Jump to content


Photo

Current drivers: weaknesses


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
218 replies to this topic

#201 autosportfan

autosportfan
  • Member

  • 302 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 08 August 2012 - 16:40

Weren't we talking about why alonso isn't perfect ?



Agree... Honesty does not get often mentioned in F1 but it is important and Alonso lacks it. His memory in Singapore was conveniently too selective.





Advertisement

#202 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,352 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 08 August 2012 - 16:45

40 points advantage is great, but Alonso's & Ferrari's policy is looking very vulnerable again this year.
Remember 2010, Alonso lost the championship that year partly because Massa could not take points off both RBR drivers after Germany due to being relegated as a lapdog.


If you can explain that reasoning, I'll be mighty impressed. :cat:

#203 autosportfan

autosportfan
  • Member

  • 302 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 08 August 2012 - 16:45

Who Kimi ?



:lol:



No wonder he does not miss the Scuderia Ferrari!

:lol:


#204 Obi Offiah

Obi Offiah
  • Member

  • 8,648 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 08 August 2012 - 17:59

Whatever. All three cars were close so it was a question of tyre management and strategy. Had he stayed he probably finished third at best behind Grosjean and Perez who started somewhere at the back and finished merely five seconds behind winner.

Seriously, what point are you trying to make? The McLaren is reputed to be harder on its tyres than the cars around it.

#205 BackOnTop

BackOnTop
  • Member

  • 870 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 08 August 2012 - 17:59

If you can explain that reasoning, I'll be mighty impressed. :cat:

People act so innocent sometimes that when they see a ship, they call it a plane. Not related to your reply exactly, just something interesting i post below might get the explanation slightly.

Button rules out teaming up with Alonso at Ferrari
http://totalf1.com/f...nso_at_Ferrari/

“I think if you look at this team – McLaren – you see a team that has achieved so much. And if you look at the red team, you see the same thing. “The Italians are passionate about sports, especially motor sport – but this (McLaren) is the right place for me now. Although, as I’ve always said, ‘never say never’,” Button insisted.

He explained that Ferrari is not the right place for him now because of the unique structure Alonso has built up around him at Maranello.

Asked if he thinks the Spaniard would willingly see ‘his’ team altered to suit the needs of a new teammate, Button answered: “If you asked him, then no, he wouldn’t.


“He is a very intelligent driver and, maybe, in a parallel universe, I’d happily work with him. It would be difficult but it’s always interesting to have someone next to you who’s so tough, so smart. “I admire him as I admired Alain Prost – he created a great atmosphere around him, with very good people.

“I’m sorry for Felipe, but I think Fernando has the whole team around him.”

Edited by BackOnTop, 08 August 2012 - 18:00.


#206 fabr68

fabr68
  • Member

  • 3,963 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 08 August 2012 - 18:27

40 points advantage is great, but Alonso's & Ferrari's policy is looking very vulnerable again this year.
Remember 2010, Alonso lost the championship that year partly because Massa could not take points off both RBR drivers after Germany due to being relegated as a lapdog.

So if Alonso/Ferrari failed against the 2 drivers in 2010 after having a lead, I wonder how the rest of 2012 will pan out with Alonso fighting against 6 drivers- RBR Mclaren & Lotus duo.


So Alonso's weakness is Massa's failure to score points in the same car?

How is a team driver policy a driver weakness? Wouldnt that be a team weakness? If any...


#207 halifaxf1fan

halifaxf1fan
  • Member

  • 4,846 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 08 August 2012 - 18:34

Alonso- is capable of performing at top level only if paired with a subservient No.2. Apart from that, he's a great driver when the whole team is focussed only on him.

A driver who needs to resort to hand waving at Lewis in USA, calling situations like Germany 2010 as 'ridiculous' and crying when Fisi & Trulli is ahead of him is a weakness which borders on Alonso being labelled as a weak & coward driver. Schumi & Vettel (to some extent) suffer the same inferior sister complex.

Hamilton, Raikkonen & Button beats the above three on class, raw-talent, speed, maturity and not afraid of having strong teammates to showcase their skills on track.

If F1 was Olympics, Alonso would be dis-qualified on grounds of breaching the 'spirit of the games' :p



Actually I think he did most of his hand waving at the McLaren pitwall. It was a very sad display for a world champion to be reduced to making gestures at his team who had turned their minds away from him. Dennis and Whitmarsh should have properly supported Alonso that day by moving the slower Hamilton aside, it might have won them the WDC and WCC with one defining decision.

This demonstrated a strength of Alonso's rather than a weakness, his strategic presence of mind was better than that of the McLaren bosses.  ;)

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 08 August 2012 - 19:08.


#208 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,352 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 08 August 2012 - 18:50

People act so innocent sometimes that when they see a ship, they call it a plane.


Funny you'd say that and then go an answering what wasn't at all the question. :)

Button rules out teaming up with Alonso at Ferrari
<snip>


Yeah. Maybe. Whatever.

In any case, irrelevant. The question was for you to explain how Massa being made no.2 prevented him from taking points off Ferraris competitors, as you claimed here:

....Massa could not take points off both RBR drivers after Germany due to being relegated as a lapdog.


Again, how would that work? Ignoring for a moment that it's not even factual true, cause Massa finsihed in front of Vettel in Monza.




#209 BackOnTop

BackOnTop
  • Member

  • 870 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 08 August 2012 - 19:56

Actually I think he did most of his hand waving at the McLaren pitwall. It was a very sad display for a world champion to be reduced to making gestures at his team who had turned their minds away from him. Dennis and Whitmarsh should have properly supported Alonso that day by moving the slower Hamilton aside, it might have won them the WDC and WCC with one defining decision.

This demonstrated a strength of Alonso's rather than a weakness, his strategic presence of mind was better than that of the McLaren bosses.;)

Nice try HaliFFF, now lets put this on the other foot.

Dennis and Whitmarsh should have properly supported Hamilton in Monaco by moving the slower Alonso aside, it might have won them the WDC and WCC with one defining decision.

This demonstrated a weakness of Alonso's rather than a strength, his strategic presence of mind wasn't better than that of the McLaren bosses. (losing championships for both Hamilton & Mclaren)

:D

Edited by BackOnTop, 08 August 2012 - 19:56.


#210 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,112 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 08 August 2012 - 20:26

zzzz, FA/Hamilton 2007 rehashed..... zzzzzzz..... must resist temptation to reach for thread keys and turn to "Lock"..... you guys make it hard though.... maybe 30 mins away will see an improvement and a proper debate on-topic.

#211 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,723 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 08 August 2012 - 20:43

Funny you'd say that and then go an answering what wasn't at all the question. :)

Yeah. Maybe. Whatever.

In any case, irrelevant. The question was for you to explain how Massa being made no.2 prevented him from taking points off Ferraris competitors, as you claimed here:

Again, how would that work? Ignoring for a moment that it's not even factual true, cause Massa finsihed in front of Vettel in Monza.


(topic - Massa's "weaknesses")

I think more to the point is the fact that Massa HASN'T taken points off of his competitors and he hasn't put any significant points on the table either. That is why Ferrari sits in the corner alone with respect to the WCC. Whether it is because Massa can't or because he won't assist doesn't matter - the only important factor is that he "isn't" doing either.

We know it is possible for Massa to do.

Massa assisted in 2007 and 2008 just fine and he was well on his way to doing so in 2010 as well.

Am I the only one who noticed that after Germany 2010, Massa not only failed to match Alonso's performances in any regard, he suddenly and abruptly could no longer seem to score any significant points whatsoever. I don't know about everyone else, but in my opinion, he was either 1) suffering a latent affect of his head injury and from Germany onward, seriously forgot how to drive an F1 car with any competency; or 2) he was asked by Ferrari to drive like a rookie kart boy (perhaps as a contractual matter); or 3) angered with Ferrari/Fernando, Massa decided that if he was going to be subrogated, he was taking any chance of a Ferrari WCC crown down with him.

Some combination of the above or some other reason may be possible, but I do not believe for a moment that Massa's driving from 2010 forward has been reflective of his true talent and ability, except at the beginning of 2010 (before Alonso's #1 status was made glaringly clear) and in other flash in the pan moments.

As I see it: just you wait, sunshine, if he gets a drive for another team with any speed in their package, he'll suddenly make a 'miraculous' recovery from whatever ailments have plagued him since the coming of Alonso to Ferrari and look like his pre-2009 self again (unless he is too old at that point).

Edited by bourbon, 08 August 2012 - 20:45.


#212 rossbrawn

rossbrawn
  • Member

  • 310 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 08 August 2012 - 21:01

Massa assisted in 2007 and 2008 just fine and he was well on his way to doing so in 2010 as well.


I don't remember Massa assisting his team-mate in 2008.

#213 rossbrawn

rossbrawn
  • Member

  • 310 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 08 August 2012 - 21:03

Am I the only one who noticed that after Germany 2010, Massa not only failed to match Alonso's performances in any regard, he suddenly and abruptly could no longer seem to score any significant points whatsoever.


No you're not; that was the killer blow. He lost a small fraction of speed due to his accident, but, IMO that incident has made him what he is today: weak (mentally) and defenseless. It's a sorry tale, really.

#214 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,352 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 08 August 2012 - 21:04

(topic - Massa's "weaknesses")

I think more to the point is the fact that Massa HASN'T taken points off of his competitors and he hasn't put any significant points on the table either. That is why Ferrari sits in the corner alone with respect to the WCC. Whether it is because Massa can't or because he won't assist doesn't matter - the only important factor is that he "isn't" doing either.

We know it is possible for Massa to do.

Massa assisted in 2007 and 2008 just fine and he was well on his way to doing so in 2010 as well.

Am I the only one who noticed that after Germany 2010, Massa not only failed to match Alonso's performances in any regard, he suddenly and abruptly could no longer seem to score any significant points whatsoever. I don't know about everyone else, but in my opinion, he was either 1) suffering a latent affect of his head injury and from Germany onward, seriously forgot how to drive an F1 car with any competency; or 2) he was asked by Ferrari to drive like a rookie kart boy (perhaps as a contractual matter); or 3) angered with Ferrari/Fernando, Massa decided that if he was going to be subrogated, he was taking any chance of a Ferrari WCC crown down with him.

Some combination of the above or some other reason may be possible, but I do not believe for a moment that Massa's driving from 2010 forward has been reflective of his true talent and ability, except at the beginning of 2010 (before Alonso's #1 status was made glaringly clear) and in other flash in the pan moments.

As I see it: just you wait, sunshine, if he gets a drive for another team with any speed in their package, he'll suddenly make a 'miraculous' recovery from whatever ailments have plagued him since the coming of Alonso to Ferrari and look like his pre-2009 self again (unless he is too old at that point).


Yeah, and failing that you can always come back to the head injury. :drunk:

From your 3 points, that's the one with at least a remote connection with reality left.

#215 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 8,415 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 08 August 2012 - 22:34

Massa's main weakness is Smedley.

#216 PassWind

PassWind
  • Member

  • 4,876 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 08 August 2012 - 22:46


Alonso is the most complete driver on the grid today, his only weak point is his ultimate pace, but his unmatched ability to make the most of what he has got more than makes up for it. As to his demeanor, who gives a rats toss its not a weakness. Geez he can even pull stunts on his team mates way better than Micheal could've.

IMO though Micheal was better than all racing today in all areas when he was at his peak, including sneaky underhanded stuff, he has no peer, maybe Senna comes close.....

#217 rossbrawn

rossbrawn
  • Member

  • 310 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 08 August 2012 - 22:54

Geez he can even pull stunts on his team mates way better than Micheal could've.


Yeah, he broadcasts them for all to see :clap: .

#218 halifaxf1fan

halifaxf1fan
  • Member

  • 4,846 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 09 August 2012 - 01:41

Nice try HaliFFF, now lets put this on the other foot.

Dennis and Whitmarsh should have properly supported Hamilton in Monaco by moving the slower Alonso aside, it might have won them the WDC and WCC with one defining decision.

This demonstrated a weakness of Alonso's rather than a strength, his strategic presence of mind wasn't better than that of the McLaren bosses. (losing championships for both Hamilton & Mclaren)

:D



Yes we all saw what supporting a rookie won them in 2007!

I think that experience was not helpful for Lewis in his development as an F1 driver and in particular coping with pressure. It has been a weakness that has followed him.

#219 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,112 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 09 August 2012 - 02:11

zzzz, FA/Hamilton 2007 rehashed..... zzzzzzz..... must resist temptation to reach for thread keys and turn to "Lock"..... you guys make it hard though.... maybe 30 mins away will see an improvement and a proper debate on-topic.

Didn't take too long.

Above post is the reason this thread is now DONE.

Sorry to those who believe in posting in a responsible way, to those that don't/can't - better buck up your ideas and refresh yourself of the forum rules, because otherwise you'll be searching for other places to post.