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2012 - MotoGP, WSB, Moto2, WSP, AMA, BSB Part II


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#2301 bigarthurisgod

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 17:08

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Who is it? :stoned:

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#2302 Risil

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 17:10

Amd what chance would have had of getting any decent results on a minimally supported 250, totally pointless comparison! Ask Eugene Laverty or Jay Vincent or numerous others who didnt lease a 5 year old bike from Aprilia for over a million quid! Greed cost them their participationa n d it serves them right


Based on James Whitham's comments in Eurosport broadcasts, Laverty's experience racing a 250 was very profitable indeed, although not in terms of results. Same goes for Chaz Davies. Aprilia upset the Japanese manufacturers by their insistence on running expensive factory-level support in 250GP, when Honda were interested in either dumping the class or running it as a production-racer class like Moto3 is now. Honda stayed on with less and less support, and Suzuki and Yamaha took their racing efforts elsewhere.

Can't blame them though, the Noale team was being hopelessly outspent in the big class. Can't fault their desire to win. Perhaps you can fault the MSMA's stance in favouring cost control everywhere except where they intend on racing.

250s were not ideal, especially not in the last few years of the class (afaik national-level 250cc racing died out in the late 90s/early 2000s, and with it all those economies of scale that made genuine privateers possible), but I doubt Marquez's team is spending much less than the top 250 entries were. If that's what it takes to be competitive over a whole season in the future, then Grand Prix racing has a problem.

Edited by Risil, 12 November 2012 - 17:14.


#2303 toofast

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 17:51

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Can't wait!

#2304 GSiebert

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 18:03

Gresini has a new title sponsor : Go & Fun. Another energy drink.

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#2305 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 18:16

Those Yamaha's are gorgeous.
Gresini Honda design by a committee of accountants

#2306 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 18:21

Presumably Rossi can't ride with any logos on his bike?

And does the Gresini switch lend support to San Carlo going to Yamaha?

#2307 GSiebert

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 18:39

Gresini Honda design by a committee of accountants

Winter testing livery I'm sure.

#2308 kpchelsea

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 18:55

The reasoning behind my doubts about Marquez is because MotoGP is such a different world, with the electronics, engine power and most crucially the tyres. Look at Ben Spies, he's a good exmaple of someone who's ultimately failed to reinvent himself as a rider and this is why he has lost his seat at Yamaha for the most part. Despite all the success he's had outside of MotoGP, it didn't mean squat this year. Looking at Ben Spies, it has become clear to me that to be successful in MotoGP currently a rider has to forget everything about what made them great in other championships and totally renew themselves in order to understand the bike and the tyres. There is no way in hell that Marquez will be able to ride an RC213V like he did his Moto2 Suter and win races - they're two fundamentally different machines.

I do fear that Marquez may turn out to be another Spies, for his sake I hope I'm wrong.

I'm just wondering when ever did a topline GP driver come from the super bike class, i'm sure it will take Marquez some time to adapt more so than in either 125s or Moto2, it takes everyone time to adapt whether it be Rossi, Stoner, Pedrosa or Lorenzo but he will adapt i'm sure of it.

#2309 Risil

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 19:16

I'm just wondering when ever did a topline GP driver come from the super bike class, i'm sure it will take Marquez some time to adapt more so than in either 125s or Moto2, it takes everyone time to adapt whether it be Rossi, Stoner, Pedrosa or Lorenzo but he will adapt i'm sure of it.


Nicky Hayden. If you're good enough and get the lucky breaks and navigate the inevitable GP politics (which Hayden only just managed), he's proof that you can succeed in Grands Prix without previous experience on race prototypes.

If Suzuki had been a major player (like, Honda/Yamaha level) in MotoGP, you wonder whether Spies's MotoGP career would've looked more like Hayden's. He rode very well for Yamaha in 2010 and 2011, but he was still the outsider who left Suzuki because they couldn't provide him with a good seat outside of America. Course, their careers with Hondamaha ended more or less the same way.

#2310 kpchelsea

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 20:21

Nicky Hayden. If you're good enough and get the lucky breaks and navigate the inevitable GP politics (which Hayden only just managed), he's proof that you can succeed in Grands Prix without previous experience on race prototypes.

If Suzuki had been a major player (like, Honda/Yamaha level) in MotoGP, you wonder whether Spies's MotoGP career would've looked more like Hayden's. He rode very well for Yamaha in 2010 and 2011, but he was still the outsider who left Suzuki because they couldn't provide him with a good seat outside of America. Course, their careers with Hondamaha ended more or less the same way.

Yes Hayden won the top class when Rossi/Yamaha dropped the ball and his teammate Pedrosa was a rookie but Hayden never got classed as an alien just a good pro, all the big stars recently have come from the feeder series like Rossi, Stoner, Pedrosa and Lorenzo, why some think that MotoGP maybe to big a step for Marquez when his CV is every bit as good as these i don't know?

#2311 Risil

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 20:41

They didn't have aliens in 2006. Or in 2007, for that matter, everyone was too busy trying to explain how Casey Stoner had a huge equipment advantage (when in fact he mostly just had huge equipment).

No real reason why Marquez can't succeed like the four you mentioned, but nothing is ever certain. We're still awaiting our first Moto2->MotoGP race winner, there are a few riders who never seemed to get totally comfortable in the heavyweight class, there are already three Marc Marquez-level talents with competitive rides for 2013. Marquez bounced back from a huge accident and career-threatening injury at the end of 2011. That's the biggest worry for anyone coming into MotoGP with a good team: they might have a couple of big accidents and never recover their confidence. Thankfully Marquez has already dealt very well with something like that.

Edited by Risil, 12 November 2012 - 20:57.


#2312 kpchelsea

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 20:53

They didn't have aliens in 2006. Or in 2007, for that matter, everyone was too busy trying to explain how Casey Stoner had a huge equipment advantage (when in fact he mostly just had huge equipment).

No there was just the one that being Rossi

#2313 Nahnever

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 21:06

The bike and tyres in the Moto2 class seem to suit Marquez I think. A MotoGP bike, especially on Bridgestone tyres is a very different beast. I'll be surprised if Marquez wins a race next year.

Funny I remember people saying exactly the same thing about Hamilton in 2006/7. I'll be surprised if he DOESN'T win any races next year.

#2314 Atreiu

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 21:08

Rossi, an alien in 2007? Definitely not.
He was the first of them, but I have never seen, heard or listened to him being called an alien alone.
A quick google search showed it was De Puniet who came up with it... in July 2009.

There is no telling what exactly Marquez will be up to. You just can't expect someone of his talent/results to fiddle around for 5th and lucky podiums his entire career.

#2315 ehagar

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 22:10

Not that there are many Australians or North/South Americans in the world championships either. It's a tough world with few genuinely paid rides, and the risk you take trying to get the results and experience to deserve one is much greater when you have to travel to Europe to do it. Red Bull Rookies is doing a little to plug that gap, but the fact that an international scholarship programme for 15-year-olds is all they've got to redress the balance gives you an idea of how far the major "regional" motorcycling series have fallen.


There is a very good MotoPod interview with Josh Hayes that was just released. One of the subjects was on the state of AMA and the bike racing world in general. Josh talked about there no longer being a pathway to go up the ladder, even for the very talented. There was a time when there were multiple factory efforts (the big 4 were all present, plus good efforts from Erion and others) in AMA, so a promising young rider could stick with a manufacturer and move up. Now, there is a gulf for riders after 'Supersport' (an age limit kids series in AMA), and getting a budget together to be competitive at the next level ('Daytona' class) is really, really hard. Virtually no paid rides exist anymore so many will get left behind.

Hayes remarked that while he was making a decent living, it isn't anything NEAR what the earning potential was in the 90s to early 2000s. He seemed to genuinely fear for the next group of riders in America.

#2316 Rob

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 23:21

A quick google search showed it was De Puniet who came up with it... in July 2009.


Yep, it was de Puniet who coined the phrase.

#2317 rhukkas

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 23:30

Rossi, an alien in 2007? Definitely not.
He was the first of them, but I have never seen, heard or listened to him being called an alien alone.
A quick google search showed it was De Puniet who came up with it... in July 2009.

There is no telling what exactly Marquez will be up to. You just can't expect someone of his talent/results to fiddle around for 5th and lucky podiums his entire career.


alien is a term that's been used a lot before 2009. A lot of computer gamers use the term for mental good online players.

#2318 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 23:36

Yeah apparently Rossi wasn't any good until de Puniet came up with a term people can't stop overusing.

#2319 Risil

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 23:50

Yeah apparently Rossi wasn't any good until de Puniet came up with a term people can't stop overusing.


He was the GOAT, remember? ;) That's a term you don't hear much these days. It's less "Champion vs. Challenger" and more first among equals now. I don't reckon anyone seriously thinks they'll be able to resolve for all time who's a better rider out of Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Rossi and Stoner, but it's very easy to tell that they're better than every other road racer. Back before 2008 or so there were a few more ways you could make your claim for racing immortality.

Edited by Risil, 12 November 2012 - 23:51.


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#2320 malibu

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 00:26

i'd would extremely surprised if marquez were even close to pedrosa's pace next year, simply because since german gp, pedrosa's is not considered as a human :smoking:

Edited by malibu, 13 November 2012 - 00:26.


#2321 kosmic33

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:01

MotoMatters sum the excitement & Marquez expectations well here:
http://motomatters.c...ossi_marqu.html

Superbike Planet via GPOne with the image we've been waiting for!
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#2322 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:30

i'd would extremely surprised if marquez were even close to pedrosa's pace next year, simply because since german gp, pedrosa's is not considered as a human :smoking:

I'm not sold on Pedrosa. Phillip Island showed that Dani isn't good under pressure and is human.
As far as Marquez in GP is concerned, he's a rookie, and will have time to develop.
Next year will be a repeat of 2010 with Team Yamaha dominating most races.

Edited by InSearchOfThe, 13 November 2012 - 01:31.


#2323 Disgrace

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:01

I'm not sold on Pedrosa. Phillip Island showed that Dani isn't good under pressure and is human.
As far as Marquez in GP is concerned, he's a rookie, and will have time to develop.
Next year will be a repeat of 2010 with Team Yamaha dominating most races.


Based on what exactly? Certainly not Honda's better development than Yamaha this year.

#2324 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:22

'Supersport' (an age limit kids series in AMA)


As far as I know that's out. One of our local guys runs it and he's well over 40.

I'm not sold on Pedrosa. Phillip Island showed that Dani isn't good under pressure and is human.


:lol:

Gotta love it, the guy made the same number of mistakes as the guy that won the title and suddenly he's a choker.

Edited by Chubby_Deuce, 13 November 2012 - 02:24.


#2325 Cesc

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:46

Pedrosa has been one (big) step ahead of the rest for the second half of the season and he would have been a very worthy champion this year. His races in Sepang or in Valencia were something new coming from him. I think he deserves a title in MotoGP after quite a great career in MotoGP (22 wins, 71 podiums, 24 poles).

Lorenzo has maximized the fact that Stoner was out for quite a while and no more rivals were around.

Edited by Cesc, 13 November 2012 - 06:49.


#2326 bigarthurisgod

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:55

Superbike Planet via GPOne with the image we've been waiting for!

Yeah, since post #2301......

Oh and less of the "we" please!!  ;)

#2327 Andy35

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:06

I think the Honda is the better bike now than the Yamaha, engine and chassis as a whole. Have Yamaha got a Honda style gearbox yet, the one that acts like a double clutch for very fast shifts?

I'm sure Yamaha riders will be asking for changes to the engine/gearbox in 2013 and Honda riders will still be asking for chassis improvements.

What's the weather like in Valencia at the moment and does anyone have a link to testing times / updates ?

Andy



#2328 GSiebert

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:36

Have Yamaha got a Honda style gearbox yet, the one that acts like a double clutch for very fast shifts?

Nope, and Crutchlow said their old style gearbox was costing them a lot of time around Phillip Island.

Its still dry, but cold, this morning at Valencia, rain expected in the afternoon.

Edited by GSiebert, 13 November 2012 - 08:45.


#2329 GSiebert

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:10

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#2330 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:16

And it's raining :(

#2331 GSiebert

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:16

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#2332 GSiebert

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:21

And its raining a bit ...

#2333 toofast

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:55

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Apparently Rossi is 2012 champion. :lol:

#2334 Bartel

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:58

Any pics of Marc on the Honda yet???

#2335 GSiebert

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:03

There's his bike : Posted Image

But he didn't go out on track afaik.

#2336 Rob

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:05

He's just snacking at the moment.

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#2337 Bartel

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:05

No repsol colours til the new year?

#2338 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:09

No repsol colours til the new year?

As I understand the sponsorships are only for racing season so the teams run unbranded in tests

#2339 Rob

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:17

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Smith goes out. Only it's actually Mr Capirossi getting a cheeky test ride.

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#2340 Rob

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:38

David Emmett @motomatters
"Just stood at track side and watched Rossi lap in the wet. He looked so much more comfortable than he did on the Ducati"

#2341 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:26

@motomatters: Dovizioso rolling around in the 1'51s at the same time Rossi was posting 1'48s. It's going to be a long year.

#2342 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:31

The Estrella Galicia team jackets complete with hastily applied KTM stickers - http://t.co/3tZzWphG

#2343 manmower

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:33

David Emmett @motomatters
"Just stood at track side and watched Rossi lap in the wet. He looked so much more comfortable than he did on the Ducati"

How many times has he written that about Ducatis with new parts. He's bound to be right sometime... or not. :drunk:

#2344 Tarzaan

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:43

2013

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=177279

#2345 GSiebert

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:51

How many times has he written that about Ducatis with new parts. He's bound to be right sometime... or not. :drunk:

True :D

#2346 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 13:05

As I understand the sponsorships are only for racing season so the teams run unbranded in tests


That is a really really strange way to do it, because you do PR for the sponsor on a 12 month cycle. The more likely explanation is when you switch riders they run unbranded because they have contracts until the end of the year. So Rossi in his completely un-logo'd Yamaha. But Marquez has moved from a Repsol Honda to a Repsol Honda so wtf.


#2347 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:46

Based on what exactly? Certainly not Honda's better development than Yamaha this year.

2013 Yamaha Team-2 world champions. HRC-0. Pretty simple really.
It's going to be 2 against 1 unless Marquez adapts quickly to GP.


#2348 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:55

Gotta love it, the guy made the same number of mistakes as the guy that won the title and suddenly he's a choker.

Pedrosa rode well at times but, didn't have what it took to push Lorenzo till the end. With his experience he should have been able to do more imo.Call it what you want. I think Jorge is atleast 1 step above Dani. Who knows maybe this season will help Dani in the future on how to finish strong.Personaly I hope Marc pushes him next year.

#2349 hotstickyslick

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:29

Pedrosa rode well at times but, didn't have what it took to push Lorenzo till the end. With his experience he should have been able to do more imo.Call it what you want. I think Jorge is atleast 1 step above Dani. Who knows maybe this season will help Dani in the future on how to finish strong.Personaly I hope Marc pushes him next year.

Pedrosa finished a mere 18 points behind Lorenzo, the latter being on the most consistent machine by far.

I don't see how people can rate Lorenzo higher than Pedrosa when you factor in bike differences.

#2350 Risil

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:37

Something to do with finishing first or second in every race he finished this year. Rainey-eque.

Edited by Risil, 13 November 2012 - 16:37.