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McLaren MP4-27 Part III


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#3801 EvanRainer

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:03

You should be beaming! It will be the most uncompetitive mclaren line up since the Peugeot engineered days!


When do you mean exactly? Because you may be defeating your own point here.


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#3802 ZooL

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:06

I mentioned macca's development rate being a myth after Japan and drew a response from someone mentioning how quick we were in singapore.

Well now I think it's reasonable to conclude that this is the only year since 2008 that macca have started with the quickest car and it is quite clearly nowhere near the quickest now.
In 2010 and 2011 we were no closer to the RBs by the end of the season either and still behind ferrari.
2009 is a complete outlier due to haveing a fundamental problem with the car imo.

The above is not meant as a bash at the team but I am sick of hearing, not least from the team itself, about their in season development prowess that does not mesh with reality.

My view is that McLaren have always been behind Ferrari in development terms say since 98/99. And when RBR came on in the scene in 09 with the big rule changes we've been behind them too.

I think this year McLaren have fell out of sync with the upgrades. They had a period in the season where they didn't seemingly bring any upgrades where I think some of us thought they spent alot of that time looking into Button's problems. When they brought the upgrades it put them back on an equal footing, but it was late coming. In that time RBR brought a 2nd large upgrade, and Ferrari's 2nd large one too - which for them didn't work exactly how they expected, and is still to come. I don't think McLaren even had an equivalent 2nd large upgrade pack.

My gut instincts still tell me falling behind in development this year was because of looking into Button's problems heavily. It was such a long stretch that many of us were saying we visually couldn't see anything different for ages, which coincided with Button's issues.
I also had a gut instinct that McLaren got too cocky earlier in the season because they had such a pace advantage (but were throwing it away with operational errors) they probably felt they didn't need to push as hard development wise because they were way ahead in pure performance terms (in Hamilton's hands). Everyone then catching them up has caught them by surprise.

Edited by ZooL, 28 October 2012 - 12:08.


#3803 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:09

I think you could be right, its poor they was more interested in fixing buttons issues then they was challenging for the WDC and WCC and in the end they have got nothing.

#3804 silversurf3r

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:14

It appears as though the Mclaren is always lacking pace at the beggining of races and then spends the rest of the race playing catch up. Can't remember the last time I actually saw Lewis in particular make up places rather than lose them at the start. Any theories? The Ferrari pace in the straights today was scary, no body could live with them.

#3805 ZooL

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:16

I think you could be right, its poor they was more interested in fixing buttons issues then they was challenging for the WDC and WCC and in the end they have got nothing.

and lost Hamilton in the process, arguably the fastest guy in F1.

Even I wish Button never had the setup problems because its had such wide repercussions.

When I look at the big picture in the end the only winner to come out of all this is Button whichever way you look at it.

#3806 peroa

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:18

It appears as though the Mclaren is always lacking pace at the beggining of races and then spends the rest of the race playing catch up. Can't remember the last time I actually saw Lewis in particular make up places rather than lose them at the start. Any theories? The Ferrari pace in the straights today was scary, no body could live with them.


General lack of traction out of slow corners because of a stiff car probably coupled with taking time to heat the tyres properly and then you add rumuored higher starting weight becasue of the merc engine.

#3807 toxicfusion

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:21

General lack of traction out of slow corners because of a stiff car probably coupled with taking time to heat the tyres properly and then you add rumuored higher starting weight becasue of the merc engine.



But then wouldn't they have suffered around Singapore if traction was an issue?

#3808 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:21

I mentioned macca's development rate being a myth after Japan and drew a response from someone mentioning how quick we were in singapore.

Well now I think it's reasonable to conclude that this is the only year since 2008 that macca have started with the quickest car and it is quite clearly nowhere near the quickest now.
In 2010 and 2011 we were no closer to the RBs by the end of the season either and still behind ferrari.
2009 is a complete outlier due to haveing a fundamental problem with the car imo.

The above is not meant as a bash at the team but I am sick of hearing, not least from the team itself, about their in season development prowess that does not mesh with reality.


:mad:

But the tiles at the MTC are so shiny and the pipes are laid out uniformly and all the light bulbs are identical and......

#3809 Massa

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:26

MW and Button said the car was slow on the soft tyres all the weekend. I don't think it's a fundamental problem of the car, i think the soft tyres didn't work on the car this weekend.

#3810 peroa

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:29

But then wouldn't they have suffered around Singapore if traction was an issue?

Well, it is again since Japan, which coincides with Adrian getting his sh** together and the new FW test.
IMHO, they can't set up the car like they did before that and have fallen behind Ferrari as well.

#3811 SamH123

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:36

Did you guys see what Alonso just said about Mclaren

"Inside that team there is not very good atmosphere at the moment"

It was strange because he was talking about how HAM/BUT were fighting with each other and didn't see Alonso, so I don't know what the atmosphere has to do with on track action

What I'm saying is maybe ALO knows a small detail that we don't?

Edited by SamH123, 28 October 2012 - 12:37.


#3812 robefc

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:38

Did you guys see what Alonso just said about Mclaren

"Inside that team there is not very good atmosphere at the moment"

It was strange because he was talking about how HAM/BUT were fighting with each other and didn't see Alonso, so I don't know what the atmosphere has to do with on track action

What I'm saying is maybe ALO knows a small detail that we don't?


Yes - having a teammate to fight makes things harder, a team with a good atmosphere shouldn't have that problem :D

#3813 Massa

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:39

I think he said that because Button and Hamilton were fighting hard, and because of this fight they nearly let pass Alonso. I don't think it was a good choice to fight like that, at the start of the race with Alonso and Raikkonen right behind.

#3814 10e10

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:39

But then wouldn't they have suffered around Singapore if traction was an issue?


Singapore looks so far away now, the difference is abysmal. McLaren managed to stay behind Ferrari when they were supposed to lead the WCC.

#3815 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:40

MW and Button said the car was slow on the soft tyres all the weekend. I don't think it's a fundamental problem of the car, i think the soft tyres didn't work on the car this weekend.


The softs worked great for Hamilton in the 2nd half of his first stint on them, he was going 4 tenths quicker than JB was in his fresh primes, despite his tyres being over 30 laps old. The Macca is obviously a sensitive car regarding tyre temps.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 28 October 2012 - 12:44.


#3816 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:42

. The Macca is obviously a sensitive car regarding tyre temps.


Is there anything that the Macca isn't sensitive too? Its being like that the last few years, look at it wrongly it has a strop and is poor.

#3817 BernieEc

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:43

I think the new front wing load tests hurt them much more than they are admitting. coupled with the Redbull DDRS and exhaust revamp......its goodnight baby.......

#3818 Alx09

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:43

I can't believe they didn't sign the Hulk.

Couldn't agree more with you.

#3819 BernieEc

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:45

Is there anything that the Macca isn't sensitive too? Its being like that the last few years, look at it wrongly it has a strop and is poor.


I agree....and that also includes non-car related things....pitstops......rear jackman.......weather.....underfueling.......what a mess...........

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#3820 ZooL

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:47

The softs worked great for Hamilton in the 2nd half of his first stint on them, he was going 4 tenths quicker than JB was in his fresh primes, despite his tyres being over 30 laps old. The Macca is obviously a sensitive car regarding tyre temps.

I think its more of a problem for Button not having adapated his driving style as well as others.
What you just said wasn't a problem in the other MP4-27 so its not the 'Macca'.

#3821 Atreiu

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:49

I can't believe they didn't sign the Hulk.


x2

Or was he snatched before Mclaren realized Lewis was gone? Certaily didn't help that Lewis' non contract dragged for so long.

Edited by Atreiu, 28 October 2012 - 12:50.


#3822 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:50

x2

Or was he snatched before Mclaren realized Lewis was gone? Certaily didn't help that Lewis' non contract dragged for so long.


Isn't Hulk stopping at Force India?

#3823 Massa

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:53

The softs worked great for Hamilton in the 2nd half of his first stint on them, he was going 4 tenths quicker than JB was in his fresh primes, despite his tyres being over 30 laps old. The Macca is obviously a sensitive car regarding tyre temps.



It work because Hamilton was very slow on the first part of the stint, he was conserving his tyres.

#3824 ZooL

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:53

I can't believe they didn't sign the Hulk.

He's too good. His CV is fantastic. Even Brundle said he would have went for Hulk.

I believe Whitmarsh is trying to make Button the #1 driver. His interview said Perez has to learn from Button. Whitmarsh has already started the games, putting Perez in his place and making sure he understands what his role his - which is to support Button.

#3825 whitevisor

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:53

I think the new front wing load tests hurt them much more than they are admitting. coupled with the Redbull DDRS and exhaust revamp......its goodnight baby.......


That is just media blabber. Mclaren were not affected by such tests, Mclaren were always in line with all front wing flexing limits.
All we are seeing are Ferrari and RB with better upgrades. Singapre the car was blazing, Japan - the car was very good but for a suspension failure, Korea the car was Ok until that roll bar debacle.

Today in India, all there was was the tyres taking a really long time to come into the temperature range.

I have much hope for the more abrassive, warmer tracks coming up.

#3826 NateF

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:55

He's too good. His CV is fantastic. Even Brundle said he would have went for Hulk.

I believe Whitmarsh is trying to make Button the #1 driver. His interview said Perez has to learn from Button. Whitmarsh has already started the games, putting Perez in his place and making sure he understands what his role his - which is to support Button.

I thought Perez supported by a billionaire was more of deciding factor

#3827 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:55

He's too good. His CV is fantastic. Even Brundle said he would have went for Hulk.

I believe Whitmarsh is trying to make Button the #1 driver. His interview said Perez has to learn from Button. Whitmarsh has already started the games, putting Perez in his place and making sure he understands what his role his - which is to support Button.



I wonder what it is about Button that whitmarsh supports him so much?



#3828 whitevisor

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:59

He's too good. His CV is fantastic. Even Brundle said he would have went for Hulk.

I believe Whitmarsh is trying to make Button the #1 driver. His interview said Perez has to learn from Button. Whitmarsh has already started the games, putting Perez in his place and making sure he understands what his role his - which is to support Button.


Maybe Whitmarsh just has an affinity for mediocrity. Reminds me of my boss; always buying the mediocre equipment whenever we have a new project. He loathes flashiness and extreme quality.. says: its too expensive! and we don't need that! we can get along with this one! 75% speed at a steady pace should be enough to meet our targets! :drunk:

I feel lilke Hamilton at Mclaren! Maybe time for a new job? :rotfl:

#3829 BernieEc

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:04

Maybe Whitmarsh just has an affinity for mediocrity. Reminds me of my boss; always buying the mediocre equipment whenever we have a new project. He loathes flashiness and extreme quality.. says: its too expensive! and we don't need that! we can get along with this one! 75% speed at a steady pace should be enough to meet our targets! :drunk:

I feel lilke Hamilton at Mclaren! Maybe time for a new job? :rotfl:



I guess that explains the Perez signing then...... :)

#3830 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:08

It work because Hamilton was very slow on the first part of the stint, he was conserving his tyres.


I don't think that was the case, he radioed in specifically to say they started to work much better.

#3831 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:10

I think its more of a problem for Button not having adapated his driving style as well as others.
What you just said wasn't a problem in the other MP4-27 so its not the 'Macca'.


I agree JB suffers with this more, but Hamilton was dropping a second per lap in the first 20 laps or so then started going much faster and gained on the leaders a little and began to drop JB significantly, so it is a problem with the Macca, clearly.

#3832 PARAZAR

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:11

More Jenson bashing, in the McLaren thread. They did the best they could with what they had today. Both lost a position. Both got solid points. Great pitstop for Lewis with the steering change, not a great one for Jenson. That's about it. On to next week.

#3833 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:13

Is there anything that the Macca isn't sensitive too? Its being like that the last few years, look at it wrongly it has a strop and is poor.


I know, IMO it all predates to Singapore 2009 when McLaren found a lot of lap time by copying RB's stiff suspension setup (at that time an unorthodox thing to do at a bumpy street circuit) and since then they've taken it to the nth degree and have had very stiff cars that are very pitch sensitive, and work the tyre hard over one lap but often overwork the tyres in a race.

#3834 jrg19

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:15

Its going to be a long season in 2013 with the driver line up, I hope I'm proven wrong.

#3835 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:15

Before that McLaren was best at traction and mechanical grip, since 2008 we've never had that and its being replaced with this stiff suspension that can't ride kerbs, who came or left that started this massive change in philosophy?

#3836 hello86

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:17

IMO they should have taken Kimi and Hulk instead of Perez. He is only good when he doesn´t have to start inside of the top 10 and at race where starting on the harder tyres at the first stint and using the softer, faster tyres at the and has been a big advantage.

Maybe Macca should have waited a few more weeks after the decision of Lewis joining Mercedes

#3837 Viktoria

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:23

I wonder what it is about Button that whitmarsh supports him so much?



Not only you, not only you!

Maybe JB is the better person, better character, maybe Whitmarsh is more related to JB.. maybe all this!! But Lewis is by fare the better driver! And at the very very end.. Mclaren is not a welfare center its called a MOTOR RACING TEAM and I thought the wanna fight for championships .. that's what I dont get it!!

#3838 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:27

Well thats the thing, some team managers get two pally pally with the drivers and seem to forget they are employees and there job is to perform and come first on the track, the teams job is to give them the best tools to do that.

If I do well at work, my boss doesn't come and give me a hug, if he did I'd think he'd gone queer!

Whitmarsh job is to manage the drivers and team to best enable this and this is where I think he has let his personal feelings get in the way.

#3839 Massa

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:27

IMO they should have taken Kimi and Hulk instead of Perez. He is only good when he doesn´t have to start inside of the top 10 and at race where starting on the harder tyres at the first stint and using the softer, faster tyres at the and has been a big advantage.

Maybe Macca should have waited a few more weeks after the decision of Lewis joining Mercedes



Or perhaps it was too late. MW said they watch for FI drivers but then they choose Perez. I think when they know that Hamilton was going to Mercedes, they want to pick Hulkenberg, but perhaps Hulkenberg had already sign with Sauber... So Sauber had been very smart... They let Perez and take a better driver.

If Vettel didn't go to Ferrari for 2014, i see Hulkenberg going at Ferrari... If it's true, it will be hard for some Mclaren fans.. :(

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#3840 hello86

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:32

Or perhaps it was too late. MW said they watch for FI drivers but then they choose Perez. I think when they know that Hamilton was going to Mercedes, they want to pick Hulkenberg, but perhaps Hulkenberg had already sign with Sauber... So Sauber had been very smart... They let Perez and take a better driver.

If Vettel didn't go to Ferrari for 2014, i see Hulkenberg going at Ferrari... If it's true, it will be hard for some Mclaren fans.. :(


So Hülkenberg might regret joining Sauber as well! I don´t think that Di Resta would have been a better choice than Perez.

I wonder whether they did ever consider taking Kimi back? Or maybe I am too biased as I am a big fan of Kimi but he would I think that him and JB would have been a better pairing than Perez and JB.

#3841 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:35

Nope, I don't buy it for one minute. I doubt whitmarsh even looked at Hulk.

I think he was swept in the hype, maybe Ferrari were right, I think McLaren have another Heikki

Edited by study, 28 October 2012 - 13:44.


#3842 jrg19

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:37

Kimi back would have been great, having one of my favourite drivers back with the team would have been perfect.

Next season will be hard to get excited about supporting JB and Perez.

#3843 thesham01

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:00

More Jenson bashing, in the McLaren thread. They did the best they could with what they had today. Both lost a position. Both got solid points. Great pitstop for Lewis with the steering change, not a great one for Jenson. That's about it. On to next week.


I have a feeling it will be worse next season, unless they build a RB 2011 car.

#3844 MirNyet

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:12

I have a feeling it will be worse next season, unless they build a RB 2011 car.


Honestly - I am expecting a poor couple of years for McLaren - the signs are all there right now. Really, it might be best to just grin and bare it until they sort themselves out. Next years drivers are dull/average - but even if they were both rockets, there are so many problems at McLaren at the moment that it would not matter. Finishing 3rd/4th this year in the WCC might be a good wake up call at Woking, they have gotten by the past few years by claiming to have only been beaten by Red Bull - the reality is that they have been in trouble since 2009 and have been lucky.



#3845 ZooL

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:20

I wonder what it is about Button that whitmarsh supports him so much?

My feeling is that its because Whitmarsh feels Button is genuinely a nice top bloke. Someone you would have a drink with in a pub say.

I don't personally agree with that school of thought in F1.

I honestly think Whitmarsh is too nice a man. I don't think its the right character to have in a F1 world that is so fiercely competitive.
He'd be much more suited to being chairman of the Citizen Advice Bureau or Consumer Focus, or even a Charitable organisation.

#3846 ZooL

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:24

Honestly - I am expecting a poor couple of years for McLaren - the signs are all there right now. Really, it might be best to just grin and bare it until they sort themselves out. Next years drivers are dull/average - but even if they were both rockets, there are so many problems at McLaren at the moment that it would not matter. Finishing 3rd/4th this year in the WCC might be a good wake up call at Woking, they have gotten by the past few years by claiming to have only been beaten by Red Bull - the reality is that they have been in trouble since 2009 and have been lucky.

I think its Hamilton who has dragged their shitboxes to the front since 2008 has deluded them into a false sense of where they really are.

2013 is the first year since 2006 they'll get a proper reality check.

#3847 Dalton007

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:34

I think its Hamilton who has dragged their shitboxes to the front since 2008 has deluded them into a false sense of where they really are.

2013 is the first year since 2006 they'll get a proper reality check.


2013 will be just fine without Lewis. :up:

#3848 MirNyet

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:40

2013 will be just fine without Lewis. :up:


Except, I don't think this is about Hamliton - the problem is McLaren themselves.

#3849 femi

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:03

2013 will be just fine without Lewis. :up:



The only exciting thing in Mclaren is LH and with him gone, there is nothing special about Mclaren any longer.

#3850 aray

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:13

this is the only team that had chances to trump RB this season and they shoot at their feet at every opportunity when they were ahead......:down:

from the beginning of the year i prepared myself to accept Lewis as WDC if Alonso fails...yet they let fingerboy get away again... :mad: