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McLaren MP4-27 Part III


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#3851 Juggles

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:16

The only exciting thing in Mclaren is LH and with him gone, there is nothing special about Mclaren any longer.


A bit harsh but I do think Hamilton is the closest thing they have to a sprinkle of stardust.

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#3852 jjcale

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:44

Nope, I don't buy it for one minute. I doubt whitmarsh even looked at Hulk.

I think he was swept in the hype, maybe Ferrari were right, I think McLaren have another Heikki


SP is backed by Telmex .... no one of significance is backing NH.

NH has the best pre F1 CV since LH ... the guy has a champions mentality. He was the obvious best choice if only personal driver characteristics was being looked at.... and on that measure PdR would also have been a better choice.

...Anyway SP is a good driver on his day and hopefully Macca can help him to find consistency.

but yes, It is true that today was a very poor day for the 2013 driver line up .... but TBH the drivers have never been the problem at Macca - even in 2011 when LH went postal the team was screwing up as much as he was... so we wait for Sam Michael and Whitmarsh to sort out trackside operations so that the hard work at Woking is not wasted as it has been this year.

#3853 f1fastestlap

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:47

...Anyway SP is a good driver on his day and hopefully Macca can help him to find consistency.


If only McLaren could find some consistency for them in the first place... :cool:

#3854 MirNyet

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:51

A bit harsh but I do think Hamilton is the closest thing they have to a sprinkle of stardust.


McLaren are a great team with great resources that has lost its way. There is something wrong in the management structure, bad decisions are being made, they are being out-developed, out-raced, and left behind. For next year, they will be starting behind as the designs will have a lot of carry over - we already know Ferrari and Red Bull have systems on their cars McLaren don't, they both seem to be better with their tires, and have better grip and balance. Then we get to the operational errors, the car issues and the general poor race-craft on the pit wall... In terms of in season developement - they started ahead, both Ferrari and Red Bull had problems with their cars, not only have they addressed those problems (to a point), they have moved ahead of McLaren in terms of overall development. That is a serious shortfall from McLaren. As I said before, Hamliton staying or going is not the real problem, McLaren need to sort themselves out. A restructuring year may not be a bad idea as what they are doing at the moment simply isn't working and just repeating it next year isn't going to improve matters. A big shake up is needed, they are starting to feel like the new Williams.

#3855 jjcale

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:51

IMO they should have taken Kimi and Hulk instead of Perez. He is only good when he doesn´t have to start inside of the top 10 and at race where starting on the harder tyres at the first stint and using the softer, faster tyres at the and has been a big advantage.

Maybe Macca should have waited a few more weeks after the decision of Lewis joining Mercedes


Too focused on PR .... they actually made sure to announce SP slightly ahead of Merc announcing LH :eek: ....Talk about putting the cart before the horse

This is the main problem with the Whitmarsh era ... to much priorty on PR.

#3856 aray

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 16:04

Too focused on PR .... they actually made sure to announce SP slightly ahead of Merc announcing LH :eek: ....Talk about putting the cart before the horse

This is the main problem with the Whitmarsh era ... to much priorty on PR.

Don't know why every blame goes to MW. :rolleyes: ...his job concern the team and races...hiring a driver is Board's decision(Martin is one of them..only) and where RD rules...it is not like MW says let's hire Perez and announce it today and everybody say 'yes sir..'....

This type of thing is more to RD's realm....his ego is too big to let a driver ditch his team first... :smoking:

#3857 BigCHrome

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 16:25

Did everyone forget that Perez has 3 podiums?

That is just media blabber. Mclaren were not affected by such tests, Mclaren were always in line with all front wing flexing limits.
All we are seeing are Ferrari and RB with better upgrades. Singapre the car was blazing, Japan - the car was very good but for a suspension failure, Korea the car was Ok until that roll bar debacle.

Today in India, all there was was the tyres taking a really long time to come into the temperature range.

I have much hope for the more abrassive, warmer tracks coming up.


No way, tests definitely had plenty to do with the current pace. You don't go from dominating races to not even being a podium contender in two weeks without a negative change to your own car. Plus, as Alonso complained time and time again, they haven't brought any big updates.

Edited by BigCHrome, 28 October 2012 - 16:25.


#3858 BillBald

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 16:29

McLaren are a great team with great resources that has lost its way. There is something wrong in the management structure, bad decisions are being made, they are being out-developed, out-raced, and left behind. For next year, they will be starting behind as the designs will have a lot of carry over - we already know Ferrari and Red Bull have systems on their cars McLaren don't, they both seem to be better with their tires, and have better grip and balance. Then we get to the operational errors, the car issues and the general poor race-craft on the pit wall... In terms of in season developement - they started ahead, both Ferrari and Red Bull had problems with their cars, not only have they addressed those problems (to a point), they have moved ahead of McLaren in terms of overall development. That is a serious shortfall from McLaren. As I said before, Hamliton staying or going is not the real problem, McLaren need to sort themselves out. A restructuring year may not be a bad idea as what they are doing at the moment simply isn't working and just repeating it next year isn't going to improve matters. A big shake up is needed, they are starting to feel like the new Williams.


In fairness, Ferrari this year had access to some McLaren info. On the other hand, when (if?) Ferrari have sorted out their windtunnel etc., they are likely to get stronger.

I'm hoping Macca will get the restructuring done before the start of next season. I don't know if they have to fire anyone, but they need to get systems in place for reliability, and most of all they need to sort out how decisions are taken during quali and race.



#3859 aray

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 16:32

In fairness, Ferrari this year had access to some McLaren info. On the other hand, when (if?) Ferrari have sorted out their windtunnel etc., they are likely to get stronger.

I'm hoping Macca will get the restructuring done before the start of next season. I don't know if they have to fire anyone, but they need to get systems in place for reliability, and most of all they need to sort out how decisions are taken during quali and race.

they won't in near future...have no fear.. :wave:

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#3860 MirNyet

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 16:51

they won't in near future...have no fear.. :wave:


They don't have too - they are using the Toyota one - one of the best in the world while they sort their own systems out.

#3861 Anonymous

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 16:55

The only exciting thing in Mclaren is LH and with him gone, there is nothing special about Mclaren any longer.


Don't let the door hit on you on the way out. Can't wait for the next season without Hamilton fans in this thread. Finally.

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Edited by Anonymous, 28 October 2012 - 16:58.


#3862 aray

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 16:56

They don't have too - they are using the Toyota one - one of the best in the world while they sort their own systems out.

they have been using it for couple of years...not managed much from it...other teams use it too.. :smoking:

#3863 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 17:07

Don't let the door hit on you on the way out. Can't wait for the next season without Hamilton fans in this thread. Finally.

Posted Image


I was a McLaren fan before a Lewis fan and I am joining him out the door, this team is a shambles and doesn't deserve the name McLaren, the only thing they excel at is having a big mouth. They pride themselves on engineering excellence when for the last few years its being a sham. You're welcome to the pale shadow of the once great mclaren team.

Its an embarrassment watching them from race to race, waiting for the fumble combined with big PR statements.

#3864 Ashitank

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 17:23

Nope, I don't buy it for one minute. I doubt whitmarsh even looked at Hulk.

I think he was swept in the hype, maybe Ferrari were right, I think McLaren have another Heikki



Lol you never know Perez may bring some good luck with him to maca :p, I think expecting Perez to match Lewis pace from the very beginning in his maca career is too much to expect, its too early to judge.

#3865 PARAZAR

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 17:30

I think its Hamilton who has dragged their shitboxes to the front since 2008 has deluded them into a false sense of where they really are.

2013 is the first year since 2006 they'll get a proper reality check.


If you think Hamilton's been driving "shitboxes" as you say since 2008 maybe you should ask what Rosberg and Schumacher have been driving for the past three years.

#3866 f1fastestlap

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 17:41

Don't let the door hit on you on the way out. Can't wait for the next season without Hamilton fans in this thread. Finally.

Posted Image


Good luck with your idol, Jenson "Balance" Button.... :wave:

#3867 Anonymous

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 17:48

I am joining him out the door


Great. :up:


#3868 f1rookie

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:01


Episode 9: McLaren Toned Animation Strictly Bollywood
http://www.formula1o...-animation.html


#3869 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:08

Great. :up:



I know you think you're being clever and you've being superb on the McLaren thread through the year, but you're now coming across very childish.

I don't hate mclaren, but the way they have acted and performed to me don't deserve any support, they have acted very badly for years and this year is the final straw until Whitmarsh is gone.

#3870 DaddyCool

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:28

the only thing they excel at is having a big mouth.


This is sadly, very true.

Ferrari had a mediocre car at the season start. What did they do? They have shut the f*** up and came up with a victory contender car in Spain.

Mclaren, on the other hand, after like 5-6 very costly pitsop errors did basically nothing until some genius at the team realised that they should practice more. They have been drooling over the record 2.4 sec pitsop ever since. Too bad you don't get championship points for that.

#3871 Silverknight

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:33


It's looking bleak for Mclaren, lost fastest driver and one of the best, Redbull now have the fastest car which will carry on next year, they have 2 guys who are poor at qualfying, reliability problems.

Not looking such a bad decision by Lewis now is it, wonder who will have the last laugh at the end of 2015.





#3872 BigCHrome

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:34

It's looking bleak for Mclaren, lost fastest driver and one of the best, Redbull now have the fastest car which will carry on next year, they have 2 guys who are poor at qualfying, reliability problems.

Not looking such a bad decision by Lewis now is it, wonder who will have the last laugh at the end of 2015.


Most likely neither. Other than Vettel profiting from Newey's genius.

#3873 bogi

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 19:36

Don't let the door hit on you on the way out. Can't wait for the next season without Hamilton fans in this thread. Finally.

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I don't think we will have normal discussions in 2013, some people just can't let it go.

#3874 whitevisor

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 19:45

I just unsubscribed from the Mclaren news letters. It felt good. :)

#3875 10e10

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 20:03

With or without Lewis, this year showed the weakness in McLaren as a team, their operational and development problems were clearly showed, and need to be corrected for next years. Sometimes we need more than a fast car, and this year that failed. I hope they look closer at their development rate and stop taking the mantle of "faster developers" in F1 because of 2009, because in later years they were clearly out developed, not only by RedBull, but by Ferrari too.

#3876 Mc_Silver

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 20:29

Honestly - I am expecting a poor couple of years for McLaren - the signs are all there right now. Really, it might be best to just grin and bare it until they sort themselves out. Next years drivers are dull/average - but even if they were both rockets, there are so many problems at McLaren at the moment that it would not matter. Finishing 3rd/4th this year in the WCC might be a good wake up call at Woking, they have gotten by the past few years by claiming to have only been beaten by Red Bull - the reality is that they have been in trouble since 2009 and have been lucky.


McLaren have been lucky? Are you serious?


#3877 Peter Perfect

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 20:39

I just unsubscribed from the Mclaren news letters. It felt good. :)


Oo! Didn't realise they had one. Just signed up :)

#3878 SerratedEdge

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 21:02

I wonder what it is about Button that whitmarsh supports him so much?



He's not a wanabee American rap star who tweets sensitive team data ?

Edited by SerratedEdge, 28 October 2012 - 23:38.


#3879 MirNyet

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 21:03

McLaren have been lucky? Are you serious?


Quite. If Ferrari, Renault or Mercedes had gotten their acts together then McLaren would have been in trouble in both 2010 and 2011 - they were not great in either year.



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#3880 Mc_Silver

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 21:10

Quite. If Ferrari, Renault or Mercedes had gotten their acts together then McLaren would have been in trouble in both 2010 and 2011 - they were not great in either year.


If McLaren had gotten their act together this year they would have been first in WDC and WCC now. We can add 2007, 2010 and 2011 as well.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 28 October 2012 - 21:11.


#3881 MirNyet

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 21:19

If McLaren had gotten their act together this year they would have been first in WDC and WCC now. We can add 2007, 2010 and 2011 as well.


Indeed - 2007 however had external pressures and a rookie driver - so perhaps that one is understandable.

#3882 ZooL

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 22:10

He's not a wanabee American rap star who tweets sensitive team data on twiter?

It's the root cause one needs to look at not the effect.

It's only when one starts to look at why it lead to Hamilton doing those things you begin to identify the problems at McLaren.

#3883 Mc_Silver

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 22:48

I think McLaren has always been slow at the start of races since 2010. On the other hand, Red Bull and Ferrari seem very very strong in 1st stints. I don't know the reason for this but I believe this could be due to the McLaren's fuel strategy for the races. Car also does notwork very well with full fuel. We have to fix this sensitiveness of the car. We have small operating window which makes thing difficult and it is hard to be consistent with it.

#3884 Bartel

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 00:52

Quite. If Ferrari, Renault or Mercedes had gotten their acts together then McLaren would have been in trouble in both 2010 and 2011 - they were not great in either year.

So mclaren werent better and the others werent poor, mclaren was just lucky and the others were unlucky? Ive heard it all now.

#3885 ElDictatore

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 01:27

How is development rate bad at McLaren after 09? In 2010 they were pretty strong, till the blown diffusor showed up, which just didn't suit the initial design of the car. You could also get a Newey for implementing a blown diffusor on the -25 and I tell you, it won't be any better. In 2011 some say, they had the arguably better car at the end of the season. And this season they miraculously had 2 drop offs in the season (after China & Singapore) after the FIA made regulation changes. And they recovered mid-season. And yes this season was really bad but i don't think that this is something which is now standard in McLaren.
Btw. McLaren set a new record at India. 55 race starts with points gathered in a row. Former record holder was Ferrari between 99' and 03'.

#3886 BigCHrome

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 01:50

How is development rate bad at McLaren after 09? In 2010 they were pretty strong, till the blown diffusor showed up, which just didn't suit the initial design of the car. You could also get a Newey for implementing a blown diffusor on the -25 and I tell you, it won't be any better. In 2011 some say, they had the arguably better car at the end of the season. And this season they miraculously had 2 drop offs in the season (after China & Singapore) after the FIA made regulation changes. And they recovered mid-season. And yes this season was really bad but i don't think that this is something which is now standard in McLaren.
Btw. McLaren set a new record at India. 55 race starts with points gathered in a row. Former record holder was Ferrari between 99' and 03'.


That is not an impressive record at all, considering that from 99 to 02 only the top 6 cars got points. Now it's the top 10.
In 2011 they started about .5s behind RB and were probably further back at the end of the season.

#3887 Seanspeed

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:17

Did everyone forget that Perez has 3 podiums?

Probably would have if you hadn't reminded me.

Sorry.

I'm looking forward to the haters leaving this thread as well.

Edited by Seanspeed, 29 October 2012 - 03:19.


#3888 Lemans

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 05:55

Don't let the door hit on you on the way out. Can't wait for the next season without Hamilton fans in this thread. Finally.

Posted Image


:up:



#3889 jjcale

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:10

So was Latham India or not??

And if so, what role did he play??

#3890 SCEPurple

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:17

I just unsubscribed from the Mclaren news letters. It felt good. :)


Oooh yeah, lets do that

#3891 peroa

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:18

He wasn't on the radio, didn't see him so that's a no, I guess...

Edited by peroa, 29 October 2012 - 08:18.


#3892 Dalton007

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:25

It's the root cause one needs to look at not the effect.

It's only when one starts to look at why it lead to Hamilton doing those things you begin to identify the problems at McLaren.


The root cause could be Hamilton himself.

#3893 jjcale

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:26

He wasn't on the radio, didn't see him so that's a no, I guess...


Thanks... Waiting for more confirmation, though - hopefully ATMandy can shed some light on this.... or one of the super committed Macca fans will take a break from bashing LH fans to show an interest in whether or not one of the two lead race engineers has left the team.



#3894 Kvothe

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 10:35

He wasn't on the radio, didn't see him so that's a no, I guess...


Engel seemed to think he was, I hope he can shed more light on this.
He wasn't on Lewis' side of the garage during the race, and if he was present but not as a race engineer that tends to suggest he has been replaced.

Edited by Kvothe, 29 October 2012 - 10:35.


#3895 femi

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 11:21

Don't let the door hit on you on the way out. Can't wait for the next season without Hamilton fans in this thread. Finally.

Posted Image



I usually don't respond to critical comments from quite a number of people. In your case, I make an excemption because of the serious efforts that you have consistently demonstrated by bring to us those nice pictures of the car and team during each GP.

I don't hate Mclaren, I have been a Mclaren fan since 1990. It is true that I am not a fan of JB and to a far lesser extent MW

#3896 MirNyet

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 11:59

So mclaren werent better and the others werent poor, mclaren was just lucky and the others were unlucky? Ive heard it all now.


That's not really what I said - McLaren have been flattered by the fact that Ferrari hasn't been on top of its game since 2008, and Mercedes immediately fell away after 2009. These two teams under performing have allowed McLaren to get away with some pretty poor years in terms of overall team performance and yet still get second in the WCC.

#3897 Fox1

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 13:30

The root cause could be Hamilton himself.

If that's the case, perhaps you should brief the Board at the end of the season and explain why McLaren finished 3rd in the WCC despite having arguably the best performance baseline at the start of the season. Also add that the driver who brought the team the only WDC in 12 years is leaving despite your "best" efforts to keep him. Just say it's all Lewis' fault, or better yet, just say he started it.

The tone on how McLaren is currently being run is set by Management. I consider Alonso, Seb, and Lewis at the top of the sport, no top driver with other options would want to race for McLaren unless there is a dramatic change in the way the team is managed.

#3898 robefc

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 13:50

How is development rate bad at McLaren after 09? In 2010 they were pretty strong, till the blown diffusor showed up, which just didn't suit the initial design of the car. You could also get a Newey for implementing a blown diffusor on the -25 and I tell you, it won't be any better. In 2011 some say, they had the arguably better car at the end of the season. And this season they miraculously had 2 drop offs in the season (after China & Singapore) after the FIA made regulation changes. And they recovered mid-season. And yes this season was really bad but i don't think that this is something which is now standard in McLaren.
Btw. McLaren set a new record at India. 55 race starts with points gathered in a row. Former record holder was Ferrari between 99' and 03'.


Equalled not beaten I believe

#3899 peroa

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 21:33

Ouch, short-lived merchandise...
https://www.mclarens...aign=NL20121029

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#3900 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 11:30

Yes - having a teammate to fight makes things harder, a team with a good atmosphere shouldn't have that problem :D


:smoking: Awesome response. :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:


I hope don´t.... but next season with our drivers line up will be very long.......