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Ferrari & #1 status policy [split]


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#301 P123

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 17:36

People feel that Alonso has an "advantage" compare to his rivals whom have to fight harder and worry about the gap between them and their team mates. Races like Valencia 2011 or Monaco 2012 where ALO is ahead, doing his pace and is sure MAS just behind will not attack or undercut him are luxuries other drivers don't have.


He may never take points off Alonso (largely due to being slower) but he's also generally too far away in pace to help Alonso by taking points away from others, so there are disadvantages too. There is also only one driver (Alonso) pushing the team.

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#302 RedF1

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 17:58

For me, and maybe for some others more, its not really understandable why the 'massa cause supporters' keep concluding that its because of Ferraris policy to treat Alonso as no 1 driver and Massa as his second assistent, is creating all troubles and lack of speed for Felipe Massa.

My opinion is that he lost the inside long term fighting spirit because of a sum of events, decisions and insights he endured. While racing he is often unlucky, he often feels unlucky and he always look unhappy. But, lets not forget, he has a family of his own.... maybe the sparkling sadness in his eyes may come from the expectations he put upon himself to be a Worldchampion in Formula 1. He really would have wanted to show to the whole world, he Felipe Massa is a F1 Champion of the World with Ferrari. Even more would he have wanted to make his little kid proud of him..... Yes, this is a speculation of my mind, I think in the second part of 2010 he started to realize that he will probably not be able to win a championship for real, as he had to accept a much stronger teammate, stronger and cleverer as he might never be. Not being able to fulfil his dream, not for himself and not for his family... this has broken him... in racing.

But life is life and F1 is part of life. So get over it Felipe. Only few people become F1 Champions.... you are just not one of them. Accept it and deliver .....

As he doesnt deliver, all reasons to replace him are pointing in the right direction. He is paid a lot of money since many years now. Ferrari is his employer, he works for Ferrari. He must deliver... if he cant, no matter the reasons, he must be replaced by somebody who delivers.

IMO Felipe should dismiss himself during this summer break, anouning his retirement at the end of the season. I will respect him much more, if he is man enough to admit he is no more able to deliver and has find peace with it. His life is still in front of him... he as a nice and big family... a lot of cash and he is still young.

#303 Seanspeed

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 18:06

For me, and maybe for some others more, its not really understandable why the 'massa cause supporters' keep concluding that its because of Ferraris policy to treat Alonso as no 1 driver and Massa as his second assistent, is creating all troubles and lack of speed for Felipe Massa.

My opinion is that he lost the inside long term fighting spirit because of a sum of events, decisions and insights he endured. While racing he is often unlucky, he often feels unlucky and he always look unhappy. But, lets not forget, he has a family of his own.... maybe the sparkling sadness in his eyes may come from the expectations he put upon himself to be a Worldchampion in Formula 1. He really would have wanted to show to the whole world, he Felipe Massa is a F1 Champion of the World with Ferrari. Even more would he have wanted to make his little kid proud of him..... Yes, this is a speculation of my mind, I think in the second part of 2010 he started to realize that he will probably not be able to win a championship for real, as he had to accept a much stronger teammate, stronger and cleverer as he might never be. Not being able to fulfil his dream, not for himself and not for his family... this has broken him... in racing.

But life is life and F1 is part of life. So get over it Felipe. Only few people become F1 Champions.... you are just not one of them. Accept it and deliver .....

As he doesnt deliver, all reasons to replace him are pointing in the right direction. He is paid a lot of money since many years now. Ferrari is his employer, he works for Ferrari. He must deliver... if he cant, no matter the reasons, he must be replaced by somebody who delivers.

IMO Felipe should dismiss himself during this summer break, anouning his retirement at the end of the season. I will respect him much more, if he is man enough to admit he is no more able to deliver and has find peace with it. His life is still in front of him... he as a nice and big family... a lot of cash and he is still young.

I agree with most all of that, excluding the last comment that he should retire. He might benefit quite a bit just getting out of Ferrari and into a new team. Not because Ferrari is somehow hurting Felipe, but because a fresh start against a more 'manageable' teammate might do a wealth of good for the guy's confidence if thats indeed what he lacks at times.

#304 RedF1

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 18:10

I agree with most all of that, excluding the last comment that he should retire. He might benefit quite a bit just getting out of Ferrari and into a new team. Not because Ferrari is somehow hurting Felipe, but because a fresh start against a more 'manageable' teammate might do a wealth of good for the guy's confidence if thats indeed what he lacks at times.



You are right, yes he should look for a different team. Just consider he seems to say he would only drive for a top team... not for a midfield team... not sure, if any other topteam wants him for real! So whats the choice left, Ferrari or nothing?

Edited by RedF1, 16 August 2012 - 18:12.


#305 garoidb

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 18:23

I agree with most all of that, excluding the last comment that he should retire. He might benefit quite a bit just getting out of Ferrari and into a new team. Not because Ferrari is somehow hurting Felipe, but because a fresh start against a more 'manageable' teammate might do a wealth of good for the guy's confidence if thats indeed what he lacks at times.


I would like to see that too.

You are right, yes he should look for a different team. Just consider he seems to say he would only drive for a top team... not for a midfield team... not sure, if any other topteam wants him for real! So whats the choice left, Ferrari or nothing?


He probably needs to do what Heikki has done (although ideally with a midfield rather than backmarker team if possible). Then he can rebuild and be available if opportunity knocks. These days, many teams have the chance for the occasional podium or even win. If he holds out for a top five team, then he may not receive any offers.

Then again, I don't think it is impossible that he will get another year at Ferrari, and he is probably not going to do anything until that is finally decided.

#306 RealRacing

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 19:23

There is nothing to refute any more form that paragraph, now you pedalled back on the contract thing, and clearly labeled your opinion as what it is: a possibility. Keyword indeed. A lot is possible, and you obviously have every right of opinion. As long as you don't present them as facts, why would I object? Even if I'm not sharing your opinion, it's no problem.

Thanks! :)



Obviously they made Alonso no.1 at Hockenheim, has anyone disputed that? They made a decision involving a small risk (of Massa turning suddenly out better than Alonso). It turned out it was the right decision, and the risk never materialized. The outrage of rival fans / anti Ferrari fans and certain parts of press they can live with easily, I reckon. Notably they got almost no stick from rival teams and drivers over it, and for good reason. Bit unfortunate with the fine, but then again they spend so much money trying to boost their WDC chances on the technical side, I guess the cash for the fine was well invested achieving the same.



It was you who brought in mathematical possibilities (for Massa to become WDC). In strictly mathematical terms, Narain winning a race is possible too. Do you dispute that?

It's my opinion that Massas chances of winning a WDC driving alongside Alonso are close to zero, and I reckon their performances race by race strongly support that opinion. You won't dispute my right to that opinion, or to present it here, wouldn't you? :D


Dude, I did not stress the contract part, I said it might even be there, but it wasn't the main point. It's you who said that I did to focus on that. Never mind, regarding the contract, your assumption is as good as mine.

I guess the whole TO issue boils down to whether you agree with them or not. However, I think we do agree on the fact that they were one of the most embarassing TOs in the history of the sport. The video someone posted here of the press grilling FA (there's a part missing where they also grill Massa and Ferrari) is not an outrageous attack of THE BRITISH PRESS on a poor Spanish racer as they tried to portrait it. If you read the written transcript of the whole press conference, it's reporters from many countries who question them harshly. I believe they were, in general, mirroring the feelings of many fans.

Regarding the point re. Cucumber, well, there are mathematical and mathematical possibilities. I think you know Massa had a better chance than many are willing to admit.

Finally, don't try to turn the argument around on me again. It was you who censored any points against your reasoning. Isn't that a symptom of pre-conceived ideas?




#307 jj2728

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 19:27

I must be one of the few who thinks that Massa still has what it takes to return to winning ways. For a time I didn't, but upon reflection I gotta tip my hat to him. He's had 3 major (IMHO) occurences that more than tested his mettle. The season ending WDC lost at Brazil in 2008, his accident in 2009 and finally the team ordering him over at Hockenheim. He's pulled through these, it's shown me that he's made of some pretty tough stuff and has had his share of bad luck of late. But, IMHO, the speed is still there. Now, whether or not Ferrari feel the same is a different story altogether.

#308 P123

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 20:21

I must be one of the few who thinks that Massa still has what it takes to return to winning ways. For a time I didn't, but upon reflection I gotta tip my hat to him. He's had 3 major (IMHO) occurences that more than tested his mettle. The season ending WDC lost at Brazil in 2008, his accident in 2009 and finally the team ordering him over at Hockenheim. He's pulled through these, it's shown me that he's made of some pretty tough stuff and has had his share of bad luck of late. But, IMHO, the speed is still there. Now, whether or not Ferrari feel the same is a different story altogether.


He doesn't seem to be able to produce that speed every race, unlike '07 and '08. He was one tenth away from Alonso in Monaco, Valencia and Hungary qualifying. He has inished around approx 10s +/- a few secs from his teammate in 6 of the races this season. But he's almost as likely to finish 1s back in quali and over one minute behind in a race. Maybe a change of race engineer would help him.

#309 BillBald

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 20:35

Yes, because there is evidence to the contrary in Hungary, Spa and Monza. Unless you guys are of the the opinion that Massa miraculously started exhibiting delayed onset psychological battering.

I'm not even going to beat around bush and say maybe.


Why would that be miraculous? You seem to have a very simplistic view of human psychology.

And the "evidence to the contrary" is not all that strong.

Since then, we have had 2 years of evidence pointing to the effect on Massa of being made #2.






#310 Ferrari2183

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 20:50

Why would that be miraculous? You seem to have a very simplistic view of human psychology.

And the "evidence to the contrary" is not all that strong.

Since then, we have had 2 years of evidence pointing to the effect on Massa of being made #2.

Yeah like China 2011 when he was ahead and got preferred strategy. If he were number 2 Alonso would have been given the strategy. I don't know what you guys want to be honest.

#311 BillBald

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 21:05

Yeah like China 2011 when he was ahead and got preferred strategy. If he were number 2 Alonso would have been given the strategy. I don't know what you guys want to be honest.


There are basically 2 possibilities:

Either Massa has been made no. 2, and he has been badly affected by it,
or Massa just plain sucks (for whatever reason you might want to come up with).

Either way it's pretty strange that Ferrari haven't been able or willing to replace him.

Although part of the reason why they haven't replaced him, is perhaps because most drivers and their managers suspect that Ferrari are just looking for another no. 2.

You can argue as much as you like, but the conundrum won't go away.

Edited by BillBald, 16 August 2012 - 21:06.


#312 as65p

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 21:07

Dude, I did not stress the contract part, I said it might even be there, but it wasn't the main point. It's you who said that I did to focus on that. Never mind, regarding the contract, your assumption is as good as mine.


It would be, if I'd make one. But I don't. It's you who insists on speculating about stuff you got no knowledge or authority on, by your own admission.
By any means carry on with that if you must, just don't get annoyed when others point it out.

I guess the whole TO issue boils down to whether you agree with them or not. However, I think we do agree on the fact that they were one of the most embarassing TOs in the history of the sport. The video someone posted here of the press grilling FA (there's a part missing where they also grill Massa and Ferrari) is not an outrageous attack of THE BRITISH PRESS on a poor Spanish racer as they tried to portrait it. If you read the written transcript of the whole press conference, it's reporters from many countries who question them harshly. I believe they were, in general, mirroring the feelings of many fans.


Sure they were mirroring an unknown number of fans feelings, to various degrees. Equally sure there's an unknown number of fans objecting to the way those journos pretended to have learned about teamorders in F1 only that day in Hockenheim.

Regarding the point re. Cucumber, well, there are mathematical and mathematical possibilities. I think you know Massa had a better chance than many are willing to admit.


You think wrong about what I'm thinking. Instead I think Massas relative-to-Alonso performance was flattered for the first half of 2010 by Alonsos teething troubles and subsequent mistakes in a new team. Once Alonso had found his feet, the true gap in quality between him and Massa became apparent and has been ever since.

For Massa to have a shot at the 2010 title, two major changes from the actual events would have been needed: a) Alonso would have needed to perfom much worse than he actually did and b) the 2010 Ferrari would have needed to become half a tenth faster than the Red Bulls suddenly.
Even one of those two changes was always highly unlikely, let alone both occuring together. Therefore I think Massa's a chances for the WDC in 2010 were indeed comparable to the chances of Karthikeyan winning one of the remaining 2012 races.

Finally, don't try to turn the argument around on me again. It was you who censored any points against your reasoning. Isn't that a symptom of pre-conceived ideas?


Oh, but I will. That's the least you should expect, to be taken to task with the kind of reasoning you invented in the first place.

And quite obviously I didn't censor anything. Hm, maybe I should be flattered you seem to think I could... but trust me, I can't. AFAIC you're free to post what ever you feel like, anytime. Only that, as I already wrote above, you should be prepared for a bit of scrutinty over your theories. That's the way a forum works, you know. :wave:


#313 puxanando

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 21:10

Also in Schumi-times there were such discussion of #No.1 status in Ferrari? Only a question!

#314 as65p

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 21:10

You can argue as much as you like, but the conundrum won't go away.


:lol: Now please look in a mirror and repeat that loud. :D

#315 as65p

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 21:10

Also in Schumi-times there were such discussion of #No.1 status in Ferrari? Only a question!


Yes. Absolutely.

#316 as65p

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 21:13

He may never take points off Alonso (largely due to being slower) but he's also generally too far away in pace to help Alonso by taking points away from others, so there are disadvantages too. There is also only one driver (Alonso) pushing the team.


:up: Impressive, especially form someone who must surely wish Alonso was troubled by his teammate more.  ;)

#317 RedOne

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 21:16

This summer break has really let the dust settle and showed just how rattled people have got of our performance and to see us at the top, if Alonso becomes WDC this place is going to be in melt down over winter :clap:

Edited by RedOne, 16 August 2012 - 21:17.


#318 puxanando

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 21:23

...... if Alonso becomes WDC this place is going to be in melt down over winter :clap:


Would be more than nice! :smoking:


#319 BillBald

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 21:25

:lol: Now please look in a mirror and repeat that loud. :D


It's not me that's trying to deny that there is something strange about a top team running an underperforming driver for 3 seasons.

You are very good at debating, I'll give you that, but you don't have the power to change reality.

This question will continue to be raised as long as the situation persists.


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#320 Mauseri

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 21:30

Yeah like China 2011 when he was ahead and got preferred strategy. If he were number 2 Alonso would have been given the strategy. I don't know what you guys want to be honest.

Yeah. I think Ferrari is still trying to treat Massa well and softly, but it just does not help. Massa has mentally let Alonso take his neck and cannot perform anymore.

#321 as65p

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 21:39

It's not me that's trying to deny that there is something strange about a top team running an underperforming driver for 3 seasons.

You are very good at debating, I'll give you that, but you don't have the power to change reality.

This question will continue to be raised as long as the situation persists.


That I don't doubt. I'd even say if the situation changes, most of the people asking that question now will think really hard about coming up with another question that serves the same purpose: trying to denigrate Ferrari and/or Alonso cause they can't stand one or both. And with the new like with the then old question, there'll be no holding back on funny theories, plucked-out-of-thin-air assumptions and selling opinions as facts. Trust me. :)

About reality, it's not as one dimensional as you might think. What appears strange to you, others might find trivial, for example.  ;)

#322 as65p

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 21:49

Yeah. I think Ferrari is still trying to treat Massa well and softly, but it just does not help. Massa has mentally let Alonso take his neck and cannot perform anymore.


Frankly I view the situation as not that different to MS and RB, back in the day. My personally different view on it is that now I don't mind Ferrari's no.1 having an easy ride vs. his teammate whereas with MS I hated it. :blush:

But what's not changed is me not having much sympathies for the no.2's. They had and have every chance of standing up for themselves, either by fighting or leaving the team. If they stay, they got only themselves to blame, being treated for what they are.

There's even a nice overlap on this in the person of no other than Massa himself. Once he had volunteered to be MS' bitch in 2006, the game was set. A nice temporary dream that lasted 2 years during '08/'09 turned out nothing but a fluke. He's now again were he started at Ferrari.

#323 bourbon

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 22:16

The bolded parts are an obvious contradiction.


There is no contradiction at all. Ferrari has a #1 policy which Massa is attempting to adhere to, but doesn't like (obviously because it means he cannot go for the championship himself). I think that would hamper his performance, consciously and subconsciously. There is nothing contradictory in that at all.

I guess you're as aware as the next man that the probabilities of Massa consistently beating Alonso even with all the support in the world and every (hypothetic) double assurance that he wouldn't need to make way for Alonso, are practically non-existant.


Massa as he is performing circa 2010-2012 couldn't beat any driver in any top car on the grid. That says nothing at all about Alonso, imo, and everything about the #1 driver policy.

What I'm seeing isn't so much people caring for Massa or over fairness, but people being pi**ed that Massa isn't able to distract and take points from Alonso the way Webber does to Vettel or Button to Hamilton. That's the real underlying issue IMO. Well, it's Vettels and Hamiltons job to spank their teammates as bad and as consistently as Alonso does to Massa. Vettel did manage last year but not this year, but surprise, that's neither Alonsos nor Ferraris fault.


I feel that is dismissive of my opinion. The fact is, there are people, including myself, with very strong opinions about Ferrari's #1 policy and we've held those views long before Alonso and Massa entered the picture at Ferrari. Some people are all for it - others are all against it, and that is just the way it is.

The bolded makes no sense. We have already seen Massa both out-qualify Alonso and out-race him. What your statement implies is that should Ferrari believe that Massa will out-qualify/out-race Alonso on a given day, they reign him in because his performance is not supposed to exceed Alonso's. I'm sorry Ferrari won't shoot themselves in the foot like that and it is a rather ridiculous notion to entertain.


I did not suggest Ferrari "reins Massa in". Just the opposite in fact; I made it clear that it is my belief that Massa is in complete control of his destiny out on the track. What I feel we are seeing is his interpretation of Ferrari's #1 policy.

I have already pointed out that Massa was nowhere near Alonso in terms of performance in early 2010 apart from the first 2 races. He found himself ahead due to Alonso's mistakes and was often caught and passed despite all this. Ferrari quickly putting a lid on Massa once his mojo came back is quite laughable.


So we can agree to disagree on that.

This whole argument boils down to people's belief that Alonso cannot face a competitive teammate due to what happened in 2007. Well, I have news for you. He did go up against a competitive teammate and he certainly didn't embarrass himself in terms of performance. His antics in the garage didn't leave a lot to be desired but then again neither did Hamilton's. People really need to let that one go.


I feel that is dismissive of my opinion. I have held my opinion about Ferrari's #1 policy for over a decade - and it in no way applies exclusively to Alonso.

Edited by bourbon, 16 August 2012 - 22:27.


#324 Suntrek

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 22:35

Fernando Alonso faces test threatening Ferrari harmony
At Indianapolis in 2006 he was at odds with his Renault team when team-mate Giancarlo Fisichella was running ahead of him, insiders telling of him screaming over the radio to move 'Fisi' aside.

An almost identical situation arose a year later at the same venue, with McLaren when Lewis Hamilton was running ahead of him and Alonso felt he was being held up.
In between times, he was publically critical of Renault in the aftermath of China 2006 when the team did not prevent Fisichella from taking advantage of Alonso's tyre problems.

He made a now infamous speech in which he talked of "feeling alone" in the team. Whereas the Indianapolis '06 incident had been contained within Renault at the time, this was the first public appearance of a previously unsuspected chink in the champion's armour.

It was a chink that was prised open at McLaren by Hamilton's speed.

Alonso's failure to gel at McLaren, and his ill-judged attempts at using the team's difficulty with governing body the FIA as 'spy-gate' unfolded to get internal championship priority, led to him being dropped after just one year of what was originally a long-term contract.

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8593478.stm

It's a 2010 article.

I have been following ALO career even if I am not one of his fans. I know he prefers absolute #1 policy.Before we had Fisichella(who won the first race in 2005 and then was nowhere or was fast if asked by Briatore like in China 2006 to beat MSC who was ALO rival for the WDC), Grosjean, Piquet. And now MAS.
All drivers people like to call mediocre, but we should start to ask how is like to work with ALO in his team.


I want to have some of what that journo is smoking. Mark Hughes, right?

In Indianapolis 2006 it was Alonso who was aske to move aside for Fisi, since Fisi was faster. Which Alonso also did. And Fisi subsequently finished in front of him. Feel free to check the results. So I'd say the whole argument this article is based upon sort of falls. I don't like the expression "epic fail" but this time it's relevant. :lol:

#325 as65p

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 22:47

There is no contradiction at all. Ferrari has a #1 policy which Massa is attempting to adhere to, but doesn't like (obviously because it means he cannot go for the championship himself). I think that would hamper his performance, consciously and subconsciously. There is nothing contradictory in that at all.


Well...

I don't think it harms him at all.

I think on the whole, his conflicting emotions hamper his performance, both consciously and subconciously.


... if you think there's no contradiction, one of us speaks something else than english.

Massa as he is performing circa 2010-2012 couldn't beat any driver in any top car on the grid. That says nothing at all about Alonso, imo, and everything about the #1 driver policy.


That appears to be your issue. You can't fathom Alonso being as good as he looks vs. Massa, so you simply assume the reason must be something else. It still remains an assumption, without any proof whatsoever. Neither for the first nor for the 2nd sentence in that paragraph.

However, I'd consider the possibility that Massa can, in terms of pure performance, do better than he currently does. But pure perfomance is just one little snippet in the arsenal of a top driver. If (hypothetically) playing 2nd fiddle to Alonso affects Massa so much that he drives miles below his potential, that in itself is a weakness which disqualifies him from ever being Alonsos equal.

I feel that is very dismissive. The fact is, there are people with strong opinions about Ferrari's #1 policy and they held those views long before Alonso and Massa entered the picture at Ferrari.


Yeah, sorry. Only that just a paragraph above you again posted something that enforces my belief I'm right over this. You simply dismiss one possibility that doesn't suit you (i.e. Alonso being per se much better than Massa) to strongly push another one that hasn't any higher probabilities, at best, i.e. Massa being somehow... (violins).... deeply psychologically wounded in a way that still allows him to be a very competent racing driver but costs him around half a second a lap, sometimes more, which makes him look bad against his teammate. Yeah... :p

#326 discover23

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 00:53

Hold on, wans't Massa's lack of performance as a result of his accident? That doesn't apply anymore ? Wait! What's going on?. You are telling me those were all lies and Massa still has the speed to match Alonso but is the team that is holding him back.
People please make up your mind and stick to one theory.. You start losing some credibility if you start jumping back and forth about possible reasons why Alonso is wiping the floor with Massa..
Just saying.. :cool:

Edited by discover23, 17 August 2012 - 00:54.


#327 HPT

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:47

I think what a lot of people are ignoring is that if you were watching the sport, not just reading Wikipedia pages on the results/points situation, you could see that it was gonna be Alonso, not Massa, who took up any championship challenge if it was gonna be possible at all. Both had their share of bad luck, but Alonso was more often than not, the clear better performer on-track.

And its also important to note the series of events that lead to Hockenheim, not just the points situation in Hockenheim itself:

First off, Ferrari had a slump after the first several races. They started as clear 2nd best car, but Mclaren seemed to overhaul them quite quickly for that spot. It really wasn't until Valencia that Ferrari started to gain ground back(Monaco and Canada being unique and hard to judge as 'representative' tracks). As a Ferrari fan, or anybody who was looking after Ferrari's interests, it was a positive first couple days of the weekend. But then the race turned into a disaster for the team, completely ruining any chances the team had at actually using their newfound performance for any good. So thats just one race, ok, we could get over that. So Silverstone rolls along and yet again, the car proves competitive and there were reasons to be positive about Ferrari's chances in general(and not just at this race). And yet again, the race proves to be a disaster, results-wise. So at this point, all the hard work and effort Ferrari had gone through to get competitive again was going to waste. What did not look so bad, points-wise, just a few races ago, was now turning into something that most people thought was a hopeless cause. Alonso was 50 points behind in the standings, Massa 70+. Alonso said he could still fight for the championship, people laughed, and nobody gave a second thought about Massa having a chance, cuz frankly, that would be far more outrageous considering that if Alonso was a far-fetched WDC prospect, what would that make Felipe, who wasn't driving as well as Alonso and was a further 20+ points off the leader?

So Hockenheim rolls around and for the first time since 2008, Ferrari found themselves with the best car on the grid. I feel its also worth noting that Alonso had been clearly quicker all throughout the weekend prior to Sunday and had outqualified Felipe by half a second(although himself just missing pole due to a brilliant lap by Vettel). So the race comes around, and this is truly a make-or-break affair for Ferrari. They cannot afford to have another bad race, especially when they find themselves with the fastest car. Vettel squeezes Alonso, allowing Massa to get by at the 1st corner but Alonso still managing to stay ahead of Vettel. The two Ferrari's break off into the distance for now and its Alonso vs Massa. We all know that Massa isn't the most predictable driver to overtake. Sometimes he'll leave a door wide open, sometimes, he'll race you like y'all are in tin-tops. So Alonso attacks once. Doesn't quite come off as Massa defends hard. As somebody who cares about Ferrari, this was pretty nerve-wracking, especially after what happened with the Red Bulls in Turkey. If they crashed into each other, it would not only mean they were a complete laughing stock, having 3 disaster races in a row culminating in them throwing away an easy 1-2 with the best cars on the grid, but they could kiss any championship hopes goodbye. So was it really wise to have Alonso attacking Felipe? I know people want to see racing and no doubt team orders would take some entertainment out of the race, but if you put yourselves in Ferrari's shoes, or the shoes of anyone that has an interest in seeing Ferrari do well, having Alonso overtake Massa on-track was a scary proposition. Remember this was before DRS or the Pirelli tires or anything like that. Overtaking was more difficult in 2010. So Ferrari made a difficult decision and wanted to see Massa let Alonso by without having to risk both their cars. It ensures them the safe 1-2 they wanted, and it meant just possibly bringing Alonso in with a glimmer of hope for the title.

Looking at the entire picture, I find it hard to say the team orders weren't justified. The situation wasn't handled well within the team, whether you want to blame management or Felipe's side of the garage or Alonso getting upset over the radio, which I think is what caused the biggest stink by fans and the media, but the actual switching of the drivers seemed ethical enough to me if you cared at all about Ferrari doing well in the championship, which Ferrari themselves certainly do. It probably wasn't the way they wanted things to happen either, but they did what they thought was best for themselves and its hard to deny that it was the right decision in hind-sight.


Excellent post :up:


#328 HPT

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:58

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8593478.stm

It's a 2010 article.

I have been following ALO career even if I am not one of his fans. I know he prefers absolute #1 policy.Before we had Fisichella(who won the first race in 2005 and then was nowhere or was fast if asked by Briatore like in China 2006 to beat MSC who was ALO rival for the WDC), Grosjean, Piquet. And now MAS.
All drivers people like to call mediocre, but we should start to ask how is like to work with ALO in his team.


Statements like these make me think you didn't watch the race and simply looked at the results in Wikipedia. Fisi won the race because in the days of single-lap aggregate qualifying over Friday and Saturday (remember that?) he was the only one who went out when the track was dry and got a time a whopping 2 seconds quicker than the next guy on Friday. No one could have done anything about his time on Saturday. Then he went on to win the race from pole because Renault was the fastest car in the first few races before McLaren took over starting from the European leg.

#329 Sakae

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:27

... Alonso is wiping the floor with Massa..

Perhaps more interesting question is why FM is not having more WDC points to his credit? I have a lot of difficulty to believe that he forgot how to drive what is currently one of the competitive cars on the grid.


#330 bourbon

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:03

Well...

QUOTE (bourbon @ Aug 16 2012, 08:09)
1) I don't think it harms him at all.

2) I think on the whole, his conflicting emotions hamper his performance, both consciously and subconciously.


... if you think there's no contradiction, one of us speaks something else than english.


The issues we were discussing were:

1) Massa being Harmed by FERRARI, due to its policy. I do not believe Ferrari is harming Massa at all because I feel he has agreed to adhere to the policy. Massa cannot cry foul or claim he is being harmed by something he has agreed to.

2) Although I believe Massa has agreed to the terms of the #1 policy, I do not believe he likes it. I believe that his conflicting emotions (wants to adhere to the policy for the benefit v. wants to win a championship) would cause him some mental strain/tension and probably hamper his performance at times. In this case MASSA is harming himself. Ferrari did not force him to agree; he chose to remain in the situation and one cannot blame Ferrari for the harm Massa feels.

So no, Ferrari is not harming Massa, but yeah, Massa probably brought on a bit of pain for himself by accepting the supportive driving role (imo).

That appears to be your issue. You can't fathom Alonso being as good as he looks vs. Massa, so you simply assume the reason must be something else. It still remains an assumption, without any proof whatsoever. Neither for the first nor for the 2nd sentence in that paragraph.


Nah. For me it is about the policy. I don't like it.

However, I'd consider the possibility that Massa can, in terms of pure performance, do better than he currently does. But pure perfomance is just one little snippet in the arsenal of a top driver. If (hypothetically) playing 2nd fiddle to Alonso affects Massa so much that he drives miles below his potential, that in itself is a weakness which disqualifies him from ever being Alonsos equal.


Sure.

Yeah, sorry. Only that just a paragraph above you again posted something that enforces my belief I'm right over this. You simply dismiss one possibility that doesn't suit you (i.e. Alonso being per se much better than Massa)


I am not dismissing that possibility. I disagree with it.

to strongly push another one that hasn't any higher probabilities, at best, i.e. Massa being somehow... (violins).... deeply psychologically wounded in a way that still allows him to be a very competent racing driver but costs him around half a second a lap, sometimes more, which makes him look bad against his teammate. Yeah... :p


Well it feels like we are starting to go around in circles. I suppose we have to just agree to disagree.

#331 revlec

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:06

Statements like these make me think you didn't watch the race and simply looked at the results in Wikipedia. Fisi won the race because in the days of single-lap aggregate qualifying over Friday and Saturday (remember that?) he was the only one who went out when the track was dry and got a time a whopping 2 seconds quicker than the next guy on Friday. No one could have done anything about his time on Saturday. Then he went on to win the race from pole because Renault was the fastest car in the first few races before McLaren took over starting from the European leg.


Yup.. I know nothing :up:
I was already in Italy during the first 2005 races and some questions have been asked to Briatore(not on the BBC or ITV but Italian channel) about Fisichella issues during that season.
Do you remember how many issues Fisichella had during that season(I'm not only talking about DNFs)?. anyway you can still use google(if you speak Italian) and you will see few articles and questions here and there.

__

My point is Fisichella, Piquet Jr., Grosjean, and now Massa could not drive the same car. How is that?
How is it possible that the Grosjean we see today in Lotus could not drive like this in 2009?

Edited by revlec, 17 August 2012 - 10:12.


#332 Gareth

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:18

I think it's pretty obvious (post crashgate, which was the final nail in that coffin) that Briatore ran Renault in a, erm, shall we say "particular" way.

It seems a stretch to me to impute that same behaviour to Ferrari, who (IMO) have a very professional management team, purely because of the presence of Alonso.

#333 discover23

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:18

Perhaps more interesting question is why FM is not having more WDC points to his credit? I have a lot of difficulty to believe that he forgot how to drive what is currently one of the competitive cars on the grid.

The poor results are because, haven't you noticed that he is very rarely having clean races. First lap incidents and spinning in Canada from a great starting position does not help - he did the same in Malaysia 08.
This year the performance of the top 5-6 cars is very close compared to prior years, simply watch live timing and you will see in lap times how close these cars really are. If you find yourself at the back it will be much harder for any car to easily make it to the front - it has happened to Webber several times. The driver than can do that are simply better drivers than the drivers around them - Alonso being one of them. It has been said many times this season thay this year driver skill will make a bigger impact to the results in the races because the cars are so close and that is what we are seeing.

#334 Konsta

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:35

The poor results are because, haven't you noticed that he is very rarely having clean races. First lap incidents and spinning in Canada from a great starting position does not help - he did the same in Malaysia 08.
This year the performance of the top 5-6 cars is very close compared to prior years, simply watch live timing and you will see in lap times how close these cars really are. If you find yourself at the back it will be much harder for any car to easily make it to the front - it has happened to Webber several times. The driver than can do that are simply better drivers than the drivers around them - Alonso being one of them. It has been said many times this season thay this year driver skill will make a bigger impact to the results in the races because the cars are so close and that is what we are seeing.

So many words and it can be summed up to: The grid is close and it separates those who have racecraft and those who don´t. Felipe does not.

#335 Ferrari2183

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:36

The poor results are because, haven't you noticed that he is very rarely having clean races. First lap incidents and spinning in Canada from a great starting position does not help - he did the same in Malaysia 08.
This year the performance of the top 5-6 cars is very close compared to prior years, simply watch live timing and you will see in lap times how close these cars really are. If you find yourself at the back it will be much harder for any car to easily make it to the front - it has happened to Webber several times. The driver than can do that are simply better drivers than the drivers around them - Alonso being one of them. It has been said many times this season thay this year driver skill will make a bigger impact to the results in the races because the cars are so close and that is what we are seeing.

Thanks for bringing this up. It has played a huge part in me not being overly critical of Massa this year.

As the car has improved, his performance relative to Alonso has improved substantially. Particularly in the races where his lap times have often matched Alonso's when he has been in clear air. I would certainly like to see what Massa is capable of given a clean weekend where he qualifies in let's say the top 5 and has a incident free first few laps.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 17 August 2012 - 11:37.


#336 Kvothe

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:20

I think having such a bad performance compare to your team mate may have had in itself a compounding negative effect. Domenicalli mentioned something to that effect. He said Massa had to forget about Alonso and focus on driving the best he knew. Everyone in Ferrari has been trying to help him. I don't understand why people keeps thinking these policies are there to hurt him or to hurt the team. You may agree or not with them, but Ferrari has them because it works for the team. I don't remember any other team giving so many chances to a driver and still getting a lot of flak for it. It is ridiculous.


Lee I also made mention of the fact that I think Massa's performance is in part down to the pressure of Alonso's excellent performances and victories in comparison to his own, I just believe that the events of Hockeheim and Ferrari getting behind Alonso also had an impact.

#337 Kvothe

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:38

Yes, you keep saying a downward trend from Hockenheim on, but you're ignoring that actual downward trend did not start til 4-5 races after Hockenheim in which case its hard to point at Hockenheim as the singular event that caused it.

For Hungary, Lewis being faster than Felipe in a slightly slower car isn't a surprise. Lewis is a very good driver, I'm sure you'll agree. This is nothing different than what had been happening before, even before 2010. You CANNOT say that he was off-form there or that he 'lost anything'. Downward trend did not start in Hungary.

Your points about Spa are only relevant if you can say for sure that Alonso would have won or something if not for his setup gamble or something. Otherwise, Felipe's performance that weekend looked perfectly adequate to me.

In Monza, the most you can say is that things were very close between Mclaren and Ferrari. Mclaren brought two packages, BOTH optimized for Monza, but both taking very different approaches. And Alonso qualifying ahead of Button means the Ferrari is faster? That couldn't have just been Alonso being a very quick guy, which we all know he is? He barely got pole, too, if you remember. Difference was like a tenth of a second. Oh lord, look at all that proof! No way could he have been a tenth faster than Button in an equal car.... C'mon now. Either way, Massa put in one of his best performances of the year. Wasn't his best, result-wise, but individually, he was competitive all weekend and hung right there with the front-runners. So, if anything, the trend was looking a little up at this point!

Its not that we dont 'want' to acknowledge that Hockenheim affected Massa, its just that the evidence isn't really there to suggest it did.

Its speculation at most, but I think if anything affected Massa negatively, it was his own realization that he simply wasn't as good as Alonso. He spent a few years in the limelight looking mighty good against Kimi but then when faced with an opponent more akin to a prime Schumacher, he fell short again. That was probably hard to take. But he's played the no.2 role before. With Schumi and then at the end of 2007 with Kimi. He even had no.1 status for a fair amount of time in 2008. So its not like he was a stranger to these sorts of things happening. In 2010, he was somewhat close to Alonso on occasion and spent a large part of the year chalking it up to tires and how things would be different in 2011. Well, when 2011 rolled around and he proved similarly weak against his partner even with the new tires, THIS is when I think he might have getting properly discouraged. Cuz he had no excuses left. <---All speculation, though, again. I'm not saying this what I definitely believe, I just think its more plausible than Hockenheim somehow 'breaking him' or however else people want to spin it.


No what I'm suggesting is that the downward trend in performance was masked by factors including, a crazy race at Spa and the fastest car (particularly after Button's diffuser damage) at Monza, His result in Hungary performance wise was perfectly equivalent to the start of a downward trend, and I never specified how steep the downward curve would be. The fact that he maintained some form and than abruptly tapered off changes nothing, especially if one is aware of what a slow burn reaction is.

As I said to Lee in which I made reference to this:


I also believe that Ferrari now operate a no 1 drivers policy, alluded to by there statement (I'll find the link possibly from the horse whisperer) about wanting to employ one main driver and a younger driver to complement him, and that Hamilton specifically wouldn't fit into this model, and that this along with the pressure put on by Alonso's excellent performances and his politics have done much to negatively impact upon Massa's confidence, and consequently his driving.


I do accept that in some ways it is also Alonso's performances and the pressure put on which has contributed to Massa's lack of form (similar to Heikki in 09) however I also think they're are other contributing factors and I think Hockenheim is one of them. It was visibly clear to see just how upset Massa was that he was asked to move over on the anniversary of his almost fatal accident in front of his team, was it the right thing to do? Yes, however I don't see how one could't foresee some other impact on Massa, especially because in the past (barring Schumacher) Ferrari team orders had always come near the end of a season when one driver (Kimi or Massa) was mathematically, or as close to being, out.

Of course I can provide no evidence to support this, however no one can provide evidence to argue against it effectively leaving us all stymied.

#338 discover23

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:51

So many words and it can be summed up to: The grid is close and it separates those who have racecraft and those who don´t. Felipe does not.

I would not say that Massa does not have racecraft, he is simply being outraced by other drivers in similar cars.

Edited by discover23, 17 August 2012 - 12:58.


#339 Suntrek

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 13:54

My point is Fisichella, Piquet Jr., Grosjean, and now Massa could not drive the same car. How is that?
How is it possible that the Grosjean we see today in Lotus could not drive like this in 2009?


You might as well ask yourself why Fisi couldn't perform at the same level - when he was thrown into the deep end at Ferrari - as he did in Force India. Or even compared to how he performed in the Renault. But we can safely put that discusssion under the carpet because it doesn't fit you agenda. Alonso wasn't in any way involved. (oh crap...)

Edited by Suntrek, 17 August 2012 - 14:00.


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#340 Seanspeed

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 14:36

Of course I can provide no evidence to support this, however no one can provide evidence to argue against it effectively leaving us all stymied.

I'd say there's a good amount of evidence to argue against it in this very thread alone.

And the burden of proof is on you. That we cant effectively(in your eyes) dismantle your opinion does not strengthen your position in the least.

You really just have to kind of admit that you're just going off of gut feeling more than anything.

#341 Fontainebleau

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 18:12

Yup.. I know nothing :up:
I was already in Italy during the first 2005 races and some questions have been asked to Briatore(not on the BBC or ITV but Italian channel) about Fisichella issues during that season.
Do you remember how many issues Fisichella had during that season(I'm not only talking about DNFs)?. anyway you can still use google(if you speak Italian) and you will see few articles and questions here and there.

__

My point is Fisichella, Piquet Jr., Grosjean, and now Massa could not drive the same car. How is that?
How is it possible that the Grosjean we see today in Lotus could not drive like this in 2009?

Do you remember the R29? One of the most difficult cars to drive I have seen while following F1, nothing to do with a Lotus that looks easy and tamed. As for Fisichella, he didn't do badly with Renault - he started by winning in Australia, if I am not mistaken -; he was plagued by bad luck, ¿or are you suggesting sabotage?

In any case, let me ask you a question: have you considered the possibility that Alonso is simply far better than those drivers you mentioned? Not that they did poorly, only that they were compared to somebody who was on a different level.

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8593478.stm

It's a 2010 article.

I have been following ALO career even if I am not one of his fans. I know he prefers absolute #1 policy.Before we had Fisichella(who won the first race in 2005 and then was nowhere or was fast if asked by Briatore like in China 2006 to beat MSC who was ALO rival for the WDC), Grosjean, Piquet. And now MAS.
All drivers people like to call mediocre, but we should start to ask how is like to work with ALO in his team.

Alonso said once that he was a bit tired of people trying to put him down by attacking his teammates. Nobody called Fisichella "mediocre" before he joined Renault, and Massa was a competitor for WDC who beat Raikkonen (who is no slouch himself) while both were at Ferrari. Piquet and Grosjean were new to F1, so it was easier to dismiss them as useless that to assume that they were doing OK in a poor car, while Alonso was doing great.

If you want to know how it is like to work with Alonso in his team, just ask his former teammates: I think that you will find out that they all have a good relationship with the Spaniard, which somehow negates the image of Alonso-as-devil-in-disguise some press likes to present.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 17 August 2012 - 18:25.


#342 fabr68

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 20:09

There's even a nice overlap on this in the person of no other than Massa himself. Once he had volunteered to be MS' bitch in 2006, the game was set. A nice temporary dream that lasted 2 years during '08/'09 turned out nothing but a fluke. He's now again were he started at Ferrari.


People seem to forget that when Massa was hired, he was the official No. 2 driver. He did everything to support MS and never had a mental performance breakdown when asked to do so.

If you compare the 2006 Massa vs the 2012 Massa you will find that the car and not the driver has the biggest performance deficiency.

In 2006 Massa made a few mistakes and crashed the car here and there too. The difference was when he was able to get pole he ran away with the race win. In 2012, the highest qualifying position in the dry has been 3rd. If you compare averages between 2006 and 2012, the qualifying performance between cars in the dry is abysmal.

#343 Mauseri

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 22:36

(as65p @ Aug 16 2012, 21:49) *
There's even a nice overlap on this in the person of no other than Massa himself. Once he had volunteered to be MS' bitch in 2006, the game was set. A nice temporary dream that lasted 2 years during '08/'09 turned out nothing but a fluke. He's now again were he started at Ferrari.

I dont remember Massa being asked to do favors for MS. He was kind of treated better than RB, as their own boy. Given low fuel loads to qualify up front near/in front of MS etc...

Years have shown what I always said from the beginning, that Massa is not a top driver but rather an also ran. Kudos for him doing well against JV and Kimi, but this would not happen without the fuel ruined qualify which gave him the chance to start higher than he deserved. Starting behind and driving in the pack, he hardly produced many memorable races.

Compared for example with Kimi, who can work his way in the races, despite of not being the greatest qualifier maybe.

Edited by Mauseri, 17 August 2012 - 22:39.


#344 as65p

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 22:53

I dont remember Massa being asked to do favors for MS.


Watch Germany and Suzuka again, and listen to Massas radio after he just won Turkey ("I'm so sorry for Michale, so sorry...").

The difference, as someone has pointed out already, appears to be that Massa in that his first season was brought in as no.2 and fully accepted his role. Then over the winter '06/'07 he already made noises "I won't move aside for Kimi", the article is in the Autosport news archive.

He was kind of treated better than RB, as their own boy. Given low fuel loads to qualify up front near/in front of MS etc...

Years have shown what I always said from the beginning, that Massa is not a top driver but rather an also ran. Kudos for him doing well against JV and Kimi, but this would not happen without the fuel ruined qualify which gave him the chance to start higher than he deserved. Starting behind and driving in the pack, he hardly produced many memorable races.

Compared for example with Kimi, who can work his way in the races, despite of not being the greatest qualifier maybe.


I agree that Massa is a level below the very top, and has deficits compared to the Kimi up to 2007 and this season. However, Massa beating KR for 1.5 years in '08/'09 was for real, there may be explanations why it happened but no valid excuses for KR, IMO. It DID happen, no way around it. If the same would happen now with Alonso, be it only for 3 or 4 races instead of one and a half seasons, we would never hear the end of it. Heck, I'm sure even if Massa managed to genuinely beat for one single race there would be hundreths of posts and multiple threads about it. :D

#345 prty

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 23:28

My opinion about all this:

Massa has never been a great driver. Maybe competent but erratic. It was already visible in his Sauber days. But because his manager being who he is, he stayed in F1, and with Barrichello gone, he got a Ferrari drive.

He drove with Schumacher, and it was clear to him that he would be in a support role, as he wouldn't be, at least from the beginning, as good as Schumacher. Therefore had no pressure. Because of some Schumacher problems late in 2006, he got the illusion that he was really close to him, also with all the press saying how good of a learner he was (I think his "try to learn!" to Alonso in Nurburgring 2007 was him bragging about that to some extent) but actually he wasn't that close.

Then Schumacher retired, Raikkonen came, and this time he shouldn't be a support driver because Schumacher was gone. Raikkonen couldn't adapt to Ferrari, and he didn't perform at his peak. Massa had no pressure and started to work really hard, as he wanted to pick up where he thought he left with Schumacher. So Massa eventually beat him, and the press hyped. So at this point, in his mind, he ended on par with the most successful ever F1 driver, and beat a very high reputation driver.

Then he knew Alonso would be his team mate. Alonso, who spent the last few years in the midfield, who "threw his toys out of the pram ©" in 2007 only because he had a competitive team mate, who made poor Piquet crash for him in 2008, who never had a competitive team mate... so after having done so good against Schumacher and Raikkonen, all he had to do is put a little pressure on him, and he would "throw his toys out of the pram ©".

Then comes Bahrain 2010, and outqualifies Alonso, aha! Just like Hamilton in Australia 2007, this bodes well. However, Ron Dennis wasn't at Ferrari, and Alonso instead didn't reveal a hint of frustration, and even with his mistakes in the first half of the season, he made clear that he was driving better, as he was, and the team was also behind him. So maybe Massa, being the very nice guy to the Ferrari boys for several years, was starting to be a little unsure and in denial of his position on how good he was and how the team sees him. Then Hockenheim 2010 came, and reality hit him hard, it was a confirmation of what he feared the most, but didn't want to look at. But it's not Alonso's or Ferrari's fault, it's just that Massa was too arrogant. And he couldn't hide behind anything now. And no, not the accident, as he himself said.

Edited by prty, 17 August 2012 - 23:39.


#346 garoidb

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 23:56

My opinion about all this:

Massa has never been a great driver. Maybe competent but erratic. It was already visible in his Sauber days. But because his manager being who he is, he stayed in F1, and with Barrichello gone, he got a Ferrari drive.

He drove with Schumacher, and it was clear to him that he would be in a support role, as he wouldn't be, at least from the beginning, as good as Schumacher. Therefore had no pressure. Because of some Schumacher problems late in 2006, he got the illusion that he was really close to him, also with all the press saying how good of a learner he was (I think his "try to learn!" to Alonso in Nurburgring 2007 was him bragging about that to some extent) but actually he wasn't that close.

Then Schumacher retired, Raikkonen came, and this time he shouldn't be a support driver because Schumacher was gone. Raikkonen couldn't adapt to Ferrari, and he didn't perform at his peak. Massa had no pressure and started to work really hard, as he wanted to pick up where he thought he left with Schumacher. So Massa eventually beat him, and the press hyped. So at this point, in his mind, he ended on par with the most successful ever F1 driver, and beat a very high reputation driver.

Then he knew Alonso would be his team mate. Alonso, who spent the last few years in the midfield, who "threw his toys out of the pram ©" in 2007 only because he had a competitive team mate, who made poor Piquet crash for him in 2008, who never had a competitive team mate... so after having done so good against Schumacher and Raikkonen, all he had to do is put a little pressure on him, and he would "throw his toys out of the pram ©".

Then comes Bahrain 2010, and outqualifies Alonso, aha! Just like Hamilton in Australia 2007, this bodes well. However, Ron Dennis wasn't at Ferrari, and Alonso instead didn't reveal a hint of frustration, and even with his mistakes in the first half of the season, he made clear that he was driving better, as he was, and the team was also behind him. So maybe Massa, being the very nice guy to the Ferrari boys for several years, was starting to be a little unsure and in denial of his position on how good he was and how the team sees him. Then Hockenheim 2010 came, and reality hit him hard, it was a confirmation of what he feared the most, but didn't want to look at. But it's not Alonso's or Ferrari's fault, it's just that Massa was too arrogant. And he couldn't hide behind anything now. And no, not the accident, as he himself said.


I think the fact that Schumacher, who had retired to make space for Massa (by his own account) was active in the team from 2007-2009 was also a factor in Massa's performance level at that time. His departure for 2010 coincided with the start of Massa's problems.

#347 discover23

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 00:12

Agree with prty.. Massa has always been a support driver and he knows it. Just based on the huge gap between his salary and that of Shumacher/Kimi/Alonso, he can quickly make out that he is not Ferrari's #1 driver. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Rubens and Massa supported Shumi, why would it change now?

How can you have equality to begin with when one driver is making 30 million and the other 10?.. Psychologically, Massa is already at a disadvantage even before the season begins. With Kimi it was an exception because his performance did not justify his salary in 2008/2009.

Ferrari already knew about Massa after he was paired against Schumacher and they know his limitations, based on that information they knew that he was not the driver to extract the most out of the car week in and week out, otherwise he would have become their #1 driver by now, just like Vettel did at RedBull and that would have save Ferrari a ton of money by not bringing in Kimi nor Alonso.

Ferrari will not pay two drivers 30 million each a year.. It is just not what they do and this is not Alonso's fault..

Edited by discover23, 18 August 2012 - 00:18.


#348 prty

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 00:20

Agree with prty.. Massa has always been a support driver and he knows it.


But I didnt mean that!

#349 discover23

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 00:23

But I didnt mean that!

Agree with the part that Massa is not a top driver.. and has always been mid field, flattered by the great cars Ferrari produced in 08/09 combined with Kimi's struggles with Ferrari.

#350 bourbon

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 05:11

Watch Germany and Suzuka again, and listen to Massas radio after he just won Turkey ("I'm so sorry for Michale, so sorry...").

I agree that Massa is a level below the very top, and has deficits compared to the Kimi up to 2007 and this season. However, Massa beating KR for 1.5 years in '08/'09 was for real, there may be explanations why it happened but no valid excuses for KR, IMO. It DID happen, no way around it. If the same would happen now with Alonso, be it only for 3 or 4 races instead of one and a half seasons, we would never hear the end of it. Heck, I'm sure even if Massa managed to genuinely beat for one single race there would be hundreths of posts and multiple threads about it. :D



It did happen with Alonso at the beginning of 2010. That is why there was a massive reaction after Germany 2010. And there were hundreths [sic] of posts and multiple threads. That is when Ferrari put the clamp down and Massa agreed to the #1 policy - and Massa and Alonso haven't challenged one another in a race since...

Edited by bourbon, 18 August 2012 - 05:14.