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Ferrari & #1 status policy [split]


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#101 garoidb

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 19:21

Yeah, he COULD have caught Alonso... So what? Do I need to tell you? Alonso almost gets a WDC!! If Massa COULD have catched him, he too could have a go.

As I said, the remaining of the season says you -and Ferrari- are right, but you can´t start with team-orders with that scenario, it´s disgusting.


He could only have caught Alonso if he (Alonso) had a much poorer second half of the season than he actually did have. In that scenario, neither of them would be in with a shout of the WDC.

The points gaps you talk about are to Alonso. Those are not the relevant gaps. Ferrari are not running their own little intra-team competition. They are, now as then, trying to compete with Red Bull and McLaren for at least one of the world championships. As of Hockenhem 2010, only the WDC was possible and only Alonso had the possibility to win it.

I don't share your aversion to team orders in these circumstances.

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#102 Skinnyguy

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 19:30

The points gaps you talk about are to Alonso. Those are not the relevant gaps.


Yes they are. If your drivers are roughly in the same situation points wise, and halfway through the season, you don´t mess up with them. Let them do their thing.

Anyway, I respect your criteria, of course there are different ways of handling things. I´m just saying I wouldn´t do it and that I find it disgusting. Too little gap, too much to go for me.

He could only have caught Alonso if he (Alonso) had a much poorer second half of the season than he actually did have.


Massa regaining form? :wave: Again, it turned out to be right call, but there was no way to know back then, and they pulled it anyway.



#103 Kvothe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 19:39

First, Alonso didn't make "a series" of errors. I count 3: the jump start, crash in Monaco free practice and the move on Kubica in Silverstone, the latter already being a bit of a stretch to count as a full blown mistake.

Second, yes Massa was ahead of him a few times, but even in that period he never was able to drive away from Alonso in the race, instead he usually held Alonso up, fighting like I've hardly seen Massa fight anyone else. Curisously the only time Massa really had a better all-round weekend than Alonso came in Spa, at a time Alonso was already de-facto no.1 and Massa, by common wisdom of this board, already a broken man courtesy of Hockenheim. :drunk: So that one doesn't fit the theory at all, I'm afraid.

And finally, everyone conveniently ignores the most likely reason for Alonsos mediocre first half of 2010, namely how he had to adjust to a new team, car and working environment. Alonso himself is on record before the season warning not to expect him at 100 percent during the first races, and guess what he was right. A certain Jenson Button has frequently allude to similar things, it's simply unreasonable for a driver changing teams to be at his best form the go (the odd early win notwithstanding). But of course such trivialities don't fit with theories of weak Alonso unable to compete with his teammates, so they are ignored like you just did. Go figure.

Anyway I trust you'll remember things like acclimatisation phases and learning curves of integration, once Hamilton has changed teams one day. :)


Firstly you forgot to mention turn 1 in Aus where he cut across Button and span out, his dozing off and subsequent rescue by the FIA after the safety car in Monaco and the bumbling way he dealt with backmarkers in Canada losing not only the victory but second place as well. These when combined with his lack luster race in Turkey and his fixation with Hamilton's race in Valencia whilst being overtaken by Kamui Kobayashi, don't paint a pretty picture of the man lauded by most as the best driver of the season.

Secondly, I stated Spa aside in parenthesis, however it seems to be the exception that proves the rule. Who cares if Massa wasn't able to drive away, he got ahead and was able to defend successfully, his performances in 2010 relative to today were vastly different, and the results show that the downward trend became apparent after Hockenheim 2010 when the team put their full backing behind Alonso.

Thirdly I don't think that excuse can be given as much weight as you seem to think it does. Both Alonso and Button despite being new to their respective teams were ironically the first ones to score victories in the 2010 season, in fact Jenson scored two, also that excuse only excuses performance relative to a team mate not the most mistakes of any front runner in 2010 which ultimately cost him the championship. I also think Alonso had no real difficulty sliding into the team, and building the team around himself especially after his first victory, after all he is lauded for his adaptability.

Fourthly there's no need to mention Hamilton, he was never a part of the actual discussion.

As I said its interesting to remark the contrast in their performances before and after Hockenheim 2010 and that what appeared to change which was mostly their mental focus. To me it suggests that Ferrari would be a fool not to keep the No1 policy they have as it seems to allow one of the best, if not the best driver at the moment to perform at the top of his game.

Edited by Kvothe, 14 August 2012 - 19:46.


#104 as65p

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 19:42

Yes they are. If your drivers are roughly in the same situation points wise, and halfway through the season, you don´t mess up with them. Let them do their thing.

Anyway, I respect your criteria, of course there are different ways of handling things. I´m just saying I wouldn´t do it and that I find it disgusting. Too little gap, too much to go for me.



Massa regaining form? :wave: Again, it turned out to be right call, but there was no way to know back then, and they pulled it anyway.


I respect too your opinion that it was too early for team orders and / or that team orders are, well, not nice.

I reckon however that Ferrari did have a way of knowing. They would certainly have been able to judge Massa overall potential, and they would also have been able to see (from tons of data) how Alonso was getting better every race. Coupled with his points advantage over Massa and the gap to Vettel at the point it wasn't exactly rocket science for the team to grab their slim last chance with both hands.

#105 BillBald

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 19:43

And there are similarities - to McLaren which didn't fire Kova after 2008. Whats the explanation for that?


Kova's first season at McLaren was less than stellar, but there were some mitigating factors - getting used to a new team, and the accident in Spain. It wasn't unreasonable to give him another chance.

If they had kept Kova on for another year after 2009, perhaps on the grounds that there was no-one 'definitely' able to do better, then I would be saying that this was a decision by McLaren which requires an explanation.



#106 garoidb

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 19:59

Yes they are. If your drivers are roughly in the same situation points wise, and halfway through the season, you don´t mess up with them. Let them do their thing.


At the time they had to make the decision, Alonso had 31 more points than Massa (98 versus 67). That is not roughly the same situation points wise.

Anyway, I respect your criteria, of course there are different ways of handling things. I´m just saying I wouldn´t do it and that I find it disgusting. Too little gap, too much to go for me.


If this was just about a competition beween Fernando versus Felipe (say if they were both firmly out of the WDC), that would be fine. I don't think you are properly considering the actual WDC situation and looking at it from Ferrari's perspective.

Massa regaining form? :wave: Again, it turned out to be right call, but there was no way to know back then, and they pulled it anyway.


Even if Massa had Alonso's second half of 2010, and Alonso had Massa's, he would not have come close to the WDC.

#107 Ferrari2183

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:04

Firstly you forgot to mention turn 1 in Aus where he cut across Button and span out, his dozing off and subsequent rescue by the FIA after the safety car in Monaco and the bumbling way he dealt with backmarkers in Canada losing not only the victory but second place as well. These when combined with his lack luster race in Turkey and his fixation with Hamilton's race in Valencia whilst being overtaken by Kamui Kobayashi, don't paint a pretty picture of the man lauded by most as the best driver of the season.

Secondly, I stated Spa aside in parenthesis, however it seems to be the exception that proves the rule. Who cares if Massa wasn't able to drive away, he got ahead and was able to defend successfully, his performances in 2010 relative to today were vastly different, and the results show that the downward trend became apparent after Hockenheim 2010 when the team put their full backing behind Alonso.

Thirdly I don't think that excuse can be given as much weight as you seem to think it does. Both Alonso and Button despite being new to their respective teams were ironically the first ones to score victories in the 2010 season, in fact Jenson scored two, also that excuse only excuses performance relative to a team mate not the most mistakes of any front runner in 2010 which ultimately cost him the championship. I also think Alonso had no real difficulty sliding into the team, and building the team around himself especially after his first victory, after all he is lauded for his adaptability.

Fourthly there's no need to mention Hamilton, he was never a part of the actual discussion.

As I said its interesting to remark the contrast in their performances before and after Hockenheim 2010 and that what appeared to change which was mostly their mental focus. To me it suggests that Ferrari would be a fool not to keep the No1 policy they have as it seems to allow one of the best, if not the best driver at the moment to perform at the top of his game.

What downward trend are you referring to? Here are Massa's results before Germany: 2, 3, 7, 9, 6, 4, 7, 15, 11, 15

And here are his results Germany and beyond: 2, 4, 4, 3, 8, Ret, 3, 15, 10

The theory that the German team orders destroyed Massa are unfounded.


#108 as65p

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:11

Kova's first season at McLaren was less than stellar, but there were some mitigating factors - getting used to a new team, and the accident in Spain. It wasn't unreasonable to give him another chance.

If they had kept Kova on for another year after 2009, perhaps on the grounds that there was no-one 'definitely' able to do better, then I would be saying that this was a decision by McLaren which requires an explanation.


Yeah, I'm perfectly aware that you make up different criteria depending on the names involved. I also love your "mitigating factors" for Kova and how supposedly you never think of similar factors in Massas case.

Last but not least, show me the driver of similar calibre to Button being available any time since Massa performs sub-par, and how Ferrari let the opportunity pass to hire him. Let me emulate your style once, just for fun: Many people think that with Button not becoming available, McLaren would have retained Kova for a third season. Any unbiased person would agree with that, you know.  ;)

#109 hammibal

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:15

Yeah, he COULD have caught Alonso... So what? Do I need to tell you? Alonso almost gets a WDC!! If Massa COULD have catched him, he too could have a go.

As I said, the remaining of the season says you -and Ferrari- are right, but you can´t start with team-orders with that scenario, it´s disgusting.

You dont seem to realise the points difference was only 31 points because of a spate of errors by Alonso, performance wise Massa was never really in the same ballpark, Massa didnt have a chance of the WDC, not only because he was 78 points behind but also because he never had the performance level and Ferrari knew this

#110 hammibal

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:25

What downward trend are you referring to? Here are Massa's results before Germany: 2, 3, 7, 9, 6, 4, 7, 15, 11, 15

And here are his results Germany and beyond: 2, 4, 4, 3, 8, Ret, 3, 15, 10

The theory that the German team orders destroyed Massa are unfounded.

Looking at Massa's results its a joke that anyone can think that Massa was ever going to be a viable WDC contender in 2010

#111 BillBald

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:32

Yeah, I'm perfectly aware that you make up different criteria depending on the names involved. I also love your "mitigating factors" for Kova and how supposedly you never think of similar factors in Massas case.

Last but not least, show me the driver of similar calibre to Button being available any time since Massa performs sub-par, and how Ferrari let the opportunity pass to hire him. Let me emulate your style once, just for fun: Many people think that with Button not becoming available, McLaren would have retained Kova for a third season. Any unbiased person would agree with that, you know. ;)


People have been trying to find 'mitigating factors' for Massa, and the main one which seems to come up is that Massa has lost motivation due to the team's evident preference for Alonso - if you don't find that acceptable, try suggesting some of your own.

I suppose that if McLaren had retained Kova for a third season, people would have started saying the same things about Lewis which they are now saying about Alonso - he's just too good, no other driver can live with him in the same team. Except you, of course, I don't think you would have been saying that.



#112 puxanando

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:35

People have been trying to find 'mitigating factors' for Massa, and the main one which seems to come up is that Massa has lost motivation due to the team's evident preference for Alonso -


Please explain! Alonso all he did giving HIS BEST! You really think Ferrari would not like to have more points in K-WM??


#113 Skinnyguy

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:37

You dont seem to realise the points difference was only 31 points because of a spate of errors by Alonso, performance wise Massa was never really in the same ballpark, Massa didnt have a chance of the WDC, not only because he was 78 points behind but also because he never had the performance level and Ferrari knew this


Räikkönen did a rubbish first half of 2007 and won the WDC. Schumacher did a rubbish first half of 2003 and won the WDC. Schumacher did a rubbish first half of 2006 and nearly got it. Massa did a rubbish first part of 2008 and nearly got it.

There was nothing enough to justify the decission BEFORE it was taken. It was really unfair.

#114 Seanspeed

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:38

Rubbish, Germany 2010 was totally uncalled for. The rest of the season made clear it was the right thing to do, but they were ready to sacrifice Felipe when he was very much still in the WDC race. Felipe would have left Hockenheim 24 points off Alonso, less than a race.

Yea, I've gone over this a million times - simple as this, though: Massa was NOT in the title race in 2010. You'd have to be incredibly foolish or a Massa fanboy to believe otherwise.

We don't know, but I am going to venture that Ferrari's WCCs chances would have been much better if they hadn't chosen so quickly in 2010.

People are going to believe what they want to believe, I guess.

#115 Kvothe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:42

What downward trend are you referring to? Here are Massa's results before Germany: 2, 3, 7, 9, 6, 4, 7, 15, 11, 15

And here are his results Germany and beyond: 2, 4, 4, 3, 8, Ret, 3, 15, 10

The theory that the German team orders destroyed Massa are unfounded.


Downward trend in performance not results which tell some if not the full story.

Before Germany his lowest position based on performance was a ninth in China in a wet race, and a seventh in Turkey beating Alonso in the dry. He was able to match and beat Alonso on several occasions and the last three results make it look worse except:
The 15th in Canada down to him breaking his front wing in a first lap incident with a divebombing Liuzzi. He had qualifed seventh
The 11th in Valencia was down to the ill timed safety car and double stacking behind Alonso, up to that point he was running in fourth behind Alonso
The 15th place in Silverstone down to a puncture after a first lap incident with Alonso, after qualifying seventh but managing with a good start to get right behind him.

So in general considering the relative pace of all of the cars, his results performance wise weren't bad, and it was only three monumental examples of bad luck in the last three races which put him out of the championship contention.

I don't think we should include Germany in the results post Hockenheim (which is what I've said) for obvious reasons.

After he got a fourth in Spa thanks to two of the leaders crashing out one way or another. (Also he beat Alonso, but the latter struggled on a wet track during qualifying, got hit by Barichello, chose the wrong tyres and span out having a mare of a race).
Snagged third place with the fastest car at Monza, but was nowhere near the other two drivers.
Finished 8th in Singapore a track which he had almost won at in the past (nelson aside), compared to his team mate who won the race.
Retired in Japan after poor decision making on the first lap.
Scored a lucky podium in Korea far behind the two leaders, and only because Vettel, Webber and Rosberg dnfd
and than had two abysmal races in Brazil and Abu Dhabi which would frame the rest of his career up to date.

Performance wise he was definitely on a downward trend, and the nightmare of Spa aside not once did he beat or outqualify Alonso again.

Edited by Kvothe, 14 August 2012 - 20:53.


#116 as65p

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:45

People have been trying to find 'mitigating factors' for Massa, and the main one which seems to come up is that Massa has lost motivation due to the team's evident preference for Alonso - if you don't find that acceptable, try suggesting some of your own.


People, yeah. :) In case you forgot, that's the one you came up with. In no way am I interested in mitigating factors. Just saying that if you find them for Kova, you gotta be aware of them for Massa.

And for the umpteenth time now it has been shown that Massa did NOT disintegrate after Germany, instead he performed slightly better than before. Strange how your kind keeps running away form that. Oh well, it's a fact, maybe you're not so fond of those.

I suppose that if McLaren had retained Kova for a third season, people would have started saying the same things about Lewis which they are now saying about Alonso - he's just too good, no other driver can live with him in the same team. Except you, of course, I don't think you would have been saying that.


Doubtful, given that Hamilton never had a run of consistency in 2008/09 coming close to Alonsos last 35 or so races. Therefore, indeed I wouldn't be saying that. And guess what, many people would probably agree with me... :D

#117 Skinnyguy

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:48

Yea, I've gone over this a million times - simple as this, though: Massa was NOT in the title race in 2010. You'd have to be incredibly foolish or a Massa fanboy to believe otherwise.


Less than a race behind someone who ended up losing it in the last race and got there leading is IN the title race for a fool, a fanboy, and everybody else.

#118 BillBald

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:49

And for the umpteenth time now it has been shown that Massa did NOT disintegrate after Germany, instead he performed slightly better than before. Strange how your kind keeps running away form that. Oh well, it's a fact, maybe you're not so fond of those.


Actually the car was more than slightly better in the 2nd half of 2010. I think you are well aware of that, but it doesn't suit your argument.



#119 Massa

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:54

Räikkönen did a rubbish first half of 2007 and won the WDC. Schumacher did a rubbish first half of 2003 and won the WDC. Schumacher did a rubbish first half of 2006 and nearly got it. Massa did a rubbish first part of 2008 and nearly got it.

There was nothing enough to justify the decission BEFORE it was taken. It was really unfair.

How many races Massa won at the start of the 2010 season ?
How many race he had won at the start of the 2008 season ?

The same for Raikkonen in. 2007, Schumacher 2006. And how many podium for all of them ? Massa was never in contention in 2010, never. Webber, Vettel, Hamilton, Button and even Rosberg was all better than him.

I don't know why you want to say that perhaps Massa could be in contention in 2010, its FALSE.

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#120 Kvothe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:55

Less than a race behind someone who ended up losing it in the last race and got there leading is IN the title race for a fool, a fanboy, and everybody else.


Indeed see my post:

Before Germany his lowest position based on performance was a ninth in China in a wet race, and a seventh in Turkey beating Alonso in the dry. He was able to match and beat Alonso on several occasions and the last three results make it look worse except:
The 15th in Canada down to him breaking his front wing in a first lap incident with a divebombing Liuzzi. He had qualifed seventh
The 11th in Valencia was down to the ill timed safety car and double stacking behind Alonso, up to that point he was running in fourth behind Alonso
The 15th place in Silverstone down to a puncture after a first lap incident with Alonso, after qualifying seventh but managing with a good start to get right behind him.

So in general considering the relative pace of all of the cars, his results performance wise weren't bad, and it was only three monumental examples of bad luck in the last three races which put him out of the championship contention.


Actually the car was more than slightly better in the 2nd half of 2010. I think you are well aware of that, but it doesn't suit your argument.


The Ferrari seemed to get better and better the more the year went on.

#121 as65p

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:55

Actually the car was more than slightly better in the 2nd half of 2010. I think you are well aware of that, but it doesn't suit your argument.


Wouldn't that also account for Alonsos better performances, instead of an imaginary boost due to becoming no.1? Hm? :lol:

#122 Kvothe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:59

Massa was nowhere close to Alonso in pure performance terms right through the whole season apart from the odd race here and there. The reason he was so close to Alonso and the others


Certainly it's just that none of those odd races were in the second half of the season after Hockenheim.

#123 hammibal

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:05

Räikkönen did a rubbish first half of 2007 and won the WDC. Schumacher did a rubbish first half of 2003 and won the WDC. Schumacher did a rubbish first half of 2006 and nearly got it. Massa did a rubbish first part of 2008 and nearly got it.

There was nothing enough to justify the decission BEFORE it was taken. It was really unfair.

Well in comparison to Massa in 2010 by the time of Germany Kimi had already won 3 races in 2007, Massa himself had also won 3 races in 2008, Schumacher in 2003 had won 4 races, so all were very much WDC contenders in the mid part of the season, Massa in 2010 was clearly not

#124 Seanspeed

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:05

Less than a race behind someone who ended up losing it in the last race and got there leading is IN the title race for a fool, a fanboy, and everybody else.

Everybody else has already explained how your position that Massa was in the title race is just seperate from reality.

#125 BillBald

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:06

Wouldn't that also account for Alonsos better performances, instead of an imaginary boost due to becoming no.1? Hm? :lol:


Well done for missing the point, and decorating it with a smilie.

Obviously the improvement to the car accounts for Alonso's better performances, but it also accounts for the fact that Massa seemed (going by the stats) to do slightly better than he had in the first half, and that is the 'fact' which you were trumpeting.

In reality, in the 2nd half of the season Massa was never anywhere near Alonso, whereas in the 1st half he'd been annoying him quite a lot.




#126 Ferrari2183

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:06

Downward trend in performance not results which tell some if not the full story.

Before Germany his lowest position based on performance was a ninth in China in a wet race, and a seventh in Turkey beating Alonso in the dry. He was able to match and beat Alonso on several occasions and the last three results make it look worse except:
The 15th in Canada down to him breaking his front wing in a first lap incident with a divebombing Liuzzi. He had qualifed seventh
The 11th in Valencia was down to the ill timed safety car and double stacking behind Alonso, up to that point he was running in fourth behind Alonso
The 15th place in Silverstone down to a puncture after a first lap incident with Alonso, after qualifying seventh but managing with a good start to get right behind him.

So in general considering the relative pace of all of the cars, his results performance wise weren't bad, and it was only three monumental examples of bad luck in the last three races which put him out of the championship contention.

I don't think we should include Germany in the results post Hockenheim (which is what I've said) for obvious reasons.

After he got a fourth in Spa thanks to two of the leaders crashing out one way or another. (Also he beat Alonso, but the latter struggled on a wet track during qualifying, got hit by Barichello, chose the wrong tyres and span out having a mare of a race).
Snagged third place with the fastest car at Monza, but was nowhere near the other two drivers.
Finished 8th in Singapore a track which he had almost won at in the past (nelson aside), compared to his team mate who won the race.
Retired in Japan.
Scored a lucky podium in Korea far behind the two leaders, and only because Vettel, Webber and Rosberg dnfd
and than had two abysmal races in Brazil and Abu Dhabi which would frame the rest of his career up to date.

Performance wise he was definitely on a downward trend, and the nightmare of Spa aside not once did he beat or outqualify Alonso again.

Massa was nowhere close to Alonso in pure performance terms right through the whole season apart from the odd race here and there. The reason he was so close to Alonso and the others points wise was because of numerous mistakes and strategy errors.

I like how you conveniently go through the whole season looking for reasons to support your theory but you're unable to do the same for Alonso. Take Australia for example, Alonso was dead last after turn 1 but was right on his gearbox by lap 16. In China Alonso had the jumped start which relegated him down the order but still finished ahead. Monaco, Alonso started last but was able to secure 6th as opposed to Massa's 4th. Malaysia, Alonso drove with a faulty gearbox.

I am happy to concede that Massa has been better than Alonso on occasion but to stretch the truth to it frequently happening in early 2010 is pushing it.

#127 Kvothe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:13

Massa was nowhere close to Alonso in pure performance terms right through the whole season apart from the odd race here and there. The reason he was so close to Alonso and the others points wise was because of numerous mistakes and strategy errors.

I like how you conveniently go through the whole season looking for reasons to support your theory but you're unable to do the same for Alonso. Take Australia for example, Alonso was dead last after turn 1 but was right on his gearbox by lap 16. In China Alonso had the jumped start which relegated him down the order but still finished ahead. Monaco, Alonso started last but was able to secure 6th as opposed to Massa's 4th. Malaysia, Alonso drove with a faulty gearbox.

I am happy to concede that Massa has been better than Alonso on occasion but to stretch the truth to it frequently happening in early 2010 is pushing it.


What are you referring to ?

I'm not stating Massa was beating or even matching Alonso in terms of performance.

Note the first line of my post:

Downward trend in performance not results which tell some if not the full story.


I'm stating that his overall level of performance went down after Hockenheim, relative to both Alonso and the rest of the field, where Ferrari appeared to be the second fastest car and noting that before while Massa did beat Alonso a couple of times, this never happened in the second part of the season.

P.S. No I didn't forget about examples such as Aus, but as I said to a65p Alonso may have been faster but Massa got ahead (due to a mistake by the former), successfully defended, and was able to put himself in a position to capitalise.

#128 MightyMoose

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:25

There's plenty of established posters here on this thread so I shouldn't have to repeat myself in asking you all to keep within the generous boundaries of the forum and refrain from attacking/responding directly to the poster.

On with the debate.

#129 Ferrari2183

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:28

What are you referring to ?

I'm not stating Massa was beating or even matching Alonso in terms of performance.

Note the first line of my post:


I'm stating that his overall level of performance went down after Hockenheim, relative to both Alonso and the rest of the field, where Ferrari appeared to be the second fastest car and noting that before while Massa did beat Alonso a couple of times, this never happened in the second part of the season.

P.S. No I didn't forget about examples such as Aus, but as I said to a65p Alonso may have been faster but Massa got ahead (due to a mistake by the former), successfully defended, and was able to put himself in a position to capitalise.

But there was actually an upward trend in performance. He beat Alono at Spa, wasn't too far off in Hungary and Monza.

#130 Kvothe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:28

There's plenty of established posters here on this thread so I shouldn't have to repeat myself in asking you all to keep within the generous boundaries of the forum and refrain from attacking/responding directly to the poster.

On with the debate.

:up:

#131 Skinnyguy

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:35

Everybody else has already explained how your position that Massa was in the title race is just seperate from reality.


Just as I´ve explained how similar Massa´s position was to Alonso´s. :rolleyes:

#132 Kvothe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:37

But there was actually an upward trend in performance. He beat Alono at Spa, wasn't too far off in Hungary and Monza.


First of all:

In Hungary he fell behind Hamilton, who retired with a hydraulics failure.

Monza the Ferrari was the fastest car but still finished quite a bit behind Button and Alonso despite the latter two fighting tooth and nail for most of the race.

All three races you've mentioned were directly after Hockenheim, and after a possible first in Germany, support the idea of a downward trend in performance.

Edited by Kvothe, 14 August 2012 - 21:45.


#133 Skinnyguy

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:44

I don´t buy for a moment that yielding in one race has affected Massa´s performance.

But the Hockenheim thing was just plain absurd. It wasn´t time to do that.

#134 Kvothe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:51

I don´t buy for a moment that yielding in one race has affected Massa´s performance.

But the Hockenheim thing was just plain absurd. It wasn´t time to do that.


Neither do I
it was a culmination of Alonso's mind games throughout the season that chipped away at him through the season
and the realisation that Alonso now had the team that had once been his fully behind him for the indefinite future.

You only have to realise the destabilising effect Button joining McLaren had on Hamilton's performance especially in 2011 when it seemed the team was moving away from him.

Read this by Darren Heath, a famous F1 photographer who also writes a blog:
http://www.darrenhea...g/stuck-reverse

From Turkey 2010

Good team spirit plays its part in cushioning the effects of failure on underachievers, but the Italian team seem bereft of good news in that department, too.

Perhaps the 2005/6 world champion is the problem?

The Spaniard appears to wear a constant hangdog expression, skulking around with a dark cloud overhead as he strives to evade the Italian media.

And imagine the toxic effect his never-ending mind games – so as to destabilise his nice-guy Brazilian team-mate – are having within the team.

An example: Friday afternoon, Felipe Massa runs wide out of Istanbul Park’s awesome Turn 8, looks in his mirrors and waits for the following car to pass before rejoining the track. It’s Alonso and he ain’t letting this chance for some Machiavellian behaviour pass him by. Slowing to a crawl, he pulls up alongside Massa, turns his head and stares at this team-mate, just to let him know…

Walk past the Ferrari garage during practice time and you’ll be sure to see the result of Fernando’s shenanigans. Felipe sits slouched and round-shouldered, with a downturned mouth, watching and waiting as his mechanics fettle his not-so-fast car, miserably contemplating the hell of it all.

Oh yes, something needs to change…


Edited by Kvothe, 14 August 2012 - 21:52.


#135 as65p

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:51

Well done for missing the point, and decorating it with a smilie.

Obviously the improvement to the car accounts for Alonso's better performances, but it also accounts for the fact that Massa seemed (going by the stats) to do slightly better than he had in the first half, and that is the 'fact' which you were trumpeting.

In reality, in the 2nd half of the season Massa was never anywhere near Alonso, whereas in the 1st half he'd been annoying him quite a lot.


So now it's "fact" vs. "reality"? Interesting concept, I have to say.

I'd, however, like to bother you a bit more with the former, if you don't mind.

- Massa was for most of Hungary 2 to 6 secs behind Alonso
- in Monza he contested the first few corners with FA than spend most of the time 2 to 6 secs behind Alonso
- Spa... has been outlined at length

So much for your "in the 2nd half of the season Massa was never anywhere near Alonso". Pesky facts, eh? :D

#136 hammibal

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:52

Well done for missing the point, and decorating it with a smilie.

Obviously the improvement to the car accounts for Alonso's better performances, but it also accounts for the fact that Massa seemed (going by the stats) to do slightly better than he had in the first half, and that is the 'fact' which you were trumpeting.

In reality, in the 2nd half of the season Massa was never anywhere near Alonso, whereas in the 1st half he'd been annoying him quite a lot.

It was only relatively close because of mistakes made by Alonso but not in terms of performance

Just as I´ve explained how similar Massa´s position was to Alonso´s. :rolleyes:

Position but not performance, Massa was never going to be a WDC contender given his level of performance in the first half of the season

#137 Kvothe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:55

So now it's "fact" vs. "reality"? Interesting concept, I have to say.

I'd, however, like to bother you a bit more with the former, if you don't mind.

- Massa was for most of Hungary 2 to 6 secs behind Alonso
- in Monza he contested the first few corners with FA than spend most of the time 2 to 6 secs behind Alonso
- Spa... has been outlined at length

So much for your "in the 2nd half of the season Massa was never anywhere near Alonso". Pesky facts, eh? :D


While Alonso was stuck behind a slower Button with diffuser damage?

#138 juandiego

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:57

DrF however raises a good point, I remember Alonso had a couple of chances to pass during the race but made mistakes and so was unable to capitalise.

Those weren't exactly mistakes, Kvothe, rather just failed attempts, and in one of them Alonso was close to get it but Massa defended his lead in a way you hardly see from him. By then, still with no overtaking aids, to materialize just a few tenths advantage per lap into an actual overtaking was extremely difficult if the driver in front didn't make, at least, a slight mistake.


In my opinion, the way Massa took the lead in turn 1 was exactly as illegal as —well, worse because Massa wasn't forced out by anyone— the pass Alonso did on Kubica in Silverstone that cost him a drive through penalty: by going out of track. Massa wasn't leading because of pure speed or something, but for some doubtful circumstances.

#139 ForeverF1

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 21:59

We seem to be getting far away from the premise of the thread. Your choice, back on topic or thread closure. You choose.

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#140 RealRacing

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 02:02

Basically you can take my replies to Billbald as responses to you as well. Of course we all can fantasize to our hearts contents, but why mix those fantasies with terms like "proof" or "evidence"?


Hmm ok, do me a favor then: take all the replies countering your argument and consider them a response to you as well.

Regarding proof, do we know FA has a No. 1 contract? No. Do we know he hasn't? No. Is it still possible to debate this? Yes?

Do we know HH affected Massa's performance? No. Do we know it didn't? No. Is it still possible to debate this? Yes?

Do we know if Ferrari's policy has affected their WCC chances? No...

You get the idea.

What was the name of this thing? Forum?


#141 HPT

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 03:16

Asking a driver not to risk an accident trying to overtake his team mate is not the same as telling him to get out the way.

We'll never know what the outcome in 2010 would have been if Massa had been allowed to race, possibly Fernando would have pushed harder to stay in front of Massa, who would have pushed harder to try to beat Alonso. Who can say. All we know is that Massa is just doing enough to earn his pay, what else does he have to drive for?


It's amazing how people still don't see the logic of having Massa yield to Alonso, who was Ferrari's only realistic shot at the WDC even though Massa wasn't mathematically out of it at Hockenheim.

It's true what you said, we'll never know the outcome of what would have happened if Massa were allowed to win that race. We also would never know if Massa would be leading the WDC this year if Domenicalli gave him a kiss and a hug before every race to reassure him of his speed. Just saying.

#142 Seanspeed

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 03:30

We also would never know if Massa would be leading the WDC this year if Domenicalli gave him a kiss and a hug before every race to reassure him of his speed. Just saying.

I'm pretty sure this is what the problem is. He isn't getting hugs and kisses before he goes out on-track.

Do we know for sure that his lack of hugs and kisses is what's causing his lack of competitiveness? No. But do we know that it isn't affecting him? No. Is it possible to discuss this? Yes.

#143 as65p

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 06:06

Hmm ok, do me a favor then: take all the replies countering your argument and consider them a response to you as well.

Regarding proof, do we know FA has a No. 1 contract? No. Do we know he hasn't? No. Is it still possible to debate this? Yes?

Do we know HH affected Massa's performance? No. Do we know it didn't? No. Is it still possible to debate this? Yes?

Do we know if Ferrari's policy has affected their WCC chances? No...

You get the idea.

What was the name of this thing? Forum?


Is conjecture a basis for a debate? No. Is everyone aware of that? No. Should the unaware be reminded? Yes?

You get the idea.

#144 Jovanotti

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 08:15

Read this by Darren Heath, a famous F1 photographer who also writes a blog:
http://www.darrenhea...g/stuck-reverse

[...]
An example: Friday afternoon, Felipe Massa runs wide out of Istanbul Park’s awesome Turn 8, looks in his mirrors and waits for the following car to pass before rejoining the track. It’s Alonso and he ain’t letting this chance for some Machiavellian behaviour pass him by. Slowing to a crawl, he pulls up alongside Massa, turns his head and stares at this team-mate, just to let him know…
[...]


From Turkey 2010

Wtf...

Edited by Jovanotti, 15 August 2012 - 08:15.


#145 DrF

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 08:37

It's true what you said, we'll never know the outcome of what would have happened if Massa were allowed to win that race. We also would never know if Massa would be leading the WDC this year if Domenicalli gave him a kiss and a hug before every race to reassure him of his speed. Just saying.

No need for hugs and kisses, jut something to race for. If you tell someone they are not allowed to race their team mate, then they race to fulfil the terms of their contract, nothing more.
In 2007 and 2008 Massa was driving for the WDC, right up until it was impossible for him to win. Result, WCC in both years and very nearly WDC in 2008. Now he's just fulfilling the terms of his contract. Yes, there are variables like his accident and the team not producing the cars that they used to, but there is definitely an air of defeat about Massa since being ordered aside in 2010. He had a chance of being WDC before, now he's just racing for money and there's a fundamental difference.

Any driver that Ferrari hire to replace Massa, no matter how good (and the really good ones won't) will have to accept that they have no chance of being WDC. Maybe they will be better than Massa, but they sure won't be driving like they would if they were gunning for the WDC.

#146 Ferrari2183

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 08:40

From Turkey 2010

Wtf...

That's the Darren Heath article published in 2010 that insinuates Alonso was responsible for the sour mood in the Ferrari garage. Later that year, he had nothing but praise for Alonso.

Reality is far too complex for most sportwriters. Darren Heath is no exception.

#147 as65p

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 08:40

While Alonso was stuck behind a slower Button with diffuser damage?


While Massa was stuck behind Alonso who was stuck behind Button, Massa kept the gap to Alonso at under two seconds for 18 laps, then at under 3 seconds for another 20 laps.

Plus the other two examples I gave. Hungary & above all, Spa.

Three examples based on numbers and lap charts vs. broad sweeping statements like...

In reality, in the 2nd half of the season Massa was never anywhere near Alonso...


Certainly it's just that none of those odd races [when Massa was close to Alonso in performance] were in the second half of the season after Hockenheim.


...based on what exactly? You tell me.

#148 prty

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 08:46

From Turkey 2010

Wtf...


Yeah, do we know that Alonso doesn't eat kids for breakfast? No. Do we know that he does? No. Is it possible to debate this? Yes?

:lol:


#149 as65p

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 08:46

No need for hugs and kisses, jut something to race for. If you tell someone they are not allowed to race their team mate, then they race to fulfil the terms of their contract, nothing more.

In 2007 and 2008 Massa was driving for the WDC, right up until it was impossible for him to win. Result, WCC in both years and very nearly WDC in 2008. Now he's just fulfilling the terms of his contract. Yes, there are variables like his accident and the team not producing the cars that they used to, but there is definitely an air of defeat about Massa since being ordered aside in 2010. He had a chance of being WDC before, now he's just racing for money and there's a fundamental difference.


So that's the only possible reaction of every human on earth? Or you're just sure it's Massas cause you know him so intimately?

Any driver that Ferrari hire to replace Massa, no matter how good (and the really good ones won't) will have to accept that they have no chance of being WDC. Maybe they will be better than Massa, but they sure won't be driving like they would if they were gunning for the WDC.


And you have authorithy on all that cause... ?

Ahh, nevermind. :drunk:


#150 bourbon

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 09:06

Sure, they are asking him to not help Alonso to win the WDC, to not help the team won the WCC, to not help the team to earn more money, and of course they are asking him to perform bad enough to get 25 points in 11 races.... :rolleyes:


Well of course they didn't ask him to do that. All they asked Massa to do is be a proper #2 driver to Alonso. What you see at every GP is Massa's interpretation of that order.


No need for hugs and kisses, jut something to race for. If you tell someone they are not allowed to race their team mate, then they race to fulfil the terms of their contract, nothing more.
In 2007 and 2008 Massa was driving for the WDC, right up until it was impossible for him to win. Result, WCC in both years and very nearly WDC in 2008. Now he's just fulfilling the terms of his contract. Yes, there are variables like his accident and the team not producing the cars that they used to, but there is definitely an air of defeat about Massa since being ordered aside in 2010. He had a chance of being WDC before, now he's just racing for money and there's a fundamental difference.

Any driver that Ferrari hire to replace Massa, no matter how good (and the really good ones won't) will have to accept that they have no chance of being WDC. Maybe they will be better than Massa, but they sure won't be driving like they would if they were gunning for the WDC.


Spot on. :up:

What's the point in pretending that this is some kind of first at Ferrari? As I see it, the #1 driver plan is only spectacular when the #1 is dominating the entire field - it is not sporting or good for the sport, but at least you are highlighting history. Here, we are merely feeding egos, imo...

Edited by bourbon, 15 August 2012 - 09:24.