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Double DRS compared to normal DRS


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#1 jeze

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 17:37

How much extra worth would you estimate the DDRS can give during a qualifying lap? I'd be stunned if it was anymore than 0.5 seconds around Spa myself... That said it could easily be the difference between P1 and getting knocked out in Q2 if that's the case...

But... why on earth have the top three dogs not launched their system yet if it really is worth that much? Could it be just a tenth or two per lap compared to the regular version of the DRS system?

I am puzzled... :confused:

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#2 Puhoon

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 18:17

Enough to put the Lotuses on the front row in Spa and Monza. By a mile.

#3 beute

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 18:29

How much extra worth would you estimate the DDRS can give during a qualifying lap? I'd be stunned if it was anymore than 0.5 seconds around Spa myself... That said it could easily be the difference between P1 and getting knocked out in Q2 if that's the case...

But... why on earth have the top three dogs not launched their system yet if it really is worth that much? Could it be just a tenth or two per lap compared to the regular version of the DRS system?

I am puzzled... :confused:

I think the mercedes system isnt all that great.

The other teams looked at mercedes and what they were gaining through stalling the front wing and thought, screw it, it's not worth it.

It seems only lotus realized that you could use the DRS activation for more efficient stuff than just stalling the front wing a little bit.
And if it works out, all other teams will be forced to catch up.

Edited by beute, 02 August 2012 - 18:30.


#4 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 18:32

Mercedes' system has been useless in the races so far.

#5 ViMaMo

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 03:03

Merc's system is useless because of something else. Lets see what Lotus can do.

#6 grunge

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 03:47

Practice results from the last GP showed KR's lotus gained 12 to 15 km/hr running on the main straight with the DDRS wing as compared with the old simple DRS..That is a very significant advantage both for quali pace and then aiding in overtaking during races

What could be a possibility though is that KR didnt use DRS at all in that second run with the old system...if thats the case,then the results are skewed

Edited by grunge, 03 August 2012 - 03:48.


#7 lbennie

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 03:50

if lotus nail it, kimi might just be a chance this year i think.......



#8 2ms

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 05:56

Does anyone have pictures and other information on the Lotus DDRS?

#9 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 06:20

What is the difference of the Lotus' system compared to Mercedes'? Lotus' one is said to give a gain even in the race, but how can they reach it?

#10 Menace

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 06:51

What is the difference of the Lotus' system compared to Mercedes'? Lotus' one is said to give a gain even in the race, but how can they reach it?


I believe I read the speculation is the air is channeled cleverly so that when the DRS is not used, it provides more downforce with minimal drag increase.

#11 Trust

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:02

Practice results from the last GP showed KR's lotus gained 12 to 15 km/hr running on the main straight with the DDRS wing as compared with the old simple DRS..That is a very significant advantage both for quali pace and then aiding in overtaking during races

What could be a possibility though is that KR didnt use DRS at all in that second run with the old system...if thats the case,then the results are skewed

DDRS doesn't gain this much, sorry. False information.

#12 MadYarpen

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:16

DDRS doesn't gain this much, sorry. False information.

I think there is no true information, since no one really knows how it works and what is it aimed at, whether it is top speed boost, or downforce boost, whether it works with DRS closed, open, both but in different ways, or is actually not connected to DRS at all. Even F1 Technical guys are lost here :drunk:

Also a thought - what if Lotus agreed to ban DDRS for 2013, said they won't be able to use it next year, while in fact this device is not banned, but only they know that? :smoking:

#13 HPT

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:25

What is the difference of the Lotus' system compared to Mercedes'? Lotus' one is said to give a gain even in the race, but how can they reach it?


This is what Jonathan Noble thinks it does in the Autosport.com subscription article:

"Thanks to some clever channelling of air through the engine cover and then up on to the rear wing, the idea is that when the Lotus DRS is closed it stalls the rear wing at high speed – providing an extra speed boost. It means that rather than the device doing what the Mercedes double DRS system does in providing that extra bit of speed just for qualifying, the Lotus version will work best in the race."

Could be a deadly weapon if true.

#14 Jovanotti

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:41

"Thanks to some clever channelling of air through the engine cover and then up on to the rear wing, the idea is that when the Lotus DRS is closed it stalls the rear wing at high speed – providing an extra speed boost."

What about high speed corners with closed DRS?

#15 MadYarpen

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:44

What about high speed corners with closed DRS?

In theory (found on F1technical) they could tune the moment it switches on with the size of pipes used during certain GP.

#16 korzeniow

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:44

I think there is no true information, since no one really knows how it works and what is it aimed at, whether it is top speed boost, or downforce boost, whether it works with DRS closed, open, both but in different ways, or is actually not connected to DRS at all. Even F1 Technical guys are lost here :drunk:

Also a thought - what if Lotus agreed to ban DDRS for 2013, said they won't be able to use it next year, while in fact this device is not banned, but only they know that? :smoking:


There are reports that Lotus solution passive rather than DRS based, so even if DDRS is banned for 2013 the passive F-Duct is not :smoking:

#17 Menace

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:47

There are reports that Lotus solution passive rather than DRS based, so even if DDRS is banned for 2013 the passive F-Duct is not :smoking:


What I love most about this innovation is that NOBODY knows exactly what it does... kind of like how they are wondering how is the Lotus so quick as it is, when they can find nothing special on it.

That is fine by me. :p

#18 Jovanotti

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:51

In theory (found on F1technical) they could tune the moment it switches on with the size of pipes used during certain GP.

Thx :up: Enstone suprise me again and again.

#19 HPT

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:52

What about high speed corners with closed DRS?


From what I understand, the stall would come once the car reaches, or close to reaching top speed. I don't think there are corners taken at top speed (unless it is effectively a straight, like the last turn at Interlagos).

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#20 MadYarpen

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:04

Thx :up: Enstone suprise me again and again.

Just a theory, though ;)

#21 Jovanotti

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:07

From what I understand, the stall would come once the car reaches, or close to reaching top speed. I don't think there are corners taken at top speed (unless it is effectively a straight, like the last turn at Interlagos).

Yeah, as you say, the last turn in Brazil, but then also Curva Grande, Eau Rouge, Blanchimont or the 130R might be unknowns, especially lacking experience with the system.

#22 korzeniow

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:12

From what I understand, the stall would come once the car reaches, or close to reaching top speed. I don't think there are corners taken at top speed (unless it is effectively a straight, like the last turn at Interlagos).


There are some very fast (around 300 km/h) corners on the callendar like turn 3 in Monza, Blanchimont at Spa, turn 12 at Suzuka

#23 HPT

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:34

There are some very fast (around 300 km/h) corners on the callendar like turn 3 in Monza, Blanchimont at Spa, turn 12 at Suzuka


Yes I know, but with the correct lines those are as good as a straight.

#24 MadYarpen

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:54

And it is not like with no RW car has no rear downforce. There is always a diffusor.

Edited by MadYarpen, 03 August 2012 - 08:55.


#25 grunge

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 09:19

What about high speed corners with closed DRS?

When the DRS is closed the Duct will blow thru the motor hole into the diffuser which will increase the downforce generated by the latter(speculation)

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Pic by ScarbsF1

If the speculation is true,then its a win win in all situations

Edited by grunge, 03 August 2012 - 09:21.


#26 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 09:26

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19064856



Why Mercedes are struggling



The Hungarian Grand Prix was a new low for Mercedes in a season that, over the last few races, has been a story of consistent decline.
It was, first of all, a bit of an embarrassing race for Michael Schumacher.
The aborted start was caused by him stopping in the wrong grid position. He then erroneously switched his engine off - thinking of procedures that applied in the last decade when he was at Ferrari but which have now changed because of different rules.
Starting from the pit lane, Schumacher then got a puncture and incurred a speeding penalty when he came in for new tyres.
But those are just simple mistakes. Much more concerning has been the team's general downward trend in competitiveness.
Mercedes started the season promisingly, with some good qualifying results at the first two races, and then took a dominant win with Nico Rosberg at the Chinese Grand Prix.
At that time, there was a lot of attention on their clever 'double DRS' system.
This links the rear-wing drag-reduction overtaking aid that is on all cars with the front wing to give an extra boost in straight-line speed by reducing the front wing performance as well as the rear.
Back in March, the system aroused a lot of controversy, as many of Mercedes' rivals thought it was illegal - and still do.

When the FIA declared they were happy with it, the expectation was that the other top teams would quickly follow suit. But that hasn't happened.
In the meantime, things have gone downhill for Mercedes. Apart from a strong showing in Monaco, they have never looked close to winning again, and in the last few races they have got slower and slower compared to the other teams.
The nadir was Hungary, where Rosberg and Schumacher qualified 13th and 17th and the car was nowhere near the pace.
Even when the car was qualifying in the top six or so, there was a general trend to Mercedes's weekends - the car was much more competitive in qualifying than in the race.
That has changed a little in recent races but at the same time the car's general competitiveness has gone backwards.
That's because they have developed themselves in a direction to go slower, all because they have been trying to get more consistency from the rear tyres to help race performance. And that is linked to the 'double DRS'.

WHAT WAS THE INITIAL PROBLEM?


Let's analyse what I believe are potential flaws in the 'double DRS', and then work out what has gone wrong as Mercedes tried to fix them.
To do that, we have to start with its benefits.
First of all, the system flatters the car in qualifying, when DRS use is free.
Firstly, because of the extra straight-line speed boost it provides by reducing drag.
And secondly because it balances the car in certain fast corners that, normally, a driver cannot take flat because the car would have too much oversteer (when it feels like it's going to spin). Reducing the effectiveness of the front wing makes the car less 'pointy', so the driver can go through those corners faster.
But in the races, drivers can use DRS only in the designated zone, and only when they are within a second of the car in front.
So because the 'double DRS' was helping Mercedes in qualifying, they will automatically lose more pace relative to the other cars in the race, when it is generally not available.
Quite apart from flattering the car in qualifying, there are also some significant compromises to the system itself.
Firstly, it creates an inherent understeer in the car - lack of front-end grip - because when the driver closes the DRS as he brakes for the corner, the rear wing immediately goes back to producing its maximum downforce, so the rear grip returns immediately, whereas the front wing has a slight delay.
That's because the front wing is connected to the rear wing by a series of pipes running the length of the car.
Before the front wing can work at its full effectiveness, the pressure under it - which includes the volume of air that is in the pipes to the rear wing - has to reduce. Only then will the underside of the front wing reach its lowest pressure, and create the most downforce and grip.
That delay does not happen in the race, because the DRS is not in use, so the car becomes 'oversteery'. So in the first part of the season Mercedes were suffering with a loose rear end in races, which created excessive rear tyre degradation.

HOW HAVE MERCEDES TRIED TO FIX IT?


To solve that rear tyre wear problem, since the Canadian Grand Prix in mid-June Mercedes have removed quite a lot of the downforce-producing devices on the front wing and are never running anywhere near maximum front wing angle.
That reduces the amount of front grip. They've probably lost something like 50-60kg of front downforce so they are running the centre of aerodynamic pressure much further rearward.
The benefit of that is that it will balance the car better so tyre degradation will reduce. But it comes at the cost of a slower overall pace. So the car feels better to drive, but is slower.

WHY WAS HUNGARY SO BAD?


In the context of all this, it is clear why Hungary was Mercedes's worst circuit so far.
Both Rosberg and Schumacher were complaining of mid-corner understeer there.
There are very few big braking zones at the Hungaroring - most of the corners are preceded by short braking episodes. So the delay in the front wing working at maximum effect has a greater impact.
The driver wants to turn in on the brakes there, but the period of reduced effectiveness of the front wing means he does not have the front grip he needs as he turns into the corner.
In the race, Rosberg was more competitive. That will be because DRS can't be used as much, so the initial understeer isn't as big because the front wing is working more effectively sooner.

HOW CAN MERCEDES SOLVE THE PROBLEM?


Mercedes have a very conventional rear-end aerodynamic treatment and are not trying to exploit the exhaust gases for aerodynamic effect in the way McLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull are.
There is 0.2-0.3 seconds a lap in trying to do that - all produced from greater rear-end grip.
So if Mercedes want to improve, they would be better advised to build that kind of exhaust system. That would give them better rear-end grip, which would enable them to put the front downforce back on without suffering the rear instability they had earlier in the year.
And that would give them more overall downforce and the car would go quicker.
If I was them, I would be thinking very seriously about getting rid of the 'double DRS', unless I was absolutely on top of which circuits it will provide a benefit at and which it will create a deficit.
Hungary was probably the circuit where it will affect them most, because of those short braking zones. The next race is at Spa, where the double DRS will provide some benefits, because there are long straights and some kinks where it will be beneficial to run with the DRS open.
But you have to question, on the evidence of the season so far, whether having it is leading them up a blind alley in terms of their development direction.
Gary Anderson, the former technical director of the Jordan, Stewart and Jaguar teams, is BBC F1's technical analyst



#27 korzeniow

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 09:26

When the DRS is closed the Duct will blow thru the motor hole into the diffuser which will increase the downforce generated by the latter(speculation)

Posted Image
Pic by ScarbsF1

If the speculation is true,then its a win win in all situations


That's a guess. I didn't see yet any photo suggesting they blow motor starter hole.

#28 grunge

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 09:47

DDRS doesn't gain this much, sorry. False information.

Instead of coming up with comments like ''this is false/This is true''..try to validate your opinion next time.Very few people have the energy to reply to sweeping statements without any explanation

The speed differential that i posted was noted by many of us during FPs and 3 or 4 of us commented the same on the forum that day..As ive mentioned though,we have no idea whether KR was running DRS during his run with the old Rear wing or not.He might not have been and thus the gap of 12-15 km/hr.

The lotus rear wing is not the same as the Mercedes version..it stalls all three storeys at the back when its open
1.the rear wing 2.the beam wing and 3.the Diffuser..

10-15 km/hr seems very reasonable if suppose the system is efficient is stalling all three when its open.

#29 grunge

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 09:49

That's a guess. I didn't see yet any photo suggesting they blow motor starter hole.


Hence i wrote ''Speculation'' :wave:

Right now,nobody in the media knows how it works.its all guess work..Though as i said Craig is usually right about this stuff

Edited by grunge, 03 August 2012 - 09:49.


#30 2ms

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:27

Are there no photos of the Lotus system as it was being tested?

#31 eREr

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 11:04

Instead of coming up with comments like ''this is false/This is true''..try to validate your opinion next time.Very few people have the energy to reply to sweeping statements without any explanation

The speed differential that i posted was noted by many of us during FPs and 3 or 4 of us commented the same on the forum that day..As ive mentioned though,we have no idea whether KR was running DRS during his run with the old Rear wing or not.He might not have been and thus the gap of 12-15 km/hr.

The lotus rear wing is not the same as the Mercedes version..it stalls all three storeys at the back when its open
1.the rear wing 2.the beam wing and 3.the Diffuser..

10-15 km/hr seems very reasonable if suppose the system is efficient is stalling all three when its open.

We already discussed this in E20 thread. Your theory is completely wrong. Please explain me why only 1 speed trap shows this huge difference and the other 3 don't (the others show almost identical [0-1km/h] difference between FP1 and FP2)?

I still think Kimi missed a braking point before T4 (where that speed trap was placed) and that caused the giant speed boost (which wasn't boost, just Kimi stepped on the brake 0.5s later than usual).

#32 tarmac

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 13:42

How can Lotus device be legal if it works like that? Isnt movable wings banned unless related to DRS activation by driver

Edited by tarmac, 03 August 2012 - 13:43.


#33 Baddoer

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 13:44

I remember W01 had fully passive f-duct back in 2010 (no driver involvement needed). Is it legal or not?

Edited by Baddoer, 03 August 2012 - 13:46.


#34 rossbrawn

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 13:51

Practice results from the last GP showed KR's lotus gained 12 to 15 km/hr running on the main straight with the DDRS wing as compared with the old simple DRS..That is a very significant advantage both for quali pace and then aiding in overtaking during races

What could be a possibility though is that KR didnt use DRS at all in that second run with the old system...if thats the case,then the results are skewed


12 to 15 Km/hr increase, you must be off your rocker. :drunk:

Edited by rossbrawn, 03 August 2012 - 13:51.


#35 grunge

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 14:01

We already discussed this in E20 thread. Your theory is completely wrong. Please explain me why only 1 speed trap shows this huge difference and the other 3 don't (the others show almost identical [0-1km/h] difference between FP1 and FP2)?

I still think Kimi missed a braking point before T4 (where that speed trap was placed) and that caused the giant speed boost (which wasn't boost, just Kimi stepped on the brake 0.5s later than usual).

i wasnt aware of the fact that the other three didnt..Maybe he wasnt using the DDRS to full effect there..If yer referring to Stalling all three rear storeys as my ''theory'',why dont you come up with yours?

In the end it is speculation..i put down the difference to DDRS while u're free to imagine KR missing a braking point

Edited by grunge, 03 August 2012 - 14:10.


#36 Matt Somers

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 16:39

Originally (Hockenheim) myself, Scarbs & N15CK converged on the idea (via Twitter) that is depicted above, here is my article on it: http://www.somersf1....hockenheim.html

After some pondering and the picture of the periscope showing slots in it emerging (via www.f1technical.net) I have adjusted my theory and posted an article regarding it today: http://www.somersf1....uct-system.html

The trouble with the DDRS / Passive F Duct systems are that they can be manipulated in many ways and so until further evidence is available the finite answer on how the system works will elude us.