button to the detriment of the team and best driver.

#3497 BillBald

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 23:20

Way too early to be spouting on about McLaren sabotaging Hamilton, if this remains for 3 of the next 4 then we can start talking, but until then it's just a continuation of horrid McLaren form.

As for all the mechanics etc ignoring Hamilton or whatever; do you blame them? From their point of view he has left them at their biggest time of need. That doesn't mean they are going to make it worse by sabotaging him.


ATM_Andy's reaction to Perez replacing Lewis:
Really excited!!
http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5943202

I suppose we don't know who ATM_Andy really is, whether he really is Andy Latham, or even works for McLaren.

#3498 SNiko

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 23:26

Lotus is not supported by Renault anymore.

As for McLaren -

WDC prizemoney (huge amount of dollars for top 1-3 teams)
Sponsors
McLaren Automotive (though this isnt big atm)
McLaren motorsport support (spec ecus to F1, Nasar, etc, etc)
Racing team support - for the 12c race cars etc
Tech agreements - FI and Marussia both worth a few million each

Doesnt matter who sponsors the team, they will always be PR heavy - its the way they do things.


WCC - not too much, and all tops receives it.
McLaren Automotive, McLaren motorsport support, Racing team support - do you really believe McLaren has any revenue from these? These units are barely pay for themselves, moreover, McLaren Automotive is a deep financial hole at the moment.
Tech agreements - again, not too much, max 10 millions per year. Ferrari, RB, Mercedes - all of them has tech agreements too.

#3499 study

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 23:27

ATM_Andy's reaction to Perez replacing Lewis:
Really excited!!
http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5943202

I suppose we don't know who ATM_Andy really is, whether he really is Andy Latham, or even works for McLaren.


strange, I can't say I find Perez exciting, he can look after his tyres in a car that looks after its tyres, but not really being blown away by him.

It'd be interesting to know where it went wrong between Lewis and the team. I know button is very political and able to build a team around himself but there must be more to it then that plus it goes back quite a while, does it go back to the dave ryan incident?

I think all the way back to Turkey incident there was sign of team/lewis issues or maybe even when he got stuffed with strategy in australia.

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#3500 whitevisor

whitevisor
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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:01

They're blaming the wrong person then, they need to be looking at MW who removed lewis race team, spoke about equality and concentrated on building McLaren around Button to the detriment of the team and best driver.


How do you know Andy's not been playing you guys all along? I could call myself Andy and say I work from Mclaren and give vague answers to everything. Mods please excuse me for discussing another poster, but where can I get some proof that Andy is the real deal? Pics? Twitter with pics logged in to Autosport in MTC? Facebook?

Anyway, even the most disloyal Hamilton engineers/mechanics/Saboteurs aren't going to be "really excited" that Perez is coming. Well maybe Andy is a Mexican of some sort, but I can't really see the excitement in Perez when he is replacing a gap left by the most electrifying driver in the history of F1.