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2012 - MotoGP, WSB, Moto2, WSP, AMA, BSB Part II


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#2251 carbonfibre

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 15:29

Well come on this year wasn't all that boring, Espargaro put up a pretty good fight but was outrun in the end. Marquez truly is something special so far, i can't wait to see how he will do in the MotoGP.

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#2252 Showty

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 15:37

Having the fastest bike helps in the wet does it ?


Thing that u achieve by being the most talented driver and being able to find the perfect setup.



#2253 olliek88

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 16:15

Thing that u achieve by being the most talented driver and being able to find the perfect setup.


Not to mention being tiny in a non combined weight series. Marc has looked very, very good so far but that doesn't guarantee he'll cut it on the big bikes. Just look at what Stoner did and didn't achieve in GP & 125/250s respectively. Same goes for Dani, its not a foregone conclusion that he is another Rossi or anything. Guys like Redding are always going to look worse on small bikes without a combined weight limit and guys like Marquez are always going to look better.

I'm not saying he's not a hugely talented rider but its far from certain that he'll be as good as some think at GP level on GP bikes.

#2254 kpchelsea

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 16:54

Not to mention being tiny in a non combined weight series. Marc has looked very, very good so far but that doesn't guarantee he'll cut it on the big bikes. Just look at what Stoner did and didn't achieve in GP & 125/250s respectively. Same goes for Dani, its not a foregone conclusion that he is another Rossi or anything. Guys like Redding are always going to look worse on small bikes without a combined weight limit and guys like Marquez are always going to look better.

I'm not saying he's not a hugely talented rider but its far from certain that he'll be as good as some think at GP level on GP bikes.

Is Marquez not heavier than Stoner?

#2255 milestone 11

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 17:35

Dani so nearly dropped the F-bomb then!

Cortese did! Totally Vettled the interview.


#2256 Tonka

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 17:43

Not to mention being tiny in a non combined weight series. Marc has looked very, very good so far but that doesn't guarantee he'll cut it on the big bikes. Just look at what Stoner did and didn't achieve in GP & 125/250s respectively. Same goes for Dani, its not a foregone conclusion that he is another Rossi or anything. Guys like Redding are always going to look worse on small bikes without a combined weight limit and guys like Marquez are always going to look better.

I'm not saying he's not a hugely talented rider but its far from certain that he'll be as good as some think at GP level on GP bikes.


Marques is heavier than Stoner & Dani. Stoner was lucky in his career. He only got injured once and that was this year. Did you notice the difference it made to his riding - he didn't try too hard today, because he didn't want to get hurt again. If he'd received half of the damage that Dani has suffered, I don't think he'd have been so fearless on the track.



#2257 kpchelsea

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 18:04

Marques is heavier than Stoner & Dani. Stoner was lucky in his career. He only got injured once and that was this year. Did you notice the difference it made to his riding - he didn't try too hard today, because he didn't want to get hurt again. If he'd received half of the damage that Dani has suffered, I don't think he'd have been so fearless on the track.

You make it sound like all that you need to be fast is to be fearless. also he clearly was just looking to protect his injury

#2258 SpaMaster

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 18:05

Marques is heavier than Stoner & Dani. Stoner was lucky in his career. He only got injured once and that was this year. Did you notice the difference it made to his riding - he didn't try too hard today, because he didn't want to get hurt again. If he'd received half of the damage that Dani has suffered, I don't think he'd have been so fearless on the track.

Not because he did not want to get hurt EVER. He just didn't want to suffer any injury at the same place while just recovering from it. Perfectly reasonable.

#2259 olliek88

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 18:13

Is Marquez not heavier than Stoner?


How is Marquez's weight vs Stoners relevant?

I'm just saying that having great results in the lower series doesn't mean you'll be great in MotoGP. Casey had good but not brilliant result and Dani had brilliant result in 125s/250s but its hard to argue that Dani is now the better rider of the two.

Of course Casey doesn't want to injure his foot any more, he's (probably) going to V8s so having a wrecked foot isn't go to do his chances any good, if he was in the title fight and not packing it in i suspect he might not have the same attitude.

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#2260 Jamelon

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 18:24

Not to mention being tiny in a non combined weight series. Marc has looked very, very good so far but that doesn't guarantee he'll cut it on the big bikes. Just look at what Stoner did and didn't achieve in GP & 125/250s respectively. Same goes for Dani, its not a foregone conclusion that he is another Rossi or anything. Guys like Redding are always going to look worse on small bikes without a combined weight limit and guys like Marquez are always going to look better.

I'm not saying he's not a hugely talented rider but its far from certain that he'll be as good as some think at GP level on GP bikes.


Marquez is 1.68 m and 59 kg, Stoner 1.70 m/58 kg, Lorenzo is 1.72 m/55 kg.

He's not particularly short or light for a gp rider at all, he's about average compared to his opponents. He's riding is pure talent.

#2261 kpchelsea

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 18:37

How is Marquez's weight vs Stoners relevant?

I'm just saying that having great results in the lower series doesn't mean you'll be great in MotoGP. Casey had good but not brilliant result and Dani had brilliant result in 125s/250s but its hard to argue that Dani is now the better rider of the two.

Of course Casey doesn't want to injure his foot any more, he's (probably) going to V8s so having a wrecked foot isn't go to do his chances any good, if he was in the title fight and not packing it in i suspect he might not have the same attitude.

I'm just pointing out that Marquez is not super light and i hardly see Pedrosa with his 20+ wins in the top class as being any kind of failure, Marquez will surely win races in the top class as well

#2262 olliek88

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 18:58

I'm just pointing out that Marquez is not super light and i hardly see Pedrosa with his 20+ wins in the top class as being any kind of failure, Marquez will surely win races in the top class as well


I never said or even inferred that Dani was any kind of failure, just that his 125/500 results were significantly better than Stoners but Stoner has turned out to be the better of the two. I think Marquez is very talented but i'm going to reserve judgement until we've seen him on the GP bikes.

#2263 PEW

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 19:20

Three good races but very poor attendance for Spain :down:

#2264 jrg19

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 19:27

Just caught up with the race, Lorenzo didn't need to push though like that.


His crash could have been a lot worse.

#2265 BetaVersion

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 19:35

If Marquez bike really doesn't have anything illegal in it, the guy is a genious and will be a multiple champion in MotoGP

Watch out Dani and the rest

#2266 kpchelsea

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 19:52

I never said or even inferred that Dani was any kind of failure, just that his 125/500 results were significantly better than Stoners but Stoner has turned out to be the better of the two. I think Marquez is very talented but i'm going to reserve judgement until we've seen him on the GP bikes.

But that depends on what's expected of him

#2267 piszkosfred

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 20:18

Marquez is 1.68 m and 59 kg, Stoner 1.70 m/58 kg, Lorenzo is 1.72 m/55 kg.

Sorry, but i think that is team data, nobody weighed them at the track.

#2268 hotstickyslick

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 20:19

If Marquez bike really doesn't have anything illegal in it, the guy is a genious and will be a multiple champion in MotoGP

Watch out Dani and the rest

The bike and tyres in the Moto2 class seem to suit Marquez I think. A MotoGP bike, especially on Bridgestone tyres is a very different beast. I'll be surprised if Marquez wins a race next year.

#2269 Risil

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 21:04

He's not particularly short or light for a gp rider at all, he's about average compared to his opponents. He's riding is pure talent.


He's certainly not average compared to Scott Redding.

I think Marquez will do fine in MotoGP, so long as he gets through the initial learning process without hurting himself too badly. Remember Lorenzo in 2008?

#2270 sopa

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 21:21

I'll be surprised if Marquez wins a race next year.


I think Marquez will win races next year, but also he will be too inconsistent with several crashes to keep up with Lorenzo, Pedrosa and perhaps Rossi in the points race. Perhaps in 2014 he can challenge for the title if he really is THAT good.

#2271 Boxerevo

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 21:34

If Marquez bike really doesn't have anything illegal in it, the guy is a genious and will be a multiple champion in MotoGP

Watch out Dani and the rest

Truth.

Or he has a big bike advantage,or he is the new real deal.

#2272 Disgrace

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 21:48

The bike and tyres in the Moto2 class seem to suit Marquez I think. A MotoGP bike, especially on Bridgestone tyres is a very different beast. I'll be surprised if Marquez wins a race next year.


It's not like his Moto2 form has been unprecedented though. He also dominated the '10 125cc season, and should have won by a more comfortable margin but for two DNFs not of his making. I'd be very surprised if he couldn't carry his form to MotoGP, even if it's the biggest step. I expect him to be winning races but perhaps hitting the deck more often than he is used to.

#2273 Risil

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 22:36

Wow didn't expect to see Badovini in this team, good for him, I always thought he was underrated.


Out the door at the BMW satellite squad, to riding the second works Ducati. Talk about landing on your feet...

#2274 kpchelsea

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 22:41

He's certainly not average compared to Scott Redding.

I think Marquez will do fine in MotoGP, so long as he gets through the initial learning process without hurting himself too badly. Remember Lorenzo in 2008?

Scott Redding is not exactly average though

#2275 Atreiu

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 22:51

Why didn't you guys go on to Espargaros' weight and possible cheating after Phillip Island?



#2276 kosmic33

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 23:08

Doesnt look like we'll get much chance to see how Marquez compares to the rest this week.
Rain forecast for all 3 days......
http://www.accuweath...forecast/310683

#2277 Tonka

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 23:10

Truth.

Or he has a big bike advantage,or he is the new real deal.


What bike advantage did he need today, when he got up to 13th by the 4th corner?



#2278 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:36

Nakasuga's race was the highlight of the season for me. :up:

#2279 Boxerevo

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:59

What bike advantage did he need today, when he got up to 13th by the 4th corner?

Confidence.

But i am just telling the truth,or he has it or he is just MUCH better than the rest.

Last season,there was a race i don't remember which,that he almost overtook everybody in one,two turns.

This is brutal,its not about consistency,raw pace... its just about feeling and grip.

So he is a genius and feel like anyone else or he knows the bike really can do it.

Probably is both,Just my opinion.

Edited by Boxerevo, 12 November 2012 - 04:03.


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#2280 Muz Bee

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:59

What's with the on again, off again nature of Ant West's career? I'm not Australian but I fail to see why he hasn't ever secured a top ride. He's taken some very slow bikes into the points and if it rains he's always right up there - a sure sign of a rider maximising his equipment.

Seems like there's a surplus of Spanish events and riders, some of them excellent, others hardly worthy of a shot at world championship racing. In the meantime, riders like West seem to be treated like a substitute rider. His last two rides produced podiums while his teammate has proven totally uncompetitive throughout the season. Am I alone in wondering why he wasn't on the grid yesterday and why he still struggles to get a competitive ride?

#2281 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:36

He had a factory MotoGP bike for a season and a half but didn't do much with it. He probably doesn't get top rides because the people running teams feel that there are more talented riders than him.

#2282 Andy35

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:12

Marquez is amazing, but he still cannot stop riding into people. Once in FP2 and then even in the race. It will be interesting to see whether he continues in the same vein when he is in MotoGP. I'll be interested to see how he gets on with the tyres, the increase in power will not be an issue with his talent.

Well done Dani, good end to a very good season. Looks like the Honda will be still the bike to have next year. Poor performance from Rossi once on dry tyres, I think he couldn't be bothered to be honest, just waiting for Tuesday.

The BBC team for MotoGP were rubbish, they couldn't get anything right, including positions of riders etc, where they actually watching the race or too busy with the patter?

Andy

#2283 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:11

Doesnt look like we'll get much chance to see how Marquez compares to the rest this week.
Rain forecast for all 3 days......
http://www.accuweath...forecast/310683

Yamaha considering moving to Aragon for the week

#2284 carbuff

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:30

Marquez is amazing, but he still cannot stop riding into people. Once in FP2 and then even in the race. It will be interesting to see whether he continues in the same vein when he is in MotoGP. I'll be interested to see how he gets on with the tyres, the increase in power will not be an issue with his talent.

Well done Dani, good end to a very good season. Looks like the Honda will be still the bike to have next year. Poor performance from Rossi once on dry tyres, I think he couldn't be bothered to be honest, just waiting for Tuesday.

The BBC team for MotoGP were rubbish, they couldn't get anything right, including positions of riders etc, where they actually watching the race or too busy with the patter?

Andy


You got that spot on, they were so irritating and this was my first time watching/hearing them. The Eurosport team of Ryder and Moody along with Spalders are so much better than anything I've heard so far.
Back home in India we would have Gavin Emmet and Ian wheeler, I find them decent but the Eurosport chaps are really good. Am a big fan on spalders and his technical insights.

Edited by carbuff, 12 November 2012 - 08:30.


#2285 Cesc

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:46

Confidence.

But i am just telling the truth,or he has it or he is just MUCH better than the rest.

Last season,there was a race i don't remember which,that he almost overtook everybody in one,two turns.

This is brutal,its not about consistency,raw pace... its just about feeling and grip.

So he is a genius and feel like anyone else or he knows the bike really can do it.

Probably is both,Just my opinion.


In 2010, in Portugal (125cc) he(Marquez) did the same (from last to first). I don´t know if he had a bike advantage (was a Derbi), but he was riding against Aprilia, which was probably not bad.

He has a good bike (I don´t think his bike is better, maybe a better setup than most) but he is definetely the best of the grid with significant difference.

Edited by Cesc, 12 November 2012 - 08:47.


#2286 GSiebert

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:38

Summary of the 2014 rules :

Electronic package : provided by Dorna for everybody
Data logger : provided by Dorna for everybody
Software : free for MSMA constructors, provided by Dorna for the others
Engine max RPM : free for MSMA constructors, limited by Dorna's software for the others
Fuel tank : 20L for MSMA constructors, 24L for the others
Number of engines per season : 5 for MSMA constructors (9 for newcomers), 12 for the others
Weight : 160kg for everybody
Engine modification during the season : none for everybody

Edited by GSiebert, 12 November 2012 - 10:48.


#2287 Rob

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:45

The new rules are interesting. I can't help thinking that maybe the MSMA manufacturers ought to be able to opt-in to the spec software if they want to. Smaller manufacturers shouldn't have to spend themselves into oblivion just because Honda want to.

#2288 Rob

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:50

In 2010, in Portugal (125cc) he(Marquez) did the same (from last to first). I don´t know if he had a bike advantage (was a Derbi), but he was riding against Aprilia, which was probably not bad.

The Derbi was a rebadged Aprilia, although for some reason the Derbis seemed to have slightly more top end. I think it's more likely that the Ajo and Tuenti teams just did a slightly better job with the engine tuning.

#2289 Youichi

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:53

What's with the on again, off again nature of Ant West's career? I'm not Australian but I fail to see why he hasn't ever secured a top ride. He's taken some very slow bikes into the points and if it rains he's always right up there - a sure sign of a rider maximising his equipment.


Ant West had a works KTM 250 ride in 2005, and he lost it by pissing off the team.....

The problem is his attitude not his talent level.



#2290 rhukkas

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:33

Summary of the 2014 rules :

Electronic package : provided by Dorna for everybody
Data logger : provided by Dorna for everybody
Software : free for MSMA constructors, provided by Dorna for the others
Engine max RPM : free for MSMA constructors, limited by Dorna's software for the others
Fuel tank : 20L for MSMA constructors, 24L for the others
Number of engines per season : 5 for MSMA constructors (9 for newcomers), 12 for the others
Weight : 160kg for everybody
Engine modification during the season : none for everybody


arrggghhh two different specs of bike!!! Stupid.

#2291 GSiebert

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 13:04

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Espargaro. The guy led 2 laps, riding a CRT ! Okay he was on wets, but Stoner, Rossi, Dovi ... were on wets as well. And he stayed with them until the pitstops.
My hero of the day with Nakasuga. :smoking:

Edited by GSiebert, 12 November 2012 - 13:11.


#2292 Rob

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 13:25

My hero of the day with Nakasuga. :smoking:


Nakasuga's wife gave birth yesterday too. He probably hasn't stopped grinning yet.

Also, some news for 2013. The Indonesian rider Doni Tata Pradita is returning to ride for Gresini in Moto2.

#2293 GSiebert

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 14:13

Nakasuga's wife gave birth yesterday too. He probably hasn't stopped grinning yet.

Funny that he got that podium with a very steady race in tricky conditions, he has the reputation of a crasher in EWC.

Edited by GSiebert, 12 November 2012 - 14:38.


#2294 kosmic33

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 14:30

Funny that he got that podium in a very steady race in tricky conditions, he has the reputation of a crasher in EWC.

Yeah Julian Ryder said he is a proper stereotypical kamikaze Japanese racer.
I've always been a fan of those!

#2295 GSiebert

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 14:41

Me too!
Makes me wonder what happened to japanese riders in world championships, there are very few of them now.

Edited by GSiebert, 12 November 2012 - 14:41.


#2296 Risil

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 15:03

Makes me wonder what happened to japanese riders in world championships, there are very few of them now.


Manufacturer investment in Japanese domestic series (and the "minor" GP classes) is not what it was. That was a strategic move from Honda and co., and pretty much coincided with the creation of MotoGP in 2002.

You've also got to consider the state of the Japanese economy in 1990 vs 2000.

Not that there are many Australians or North/South Americans in the world championships either. It's a tough world with few genuinely paid rides, and the risk you take trying to get the results and experience to deserve one is much greater when you have to travel to Europe to do it. Red Bull Rookies is doing a little to plug that gap, but the fact that an international scholarship programme for 15-year-olds is all they've got to redress the balance gives you an idea of how far the major "regional" motorcycling series have fallen.

Kenny Roberts, Sr blames Superbike racing's status as the only game in town outside of the GPs. It certainly teaches riders how to ride around a poor chassis (and make an exciting show for the fans in doing so) but this doesn't usually make a rider as technically proficient as a Jorge Lorenzo and Dani Pedrosa. A season of Moto2 is more expensive and exclusive than a year running a minimally-supported 250, so the means of young riders getting hold of purpose-built race bikes is still shrinking.

Edited by Risil, 12 November 2012 - 15:23.


#2297 Jamelon

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 15:55

He's certainly not average compared to Scott Redding.


Is Scott Redding who's above average, not Marquez particularly small. There's always going to be some advantage for below average size riders in motorsport anyway, all sports have some sort of ideal size range.




#2298 chunder27

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 16:20

Amd what chance would have had of getting any decent results on a minimally supported 250, totally pointless comparison! Ask Eugene Laverty or Jay Vincent or numerous others who didnt lease a 5 year old bike from Aprilia for over a million quid! Greed cost them their participationa n d it serves them right

#2299 hotstickyslick

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 16:43

I think Marquez will win races next year, but also he will be too inconsistent with several crashes to keep up with Lorenzo, Pedrosa and perhaps Rossi in the points race. Perhaps in 2014 he can challenge for the title if he really is THAT good.



It's not like his Moto2 form has been unprecedented though. He also dominated the '10 125cc season, and should have won by a more comfortable margin but for two DNFs not of his making. I'd be very surprised if he couldn't carry his form to MotoGP, even if it's the biggest step. I expect him to be winning races but perhaps hitting the deck more often than he is used to.



The reasoning behind my doubts about Marquez is because MotoGP is such a different world, with the electronics, engine power and most crucially the tyres. Look at Ben Spies, he's a good exmaple of someone who's ultimately failed to reinvent himself as a rider and this is why he has lost his seat at Yamaha for the most part. Despite all the success he's had outside of MotoGP, it didn't mean squat this year. Looking at Ben Spies, it has become clear to me that to be successful in MotoGP currently a rider has to forget everything about what made them great in other championships and totally renew themselves in order to understand the bike and the tyres. There is no way in hell that Marquez will be able to ride an RC213V like he did his Moto2 Suter and win races - they're two fundamentally different machines.

I do fear that Marquez may turn out to be another Spies, for his sake I hope I'm wrong.

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#2300 steferrari

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 16:49

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