23 replies to this topic

[simonlewisbooks]

I see the Maserati Tipo 151/3 recreation is down to run in this years RAC TT at Goodwood.
A race for GT cars...

Doesn't the Maser' count as a prototype, rather than a GT?
On which matter, the Lister coupe, lovely that it is, must surely be a prototype as it's always described as unique?

Don't 1960s GT rules, even when famously stretched (and then some) by Ferrari, called for a degree of 'production' which neither Maserati nor Lister can boast?

Even Enzo didn't get the 250LM passed as a GT and there were quite a lot of those built.

Your thoughts chaps?

[Jean L]

Experimentale,created for Le Mans 1962,was for prototype 3000cc to 4000cc with some of the GT rules.

[D-Type]

I'd wondered about this too.

I feel that cars that were never completed in period like the Kieft-Climax and the Walker-Climax come into the same category.

Another issue I have is oversized engines - Lotus XIs should be 1100cc(FWA) not 1200 (FWE), Anglias should be 997cc or at a pinch 1200 - no more, A35s should be 948cc and not 1275 or any of the larger later developments, V8 BRMs should be 1.5 litre, Aston Martin DBR4 and DBR5 should be 2.5 litre not 3 litre.

But I suppose it comes down to the Revival being a fantasy of "What might have been" and we are trying to recapture the spirit of the era.

[rbm]

...
Don't 1960s GT rules, even when famously stretched (and then some) by Ferrari, called for a degree of 'production' which neither Maserati nor Lister can boast?

....

I don't think that the 60's GT rules can have called for much production.

The 1964/65 Wilson is a one off space framed car, designed by Jo Marquart, running a ford pre-cross flow with a Hewland box which ran as a GT in period in both domestic and international races in the UK.

Edited by rbm, 10 August 2012 - 09:56.

[simonlewisbooks]

I agree about the 'fantasy'aspect. A lot of it is more down to the look of the whole thing than whats beneath the skin.

But the Maser and the Lister look out of place among 250GTs and E Types in any case. They didn't race in their class in period did they?

[David Wright]

I'm with you - I'd restrict the race to GTs only. However, prototypes have regularly been allowed to run in this event e.g. the Ferrari 330 LMB and the ISO Grifo AC3 as well as the Lister you've mentioned.

[simonlewisbooks]

I'm with you - I'd restrict the race to GTs only. However, prototypes have regularly been allowed to run in this event e.g. the Ferrari 330 LMB and the ISO Grifo AC3 as well as the Lister you've mentioned.

Yep, thats two more I wondered about - in all these cases (Maserati excepted so far, only as it has yet to run) these are/potentially front runners which does alter the whole ethic of the race. Did the LMB or the Iso even race at Goodwood in period?

It sounds like I'm getting all pedantic about this, but in all honesty I just love to watch all of these cars in action! It does strike me there's one-rule for some and another for the rest. Being English and brought up on the deeply ingrained concept of 'fair play' and all that, I find it a bit uncomfortable to think about.Does it really matter?
Probably not.

I guess it's the age old problem with 'historic' racing of what 'history' you are recreating (F1/Tasman, GT/Le Mans, RAC Saloons/??? ) and what actual cars are out there and available to begin with. Would you rather not see a 3 litre DBR4 if a 2.5 litre version isn't a viable replacement?

[Dutchy]

Yep, thats two more I wondered about - in all these cases (Maserati excepted so far, only as it has yet to run) these are/potentially front runners which does alter the whole ethic of the race. Did the LMB or the Iso even race at Goodwood in period?

It sounds like I'm getting all pedantic about this, but in all honesty I just love to watch all of these cars in action! It does strike me there's one-rule for some and another for the rest. Being English and brought up on the deeply ingrained concept of 'fair play' and all that, I find it a bit uncomfortable to think about.Does it really matter?
Probably not.

I guess it's the age old problem with 'historic' racing of what 'history' you are recreating (F1/Tasman, GT/Le Mans, RAC Saloons/??? ) and what actual cars are out there and available to begin with. Would you rather not see a 3 litre DBR4 if a 2.5 litre version isn't a viable replacement?

This "problem" also occurs the other way round. I greatly miss seeing the ex Pat Hoare/Neil Corner Ferrari Dino in its 3 litre V12 guise - who can forget that fabulous noise? Sadly it has been refitted with a V6 to conform to period F1 regs (as well as various other appendages and alterations).

Edited by Dutchy, 10 August 2012 - 11:29.

[nicanary]

The races that pain me the most are the 50s saloons. I'm old enough to have seen these races in period, and frankly the cars looked nothing like they do today, roller-skate wheels et al.
I suppose if it amuses and entertains the crowd.... It's quite fun to see a Vanguard or Auntie Rover having a go, but I can't ever recall seeing one actually in a race of the time.

Curmudgeons, that's what we are. If you're trying to recreate a representative grid from "back in the day" though, you have to draw a line somewhere.

(Goodwood aren't alone here - the organisers of the Mille Miglia allow the rich and famous to take part in cars which have the most tenuous of links with the great race)

[Dutchy]

(Goodwood aren't alone here - the organisers of the Mille Miglia allow the rich and famous to take part in cars which have the most tenuous of links with the great race)

Didn't the current organises of the Mille Miglia retrospective at one time stipulate they would only accept cars of a type that actually competed in the original event? Presumably pressure was brought to bear......?

[nicanary]

Didn't the current organises of the Mille Miglia retrospective at one time stipulate they would only accept cars of a type that actually competed in the original event? Presumably pressure was brought to bear......?

Wouldn't be surprised - Bernie has long fingers. It's who you know, rather than what you have.

[Belmondo]

This "problem" also occurs the other way round. I greatly miss seeing the ex Pat Hoare/Neil Corner Ferrari Dino in its 3 litre V12 guise - who can forget that fabulous noise? Sadly it has been refitted with a V6 to conform to period F1 regs (as well as various other appendages and alterations).

I miss that engine too – but I thought Tony Smith changed the engine because he prefers the 246, rather than to comply with any regs?

[Duc-Man]

Would you rather not see a 3 litre DBR4 if a 2.5 litre version isn't a viable replacement?

GTs and prototypes...where do you draw the line? If you stick stricktly to the homologation rules from back in the day you will lose cars from the grid that should actually be there. Like the Iso Grifo A3C that was obviously intented to be a GT and not a prototype. I think if that car was meant to be a prototype it would have been much more radical like the P538.
And deciding if it is a GT or a prototype by the size of the engine...? If a car ran in period in different specs in both categories it should be allowed to enter a GT race. It is still the same type car.
I also would prefare seing a Iso Grifo 'prototype' competing in a GT-race over a (legal) Ford GT40 dominating a GT-race at any time.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Sorry guys , I am quite confused but to go back to the start , what is to you a Maserati 151/3 ? To me it is the 1964 prototype and nothing else. Has someone made a new one ? And want to do GT racing ? All T151's were Prototypes made especially for Le Mans ( = high speed) . In 1962 they were 4 litres and in 1963/4 they were 5 litres V8 engined. But I am courious about the look of the one mentioned here ?

The Bizzarrini A3C was also a Protoype , never getting a big enogh production number to become a GT under the rules then and I am talking the 5.3 Chevy engined car.

Edited by Bjorn Kjer, 10 August 2012 - 17:52.

[arttidesco]

But I am courious about the look of the one mentioned here ?

As seen at the FoS and discussed here.

[Bjorn Kjer]

This Monster Maserati was never intended to be a GT. Its purpose with 3 entries in 1962 (2xCunningham , plus Simone) was only the Le Mans . In 63 and 64 and 65 where Casner was killed practising it was entered by Maserati France /Col.Johnny Simone as in 1962.
This rebuild or newbuild or whatever certainly has the right look . Great work !
Thanks for the links!

[RCH]

The Goodwood TT "recreation" is of course nothing of the kind, the race was never open to the cars it is now, back in period. It is a mixture of homologated GT cars and front engined closed prototypes but surely the better for it to allow the big Maseratis; the Lister coupe; the Aston DP212; the Lister developed Sunbeam Tiger and others to race? To be strictly period it would have to be restricted to either just GT cars or thrown open to 250P/LM Ferraris and early CanAm type cars which have their own event. Incidentally I believe the Maserati 151 was intended as a GT car. For a time it seemed as though the World Sports Car championship from 1962 would be for GT cars only, this had Ferrari develop the GTO; Jaguar the "Lowdrag" coupe; Aston Martin the 212 and presumably Maserati the 151 all in the hope that they could be homologated in some way or other.

The "hotrods" that race in the pre 1960 version of the St Mary's Trophy I find particularly annoying. Why are A35's and A40's allowed apparently up to 1400cc engines when the Mk1 Jaguar is seemingly restricted to 2.4 litres? One particularly blatant piece of rule stretching is an "Alexander" Hillman Minx. In period this would just about have acquired the 1500 engine yet they are seemingly happy for it to run the 1725 (presumably 5 bearing) unit which did not appear until the mid-'60's and even later Holbay mods.

Edited by RCH, 11 August 2012 - 06:49.

[Bjorn Kjer]

In 1962 the World Championship for Makes reserved participation to Grand Touring cars only. Concerned that these more mundane entries might cause attendance to decline the Automobile Club de l'Ouest , organizers of the 24 Hours of Le Mans created a new prototype/GT category . At the urgent request of to highly motivated (and paying) Maserati faithfulls , Trident importer Colonel Johnny Simone and Briggs Cunningham , chief-engineer Giulio Alfieri designed a car with one specific objective in mind ; victory at Le Mans. Thus the Tipo 151 Coupe was born , Modena's last-ditch attemp to ward off impending dominance of the Prototype class by the reasr-engined Ferraris.
First part of the introduction in the book MASERATI TIPO 151 The last monster from Modena , a complete racing history from 1962 to 1965 by Michel Bollee and Willem Oosthoek.

[RCH]

I At the urgent request of to highly motivated (and paying) Maserati faithfulls , Trident importer Colonel Johnny Simone and Briggs Cunningham , chief-engineer Giulio Alfieri designed a car with one specific objective in mind ; victory at Le Mans. Thus the Tipo 151 Coupe was born , Modena's last-ditch attemp to ward off impending dominance of the Prototype class by the reasr-engined Ferraris.
First part of the introduction in the book MASERATI TIPO 151 The last monster from Modena , a complete racing history from 1962 to 1965 by Michel Bollee and Willem Oosthoek.

Doesn't mean to say that the idea hadn't been in his mind prior to the 1962 prototype rules but as a GT car! Maserati had a mid-engined car which could be, and was, developed into a prototype.

[nicanary]

The Goodwood TT "recreation" is of course nothing of the kind, the race was never open to the cars it is now, back in period. It is a mixture of homologated GT cars and front engined closed prototypes but surely the better for it to allow the big Maseratis; the Lister coupe; the Aston DP212; the Lister developed Sunbeam Tiger and others to race? To be strictly period it would have to be restricted to either just GT cars or thrown open to 250P/LM Ferraris and early CanAm type cars which have their own event. Incidentally I believe the Maserati 151 was intended as a GT car. For a time it seemed as though the World Sports Car championship from 1962 would be for GT cars only, this had Ferrari develop the GTO; Jaguar the "Lowdrag" coupe; Aston Martin the 212 and presumably Maserati the 151 all in the hope that they could be homologated in some way or other.

The "hotrods" that race in the pre 1960 version of the St Mary's Trophy I find particularly annoying. Why are A35's and A40's allowed apparently up to 1400cc engines when the Mk1 Jaguar is seemingly restricted to 2.4 litres? One particularly blatant piece of rule stretching is an "Alexander" Hillman Minx. In period this would just about have acquired the 1500 engine yet they are seemingly happy for it to run the 1725 (presumably 5 bearing) unit which did not appear until the mid-'60's and even later Holbay mods.

Your nomination of the saloons as "hotrods" is very apt, and exactly the point I was trying to make in an earlier post. I have been told by other enthusiasts that the race is supposed to be a crowd-pleaser, a piece of theatre, a bit of fun etc.. But racing in period with far more standard cars WAS fun - I believe that a race with cars prepared to the standards of the time would be perfectly entertaining, and more satisfying to purists (and curmudgeons).

[Bjorn Kjer]

I have no idea what was in anybodys mind at that time , I only try to keep fact for what it is/was untill otherwise proven.

Which midengined Maserati are you thinking of ?

[RCH]

I have no idea what was in anybodys mind at that time , I only try to keep fact for what it is/was untill otherwise proven.

Which midengined Maserati are you thinking of ?

Agreed, it just seems odd that given the prototype regulations for 1962 continuing the development of the Tipo 63/4 would have seemed a more advanced option rather than coming up with something which owed more to 1950's practice but could perhaps have been with a big stretch of the imagination a "racing version" of the 3500/5000GT. Unless of course there would have been practical considerations in adapting the "birdcage" concept to the new prototype regs. They would do it for '65 though.

[RCH]

Your nomination of the saloons as "hotrods" is very apt, and exactly the point I was trying to make in an earlier post. I have been told by other enthusiasts that the race is supposed to be a crowd-pleaser, a piece of theatre, a bit of fun etc.. But racing in period with far more standard cars WAS fun - I believe that a race with cars prepared to the standards of the time would be perfectly entertaining, and more satisfying to purists (and curmudgeons).

I'm not so much against the hotrods as such, I just want to see a level playing field. My first memories of saloon car racing, back in 1960ish, are of Jaguars dominating, it just seems as though the Goodwood regs. are designed to prevent Mk I/II saloons from winning yet this was a fact of life for several seasons.

[nicanary]

I'm not so much against the hotrods as such, I just want to see a level playing field. My first memories of saloon car racing, back in 1960ish, are of Jaguars dominating, it just seems as though the Goodwood regs. are designed to prevent Mk I/II saloons from winning yet this was a fact of life for several seasons.

Quite. A.35s would not have managed to overtake as they pleased - although I understand it happened at Crystal Palace. Are these hotrods allowed in at regular classic series, or are they just one-offs built for the Revival?