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Borrowed production bits on F1 racing cars


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#1 Charlieman

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 19:26

In the late 1950s through to 1970 at least, most F1 cars would have worn a component borrowed from a production manufacturer. World championship winning Lotuses used modified Alford and Alder suspension and steering parts. Everything with a DFV engine used familiar Lucas bits.

A modern F1 car uses lots of off the shelf bits in the electronics and electrical departments. But when were major assemblies last used? The last example that I can think of is when F1 designers adopted and modified aluminium/plastic construction radiators from saloon cars. Hart and BMW engine blocks don't count because they are so far evolved from the source car to be unrecognisable. I'm asking about bits where you look at them and think "I'm sure I know where that came from".

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#2 Languedoc

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 02:19

I seem to remember that the Williams FW07's water radiator came from a VW Golf. (I read it somewhere...)
Also I think that special flanged bearings produced by SKF for "normal" cars were used in the Wolf / Fittipaldi and Tyrrell P34

#3 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:45

They were using Porsche CV joints in the not too distant past. Some offroaders I know were scrounging the cast offs for their buggys.
Obviuosly Sir Jacks Buik based Repco engines in the past

#4 PAUL S

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:58

Maybe not quite production car parts but remember reading an article where Patrick Head confirmed helicopter parts were used in the active williams cars

#5 john medley

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 08:04

Ford Anglia brake pedal assembly?

#6 ianselva

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 08:28

The active ride Benetton used Citroen suspension spheres.

#7 Amphicar

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 08:43

Not F1 and not exactly recent but between 1964 and 1969 the Joe Huffaker designed MG Liquid Suspension Special Indy cars used BMC hydrolastic units as shock absorbers.

#8 alansart

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:04

Triumph Herald front uprights?

#9 alansart

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:06

Maybe not quite production car parts but remember reading an article where Patrick Head confirmed helicopter parts were used in the active williams cars


Were the motors used in the Lotus 56 Turbine cars Pratt & Whitney Helicopter engines?


#10 Amphicar

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:32

Were the motors used in the Lotus 56 Turbine cars Pratt & Whitney Helicopter engines?

Yes, a modified version of the P&W ST6B-62. The Continental Aviation & Engineering TS325-1 gas turbines used in the Howmet TX sports prototype were also originally designed as helicopter engines.

#11 f1steveuk

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:21

Wasn't there a Ligier that had quite a few Citreon suspension parts, probably in the 6cm ride height fiasco period?

#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 11:41

Originally posted by alansart
Triumph Herald front uprights?


Mentioned in the opening post... Alford and Alder...

However, as the OP pointed out, he is asking about things much more recent than the last use (Brabham in 1965 or 1967?) of these, he's asking what might have been identifiable in recent years.

#13 Charlieman

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 14:44

Mentioned in the opening post... Alford and Alder...


Indeed. I was partially inspired by this thread:
http://forums.autosp...showtopic=71291

My memory is rusty about VW and Citroen water radiator modification, but didn't it start in Group 5?

#14 FredF1

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 15:46

I seem to remember that the Williams FW07's water radiator came from a VW Golf. (I read it somewhere...)
Also I think that special flanged bearings produced by SKF for "normal" cars were used in the Wolf / Fittipaldi and Tyrrell P34


According to Doug Nye's History Of The Grand Prix car, the FW07 used a VW Golf radiator in 1979 and a Citroën CX radiator in 1980.



#15 alansart

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 16:04

According to Doug Nye's History Of The Grand Prix car, the FW07 used a VW Golf radiator in 1979 and a Citroën CX radiator in 1980.


I'm not surprised. My Formula Ford PRS originally had 2 bespoke radiators placed between the rear radius arms, just in front of the rear wheels. In 1982 they were £120 a time from PRS so having destroyed a few we looked for an alternative which was Vauxhall Nova. £15 each, lighter and far more efficient - plus we moved them further forward so that the rear wheel did less damage on a rear end shunt.

In those days road car technology was moving quickly, so why not make use of what's available.

Edited by alansart, 04 August 2012 - 16:07.


#16 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 16:53

The clutch release bearings supplied by AP Racing for F1 applications well in to the 90's were re-packed Ford Transit parts.

#17 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 23:21

Mentioned in the opening post... Alford and Alder...

However, as the OP pointed out, he is asking about things much more recent than the last use (Brabham in 1965 or 1967?) of these, he's asking what might have been identifiable in recent years.

There must be a LOT of Heralds out there in the world with no frony stubs. Lots of clubbies used them too, as did a lot of open wheelers too ofcourse.
Too me quite spindly things and a lot are cracked or bent. [50 years after manufacture]

#18 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 23:21

The clutch release bearings supplied by AP Racing for F1 applications well in to the 90's were re-packed Ford Transit parts.

As are Transit, D series brake reservoir bottles

#19 mariner

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 03:34

I am not sure any world championship Lotus's used the Herald upright. IIRC the Lotus 25 onwards had custom cast front uprights.

I do recall seeing the famous Herald upright ( or its sister) on Mario Andretti's Indy winning tube frame car ( Brawner)? - I always wondered how it took the Indy cornering loads!

I think the Herald upright was quickly modded by machining the lower trunnion thread off so as to allow a ball joint to go on so the geometry was not set by castor angle

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#20 f1steveuk

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 16:48

Wasn't there a Ligier that had quite a few Citreon suspension parts, probably in the 6cm ride height fiasco period?


To answer my own question, it was the JS21.

#21 arttidesco

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 18:40

I have a vivid memory of a documentary about Brian Henton's 1977 season in which his wife called a Ford Dealership to procure a couple off the shelf Ford Granada drive shafts for the British Formula One Racing Teams March 761. Does anyone else recall this ?

#22 BRG

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 20:50

Surely even now, things like wheel bearings, CV joints, clutch components, electrical parts and so on are bought in, so may well be off the shelf parts?

#23 Amphicar

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 21:26

Surely even now, things like wheel bearings, CV joints, clutch components, electrical parts and so on are bought in, so may well be off the shelf parts?

Yes but specialist "off the shelf" parts - not items you'd find in a mass market car or van.

#24 Roger Clark

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:57

Early Gordinis had steering wheels from Simcas, including horn button.

#25 Wilyman

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:16

Early Gordinis had steering wheels from Simcas, including horn button.



We might be getting off topic here.
The early Simca Gordini monos also used the road car's Dubonnet front suspension units and I'm sure their finned alloy brake drums.

Edited by Wilyman, 06 August 2012 - 08:17.


#26 Roger Clark

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:27

We might be getting off topic here.
The early Simca Gordini monos also used the road car's Dubonnet front suspension units and I'm sure their finned alloy brake drums.

I'm not sure why it's off topic. I was just amused about the idea of a horn button on a racing car.

#27 f1steveuk

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:55

Surely even now, things like wheel bearings, CV joints, clutch components, electrical parts and so on are bought in, so may well be off the shelf parts?



Not so certain. From my limited time at Stewart Grand Prix, these parts may be off the shelf, but aerospace rather than automotive, and even then these were limited. So many parts are now made specifically. I watched a bearing race broken down, and the outer sleeve replaced with a machined carbon ring and I suspect, given time, the inner race would have been replaced, then only using original ball bearings, until someone worked out a way you didn't need them or they could be made in house, better and lighter.

#28 David Lawson

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 09:23

As the thread has moved away slightly from the original posters point I will add to it, the Lotus 49 used a Ford Escort steering rack.

David

#29 Cargo

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 11:42

I seem to remember that the throttle cables on many formula cars in "the old days" were just shortened versions of the cables usually installed in British double-decker buses. this becos they were extremely heavy-duty and fail-proof.

#30 dancin stu

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 15:16

I can think of one item that is used that is off a production road car that is used on current Formula 1 cars, although not for it's original purpose....

Windscreen washer jet pumps make for excellent driver drinks bottle pumps ;)

#31 Duc-Man

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 16:15

The Shadow Mk.II & III Can-Am cars with inboard front brakes used Porsche 914 driveshafts to connect the breaks with the wheel hubs.

#32 NPP

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 20:10

The Shadow Mk.II & III Can-Am cars with inboard front brakes used Porsche 914 driveshafts to connect the breaks with the wheel hubs.


I admit to having no engineering knowledge whatsoever so please bear this in mind when I ask: what is the benefit of inboard brakes in a car with wheels enclosed in bodywork? I understand how they make sense in an open-wheeler.

#33 Tim Murray

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 20:39

Reduced unsprung weight - the less weight you have on the wheel side of the spring the better the roadholding.

#34 arttidesco

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 21:34

Reduced unsprung weight - the less weight you have on the wheel side of the spring the better the roadholding.


Always wondered why the front end of my 2CV's, with inboard front brakes, handled so well  ;)

Trying desperately to get back on topic I notice that the Lotus 49's made use not only of Ford Escort steering racks, but of common bungee chords to hold the oil tank in position on the original 49's and also as the return springs for the DRS on the later 49B's.

#35 JacnGille

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 00:52

Always wondered why the front end of my 2CV's, with inboard front brakes, handled so well ;)

You mean it wasn't the mass damper that made the difference??? :stoned:

#36 Duc-Man

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 15:12

About the actuall topic: I guess todays F1 cars share propably more parts with a notebook or a cellphone than with a normal production car. You might find some cable connectors, cable tights and maybe a handfull of bolts and nuts that might be also used in a Ford Focus or VW Golf.
This might change a bit when they bring in the 1.6 litre turbo engines. The turbochargers are supossed to be 'production' parts. And maybe one or the other engine will be drawn from a normal stock block. Who knows.

BTW: How many cylinders will those be allowed to have?

About the Shadow Mk.II:

Reduced unsprung weight - the less weight you have on the wheel side of the spring the better the roadholding.

Let me quote Peter Bryant from his book Can-Am Challanger:
"I decided to use 12" diameter Lockheed disc brakes all around. That meant the rears could be mounted outboard but the fronts had to be inboard because you can't get 12" brake rotors inside 12" rims."