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What happen to Pirelli Tyres?


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#1 fololo

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 13:59

Did Pirrelli hardered them???ß


Why they last now stupid 40 laps? Now F1 is boring again.....




I hate that Thread: DRS and Pirelli Tyres a disaster for F1


DRS AND TYRES WERE THE BEST IDEA IN THE WORLD FOR F1






PIRELLI BRING THE OLD Tyres back...

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#2 Sakae

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 15:59

If I may, I would rather find replacement for Mr. Hembery. Someone who is stable, knowledgeable, and understands essence of racing at least at the level of an average internet fan.

Edited by Sakae, 29 July 2012 - 15:59.


#3 Jon83

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 16:01

One week ago Button's tyres went off towards the end.

I think you are getting a bit carried away. Today was just a poor race, period, IMO.

#4 Dalton007

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 16:17

Way too conservative. Should have brought the supersoft and soft.

#5 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 17:50

Does this really need yet another Pirelli thread?

#6 CaptnMark

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 17:51

Way too conservative. Should have brought the supersoft and soft.


Exactly. Hungaroring + sunny weather, softer tyres should be going off the cliff after 5-10 laps.

#7 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 17:54

If I may, I would rather find replacement for Mr. Hembery. Someone who is stable, knowledgeable, and understands essence of racing at least at the level of an average internet fan.


He's the Pirelli Motorsport Director. I can't find his CV online, but I'm quite sure he knows more about tyres and racing than you do (edit: or me). EDIT: Here it is:

he spent 20 years in the tyre industry, working in research and development before moving onto a commercial role. He joined Pirelli in 1992 and has been in charge of motorsport for the last 11 years. He masterminded Pirelli’s contract to supply control tyres to the World Rally Championship from 2008 onwards, and was then behind the Italian firm’s move to Formula 1 in 2011. Hembery’s role on-event is to oversee all aspects of Pirelli’s operations in Formula 1 and represent the company as it consolidates its Formula 1 programme into the future.


EDIT 2: And on topic of the thread, last year it was the same, teams started to understand the tyres mid season. Funnily enough this caused some teams to request more marginal tyres for 2012, ruining Sakae's year ;) and here we are now

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 29 July 2012 - 18:05.


#8 muramasa

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 18:09

DRS AND TYRES WERE THE BEST IDEA IN THE WORLD FOR F1

best would be to ditch this 30 years old f1 car concept and bring completely new car doesnt require gimmicks like DRS and artificially degrading tyres.

sad thing is majority f1 fans are short sighted and able to only look at peripherals such as tyres and wings, instead of fundamental which is the car formula.


#9 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 18:23

best would be to ditch this 30 years old f1 car concept and bring completely new car doesnt require gimmicks like DRS and artificially degrading tyres.

sad thing is majority f1 fans are short sighted and able to only look at peripherals such as tyres and wings, instead of fundamental which is the car formula.


Has little to do with fans' eyes, the teams did not want the expenses of a new aero formula

#10 DrProzac

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 19:12

The tires were OK:rolleyes:

best would be to ditch this 30 years old f1 car concept and bring completely new car doesnt require gimmicks like DRS and artificially degrading tyres.

sad thing is majority f1 fans are short sighted and able to only look at peripherals such as tyres and wings, instead of fundamental which is the car formula.

Well said.
There was hope for a new technical regulations formula, but they've decided to make DRS, which was meant to be only a short-time solution, permanent panacea for F1's problems. The proposed formula involved a lot more ground effects and less wings and it had a real chance to address the issue with dirty air hindering close racing.
Of course ground effect are nothing new, and proper venturi tunnels were introduced and banned more or less 30 years ago. But it will be close to impossible to come up with something totally new which haven't been present in the 100+ years of motorsport history (got any ideas?)

#11 Sakae

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 19:38

He's the Pirelli Motorsport Director. I can't find his CV online, but I'm quite sure he knows more about tyres and racing than you do (edit: or me). EDIT: Here it is:


EDIT 2: And on topic of the thread, last year it was the same, teams started to understand the tyres mid season. Funnily enough this caused some teams to request more marginal tyres for 2012, ruining Sakae's year ;) and here we are now

Being a salesman, or tolerating smell of rubber whole day in your office doesn't implies, that you will understand racing, or mindset of a racer, because if you do, you will never bring tires like that to the racetrack. Pirelli product under his watch has placed limitations on racing that is really hard to take. Some teams, in mid season where we are now, are still struggling to be just consistent from race to race, nevermind at the limit of car's and driver's potential. I am doubtful that's good, and I am hoping Pirelli will be given either new specs, or shown the door.

(BTW I am a fan who is only 38 years with F1 as his past time).

#12 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 19:40

Being a salesman, or tolerating smell of rubber whole day in your office doesn't implies, that you will understand racing, or mindset of a racer, because if you do, you will never bring tires like that to the racetrack. Pirelli product under his watch has placed limitations on racing that is really hard to take. Some teams, in mid season where we are now, are still struggling to be just consistent from race to race, nevermind at the limit of car's and driver's potential. I am doubtful that's good, and I am hoping Pirelli will be given either new specs, or shown the door.

(BTW I am a fan who is only 38 years with F1 as his past time).


Can you read? He moved into commercial work after an engineering role, and headed Pirelli's motorsport arm for 11 years. Sure, he knows shit.

#13 jee

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 19:57

Pirelli tires seem only to suffer from fast turns and there are no at Hungaroring, only slow and medium speed corners.

#14 Sakae

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 19:59

It's really not of my business who has what on his CV, but fact remains, that I see tires that I do not like, and somebody should take credit for it.





______________

I am hoping that you will not come back with the argument that Pirelli delivered exactly what was requested, unless you have special access to commercial papers, inital technical spec., and pre-season validation data. Until then it's a spirit of racing as defined by Pirelli, that resides in them, and somebody is driving it.

#15 fisssssi

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 20:01

I was hoping for a Canada-esque last 5 laps disintegration of the Pirelli tyres in Hungary, but it didn't happen this time :(

#16 fololo

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 20:03

I was hoping for a Canada-esque last 5 laps disintegration of the Pirelli tyres in Hungary, but it didn't happen this time :(

what will happen to Spa?

Another 100 Laps Tyres? First Races were so entertaining...

#17 Wander

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 20:15

I think Spa is heavier on tyres than Hungaroring.

#18 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 20:16

It's really not of my business who has what on his CV, but fact remains, that I see tires that I do not like, and somebody should take credit for it.


You know what the answer is from the 100000 other Pirelli threads. It's just foolish to call people stupid who obviously were very successful in their career, and disrespectful to purposefully ignore their background even after it was shown to you. But whatever, it's your loss

I am hoping that you will not come back with the argument that Pirelli delivered exactly what was requested, unless you have special access to commercial papers, inital technical spec., and pre-season validation data. Until then it's a spirit of racing as defined by Pirelli, that resides in them, and somebody is driving it.


You are requiring a level of proof which you know is impossible to obtain and out of proportion to anything else you would require on a BB, including from yourself. This is childish behavior, IMHO.
Apart from like 2 people on this BB other than you, everybody else accepts that FIA & FOTA requested tyres with approximately this behavior. And if that is so outlandish, I am sure you yourself can demonstrate that FIA are unhappy with Pirelli?

#19 fololo

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 20:31

I think Spa is heavier on tyres than Hungaroring.

Really? I hear it will be the same..

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#20 Mandzipop

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 20:32

Really? I hear it will be the same..


It'll be inters and full wets more than likely at Spa.  ;)

#21 Wander

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 20:40

It'll be inters and full wets more than likely at Spa. ;)


Nah, I have it on good authority that it'¨ll be a dry weekend.

#22 Mandzipop

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 20:49

Nah, I have it on good authority that it'¨ll be a dry weekend.


I'm bookmarking this post and if I get wet I'll blame you. :p  ;)

In all seriousness though I think the teams are getting to grips (no pun intended) with the tyres.

#23 BigCHrome

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 21:03

I think they definitely did something to make them more durable.



#24 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 21:20

I think they definitely did something to make them more durable.


Fact is that Pirelli tried twice to test a new hard compound on Fridays, amid many Pirelli press releases that this is largely for next year as Pirelli is not hot on changing the compound during the year, for fear of allegations of favoritism. These two scheduled tests did not happen due to rain and Pirelli announced that the next test will not be before autumn.

And you seriously believe that they then change the compounds without any testing, without an announcement, and apparently without telling anyone? Can I have what you are smoking?


#25 engel

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 21:25

Teams don't understand the tyres = Pirellis are crap, they don't last 3 laps
Teams start figuring out the tyres = Pirallis are crap, they ninja modified the tyres to last the whole race



#26 Henrik B

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 21:28

I think they definitely did something to make them more durable.


No, the teams -especially the front teams - are simply better now. Watch gp2 - less budget and less free practice on the weekends, they still get tyres failing in spectacular fashion.

And if you were watching with live timing, you saw some drivers lap times plunging quite dramatically in the last five laps. But this is Hungary.

#27 BigCHrome

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 21:35

Fact is that Pirelli tried twice to test a new hard compound on Fridays, amid many Pirelli press releases that this is largely for next year as Pirelli is not hot on changing the compound during the year, for fear of allegations of favoritism. These two scheduled tests did not happen due to rain and Pirelli announced that the next test will not be before autumn.

And you seriously believe that they then change the compounds without any testing, without an announcement, and apparently without telling anyone? Can I have what you are smoking?


How else do you explain that in the spring everyone was barely able to improve their times on old tires as the race went on and now Lotus can set purples with 30 lap old tires?

#28 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 21:40

Teams don't understand the tyres = Pirellis are crap, they don't last 3 laps
Teams start figuring out the tyres = Pirallis are crap, they ninja modified the tyres to last the whole race


:rotfl: This. It was the exact same thing last year, by the second half of the season teams didn't have problems with the tyres, which is why Pirelli made them more marginal on request, sending Sakae & friends into hysteric fits ;)

#29 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 21:41

How else do you explain that in the spring everyone was barely able to improve their times on old tires as the race went on and now Lotus can set purples with 30 lap old tires?


Teams figured it out *exactly* the same as last year. Plus just because your team sucked with their tyre management does not mean everyone did as much. Renault Lotus had much less problems than other teams more ore less right from the start of the season.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 29 July 2012 - 21:59.


#30 OoxLox

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 21:46

Sigh... regarding the OP, this was predicted when everyone was having seizures about the "random tyres" at the start of the season. Just like last year the teams have gradually got better and better at working with these boots, and just like last year people are ignoring that and instead wondering if Pirelli made them more durable to avoid bad press or whatever. I remember even Brundle wondering about that at one point in his commentary last year. The tyres are the same, but the teams know a lot more about them now and the drivers have been learning about them too. Hamilton said in an interview today that he's learned a lot about making the 2012 rubber last longer, especially at Barcelona, and that helped him go 29 laps on his second set of primes. He even mentioned using induced understeer later in the race when the car balance moved towards oversteer. These people know what they're doing, and even Pirelli's 2012 tyre with its wafer-thin operating window etc wasn't going to fool them forever.

#31 BigCHrome

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 22:10

Teams figured it out *exactly* the same as last year. Plus just because your team sucked with their tyre management does not mean everyone did as much. Renault Lotus had much less problems than other teams more ore less right from the start of the season.


It's not about McLaren. Red Bull didn't have great deg this week either. Plus last year teams were always saving tires, not running in qualifying and still had to pit 3-4 times at most tracks.

Also Lotus probably has problems with the tires in qualifying.

#32 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 22:19

It's not about McLaren. Red Bull didn't have great deg this week either. Plus last year teams were always saving tires, not running in qualifying and still had to pit 3-4 times at most tracks.

Also Lotus probably has problems with the tires in qualifying.


Not in the second half of the season. Pirelli had targeted 3 pit stops per race for 2011. In the early races there were some that required 4, and people were a bit freaked out. But that vanished rather quickly and by autumn 2 stops were more normal than 3.

Edit: The very fact that Red Bull did not have great deg this weak should speak as an argument *against* Pirelli having made the tyres more durable.

Edit 2: Red Bull however seemed do have rather normal deg. Vettel: "The tyres were not too bad at the end, but we thought that we should try something, the tyres on the cars in front could have fallen off, but it didn't happen". Seems rather business as usual. And Webber is said to have had a differential issue that lead to increased wheel spin and deg on the unloaded tyres.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 29 July 2012 - 22:22.


#33 Coops3

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 22:19

Teams don't understand the tyres = Pirellis are crap, they don't last 3 laps
Teams start figuring out the tyres = Pirallis are crap, they ninja modified the tyres to last the whole race


It's not the same group of people complaining in each case though is it. You can't please everyone.

Edited by Coops3, 29 July 2012 - 22:19.


#34 packapoo

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 22:35

Directly addressing the thread title here...............They Came, They Sucked. Finis.

#35 Skinnyguy

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 22:40

Nothing happened, teams just are better using them -except Mercedes- :smoking:

#36 Bleu

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:01

Bridgestone usually brought supersofts to Hungary didn't they? Pirelli chose not to do that.

#37 MightyMc

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:46

I think the teams are getting on top of them more than they were and the deg is not what it was.

I still absolutely hate the fact you can't follow the car ahead for longer than 3 laps before you screw your tyres, encourages overtaking in the pits and not on the track :down:

#38 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:02

Bridgestone usually brought supersofts to Hungary didn't they? Pirelli chose not to do that.

Yeah but Bridgestone supersofts were not made of butter

#39 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:03

I still absolutely hate the fact you can't follow the car ahead for longer than 3 laps before you screw your tyres, encourages overtaking in the pits and not on the track :down:

their narrow operating window trick does it

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#40 wingwalker

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:21

I still absolutely hate the fact you can't follow the car ahead for longer than 3 laps before you screw your tyres




Everyone hates that, but It's been like that for years, it's not the Pirellis.


#41 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:48

Everyone hates that, but It's been like that for years, it's not the Pirellis.

nope, in the past you could follow it (without passing)...now you can't because the jelly tyres will be toast

#42 rdebourbon

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:50

The teams are obviously getting on top of the tyre issues they all had at the start of the season.. This is allowing them to extract more consistent behaviour from the tyres, as well as model & predict their lifespan to within 2 laps.. All sounds good..

My issues with the Pirelli's are twofold:
1. The amount of debris that builds up off line.
2. The fact that the teams all run many seconds slower than their ultimate pace as its the only way to keep the tyres consistent.. Push too hard for even a couple of laps and you pay dearly..

Point 2 - is counter to the "allowing different strategy permutation" promises we keep getting.. All the teams want predictable behavior as they can model it to the nth degree and base simulations etc all on the models.. This is all fine, but where it falls on its head, is that the ultimate strategy promise was for some teams to choose the softer tyre and attack the race in faster but shorter stints but having to stop more times, while others teams would opt to measure their performance on the harder tyre doing less stops - ultimately meaning a n exciting race with lots of people out of position until the final laps.. Because all the teams are having to measure their performance on all the tyre types and can't push lap after lap on the softer supposedly "shorter lifespan" tyre - everyone converges on the same/very similar strategy doing roughly the same times (x secs slower than we know they're capable of) and we're no better off as fans..

*rant over*

#43 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 15:16

^rdebourbon, my perception may be skewed but I don't see that. What I see is more variation than with Bridgestones, in Hungary we had 2 stops, 3 stops, people doing 2 options stints, others doing 2 prime stints. Keeping in mind that expecting any more variation seems unreasonable (I don't think you will ever have one team doing a 4-stopper and another on a 0-stopper, regardless of tyres), this is plenty variation for me.

I'm upholding my POV that the "use both compounds" rule was always stupid and needs to go, particularly because nowadays it actually hinders diversity.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 30 July 2012 - 15:17.


#44 Youichi

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 16:05

Nothing happened, teams just are better using them -except Mercedes- :smoking:


Actually something did happen, Pirelli chickened out of using the supersofts.

This year it was Softs and Mediums http://www.pirelli.c.....ress Release)

Last year it was Supersofts and Softs. http://www.formula1....11/6/12236.html

#45 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 16:40

Actually something did happen, Pirelli chickened out of using the supersofts.

This year it was Softs and Mediums http://www.pirelli.c.....ress Release)

Last year it was Supersofts and Softs. http://www.formula1....11/6/12236.html


But this year's Mediums are more or less last year's Softs. This year's Softs are softer than last year's. Only the Supersoft stayed the same.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 30 July 2012 - 16:57.


#46 Menace

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 16:55

Teams don't understand the tyres = Pirellis are crap, they don't last 3 laps
Teams start figuring out the tyres = Pirallis are crap, they ninja modified the tyres to last the whole race


Yeah, that is pretty much it, and the whining goes on and on. :up:

#47 Disgrace

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 16:57

Nothing happened, teams just are better using them -except Mercedes- :smoking:


I agree, most of the race is spent at 75%.

#48 MightyMc

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 17:28

Everyone hates that, but It's been like that for years, it's not the Pirellis.

Been like that on the Bridgestones?, I don't think so, I wish we had the Bridgestones back, drivers to chase down each other and attack then.

#49 engel

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 17:52

Been like that on the Bridgestones?, I don't think so, I wish we had the Bridgestones back, drivers to chase down each other and attack then.


So you weren't watching F1 during the Brickenstone era. Cause that was the daily complaint, F1 cars couldn't follow each other on track [and that led to the creation of the OWG, the snowplow noses and thin/high rear wings which yielded a big fat zero] and everybody was overtaking during pitstops. Hungary 2012 was pretty much the norm in every race on the calendar.

#50 Sakae

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 06:06

The teams are obviously getting on top of the tyre issues they all had at the start of the season.. This is allowing them to extract more consistent behaviour from the tyres, as well as model & predict their lifespan to within 2 laps.. All sounds good..

My issues with the Pirelli's are twofold:
1. The amount of debris that builds up off line.
2. The fact that the teams all run many seconds slower than their ultimate pace as its the only way to keep the tyres consistent.. Push too hard for even a couple of laps and you pay dearly..

Point 2 - is counter to the "allowing different strategy permutation" promises we keep getting.. All the teams want predictable behavior as they can model it to the nth degree and base simulations etc all on the models.. This is all fine, but where it falls on its head, is that the ultimate strategy promise was for some teams to choose the softer tyre and attack the race in faster but shorter stints but having to stop more times, while others teams would opt to measure their performance on the harder tyre doing less stops - ultimately meaning a n exciting race with lots of people out of position until the final laps.. Because all the teams are having to measure their performance on all the tyre types and can't push lap after lap on the softer supposedly "shorter lifespan" tyre - everyone converges on the same/very similar strategy doing roughly the same times (x secs slower than we know they're capable of) and we're no better off as fans..

*rant over*

Tires technologically not fulfilling driver's/cars potential is one complain repeated in many threads for some time now, but even if you swallow hard and get over it, I see teams continue to struggle for consistency in car setup from race to race. It all has earmarks of random process, and when you think that things are figured out, next race your setup is not working, and someone else has good time. This season probably cannot be compared to anything in past I know (or remember) during my affinity with F1 auto racing. Well good thing is, someone will hit the jackpot in November.