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1920s & 1930s European Championship points


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#1 quintin cloud

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Posted 08 March 2001 - 08:16

Hi all

In the 1935 to 1939 points system is pretty much while documented in
Liefs page and applied in my page; the question I have is from 1921 to
1934 what was points system used for EU championships for drivers. How was the 1925 to 1927 constructors' championship scored to award Alfa Romeo and other the title of EU constructor's champion? The most noted races for the driver's championship are highlighted in Hans page with a list of races?


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#2 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 08 March 2001 - 09:05

Originally posted by quintin cloud
...the title of EU constructor's champion...

There was only a World Championship for constructors.
1.) Points for the World Championship 1925-1930
1 = for 1st place
2 = for 2nd place
3 = for 3rd place
4 = all other competitors
5 = for non-finishers
6 = for non-starters

2.) There was no European Championship for drivers during the 20's.

#3 David McKinney

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Posted 08 March 2001 - 09:18

I am sure Hans knows more about this than I do, Quintin, but I’m not clear whether the World Championship was actually awarded after 1927.
In 1925 points were earned on the Indianapolis 500 and the European (Spa), French and Italian GPs. Alfa Romeo won with 13 points from Duesenberg (17) and Bugatti (19).
Qualifying rounds in 1926 were the Indianapolis 500 and the GPs of Europe (San Sebastian), Britain and Italy: Bugatti (11 points) won from Delage (23).
The French, Spanish, British and Italian GPs counted in 1927, together with Indianapolis, and Delage (10 points) were champions over Miller (23) and Duesenberg and Bugatti (24 each).

I’m not so sure about the European Drivers’ Championship. The AIACR announced this for 1931, which may have been its first year. Finishing points were again 1-2-3-4 for the first four places, but you also got four points if you completed three-quarters of the race distance, 5 for half and six if you made it one-quarter of the way. There were also seven points for starters who didn’t get that far, and eight for non-starters (presumably after qualifying).
The Italian and French GPs were certainly qualifying rounds, but there is some doubt about whether the Belgian was on the list as well. If it was, Borzacchini was champion with six points from Nuvolari (7) and Campari and Minoia (9 each). Without Spa, the score would have been Campari 3, Borzacchini 4, Nuvolari 5 and Minoia 6.
Perhaps someone else can clarify this, and also throw light on the next three years’ championships.



#4 quintin cloud

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Posted 08 March 2001 - 12:18

I'm guess you say Hans that only constructors' championship happened in the 20's , one question , how did they score points for example if alfa Romeo car came 1st , 2nd , 4th and 1 DNF ? Did my only give points to the 1st place Alfa , and drop the points for 2nd , 4th and the DNF ? Or did they include all the points scored for 1st , 2nd , 4th and 1 DNF ?

Another point the drivers championship from 1931 to 1934 is the same as the 1935 - 1939 rules ?

1 = for 1st place
2 = for 2nd place
3 = for 3rd place
4 = all other competitors
5 = for non-finishers
6 = for non-starters



#5 Boniver

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Posted 08 March 2001 - 17:08



1931 Eur. Kamp - It - Fr - Bel - (Sp)
race Sp cancel

1 p for 1°
2 p for 2°
3 p for 3°
4 p for 4° and all who race 2/3 of the race
5 p for all who race 1/2
6 p for all who race 1/3
7 p for all who race 1/4
8 p for all who not start in the race

BUT :
No ponts for the co piloot !!!!!
the co piloot have only ponts if he race tree race with the same driver


MINOIA was CHAMPION
2 + 5 + 3 - 10p
2° in It with Bozacchini
1/2 race in Fr
3 p in Bel

Nuvolari
8 p in It he won but was co piloot from Campari
4 p in Fr
2 p in Bel

queer but true

----------================

1925 Indy - Bel - Fr - It - San Sebastian(1)
(1) not sure
1926 Indy - Fr - Eur - Sp - GB - It

1927 Indy - Fr - Sp - It - GB

the teams most start in two races AND in the GP of It

---------------==============

1925 title of "Campionato del Mondo" was for GASTONE BRILLI-PERI

and was give by the Italian Automobiel Club

The only basis was that I had won the Grand Prix of Italy



#6 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 08 March 2001 - 17:15

David,
here is an extract from my list of Grand Prix Winners 1895-1949, which is atached to Leif's home page at http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/ The golden era of grand prix racing.

World Championships
were held as early as the Roaring Twenties, using a simple point scoring system. Only the first three of six championships for manufacturers actually took place. Alfa Romeo won in 1925, Bugatti the following year and Delage in 1927. During the succeeding three years the World Championship was always cancelled at year's end. To qualify for the 1928 championship, the rules required contestants to participate in at least two of the seven planned races. Since only one event was held to the formula, the championship was null and void. The A.I.A.C.R. cancelled the 1929 World Championship in October that year after an European Grand Prix had not taken place and holding that event was obligatory to authorize the championship. From the seven Grandes Épreuves planned for 1930, only one was held to the formula. The A.I.A.C.R. commission decided at year's end not to award the title. Some overenthusiatic statements in contemporary publications proclaimed Robert Benoist as the 1927 World Champion and Louis Chiron as the 1928 and 1930 European Champion. This, of course, is total nonsense since the World Championships were for makes, not for drivers.

European Championships
In 1931, the A.I.A.C.R. finally introduced a European Championship for drivers. Without winning a single event, Ferdinando Minoia on Alfa Romeo became European Champion, narrowly beating his teammate Campari, ending his driving career, which had started in 1904. The unusual 1932 European Championship was for manufacturers and single drivers, both competing with each other for points. Only the best placed car of a factory team counted, regardless of who was driving. Alfa Romeo won, with Tazio Nuvolari second as the European Champion of the drivers, followed by Borzacchini, Caracciola, Dreyfus and Officine Maserati in sixth place.


Quintin,
You are right. In the World Championship only the best placed car of a factory entry was eligible to score points.

I tried to keep my guidelines within the format of an explanation rather than a comprehensive story and maybe I should write a more detailed account of the 20's world Championships one day when there is a demand for it.



#7 Don Capps

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Posted 08 March 2001 - 18:18

I tried to keep my guidelines within the format of an explanation rather than a comprehensive story and maybe I should write a more detailed account of the 20's world Championships one day when there is a demand for it.


Hans, we are 'demanding' it!

Seriously, this is one of those areas that really should be gone into in detail. While I might know a bit more than the 'average' bear on some of these issues, there is always that nagging feeling that there is more that you don't know....

#8 Felix Muelas

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Posted 08 March 2001 - 21:59

Originally posted by Don Capps

Hans, we are 'demanding' it!

Seriously, this is one of those areas that really should be gone into in detail. While I might know a bit more than the 'average' bear on some of these issues, there is always that nagging feeling that there is more that you don't know....


Pieces slowly coming together... :)

I think I´ve read elsewhere that the Black Site (what a horrible nickname IMHO) could start with a first glimpse up to 1925, Hans is starting to get tempted, Don is demanding it (OMG! :lol: ) and I know one of Leif´s dreams would be to create a new site on the twenties...

What´s next?;)

Un abrazo

Felix


#9 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 09 March 2001 - 00:04

Originally posted by Boniver
...No ponts for the co piloot !!!!!
the co piloot have only ponts if he race tree race with the same driver...

Boniver,
Please give us your source (in detail, please) for this rule. If I understand you correctly it states that the co-driver had to drive with the same driver in all three races to get points.

#10 Boniver

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Posted 09 March 2001 - 06:47

Hans,


"If I understand you correctly it states that the co-driver had to drive with the same driver in all three races to get points"

Yes
But the info in only for 1931
-------------

source

programma van de (Program of the)
"III De Grote Prijs van België" (III GP of Belgium)
12 juli 1931

"Het Europees Kampioeenschap" (The European Championships)
reglement : (regulations)

Koninklijke Automobielklub van Belgie - Brussel
(Royal Automobile club of Belgium - Brussel/Belgium)




#11 quintin cloud

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Posted 09 March 2001 - 08:56

Hans that would be great if you could help with 1925 to 1927 results , but that is some time away , I starting to get as much infomation on the EU championships as possible , I'll get in contact with you , when the time comes, once again thanks to all for this extra info. :):up:



#12 fines

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Posted 09 March 2001 - 14:13

Originally posted by Boniver
the co piloot have only ponts if he race tree race with the same driver

Hans, that looks like a good explanation for the differences in our opinions! Yes, the pieces are definitely coming together... :) :) :)

Thanks Rudiger for this great info!!! :) :) :stoned: :)

#13 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 09:56

Originally posted by fines
Hans, that looks like a good explanation for the differences in our opinions...

What differences? :confused:

#14 fines

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 15:29

Well, you always had Divo/Bouriat and Varzi/Chiron as team scorers, while I believed only one driver per team was allowed to score, hence Borzacchini's absence from the list. If the second driver was allowed to score only if he raced in all events with the same co-driver, it all makes perfect sense!

#15 quintin cloud

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Posted 28 September 2001 - 06:40

I am busy doing the 1927 EU Constructors Championship and something looks wrong with my table :confused:

David McKinney wrote


I am sure Hans knows more about this than I do, Quintin, but I’m not clear whether the World Championship was actually
awarded after 1927.
In 1925 points were earned on the Indianapolis 500 and the European (Spa), French and Italian GPs. Alfa Romeo won
with 13 points from Duesenberg (17) and Bugatti (19).
Qualifying rounds in 1926 were the Indianapolis 500 and the GPs of Europe (San Sebastian), Britain and Italy: Bugatti (11
points) won from Delage (23).
The French, Spanish, British and Italian GPs counted in 1927, together with Indianapolis, and Delage (10 points) were
champions over Miller (23) and Duesenberg and Bugatti (24 each).


Now I get the 10 points for Delage, 23 points for Miller and 24 points for Duesenburg. But I get 22 points for Bugatti not 24 points.

How I get to the 22 points is as follows:

6 points for the Indy 500, did not attend
6 points for the French GP, did not attend / did not start
2 points for GP of Spain, 2nd place for Caberto Conelli in 39A
6 points for the Italian GP, did not attend
2 points for the British GP, 4th place for Louis Chiron in 39A

Total 22 points

Now is there error in this picture or am I right

:confused:

#16 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 30 September 2001 - 02:48

Originally posted by quintin cloud
.....2 points for the British GP, 4th place for Louis Chiron in 39A.....

Four points for the British GP, not two.

#17 quintin cloud

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Posted 01 October 2001 - 07:07

Hi Hans

thanks answer :up: , but out of interest how is it possible ?

1 2 Robert Benoist Delage 155B 3:49:14.6
2 3 Edmond Bourlier Delage 155B 3:49:21.6
3 4 Albert Divo Delage 155B 3:52:20.0
4 12 Louis Chiron Bugatti 39A 4:17.50.0
5 11 Emilio Materassi Bugatti 39A 118
Not classified:
6 10 Caberto Conelli Bugatti 39A 106

Is it because Chiron finished fourth and is only intitled to
four points for the Bugatti :confused: or is there some there reason :confused:

#18 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 01 October 2001 - 10:07

Quintin,
You surprise me! I had sent you all the rules so you can work out the points scored since you have the results already. The rest is a piece of cake. Try a different approach in figuring out the scoring points, look at the rules again and then you know why Bugatti received four points. You have to convince yourself, it is not I to convince you in this case. It is you who has to understand what is happening and if you did the other two years then 1927 should give you no problem either. ;)

I see that you carry on your site “World Driver’s Championship Unofficial,” for each year up to 1950. You don't seem to be aware of the fact that such kind of language can be quite misleading to the unknown person who is trying to find out about the early races. If you try to find the most successful driver each year and declare a World Driver’s Championship, even an unofficial one, it is not the way you want to go about, since it can be misleading and confusing to the unknowing person. It would be more appropriate to call it
“My Personal Driver’s Scoring List”
“My Most Successful Driver of the Year Award”
“My Personal Best Driver of the Year”
“My Personal Best Scoring Driver”
“My Personal Driver Scoring System”
or something similar, which would give a better explanation about what you want to show and give your list more credibility at the same time.

#19 quintin cloud

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Posted 01 October 2001 - 10:19

Oops :blush: I overlooked small note in your review of 1925 :blush: Thanks for reminding me :up: