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2012 - MotoGP, WSB, Moto2, WSP, AMA, BSB Part II


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#1501 Muz Bee

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:05

The Dorna move on WSBK is bad for both series in my opinion. Dorna have failed to do justice to MotoGP in recent years although to be fair, the factory cutbacks have played a big part. The seeds of today's MotoGP poverty could be seen years ago in the flexing of Honda muscle years ago which resulted in the 500s being replaced by factory 4-stroke "990 prototypes". It was pointed out by all and sundry at the time that this would escalate the costs to teams and factories. That has now come to bear. Pathetic grids, rider electronics that take away the genius touch of the very best riders, the aimless introduction of the CRT class, multiple Spanish events, and dwindling crowds are just some of the negatives which point to the rapid demise of the best world motorsport series 5 years ago, to the basket case of 2011 and 2012.

Ezpeleta seems to have no respect for the finer traditions of World GP Motorcycle, or of playing the politics between all the parties. The downfall of MotoGP has been swift even if wiser insiders have seen it coming for some years. Dorna certainly haven't done what Bernie Ecclestone did for GP racing on four wheels. Ezpeleta took a very healthy sport and applied marketing principles to increase the commercial result but failed to see the bigger picture.

Perhaps a few basics of their operation which are big fails are indicators of the ineptitude of this company - the website is a disaster zone in this modern age (even if not as bad as the appalling WSBK version), and the commentary team for the English speaking TV coverage is befitting of a club event. Harris and his hapless buddy come up with howlers every weekend and just don't have any idea of what is developing on track most of the time. The simple formula for commentary is - you must have at least one experienced recent competitor and preferably both should have been competitors. My quick fix solution to Dorna for TV broadcast - give us live sound on one channel and Nick Harris on the other so we can choose to turn his droning voice off.

Now WSBK - a basically level 2 world event albeit with good competitor numbers and reasonable spectator following - will get the Dorna touch. I can only guess what havoc Ezpelita will wreak on this series in coming seasons. At least they may be able to marginally improve the dreadful website and commentary team featuring the screaming skull of Jonathon Green.

With Stoner retiring and Rossi now well off his best the feature class has currently only two riders regularly capable of winning. New talent (and I doubt that Marquez will be good enough until 2015 if ever) takes time so I don't expect epic MotoGP in the near future. Maybe Casey made the right move after all.

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#1502 Rob

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:28

The seeds of today's MotoGP poverty could be seen years ago in the flexing of Honda muscle years ago which resulted in the 500s being replaced by factory 4-stroke "990 prototypes". It was pointed out by all and sundry at the time that this would escalate the costs to teams and factories. That has now come to bear. Pathetic grids, rider electronics that take away the genius touch of the very best riders, the aimless introduction of the CRT class, multiple Spanish events, and dwindling crowds are just some of the negatives which point to the rapid demise of the best world motorsport series 5 years ago, to the basket case of 2011 and 2012.


I think even 500cc two strokes would have gone the same way. Having two fewer strokes per engine cycle would not decrease costs. They'd still have electronic fuel injection and as such they'd have all the electronics of the four stroke bikes. They would be just as expensive as a modern 1000cc four stroke prototype.

#1503 Rob

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:39

Danny Kent to Tech 3 Moto2 in 2013 with a two year deal.
Luis Salom to Red Bull KTM.
Smiths Triumph to become official Triumph works team in British Supersport.

Edited by Rob, 08 October 2012 - 11:48.


#1504 Risil

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 15:45

Dorna certainly haven't done what Bernie Ecclestone did for GP racing on four wheels.


Apples and oranges. If Ecclestone had the magic touch, why aren't we talking about how he revolutionised two-wheeled GP racing when he was the one promoting it? Dorna were a big improvement iirc. What F1 did that MotoGP never managed was packaging itself as the sport of the super-rich. Without money from China, Bahrain, Singapore and Abu Dhabi Formula One would be in the same hole MotoGP finds itself in now. But I doubt bike racing will ever appeal to authoritarian governments in quite the same way. And when big government motor racing projects do show an interest, WSBK offers a smaller race fee and less demanding set of requirements. Hello, New Delhi. Hello, Moscow.

Even in relatively liberal places like the UK and US, the establishment has always had a clear preference for four-wheeled racing, not two. Dorna can't change that, either, although coming from a southern European country which does respect its motorcycle racers, they're perhaps not in the best position to understand it.

Dorna have made a few missteps though. It's debateable whether promoting one class above all others and concentrating marketing and manufacturer investment there has really helped things. The marketing and TV advantages are pretty clear, but it seems to have made the whole product more susceptible to the whims of a couple of Japanese conglomerates. And wherever the ultimate fault in this lies, their relationships with most bike manufacturers soured disastrously toward the end of the decade. It's been said that Dorna do not negotiate their TV contracts as well as they might, but the presence of WSBK to drive the price down doesn't help them much. Competition was never something Bernie Ecclestone tolerated for long.

#1505 Risil

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 15:57

I think even 500cc two strokes would have gone the same way. Having two fewer strokes per engine cycle would not decrease costs. They'd still have electronic fuel injection and as such they'd have all the electronics of the four stroke bikes. They would be just as expensive as a modern 1000cc four stroke prototype.


I'm not an engineer, but a few people would disagree with you there. A four-stroke engine is intrinsically much more complex, revs a lot higher, contains many more moving parts. It's true that there's no reason why two-strokes wouldn't benefit from very expensive electronics, although given the racing world's complete disowning of two-stroke technology in recent years, that's not a statement that's easy to test.

I thought one of the arguments made at the time of four-strokes' adoption was that sure, they'd be more expensive, but manufacturers would invest far more in racing bikes that were mechanically more similar to their road offerings. (Again, compete with WSBK.) As it turned out, that prediction was absolutely and fatally true.

#1506 bigarthurisgod

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 16:10

I think even 500cc two strokes would have gone the same way. Having two fewer strokes per engine cycle would not decrease costs. They'd still have electronic fuel injection and as such they'd have all the electronics of the four stroke bikes. They would be just as expensive as a modern 1000cc four stroke prototype.

Shame we'll never get to find out if that's true, mate. ):


#1507 Rob

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 21:09

Shame we'll never get to find out if that's true, mate. ):

I don't think they're completely dead yet. Direct injection technology might bring them back from the brink. We'll have to wait and see.

#1508 bigarthurisgod

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 22:14

I don't think they're completely dead yet. Direct injection technology might bring them back from the brink. We'll have to wait and see.

Orbital in Oz are doing some wunnerful stuff with DI strokers, If only the rules could be changed to encourage an "anything goes" culture in prototype racing, what a wonderful world it would be!

#1509 kosmic33

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 22:53

Orbital in Oz are doing some wunnerful stuff with DI strokers, If only the rules could be changed to encourage an "anything goes" culture in prototype racing, what a wonderful world it would be!

I'm pretty certain it happened 10 years ago.......

#1510 BMW4life

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 23:42

It was pointed out by all and sundry at the time that this would escalate the costs to teams and factories. That has now come to bear. Pathetic grids, rider electronics that take away the genius touch of the very best riders, the aimless introduction of the CRT class, multiple Spanish events, and dwindling crowds are just some of the negatives which point to the rapid demise of the best world motorsport series 5 years ago, to the basket case of 2011 and 2012.

Ezpeleta seems to have no respect for the finer traditions of World GP Motorcycle, or of playing the politics between all the parties. The downfall of MotoGP has been swift even if wiser insiders have seen it coming for some years. Dorna certainly haven't done what Bernie Ecclestone did for GP racing on four wheels. Ezpeleta took a very healthy sport and applied marketing principles to increase the commercial result but failed to see the bigger picture.

Perhaps a few basics of their operation which are big fails are indicators of the ineptitude of this company - the website is a disaster zone in this modern age (even if not as bad as the appalling WSBK version), and the commentary team for the English speaking TV coverage is befitting of a club event. Harris and his hapless buddy come up with howlers every weekend and just don't have any idea of what is developing on track most of the time. The simple formula for commentary is - you must have at least one experienced recent competitor and preferably both should have been competitors. My quick fix solution to Dorna for TV broadcast - give us live sound on one channel and Nick Harris on the other so we can choose to turn his droning voice off.

Now WSBK - a basically level 2 world event albeit with good competitor numbers and reasonable spectator following - will get the Dorna touch. I can only guess what havoc Ezpelita will wreak on this series in coming seasons. At least they may be able to marginally improve the dreadful website and commentary team featuring the screaming skull of Jonathon Green.

With Stoner retiring and Rossi now well off his best the feature class has currently only two riders regularly capable of winning. New talent (and I doubt that Marquez will be good enough until 2015 if ever) takes time so I don't expect epic MotoGP in the near future. Maybe Casey made the right move after all.


:confused: What was so obvious that moving to 4 stroke machinery would result in increased electronics... and this is a genuine question. Why would the electronics on a 4 stroker be so much more advanced than on a 2 stroker? Can't you provide different maps for a 2 stroker? Can't you have fuel injection for a two stroker? Can you have traction control and anti wheelie software on a two stroker? Please enlighten...

#1511 Risil

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 00:20

Taking the pragmatic view, if MotoGP had stayed with two-strokes no one would ever have tried to sell the racing as a fuel economy exercise. Although maybe with DI, they'd have tried anyway.

Edited by Risil, 09 October 2012 - 00:20.


#1512 wiligates

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 05:35

Sticking with two strokes we would have a series with two manufacturers competing.Honda and Yamaha.No one else asides from a poor cousin in Suzuki who were in the loop were interested in developing a two stroke.
The dream was to have independent engine builders/teams come in to the series such as Illmor, or Cosworth, etc.Never really eventuated.
The one mildly positive thing to say about the 4 stroke era is that Ducati popped in and looked relevant for a little while.

#1513 Rob

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:38

Nicky Hayden has a fracture in his right radius from his Aragon crash. He's still going to race in Japan though.
Julian Simon to Italtrans Moto2 next year to partner Takaaki Nakagami.

#1514 piszkosfred

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:19

Factories wanted 4 strokes because they sell 4 strokes. Roberts sr. said long before 2002 that racing will be more expensive by far. But MSMA had other ideas and Dorna didn't have the power in technical matters. Of course sponsorship and economy was different then.

On the commercial side: motorcycle racing is a niche sport and that won't change. There are some countries where it's very popular (Italy, Spain, former East Germany, former East block, Japan, Indonesia) but not much in others.

#1515 Ellios

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:21

Love him, hate him or whinge about his whinging - He's back!

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for final few times we get to see Casey Stoner's ability to ride a prototype MotoGP bike like no one else

#1516 Atreiu

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:16

:up:

#1517 fullthrottle

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:17

Glad that Stoner made it to Motegi :p

Casey Stoner ‏@Official_CS27
Gas, brake, gas, brake, gas, brake, gas, brake... That's been my morning so far, being driven from Tokyo to Motegi #needthrottlecontrol

Casey Stoner ‏@Official_CS27
Now my driver just missed the exit that the GPS was telling him to take, added 25mins to the trip...yay.

Casey Stoner ‏@Official_CS27
Ok this is getting annoying now, he just missed another exit. Now it's saying we're going to be 45mins later.

Casey Stoner ‏@Official_CS27
And another one, now we are an hour later. Maybe he's taking me to another Twin Ring Motegi Circuit.



#1518 bigarthurisgod

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:02

Glad that Stoner made it to Motegi :p


Still whinging then! :lol: :lol:


#1519 goldenboy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:03

ha he doesn't waste much time to start complaining does he :p

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#1520 Risil

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:04

:up: :lol:

I feel like we've learned a lot today.

#1521 Bartel

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:27

Glad that Stoner made it to Motegi :p

hahaha being a fellow Aussie im surprised he didn't tell the driver to get out so he could drive himself there

#1522 Seanspeed

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 14:08

Finally saw the final WSBK races. Melandri really threw away this championship so badly....geez.

#1523 Disgrace

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:51

Four crashes in the final six (one subsequent DNS) has made me question his future title credentials. He only had two prior DNFs, so what happened?

Biaggi also made a big error in four of the last five weekends as well. I think Sykes was pretty much robbed by Badovini and that engine going in Portugal.

Edited by Disgrace, 10 October 2012 - 15:54.


#1524 Tarzaan

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:52

Talmácsi Gábor will stay in PRORACE Honda in next year. The team want to improve their performance to beable to fight with the leaders.

Edited by Tarzaan, 10 October 2012 - 15:58.


#1525 kosmic33

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:34

Four crashes in the final six (one subsequent DNS) has made me question his future title credentials. He only had two prior DNFs, so what happened?

Biaggi also made a big error in four of the last five weekends as well. I think Sykes was pretty much robbed by Badovini and that engine going in Portugal.

Sykes was definitely the only one not to crumble under the pressure, which you wouldnt have expected considering the calibre of riders he was competing with.

Still, I think his day will come!!!

#1526 wati

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:39

Biaggi also made a big error in four of the last five weekends as well. I think Sykes was pretty much robbed by Badovini and that engine going in Portugal.


Sykes wasn't robbed of anything. It's a team effort. While Max crashed too often in the final stages, Tom was too slow at the start of the campaign.


#1527 Seanspeed

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:54

Sykes wasn't robbed of anything. It's a team effort. While Max crashed too often in the final stages, Tom was too slow at the start of the campaign.

Tom was lucky to be in it at all, I think. He was well back in the points before Melandri and Biaggi started competing to see who could crash more.

#1528 GSiebert

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:02

Yeah but you could also say he was unlucky his bike eats rear tires as fast as americans eat burgers.

#1529 kosmic33

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:03

Tom was lucky to be in it at all, I think. He was well back in the points before Melandri and Biaggi started competing to see who could crash more.

With the irony of it all being that it was bad luck (hello Badovini/Monza weather) that cost him the championship!

#1530 Disgrace

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:15

Sykes wasn't robbed of anything. It's a team effort. While Max crashed too often in the final stages, Tom was too slow at the start of the campaign.


He was on pole for the opening couple of rounds. I don't think there is any blame to be had for the lack of race pace for what seems like most of the year. It's a new team with a relatively new bike and it took a while for them to start getting the best out of the tyres. It's a team effort indeed.

Tom was lucky to be in it at all, I think. He was well back in the points before Melandri and Biaggi started competing to see who could crash more.


I'm not sure I agree, I find those two sentences contradict each other somewhat. It wasn't a question of luck that saw Sykes staying on the bike whilst the other two fell. For example, some of Biaggi's errors were pretty fundamental for someone of his experience (wet kerb at Silverstone, missed braking point in Russia). Perhaps there was less pressure on him due to less expectations, though.

Sykes' great season does contrast vastly with his season on the factory Yamaha alongside Spies, I wonder what that was all about.

Edited by Disgrace, 10 October 2012 - 18:20.


#1531 Seanspeed

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:31

He was on pole for the opening couple of rounds. I don't think there is any blame to be had for the lack of race pace for what seems like most of the year. It's a new team with a relatively new bike and it took a while for them to start getting the best out of the tyres.

Their pace stayed pretty constant throughout the season. Massively quick in qualifying, massively quick off-the-line and then either good or mediocre in the race, but never great(unless it was wet) with the rears usually falling off at some point after the 75% mark.

I'm not sure I agree, I find those two sentences contradict each other somewhat. It wasn't a question of luck that saw Sykes staying on the bike whilst the other two fell. For example, some of Biaggi's errors were pretty fundamental for someone of his experience (wet kerb at Silverstone, missed braking point in Russia). Perhaps there was less pressure on him due to less expectations, though.

Well thats the thing - you really wouldn't have expected Biaggi and Melandri to have crashed as much as they did. Thats why I think Tom was lucky. He was kind of at the mercy of relying on others to do badly rather than being able to go win it for himself. He did a good job, dont get me wrong, but all Melandri had to do was keep the bike stood up for a few races in the last 3 race weekends and Biaggi was in the same situation but didn't crash quite as much, enabling him to still win the title. I hear people talk sometimes about a driver/rider 'throwing away' the championship, but often times, its a case of circumstances and I dont really like the term. But I really do think its apt to say that Melandri threw away the championship while Biaggi nearly did as well.

@Kosmic - not sure that one round can be attributed. At least nobody scored points that one race in Monza. Melandri was taken out by his teammate in Donington in that travesty of a collision. That sort of zero points score hurts more cuz his main rivals finished 1st and 2nd.

#1532 Andy35

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 05:34

It's pretty amazing I think that a team like Kawasaki who have not been at the forefront for a long time are back there with a man who reinvented himself. Good work.

Well done to Max too, I like it when the old timers still do well.

Nice picture of Lascorz, it is a very tough thing to be one day doing anything you want and next not being able to even move parts of your body, it hits the mind as well so you have mental problems as well as physical to overcome.

It's rather ridiculous that people are still going around in wheelchairs in this age. Mind you we have very smart bombs now, great.

Andy

#1533 bigarthurisgod

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:00

It's pretty amazing I think that a team like Kawasaki who have not been at the forefront for a long time are back there with a man who reinvented himself. Good work.

Well done to Max too, I like it when the old timers still do well.

Nice picture of Lascorz, it is a very tough thing to be one day doing anything you want and next not being able to even move parts of your body, it hits the mind as well so you have mental problems as well as physical to overcome.

It's rather ridiculous that people are still going around in wheelchairs in this age. Mind you we have very smart bombs now, great.

Andy


:up: :up: :up:


#1534 GSiebert

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:49

Nakasuga will enter the Japanese GP with a wild card Yamaha M1.

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I expect him to win with a 20s margin.

#1535 Risil

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:59

That local knowledge has got to count for something, right?

#1536 GSiebert

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:19

Exactly. Smart move Yamaha.

#1537 THE "driverider"

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:23

Nakasuga will enter the Japanese GP with a wild card Yamaha M1.

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I expect him to win with a 20s margin.

He didn't fair to bad in Valencia.

#1538 GSiebert

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 17:25

As expected, big technical changes are coming for 2014 : http://motomatters.c...togp_no_ch.html

#1539 carbonfibre

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 17:39

As i said before i dont have a good feeling about all this, im afraid that 2013 will be the last great Wsbk season. And after that when ezpeleta gets his hands on it the series will go down the drain. He already screwed up Motogp a lot.

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#1540 montoyasminion

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 17:46

He screwed up motogp by listening to the manufacturers and letting them have their way.

#1541 GSiebert

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:06

As i said before i dont have a good feeling about all this, im afraid that 2013 will be the last great Wsbk season. And after that when ezpeleta gets his hands on it the series will go down the drain. He already screwed up Motogp a lot.

I'm not sure about that. Of course its probably the end of an era in WSBK, where bikes were closer to prototypes than real production bikes, but we can also see the number of privateer entries is shrinking. WSBK rules being more restrictive could also mean that by changing only a few things on their bikes, teams from national series could move up to WSBK or wild card a lot more often than now. Control ECU surely didn't do any harm to BSB for example.

#1542 Orn

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:39

Posted Image


is it just me or does the colour scheme look epic.

#1543 Tarzaan

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:50

As expected, big technical changes are coming for 2014 : http://motomatters.c...togp_no_ch.html


I bet this ** *** will destroy WSBK :(

http://www.crash.net...otogp_wsbk.html

#1544 GSiebert

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:07

You're seeing the WSBK better than what it really is. While the racing is good at the front, the grid is smaller every year, wild cards almost inexistant, attendance is low and nobody is bloody watching them on TV. It can't last forever like this.

Edited by GSiebert, 11 October 2012 - 19:09.


#1545 Atreiu

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:14

is it just me or does the colour scheme look epic.

Actually looks good.

#1546 bigarthurisgod

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:30

You're seeing the WSBK better than what it really is. While the racing is good at the front, the grid is smaller every year, wild cards almost inexistant, attendance is low and nobody is bloody watching them on TV. It can't last forever like this.

In a way.....
http://www.bikesport...amp;newsid=8221
.......I can see where he's coming from and I suppose you can argue that a company like Aprilia, say, could well consider a return to MotoGP, if WSB wasn't costing them so much. Then again, I can see that there's another side to that arguement. Trying to run, improve and grow the 2 series could well prove impossible. For the sport's sake, I hope they're up to the job, but their record with the premier class doesn't exactly fill me with hope.

Edited by bigarthurisgod, 11 October 2012 - 19:31.


#1547 rhukkas

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:36

In terms of competition I think only one series will win out. I can't see how Dorna can absorb both series and make them both flourish. They are both world championships and both contain professional riders and both produce very similar lap times. I can't see how they can make the marketabley different enough to sell them on their own merits.

I think two completely rival championships would be far healthier than the situation we are looking at now. WSBK will certainly lose out in this one.

Edited by rhukkas, 11 October 2012 - 19:37.


#1548 GSiebert

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:10

Trying to run, improve and grow the 2 series could well prove impossible.


It's in Bridgepoint and Dorna's interest to make sure both series are profitable, they'll always make more money with 30 races a year than 15.
And everybody fears that WSBK will pay the price of this merger, but it will stay a lot cheaper than MotoGP, and because not everybody can shine in MotoGP, you'll always have constructors that'll shift their focus to WSBK where they could be at the front for less money, like Aprilia BMW and Kawasaki today.

Edited by GSiebert, 11 October 2012 - 20:11.


#1549 bigarthurisgod

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 21:26

It's in Bridgepoint and Dorna's interest to make sure both series are profitable, they'll always make more money with 30 races a year than 15.
And everybody fears that WSBK will pay the price of this merger, but it will stay a lot cheaper than MotoGP, and because not everybody can shine in MotoGP, you'll always have constructors that'll shift their focus to WSBK where they could be at the front for less money, like Aprilia BMW and Kawasaki today.

Quite right, but a lot depends on how much they water down WSB to pull it away from MotoGP, considering how much the latter is watered down already. If it turns into a class for glorified superbikes (ie CRTs) then where will that leave the production based class and how will it affect and already dwindling audience. Are Dorna capable of pulling it off, especially if the manufacturers try and dictate the rules in the same way as in MotoGP? Interesting............


#1550 Rob

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 10:30

Doctors told Casey Stoner that his ankle will take 6-8 months to heal and that he was mad for trying to race again. It's affecting him more than he thought it would and he says it'll be difficult for him to win again.