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McLaren MP4-27 Part III


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#3901 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 11:34

I think the new front wing load tests hurt them much more than they are admitting. coupled with the Redbull DDRS and exhaust revamp......its goodnight baby.......



Fully agreed.... but seeing flexy FW in Red Bull makes me think....!!!

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#3902 maverick69

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 15:29

Fully agreed.... but seeing flexy FW in Red Bull makes me think....!!!


I think they've got it bending on a different axis..... once again.

Very clever - and you have to say that letting Newey go for the sake of the so-called "Management Matrix" was a bit of a brainfart.......

#3903 Absulute

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 15:31



:rotfl:

#3904 Roonaldo

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 15:43

Fully agreed.... but seeing flexy FW in Red Bull makes me think....!!!


The McLaren wing hasn't changed. It still bends backwards at high speed. You could see this from the rearward facing camera of the cars in front on Sunday.

The jump has come from Red Bull, not McLaren going backwards.

Edited by Roonaldo, 30 October 2012 - 15:43.


#3905 maverick69

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 15:57

http://planetf1.com/...Easy-For-Vettel


Yeah. Because you royally screwed up for the most part of this season operationally and and in some ways technically. Admit it and move on.......

Edited by maverick69, 30 October 2012 - 15:57.


#3906 TheManAlive

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 16:11



:rotfl:



Very funny, watched the one with the fans as well.

But then I noted this video uploaded in August 2012.

http://www.youtube.c...ture=plpp_video

I think the title may have been a little presumptuous!! I'd also blame it for jinxing Lewis chances!

#3907 F1ultimate

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 16:31

Ouch, short-lived merchandise...
https://www.mclarens...aign=NL20121029


Can't wait for their fire-sale on Lewis Hamilton Merchandise :smoking:

The end of the season can't come soon enough.

#3908 cooper

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 17:31

Can't wait for their fire-sale on Lewis Hamilton Merchandise :smoking:

The end of the season can't come soon enough.

Agreed, it's disappointing as a McLaren fan to see us throw away what could have been a great year for us. Now it's just see the year out and hope that the title fight isn't a snooze fest. I'd welcome a 2010 type end where Alonso was stuck behind Petrov.

Hopefully we will have a good result from McLaren in Abu Dhabi.. Certainly would love to see the race pace from the get go

#3909 BigCHrome

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 18:10

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103871

MY GOD. They are still talking trash about RBR. I can't wait for the next embarrassment in ABu Dhabi.

#3910 fdspd

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 18:18

Mclaren was the fastest car on track on the prime tyre in India. So it might not be trash talk after all.

#3911 SamH123

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 18:20

The McLaren wing hasn't changed. It still bends backwards at high speed. You could see this from the rearward facing camera of the cars in front on Sunday.
The jump has come from Red Bull, not McLaren going backwards.


But Ferrari have beaten Mclaren 3 times in a row (and Massa starting from 11th one of the times) and yet Alonso has been implying their development hasn't been particularly significant..
That implies to me that Mclaren might have gone backwards a little

However I am hopeful for Abu Dhabi. Gary Anderson's comments in this article http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20118852 make me think that RB's advantage may not be there in Abu Dhabi because most of the corners just seem too slow

#3912 ElDictatore

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 18:20

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103871

MY GOD. They are still talking trash about RBR. I can't wait for the next embarrassment in ABu Dhabi.


Where's the trash talking? The title is a bit misleading too, if you ask me.

#3913 stevesingo

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 18:39

Whitmarsh's outfit have been unable to challenge Vettel of late, with the Red Bull man racking up four consecutive wins while McLaren have only managed one podium finish over the same period.

Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button had to settle for fourth and fifth respectively last time out in India, a result which left Whitmarsh frustrated.

"They've a fast car, a driver who is consistent and the team has been doing a good job," Whitmarsh said of Red Bull's recent dominance.

"But we have made it all too easy for him. In India, for instance, we needed to get up there and give him a harder time at the start.

"But we weren't able to make anything stick, and instead our two guys found themselves fighting each other and Fernando on the first lap.

"That was probably the dream ticket for them (Red Bull), but they have done a great job."

Whitmarsh believes that McLaren's failure to battle for top spot in India was mainly down to the tyres, with the one-stop nature of the race not suiting his team.

"We blistered the option tyre, so we were slow on it," he explained. "By the time we had got on to the prime we were the quickest cars consistently.

"But, by that stage, we had lost too much time - and in fact Jenson had fallen behind [Romain] Grosjean. So the bottom line is that we did not have the pace on the option tyre.

"In truth we struggled with the option all weekend, as you know. We got on to the second row with a bit of a struggle with underlying reasonable pace. It is disappointing we were close to getting on the podium but not quite."

"But, by that stage, we had lost too much time - and in fact Jenson had fallen behind [Romain] Grosjean due to yet another pit error".

Corrected that for you Martin

#3914 BillBald

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 18:42

and in fact Jenson had fallen behind [Romain] Grosjean due to yet another pit error".

Corrected that for you Martin


In fairness I think it was around 4 secs, so not the worst of stops, but not what he needed at that time.

Edited by BillBald, 30 October 2012 - 18:43.


#3915 amppatel

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 19:38

"But we have made it all too easy for him. In India, for instance, we needed to get up there and give him a harder time at the start.

"But we weren't able to make anything stick, and instead our two guys found themselves fighting each other and Fernando on the first lap."

What an idiot?! He is the team boss, he decides if they fight one another. Hence his statement is really saying that he isn't doing his own job.


#3916 techspeed

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 22:58

What an idiot?! He is the team boss, he decides if they fight one another. Hence his statement is really saying that he isn't doing his own job.

Yet all hell would break loose on here and there would be calls for Whitmarsh to be sacked if Hamilton had been told to not fight Button on the first lap to prevent Alonso jumping them. One thing I like about McLaren is that they let their drivers race, if you want team orders go support Ferrari.

#3917 robybobey

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 18:05

http://www.f1fanatic...abud-2012-2.jpg
http://www.f1fanatic...abud-2012-1.jpg
http://www.f1fanatic...abud-2012-2.jpg

#3918 OO7

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 18:58

I didn't even fully realise there was a race on this weekend, until late this afternoon. Nice surprise :) .

#3919 Absulute

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 22:36

Heh, yeah, this season has kind of fizzled out.

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#3920 mattferg

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 23:20

But Ferrari have beaten Mclaren 3 times in a row (and Massa starting from 11th one of the times) and yet Alonso has been implying their development hasn't been particularly significant..
That implies to me that Mclaren might have gone backwards a little

However I am hopeful for Abu Dhabi. Gary Anderson's comments in this article http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20118852 make me think that RB's advantage may not be there in Abu Dhabi because most of the corners just seem too slow


This article says the recent improvements in the RB8 have made it much faster in low speed corners... so how did the article make you think the RB8 won't be fast at Yas Marina?

On another note, I'd love to know whether they're going to continue Tooned with Perez and Button, as I think Button's humour was what really made the show, not Hamilton. But Perez seems a bit cold and humourless?

Edited by mattferg, 01 November 2012 - 23:21.


#3921 MP422

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 23:45

http://www.f1fanatic...abud-2012-2.jpg


keeping a close eye on his car... :rotfl:

#3922 SamH123

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 23:51

This article says the recent improvements in the RB8 have made it much faster in low speed corners... so how did the article make you think the RB8 won't be fast at Yas Marina?


Because a lot of the corners look too slow to be aero dependent (in my eyes at least) and RB's gain has been all aero. Maybe I don't understand how slow a corner needs to be for aero to be unimportant though

Obviously they will be fast but I will be very disappointed if Mclaren can't be a lot closer this weekend

Edited by SamH123, 02 November 2012 - 00:04.


#3923 BillBald

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 00:09

Because a lot of the corners look too slow to be aero dependent (in my eyes at least) and RB's gain has been all aero. Maybe I don't understand how slow a corner needs to be for aero to be unimportant though

Obviously they will be fast but I will be very disappointed if Mclaren can't be a lot closer this weekend


EBD gave greatly improved braking and traction out of slow corners. If RB have succeeded in bringing back something like EBD, it could give them a big advantage.



#3924 JRizzle86

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:20

Heh, yeah, this season has kind of fizzled out.


Roll on 2013.

#3925 Goron3

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:03

EBD gave greatly improved braking and traction out of slow corners. If RB have succeeded in bringing back something like EBD, it could give them a big advantage.


Well said. If they are feeding the diffuser a bit more than they were around the summer, it could make them very quick in S3.

I always found it weird when people wondered why there was such a difference between Webber and Vettel last season, given that Seb's driving style naturally makes him quicker than Mark on the slower circuits, and vice versa at high speed circuits. I'm glad EBD is gone though, made the engines so horrible :/

McLaren should do well here; very stiff suspension and Lewis has always been such a late braker!

#3926 argiriano

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:45

So it looks like once again no bumpy track (Yas Marina) helps McLaren chasis to be more compatetive relative to RBR, just like the previous years.
After seeing FP1 I think it`s not that RedBull outperforming the others but it`s McLaren underperforming last couple of races for various reasons.
Sad...

#3927 Mc_Silver

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:49

So it looks like once again no bumpy track (Yas Marina) helps McLaren chasis to be more compatetive relative to RBR, just like the previous years.
After seeing FP1 I think it`s not that RedBull outperforming the others but it`s McLaren underperforming last couple of races for various reasons.
Sad...


They need to build a car which is not over sensitive to heat, bumps, choice of tyres etc. I hope we will still remain competitive in lower temperature conditions.

#3928 peroa

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:58

They need to build a car which is not over sensitive to heat, bumps, choice of tyres etc. I hope we will still remain competitive in lower temperature conditions.

They haven't since 2009. The current aerodynamic concept is what it is, they certainly won't build a new car for next year, 2014 is a new opportunity.

#3929 milestone 11

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:25

Btw. McLaren set a new record at India. 55 race starts with points gathered in a row. Former record holder was Ferrari between 99' and 03'.

Equalled not beaten I believe

The very fact that between '99 and '02 the top six scored and in '03 top eight makes this considerably more achievable today.


#3930 maverick69

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:43

Any sign of Latham?

#3931 SophieB

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:54

Any sign of Latham?

Nope.

#socialfriday @north_p_: "Who is on the role of race engineer for Lewis in this weekend?"
McLaren‏@TheFifthDriver: Mark Temple, ably supported by Will Joseph!



#3932 maverick69

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:55

Nope.


Hmmmmmmm..........

#3933 jrg19

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:03

Would Lewis take Mark to Mercedes?

#3934 maverick69

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:10

Would Lewis take Mark to Mercedes?


Well. If the rumors are true that Latham has actually left the team because they would not back Hamilton for the title push (which it must be said is starting to look like a realistic scenario) - then I would say that it is more likely that Latham would be the one turning up at Mercedes.

Edited by maverick69, 02 November 2012 - 12:18.


#3935 Anonymous

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:23

http://www.formule1....51854561.12.jpg
http://www.formule1....351856793.4.jpg
http://www.formule1....51856787.23.jpg
http://www.formule1....51856786.53.jpg

#3936 f1rules

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:40

Interesting that they are testing both pod "vanes" "wings". Struck me already back then, when they changed to the higher version which lewis used today, that maybe something turned of the rear somehow. Because thats when the drop in form came. But then again thats when the new frontwing tests where introduced, so i thought it was nothing. And where is andy? Will be interesting if he goes with Hamilton to mercedes, how will all the hamilton fans handle, after they critisized andy and hamiltons work relationship.

#3937 Lazy

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 13:59

Interesting that they are testing both pod "vanes" "wings". Struck me already back then, when they changed to the higher version which lewis used today, that maybe something turned of the rear somehow. Because thats when the drop in form came. But then again thats when the new frontwing tests where introduced, so i thought it was nothing. And where is andy? Will be interesting if he goes with Hamilton to mercedes, how will all the hamilton fans handle, after they critisized andy and hamiltons work relationship.


Don't worry, they are very experienced with dealing with these paradoxes.

#3938 Lazy

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 14:19

Both looking very quick on the long run.

#3939 jrg19

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 14:23

Hopefully Lewis can find more than 1 tenth gain on the soft, if he can we could be looking at pole.

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#3940 whitevisor

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 14:37

He doesn't need to. He would have edged Vettel's best FP2 time by about 3 tenths if he had a clean lap. We are in good shape for a pole and 1-2.

#3941 jrg19

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 14:38

I didn't realise he was held up on his lap. :up:

#3942 montoya

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 14:39

Any sign of Latham?


Andy will return for the Austin GP ;)

So far looking good, Lewis for the win this weekend :cool:

#3943 argiriano

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 14:45

Interesting that they are testing both pod "vanes" "wings". Struck me already back then, when they changed to the higher version which lewis used today, that maybe something turned of the rear somehow. Because thats when the drop in form came. But then again thats when the new frontwing tests where introduced, so i thought it was nothing.

In FP2 Hamilton also was using older version of sidepod wings, maybe they found something wrong there after all. :rolleyes:

High fuel runs looked good.

I wonder wheter or not McLaren will gamble at Q if they have pace this good on Mediums to start the race with these tires?! But knowing we`re talking about McLaren here the answer is no. Obviously.

#3944 peroa

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 14:50

In FP2 Hamilton also was using older version of sidepod wings, maybe they found something wrong there after all. :rolleyes:

High fuel runs looked good.

I wonder wheter or not McLaren will gamble at Q if they have pace this good on Mediums to start the race with these tires?! But knowing we`re talking about McLaren here the answer is no. Obviously.

Don't know if that's wise, the track will be a lot cooler at night and with a light car you won't be getting much heat into the softs at the end of the race.
If it's a 1 stopper it could maybe work.

Edited by peroa, 02 November 2012 - 14:51.


#3945 robefc

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 15:11

Don't know if that's wise, the track will be a lot cooler at night and with a light car you won't be getting much heat into the softs at the end of the race.
If it's a 1 stopper it could maybe work.


Based on his best times it looks like an attractive option to me but others are saying he could have gone 3/10ths quicker.

Surely getting heat into the primes would be even more of an issue compared to softs?

#3946 peroa

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 15:36

Based on his best times it looks like an attractive option to me but others are saying he could have gone 3/10ths quicker.

Surely getting heat into the primes would be even more of an issue compared to softs?

Nope, that's the thing with the Pirellis, the harder the tyre, the lower the operating window.
It's easier to get the harder tyre working at 80-85°C, than the softer which has an optimal window from 95-100°C.
(temps jut for illustration)

Interesting however is that next years Pirellis will be very much Micheliny in their design, very different.
Hughes is speculating that they want to get in a "practice year" with what they will most likely have to compete with in 2014, khm, Michelin comeback.

#3947 boldhakka

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 15:38

Nope, that's the thing with the Pirellis, the harder the tyre, the lower the operating window.
It's easier to get the harder tyre working at 80-85°C, than the softer which has an optimal window from 95-100°C.
(temps jut for illustration)

Interesting however is that next years Pirellis will be very much Micheliny in their design, very different.
Hughes is speculating that they want to get in a "practice year" with what they will most likely have to compete with in 2014, khm, Michelin comeback.


Didn't know this, thanks.

#3948 WitnessX

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 17:40

Nope, that's the thing with the Pirellis, the harder the tyre, the lower the operating window.
It's easier to get the harder tyre working at 80-85°C, than the softer which has an optimal window from 95-100°C.
(temps jut for illustration)

Interesting however is that next years Pirellis will be very much Micheliny in their design, very different.
Hughes is speculating that they want to get in a "practice year" with what they will most likely have to compete with in 2014, khm, Michelin comeback.

That sounds like the Bridgestones to me not the Pirelli.

According to Pirelli:
http://www.pirelli.c...dia-gallery-CNT
... video "Tyre Beahaviour" (not to be confused with "F1 Tyre Behaviour" which is a different video)

I'm sceptical but according to Pirelli:
- Supersoft tyre – This is the easiest to warm up as it operates at around 95 degrees Celsius.
- Soft tyre – This works best at around 105 degrees.
- Medium tyre – This tyre offers improved consistency and high levels of grip. Best operating temperature is 115 degrees.
- Hard tyre – This offers less grip but lots of performance stability, and works best at 125 degrees.

The McCabism blog:
http://mccabism.blog...is-2012-f1.html
..has some interesting theories about the difference between the 2011/2012 tyres.

There is a video in there (somewhere) which states a more aggressive driving can benefit, which sort of fits in with the blog and with comments I've heard from the drivers.


#3949 undersquare

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 17:43

Well. If the rumors are true that Latham has actually left the team because they would not back Hamilton for the title push (which it must be said is starting to look like a realistic scenario) - then I would say that it is more likely that Latham would be the one turning up at Mercedes.

I hadn't seen that rumour, does it have any substance? I find it hard to believe McLaren wouldn't want a wdc in its records.

#3950 peroa

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 17:59

That sounds like the Bridgestones to me not the Pirelli.

According to Pirelli:
http://www.pirelli.c...dia-gallery-CNT
... video "Tyre Beahaviour" (not to be confused with "F1 Tyre Behaviour" which is a different video)

I'm sceptical but according to Pirelli:
- Supersoft tyre – This is the easiest to warm up as it operates at around 95 degrees Celsius.
- Soft tyre – This works best at around 105 degrees.
- Medium tyre – This tyre offers improved consistency and high levels of grip. Best operating temperature is 115 degrees.
- Hard tyre – This offers less grip but lots of performance stability, and works best at 125 degrees.

The McCabism blog:
http://mccabism.blog...is-2012-f1.html
..has some interesting theories about the difference between the 2011/2012 tyres.

There is a video in there (somewhere) which states a more aggressive driving can benefit, which sort of fits in with the blog and with comments I've heard from the drivers.

Well, seems strange, IIRC the autosport articles in spring gave the explanation I posted above.
I'll try to find the issue and article.