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2012 - MotoGP, WSB, Moto2, WSP, AMA, BSB Part II


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#1401 Atreiu

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 16:30

Like Moto2 but with more engine suppliers?

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#1402 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 16:38

Yep. The availability of competitive engines is key, just ask F1 or Kenny Roberts. If you continue on the CRT way then you're either always going to have two tiers or you're going to have to get into equivalency formulas and that never ends up working.

#1403 Atreiu

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 16:47

Sounds nice. And that would fit into prototype: racing made/adapted engines for racing made chassis.

#1404 PokePoke

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 16:51

Wait, wait - 2 major motorbike series under one umbrella? What about european antitrust laws. In 2006 CVC had to sell shares Dorny to buy FOM because antitrust laws.

This isn't good news. Flamini manage quite well WSBk (return factory teams, 6 different brands on the grid, a very good show on the track) and they generate revenue.
In the other hand Dorna sell tv rights to pay tv (Poland, Italy, etc), only3 brand s on the grid, they're also being blackmailed by HRC (ECU), those circus with CRT and only 12 prototypes, big problems with sponsors etc.
Dorna is a poorly managed company .... and now they have to be responsible for the second championship on planet? C'mon....

Edited by PokePoke, 02 October 2012 - 16:52.


#1405 GSiebert

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 17:06

Yep. The availability of competitive engines is key, just ask F1 or Kenny Roberts. If you continue on the CRT way then you're either always going to have two tiers or you're going to have to get into equivalency formulas and that never ends up working.

I like the idea but I can't see how the most important series can do without true Hondas, Yamahas, Ducatis or whatever constructor on the grid.

#1406 GSiebert

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 17:08

Rolfo takes Pasini's ride at Speed Master.

#1407 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 17:18

Those factory teams have basically killed MotoGP, I don't see how the series can do WITH them.

#1408 Disgrace

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 17:45

Off to WSBK finale this weekend. This could more interesting than usual! What I will say is that MotoGP seemed to know about this before WSB



#1409 Rob

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 17:53

Rolfo for Pasini? Money clearly talks.

#1410 Risil

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 17:56

Indeed. I thought it was strange that the Flammini brothers (or rather Paolo: iirc Maurizio rarely speaks to the media and occupies a post closer to the inner sanctum of the Infront group) would give up the series they've built up since the early '90s without much of a fight. But maybe the call came from elsewhere.

Speaking as a British person, WSBK really has very low profile here. As far as name recognition for riders in the series goes, it largely comes from when they were in GP or BSB when the series had a terrestrial broadcaster. I reckon our Man On The Street might've heard of Leon Haslam, or Max Biaggi, or Shakey Byrne (not that he's done WSBK for a while now), but I've never met anyone who's heard of Tom Sykes or Eugene Laverty who wasn't at a WSBK race meeting.

#1411 GSiebert

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 18:58

On the other hand, I doubt your Man On The Street can name any MotoGP rider appart from Rossi. Maybe Stoner and Lorenzo but that's all.

#1412 Risil

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:09

'Kay, I meant types like "girlfriend's dad who watches the MotoGP when it's on the Beeb" and "friend who's interested in sports but mostly watches football". Even "owns a road bike and idolises Valentino Rossi". People who aren't Motorcycle News readers, but might've gone to see TT: Closer to the Edge cause they think bike racers are cool. I think WSBK -- shut up on Eurosport with zero coverage in non-specialist media (the BBC website only covers MotoGP and iirc the TT now) -- does a terrible job of reaching these people.

Edited by Risil, 02 October 2012 - 19:10.


#1413 carbonfibre

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:14

People who don't watch WSBK are really missing out on the best bike racing class today. Im sorry i know MotoGP will always attract people and is more well known but if you want to see a good fight and great races WSBK is definitly the way to go.

I really hope that they won't change the great thing they have.

#1414 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:26

Does the general public even know the difference between Superbikes and GP bikes?

#1415 Disgrace

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:28

If I had to choose which of the five bike racing series I actively follow (watching a season of races in their entirety) to drop, it would be MotoGP. WSBK is my favourite as well.

#1416 GSiebert

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:36

I think WSBK -- shut up on Eurosport with zero coverage in non-specialist media (the BBC website only covers MotoGP and iirc the TT now) -- does a terrible job of reaching these people.

I don't know, is it WSBK not doing a good job or the media deliberatly chosing to speak very little about it ? I mean there's no room for every sports and categories of the planet. Plus MotoGP has the advantage of being an "old" series, with its history, its medias and its "fan base". WSBK can not compete against that, even with better racing. They can't just create stars that will attract the general public if there's no general public watching/following it at all.

#1417 Rob

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:56

If I had to choose which of the five bike racing series I actively follow (watching a season of races in their entirety) to drop, it would be MotoGP. WSBK is my favourite as well.

I would agree, but I'd probably find it difficult to watch Moto3 and Moto2 without also watching the big class.

#1418 dhill39

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 20:03

I think Dorna having control over the two series will create problems for one series,and thats Wsbk,time will tell,but I see Wsbk will be killed off in a few years from what we have now.

#1419 GSiebert

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 20:08

I think Dorna having control over the two series will create problems for one series,and thats Wsbk,time will tell,but I see Wsbk will be killed off in a few years from what we have now.

I don't think it will be killed, but I believe they'll be much more restricted and closer to the current Superstock class, forcing the constructors who want to use competition to develop and promote their technology (Aprilia, BMW, Kawasaki) to step up to MotoGP. I can see the unlimited electronics, fuel consumption and number of engines dissappearing very quickly in WSBK.

Edited by GSiebert, 02 October 2012 - 20:12.


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#1420 bonneville

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 20:13

I think Dorna will try to differentiate both series.

I read it from their press release:

(...)


The objective is to allow both series to develop and enhance their championship personalities, retaining their leadership positions in the arena of world motorcycle road racing - WorldSBK, with its focus on production-based racing, and MotoGP with its focus on prototype racing. At the same time, both championships will benefit from joint marketing and commercial strategies.

(...)


We fully expect to develop and strengthen the distinct nature of both MotoGP and WorldSBK as separate properties and remain committed to working with teams and manufacturers, circuit owners, sponsors and broadcasters to give fans the best experience yet.

(...)



#1421 PokePoke

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 21:10

For Dorna MotoGP is their main product. Ipolitano (president of FIM) few days ago says that he will be happy with one SBK rules for national and world championship, means stock rules (with better tyres, suspention and ECU) and with and in conjunction with the aspirations Dorna (who looks a jealous eye on the factory teams of BMW, Kawasaki and Aprilia and their sponsors) to rebuild of MGP - it means one thing - nothing good for WSB. Without factory teams, sponsors they die in few seasons or become peripheral competition for small teams without money for Moto GP. Nothning like BSB.
Dorna has no interest in in buiding WSB brand. The genesis of this company is based on GP, most of the staff are people with GP background. For them WSB is just a tool(bugbear for big factories), nothing more sadly.
Few days ealier Ezpeleta says about Moto GP future:

“I want a Moto3-style MotoGP,” he said. “Four cylinders and 81mm piston diameter [as at present] plus a rev limit and the same ECU for everyone.”


The CRT is a great solution that will be made better with what we are doing for the future.


This vision with present size of WSB this just makes no sense, but with weak, small pure production-based series that's another story. Something like SBK in 2003-2004 but with stock rules and without bigger teams (like Ten Kate or Allstare in those years).

Edited by PokePoke, 02 October 2012 - 21:15.


#1422 Mr Plug

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:14

"The two series, run as separate championships in the past, will now both be organised by Dorna, at the instigation of hedge fund Bridgepoint."

There is something seriously wrong with the world when the way in which a racing series is organised is at the behest of a bunch of rapacious, money-grubbing, untrustworthy........oh, sorry, I meant to write "hedge fund managers". I hope the manufacturers get their act together and threaten to promote their own series - that should bring Dorna and co to their senses. Now, who was it who did that before.....oh yes: F1!!

#1423 Atreiu

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:04

Manufacturers getting it together and promoting their series would be 800cc: make rules they (except for Suzuki, Kawasaki and others with tremendou$ commitment) can exploit and privateers can't.

#1424 Tarzaan

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:37

John Hopkins --> Retire
Jack Valentine --> retire
Scott Redding --> Crescent Suzuki

#1425 Risil

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:56

John Hopkins --> Retire
Jack Valentine --> retire
Scott Redding --> Crescent Suzuki


Is that news or your opinion? :confused:

#1426 Bartel

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:01

From someone who enjoys Motogp well, did, this season is pretty boring now with Stoner out, anyway, from an 'outsiders look' Motogp is the F1 of Motorbikes and WSBK is the Indycar, feels second rate. I know that isn't the case, but its just the opinion of the casual viewer, MotoGP looks like the Rich Successful son and WSBK is the struggling son with more talent but can't seem to get a break.

#1427 fullthrottle

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:30

Great news!!


Casey Stoner confirms MotoGP Japan return

#1428 GSiebert

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:33

John Hopkins --> Retire
Jack Valentine --> retire
Scott Redding --> Crescent Suzuki

I knew Jack Valentine was fired from Crescent Suzuki, but Hopkins as well wow :( Any link for that news ?

Edited by GSiebert, 03 October 2012 - 11:57.


#1429 GSiebert

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:37

de Puniet and Espargaro will stay at Aspar next year.

#1430 Atreiu

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:39

Sounds okay.

#1431 bigarthurisgod

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 16:54

Hopefully WSB will now follow BSB's lead an become a glorified Superstock championship

Wouldn't be a bad move, IMO.

Does the general public even know the difference between Superbikes and GP bikes?


The general public can't tell the difference between a motorcycle and a scooter!


Anyway, just got round to watching Silverstone BSB this afternoon and wow, what another great meet.
Alex Lowes, what a boy! © T. Moody.


#1432 Risil

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 17:13

Anyway, just got round to watching Silverstone BSB this afternoon and wow, what another great meet.
Alex Lowes, what a boy! © T. Moody.


+1!

The "new" Silverstone's put on some great BSB races in the last two years.

Edited by Risil, 03 October 2012 - 17:13.


#1433 Tarzaan

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 17:15

Is that news or your opinion? :confused:



I knew Jack Valentine was fired from Crescent Suzuki, but Hopkins as well wow :( Any link for that news ?



A hungarian forum member post this today without links, but he is trusted imho.

So it's not official.

#1434 Risil

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 17:21

Redding-to-Crescent-Suzuki has appeared on Bike Sport News's website under Intrigue, Gossip and Rumour. The article also lays blame for Jonathan Rea's MotoGP rejection at the feet of San Carlo, who are paying for the Gresini bike and want an Italian. Sad, although I suspect it's the four-bikes-per-manufacturer rule that's kept Rea from a MotoGP ride in 2013.

#1435 montoyasminion

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 18:54

Seems like that would be a step in the wrong direction for Redding. I'd assume that staying in Moto2 would be easier to move up to MotoGP, regardless of his size on the bike.

#1436 maczippy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 20:12

Does the general public even know the difference between Superbikes and GP bikes?


No.

#1437 tyrrellp346wheels

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 20:19

The MotoGP championship now has 3 rounds in America as well as 4 in Spain. For a world championship, the calendar is now becoming a bit of joke.

Edited by tyrrellp346wheels, 03 October 2012 - 20:20.


#1438 Snic

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 20:29

The MotoGP championship now has 3 rounds in America as well as 4 in Spain. For a world championship, the calendar is now becoming a bit of joke.


3 races isn't that much in the land of the harley davidson. Plus Austin is definitely going to be one of the drivers+fans favourite tracks on the calender, it's even better suited to bikes than Formula cars.

#1439 Risil

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 20:43

3 races isn't that much in the land of the harley davidson. Plus Austin is definitely going to be one of the drivers+fans favourite tracks on the calender, it's even better suited to bikes than Formula cars.


No one's raced there yet!

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#1440 bigarthurisgod

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 20:51

Seems like that would be a step in the wrong direction for Redding. I'd assume that staying in Moto2 would be easier to move up to MotoGP, regardless of his size on the bike.

Well it does seem that way, but what are Scott's options? CRT to keep him in MotoGP or WSBK with some real cut and thrust racing, which he thrives on? Camier has shown that the Crescent bike can now challenge near the front with a big lad aboard, so he's bound to be tempted by a competitive ride in a competitive class. If he does go to supers then it goes to show that there's something up with the "premier" class.

Then again, he could go to AMA, aye Chubby? :rotfl:

Edited by bigarthurisgod, 03 October 2012 - 20:51.


#1441 Rob

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 21:41

Redding-to-Crescent-Suzuki has appeared on Bike Sport News's website under Intrigue, Gossip and Rumour. The article also lays blame for Jonathan Rea's MotoGP rejection at the feet of San Carlo, who are paying for the Gresini bike and want an Italian. Sad, although I suspect it's the four-bikes-per-manufacturer rule that's kept Rea from a MotoGP ride in 2013.


The four bike rule is idiotic. At a time when the series needs more prototypes, putting artificial limits in place is one of the craziest things they could have done.

#1442 Risil

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:19

Soup piece covering the Bridgepoint/Dorna/Infront/GP/SBK love-in, mentions the usual points but makes an extra one that I hadn't yet come across or thought of:

Another immediately clear result of this seismic announcement is the kneecapping of circuit owners and organizers. No longer can they play World Superbike against MotoGP when negotiating deals with Dorna for MotoGP events.

Dorna controls both series, and presumably will set sanctioning fees and negotiate sanctioning agreements for both. If a track doesn't like its proposed MotoGP deal, the option of a cut-rate WSBK contract from a rival promotional group is gone.

The biggest fulcrum in global motorcycle racing just moved to Pinar, 7—28006 Madrid, Spain—Dorna's global headquarters. The remaining fallout continues to settle. But Dorna may well be the new landlord of global motorcycle racing, and every other entity involved may just be a tenant.


As someone said on here a few pages ago, maybe there's an anti-trust lawsuit on the horizon. Can any commercial lawyers help us out?

Edited by Risil, 03 October 2012 - 22:19.


#1443 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:30

No.


:lol:

I guess the question then is does having WSBK and MotoGP competing simply dilute the audience for both or can a way be found for them not to encroach upon one another's markets?

Any of you Brits know how the Motostar class is divided? A California kid finished 6th on the road but 3rd in his class. BSB web site doesn't explain the difference. I know Moto3 bikes are legal now, is that the difference?


Got clarification on this

To clarify, the Monster Energy Motostar Cup is two-races-in-one. The cup is made up of kids 13 to 16. In the cup Anthony finished 3rd, and on the podium. Overall he finished 6th, and only 2 tenths behind 5th.

Because he qualified so badly, but "charged up the field" he was also given the "hard-charger" award.


Probably too soon for a "remember this name!" moment but since I've been involved in racing here in California Anthony Alonso is the first kid to come along and really stand out in a big way. I'm not close with them so I don't have any insights into his plans but hopefully they're working on a Red Bull Rookies or national series Moto3 move in the coming years, coming out to club races and beating up on old men on 250s isn't doing much for him. :drunk:

#1444 GSiebert

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:58

Corti quickly landed on his feet as he will race at Magny Cours on the Pedercini Kawasaki.

#1445 Atreiu

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:41

The MotoGP championship now has 3 rounds in America as well as 4 in Spain. For a world championship, the calendar is now becoming a bit of joke.



The USA is a huge country with literally hundreds of millions of people of its own and more than enough to fuel a proper bike racing culture. Not to mention the Austin round also suits those who would/will/might travel from other countres in America, the continent, without going all the way to California or Indy.

I'm more bothered by the 4 races in Spain. Nowadays, those which I think add the most to the calendar are Jerez and Aragon. But if the others pay, then why not? Spaniards love their bike racing.

WSBK seemed to be stealing MotoGP's thunder by going first to India and Russia and mixing both series' expansion ambitions. Hopefully it will be sorted out now. It needs to be sorted because there are not so many weekends through the year to support 32+ race meetings from MotoGP and WSBK plus so much needed winter breaks without clashes with themselves and F1 and all the other racing in the world.

Edited by Atreiu, 04 October 2012 - 09:43.


#1446 montoyasminion

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 14:10

The USA is a huge country with literally hundreds of millions of people of its own and more than enough to fuel a proper bike racing culture. Not to mention the Austin round also suits those who would/will/might travel from other countres in America, the continent, without going all the way to California or Indy.

Even at the Indy races, there was a large Latin American crowd. I would expect Austin to be the same.

#1447 Atreiu

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 15:37

Me too. The more the merrier!

#1448 PokePoke

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 22:14

Stupid, just silly move by Dorna. USA have 3 GP now.... and sold tv rights to cable channel. In that case size of market doesn't matter - if they want to exploit the potential of this market, with 3 races Dorna must provide more slots in network channels.
It combines nicely with Dorna's last actions again their second most important market - Italy, where Ezpeleta sold tv licence to high price satelite pay tv - Sky Sports. And then they complain about poor tv ratio and the lack of sponsors. Yeah, under their umbrella WSBk secure future........

#1449 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 23:09

I don't think they really had a choice. NASCAR gets network coverage and that's it. Indy won't soon. There's no way MotoGP is doing better than those guys so there's no way that they're getting on anywhere else.

#1450 Rob

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:34

Aspar to stick with Jonas Folger in Moto3 next year - he could well be a threat to Vinales for the championship.