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Mid Season Ratings by Gazzetta dello Sport.


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#1 grunge

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 18:21

Read this on James Allen's blog...Cant see a thread which discusses these different ratings,so i thought ill make a new one.

Here is the full list:

10 – Alonso
8.5 – Hamilton
8 – Raikkonen
7 – Webber, Vettel, Rosberg, Grosjean
6.5 – Di Resta, Maldonado
6 – Schumacher, Perez, Kobayashi, Hulkenberg, Kovalainen, Glock, De la Rosa, Pic, Petrov,
5.5 – Senna
5 – Button, Vergne, Ricciardo, Karthikeyan
4.5 Massa

Accompanying comments on the top 3

On Alonso “the merit is above all the Spaniard’s; he has managed to get 101% out of the car, no serious mistake, no below par race''

on Ham, “if he had translated the three poles into three wins it would be a different championship.”

on Raikkonen, “the most beautiful surprise of the year”

Id agree with the top 3 ..Rosberg is too high up for my liking and Perez a little too down.Senna deserves to be alongside Vergne and Ricciardo.Maldonado way lower

Edited by grunge, 15 August 2012 - 18:57.


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#2 Anderis

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 18:39

I think the ratings are very wrong bar first two drivers.
Raikkonen shouldn't be so high and with so much difference. He has more points than Grosjean only due to that Romain had failure in Valencia and some 1st lap incidents. His Hungarian GP was actually very good, but earlier in the season there was a mix of good and mediocre or even weak (Canada compared to Grosjean I.E.) performances from him. Being 3rd and with so big advantage to everybody lower than 3rd is unfair to me.
I don't think di Resta deserves higher than Hulk. He is clearly being outpaced by his team-mate since Barcelona. I would say Hulk did better job in 7 out of 11 GPs so no way di Resta should get higher than him
Perez deserves higher than Kobayashi. He has scored quite a bit more points despite losing more points due to bad luck.
I doubt Maldonado deserves to be in top9. As much as I would like he would deserve, he has missed too many point-scoring opportunities this year by his own faults.
De la Rosa deserves more than 1 pont difference over Kartikheyan. I think Narain shoud just get lower and I think Ricciardo deserves more than Vergne.
I'm sure Button even with all his struggles would trash Kartikheyan and Vergne in the same car so I don't think he get accurate mark too.
Not sure Petrov deserved the same as Kovalainen and Schumacher deserved to be 1 lower than Rosberg.
Etc. etc.

One of the worst ratings I've ever seen.

Edited by Anderis, 15 August 2012 - 18:40.


#3 Kvothe

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 19:00

I don't think I agree either to a lesser extent either:

I would put:

Alonso ahead with a 9.5 in that he has always or almost maximised the car, however he's made a few mistakes and hasn't been perfect.
Lewis a 9, apart from Aus he has more or less maximised the car without making a mistake, but the team and bad luck have cost him
Webber an 8.5, because he's had a lot of qualification issues that has really cost him but has recovered brilliantly (19th - 4th Valencia) and only one of three drivers to have more than one victory
Vettel an 8.0, because while he has been brilliant on occasion and had bad luck, his performances have been flaky a few times and issues of judgement have led to unnecessary penalties, and no point finishes
Raikkonen because while doing well, I don't think he's maximised the car he has under him (particularly in qualifying), has missed out on a couple of opportunities for victory and has sometimes not showed up for a race

Apart from raising Schumacher and Hulkenberg higher while demoting Rosberg down slightly I kind of agree with the rest.

Edited by Kvothe, 15 August 2012 - 19:02.


#4 as65p

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 19:44

I would put:

Alonso ahead with a 9.5 in that he has always or almost maximised the car, however he's made a few mistakes and hasn't been perfect.
Lewis a 9, apart from Aus he has more or less maximised the car without making a mistake, but the team and bad luck have cost him


Please entertain me with an elaboration of the bolded parts! :cat:

#5 Kvothe

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 20:02

Please entertain me with an elaboration of the bolded parts! :cat:


Alonso made several mistakes, going off in aus qualifying, going wide in China on the marbles and losing positions, missing Canada pole position with a mistake. Small things but enough that he shouldn't be given a perfect 10.

Lewis barring Aus, where he was too aggressive on set-up, had pole position, failed to convert and for which I have docked points for, I can't think of single foot he's put wrong since, has maximised the car relative to his team mate, and has lost a lot of points and positions down to team/pit mistakes and bad luck.

Edited by Kvothe, 15 August 2012 - 20:02.


#6 Henrik B

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 20:22

I'd like to just point out that Rosberg has won a race and has 77 points to Schumachers 29. That does certainly not tell the whole story, but it is a pretty convincing reason why there must be a gap between them on a rating like this. Another reason is that Rosberg has not yet caused a restart this year...

#7 jals99

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 20:26

Not sure Petrov deserved the same as Kovalainen and Schumacher deserved to be 1 lower than Rosberg.
Etc. etc.

Petrov deserves more than Kovalainen, he is leading 5-3 for racers where both finished. Yes, Kovalainen is quicker in quals, but for team like Caterham qual mean just 1 place on the grid, so Vitaly is not putting much attention to quals, but in races he looks stronger than Kovalainen guy


#8 Ferrari2183

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 20:44

Alonso made several mistakes, going off in aus qualifying, going wide in China on the marbles and losing positions, missing Canada pole position with a mistake. Small things but enough that he shouldn't be given a perfect 10.

Lewis barring Aus, where he was too aggressive on set-up, had pole position, failed to convert and for which I have docked points for, I can't think of single foot he's put wrong since, has maximised the car relative to his team mate, and has lost a lot of points and positions down to team/pit mistakes and bad luck.

You think Alonso had 5 tenths in his pocket in Canada? Going off in qualifying? Really Kvothe?

If we are going to count the qualifying off of Alonso we definitely have to count Hamilton's off which caused some damage to his car on his grid lap prior to the start of the race (Can't remember which). His overzealous defence against Maldonado on shot tyres, He overshot his pit pox in Malaysia.

#9 Lone

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 21:07

Maldonado 6,5 is a joke. A win, fantastic but after that what has he really done except for embarrising himself.

Think of any top driver doing a performance like his this season and they would be rated as the most overrated driver in F1 ever!



#10 Kvothe

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 21:12

You think Alonso had 5 tenths in his pocket in Canada? Going off in qualifying? Really Kvothe?

If we are going to count the qualifying off of Alonso we definitely have to count Hamilton's off which caused some damage to his car on his grid lap prior to the start of the race (Can't remember which). His overzealous defence against Maldonado on shot tyres, He overshot his pit pox in Malaysia.


The Ferrari was imo the fastest car that weekend (as evidence by how good it was on its tyres relative to Red Bull and McLaren) and even if pole was out of his reach he should have beaten Lewis in qualifying and got second place but he made a mistake at the hairpin on his final run and lost a few tenths compared to Lewis who outqualified his team mate by a second and said he got everything out of his car.

I remember hearing Lewis went off on the lap before lining up on the grid, but I don't remember it causing damage, link? Also its obvious that Drivers use that to test the grip before the start of the race and it lost him neither positions nor places like any of Alonso's mistakes, it would be akin to docking points for a mistake in practice.

He overshot his pit box by roughly two centimetres, drivers do that all of the time including Alonso, and he was not responsible for either the rear jack failing in one instance or the mechanics failing to get the sticky tape off his brakes in the other.

I really don't see what your issues are.

Edited by Kvothe, 15 August 2012 - 21:17.


#11 as65p

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 21:15

Alonso made several mistakes, going off in aus qualifying, going wide in China on the marbles and losing positions, missing Canada pole position with a mistake. Small things but enough that he shouldn't be given a perfect 10.

Lewis barring Aus, where he was too aggressive on set-up, had pole position, failed to convert and for which I have docked points for, I can't think of single foot he's put wrong since, has maximised the car relative to his team mate, and has lost a lot of points and positions down to team/pit mistakes and bad luck.


Not caring for the votes here, I'd just like to hear an explanation for your claim hoe Alonso made "several mistakes" and Hamilton made "no mistake".

So let's see, you say Hamilton was wrong with his setup in Australia, but somehow that doesn't count as a mistake. Hm. :D

Yet for Alonso, running wide once in a Ferrari that according to Domenicali "wasn't really a car" at that stage counts as a mistake? I see. But you don't stop there, far from it. "mIssing pole position" really takes the bisquit! :lol:

Whereas Hamilton hasn't put a foot wrong, really? By the standards you apply to Alonso, here is my list:

Melbourne: crap start and slower than Button. Trundling round for laps behind Perez. At least 2.5 mistakes (all by your standards, don't forget!) And don't give me the lame "they changed my clutch!" excuse.

Malaysia: threw it into the gravel in P3, causing repairs and losing setup time. Disappointing speed in wet/mixed conditions in the race.

China: no mistakes.

Bahrain: overtook Rosberg off track, very lucky to get away with that.

Barcelona: no mistakes

Monaco: slow start again, blaming car and team again. Meh. Beaten by Button while arguing with his team over the radio.

Canada:
no mistakes

Valencia: Stupidly battled with Maldonado on shot tyres. Biggest mistake of the season, losing him a bunch of valuable points.

Silverstone: dead-slow in Q3. Could do nothing in the race, other than showing off briefly against Alonso, which did nothing for his race but lose him more time.

Hockenheim: sloppy start for the 3rd time this year. No doubt all the teams and the clutchs fault, again :yawnface: .Tried to negotiate an early exit over the radio, but the team wouldn't have it. Messed with the lead battle while a lap down, ultimately faking a retirement to get a new gearbox for Hungary.

Hungary: surprised himself with a good start, for a change. So much that he almost threw it all away by outbraking himself into the first corner, unforced. Lucky to have only harmless Grosjean behind him.

So, what do we have now, 8 to 10 "mistakes", give or take one?

Didn't put a foot wrong, yeah right... :drunk:


Disclaimer for unaware bystanders: "mistake" count done in the style Kvothe counts Alonsos. So don't sweat it! ;)

Edit: Damn, Ferrari2183 already found two more "mistakes" I had overlooked. :mad: :p

Edited by as65p, 15 August 2012 - 21:18.


#12 Lone

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 21:23

Petrov deserves more than Kovalainen, he is leading 5-3 for racers where both finished. Yes, Kovalainen is quicker in quals, but for team like Caterham qual mean just 1 place on the grid, so Vitaly is not putting much attention to quals, but in races he looks stronger than Kovalainen guy


Until he outqualifies Kovalainen his carrier won't go anywhere, unless he has a sponsor who pays for him to move upwards. Race results in a team with low realiability with a car that's not racing for wins or even close to points is not a good reference for speed. Qualifying on the other hand is a good reference on speed and talent and before Petrov outqualifies Kovalainen regularly his reputation won't improve.

#13 Kvothe

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 21:32

Not caring for the votes here, I'd just like to hear an explanation for your claim hoe Alonso made "several mistakes" and Hamilton made "no mistake".

So let's see, you say Hamilton was wrong with his setup in Australia, but somehow that doesn't count as a mistake. Hm. :D

Yet for Alonso, running wide once in a Ferrari that according to Domenicali "wasn't really a car" at that stage counts as a mistake? I see. But you don't stop there, far from it. "mIssing pole position" really takes the bisquit! :lol:

Whereas Hamilton hasn't put a foot wrong, really? By the standards you apply to Alonso, here is my list:

Melbourne: crap start and slower than Button. Trundling round for laps behind Perez. At least 2.5 mistakes (all by your standards, don't forget!) And don't give me the lame "they changed my clutch!" excuse.

Malaysia: threw it into the gravel in P3, causing repairs and losing setup time. Disappointing speed in wet/mixed conditions in the race.

China: no mistakes.

Bahrain: overtook Rosberg off track, very lucky to get away with that.

Barcelona: no mistakes

Monaco: slow start again, blaming car and team again. Meh. Beaten by Button while arguing with his team over the radio.

Canada:
no mistakes

Valencia: Stupidly battled with Maldonado on shot tyres. Biggest mistake of the season, losing him a bunch of valuable points.

Silverstone: dead-slow in Q3. Could do nothing in the race, other than showing off briefly against Alonso, which did nothing for his race but lose him more time.

Hockenheim: sloppy start for the 3rd time this year. No doubt all the teams and the clutchs fault, again :yawnface: .Tried to negotiate an early exit over the radio, but the team wouldn't have it. Messed with the lead battle while a lap down, ultimately faking a retirement to get a new gearbox for Hungary.

Hungary: surprised himself with a good start, for a change. So much that he almost threw it all away by outbraking himself into the first corner, unforced. Lucky to have only harmless Grosjean behind him.

So, what do we have now, 8 to 10 "mistakes", give or take one?

Didn't put a foot wrong, yeah right... :drunk:


Disclaimer for unaware bystanders: "mistake" count done in the style Kvothe counts Alonsos. So don't sweat it! ;)


A65p

Aus: As I explained I docked points for Aus hence why he's .5 behind Alonso.

Mal: a mistake in practice? Alonso did the same thing and damaged his car as well (either Canada or Silverstone) but I didn't include that because it had neither an effect on his positions or points. Reaching much?

China: Not a mistake

Bahrain: Not a mistake, stewards actually investigated Rosberg not him.

Monaco: Beaton by Button? Which race were you watching :lol:, also his slow start which he blamed on the clutch didn't cost him any positions.

Canada: No mistakes

Valencia: No Mistakes, stewards deemed it Maldonado's fault 100 per cent, and a driver should never move over just because another might crash into him.

Hockenheim, bad start but in the past this has been down to clutch issues, although its unknown what caused this one he re overtook Kimi and was on the back of Webber before getting the puncture which ultimately meant it cost him nothing.

Ae65p first of all I would suggest you watch some races again (aka Monaco) second of all more than half of the mistakes you listed are just subjective grievances you had with his behaviour not his driving and none of the ones you highlighted with the exception of the Hockenheim start (which i believe was a clutch issue) lost him positions or points, unlike every single one of Alonso's mistakes. Alonso has made mistakes in practice sessions should I count them too?

Edited by Kvothe, 15 August 2012 - 21:41.


#14 rabbitleader

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 21:59

You think Alonso had 5 tenths in his pocket in Canada? Going off in qualifying? Really Kvothe?

If we are going to count the qualifying off of Alonso we definitely have to count Hamilton's off which caused some damage to his car on his grid lap prior to the start of the race (Can't remember which). His overzealous defence against Maldonado on shot tyres, He overshot his pit pox in Malaysia.


The "overshoot" you are referring to measured about 1cm!

#15 as65p

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 22:02

A65p

Aus: As I explained I docked points for Aus hence why he's .5 behind Alonso.

Mal: a mistake in practice? Alonso did the same thing and damaged his car as well (either Canada or Silverstone) but I didn't include that because it had neither an effect on his positions or points. Reaching much?

China: Not a mistake

Bahrain: Not a mistake, stewards actually investigated Rosberg not him.

Monaco: Beaton by Button? Which race were you watching :lol:, also his slow start which he blamed on the clutch didn't cost him any positions.

Canada: No mistakes

Valencia: No Mistakes, stewards deemed it Maldonado's fault 100 per cent, and a driver should never move over just because another might crash into him.

Hockenheim, bad start but in the past this has been down to clutch issues, although its unknown what caused this one he re overtook Kimi and was on the back of Webber before getting the puncture which ultimately meant it cost him nothing.

Ae65p first of all I would suggest you watch some races again (aka Monaco) second of all more than half of the mistakes you listed are just subjective grievances you had with his behaviour not his driving and none of the ones you highlighted with the exception of the Hockenheim start (which i believe was a clutch issue) lost him positions or points, unlike every single one of Alonso's mistakes. Alonso has made mistakes in practice sessions should I count them too?


Well, I said I'll count mistakes your way, so don't complain. True to form, I made a list and I won't accept any objections but stick by it come hell and high water. Maybe I'll even quote my own list (plus the two helpful additions from Ferrari2183 of course) in the future. Or make a signature out of it. Ohh, the possibilities! :drunk:

#16 P123

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 22:05

So, to conclude, Alonso and Hamilton have actually been terrible this year. :eek:

#17 as65p

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 22:06

So, to conclude, Alonso and Hamilton have actually been terrible this year. :eek:


You got it! :clap:


 ;)

#18 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 22:07

I would put:

Alonso ahead with a 9.5 in that he has always or almost maximised the car, however he's made a few mistakes and hasn't been perfect.
Lewis a 9, apart from Aus he has more or less maximised the car without making a mistake, but the team and bad luck have cost him
.........


You must have missed Valencia where he put unnecessarily his car in harms way and cost his wdc effort 12 points. Major error there but he has been very good at keeping his head and collecting the points otherwise. (LH should have let Maldonado go if not for any other reason that he may have taken himself and all the other cars in front of him out potentially handing Lewis the first place trophy!)

Alonso has turned a lemon into lemonade with his excellent and virtually fault free performance so far this year. He has through his skilled driving achieved more points than that car merited.

Raikkonen has been so impressive in his consistency and ability to collect points this season and is truly the story of the first half. He adapted very quickly after two years away in sharp contrast to Schumacher who is still not where he needs to be.

The Italians obviously have had enough of Massa putting him at the bottom of the list. Look for Ferrari to replace Massa with anybody else.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 15 August 2012 - 22:37.


#19 P123

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 22:11

You got it! :clap:


;)


That leaves us with Karthikeyan- his supreme battles with a McLaren and then a Red Bull in Malaysia, seeing both of them off to the pits to lick their wounds. That's deserving of a midseason 10/10 for him.

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#20 Kvothe

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 22:12

Well, I said I'll count mistakes your way, so don't complain. True to form, I made a list and I won't accept any objections but stick by it come hell and high water. Maybe I'll even quote my own list (plus the two helpful additions from Ferrari2183 of course) in the future. Or make a signature out of it. Ohh, the possibilities! :drunk:


as65p stop trying to make it personal its really rather sad.

The defining quality of the mistakes that I listed are that they lost Alonso position, points or both.

The defining quality of yours is that barring the Hockenheim one (which I believe was a clutch issue)in the mistakes you listed for Lewis Hamilton they didn't,

I also disagree with you including offs in practice, which I didn't do for Alonso so its clearly not 'my way'

Also I've responded to Ferrari and explained why I don't think his reasoning was sound

Furthermore I would politely suggest you watch the races again, since your knowledge as to the outcome of some of them is lacking

Lastly I don't think you're agenda is to actually discuss this with me, and your failure to provide an adequate response to my rebuttal including acknowledgement of some of your mistakes, mean that I decline to take this conversation any further with you, I'm happy to discuss my reasoning with anybody else.

#21 as65p

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 22:13

That leaves us with Karthikeyan- his supreme battles with a McLaren and then a Red Bull in Malaysia, seeing both of them off to the pits to lick their wounds. That's deserving of a midseason 10/10 for him.


Yep. Now let's go out and teach the rest of the world how they're all wrong. We can be famous! :D

#22 Kvothe

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 22:13

So, to conclude, Alonso and Hamilton have actually been terrible this year. :eek:


Who said that?

This was my initial comment stating that while Alonso was the best driver so far, he didn't deserve a perfect score.

Alonso made several mistakes, going off in aus qualifying, going wide in China on the marbles and losing positions, missing Canada pole position with a mistake. Small things but enough that he shouldn't be given a perfect 10.

Lewis barring Aus, where he was too aggressive on set-up, had pole position, failed to convert and for which I have docked points for, I can't think of single foot he's put wrong since, has maximised the car relative to his team mate, and has lost a lot of points and positions down to team/pit mistakes and bad luck.



#23 as65p

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 22:20

Lastly I don't think you're agenda is to actually discuss this with me, and your failure to provide an adequate response to my rebuttal including acknowledgement of some of your mistakes, mean that I decline to take this conversation any further with you, I'm happy to discuss my reasoning with anybody else.


Your choice. :wave:

#24 robefc

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 23:08

They got the top 2 right, I'd have alonso ahead of lewis almost exclusively because of australia where button had the pace on him and lewis failed to take a win with the dominant car of the weekend.

Maldo incident you could also argue either way, I think lewis should have been smarter.

Alonso hasn't been perfect but he's been as close to perfect as you're likely to get in F1, albeit the car, particularly in certain conditions, has been better than generally recognised imo. He's also had stellar support from the team which is in sharp contrast to Lewis.

#25 grunge

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 23:38

I don't think I agree either to a lesser extent either:

I would put:

Alonso ahead with a 9.5 in that he has always or almost maximised the car, however he's made a few mistakes and hasn't been perfect.
Lewis a 9, apart from Aus he has more or less maximised the car without making a mistake, but the team and bad luck have cost him
Webber an 8.5, because he's had a lot of qualification issues that has really cost him but has recovered brilliantly (19th - 4th Valencia) and only one of three drivers to have more than one victory
Vettel an 8.0, because while he has been brilliant on occasion and had bad luck, his performances have been flaky a few times and issues of judgement have led to unnecessary penalties, and no point finishes
Raikkonen because while doing well, I don't think he's maximised the car he has under him (particularly in qualifying), has missed out on a couple of opportunities for victory and has sometimes not showed up for a race

Apart from raising Schumacher and Hulkenberg higher while demoting Rosberg down slightly I kind of agree with the rest.

I still think the difference of a whole point between Alonso and Hamilton is a fair estimation of how they've performed relatively this year..I cant remember a single race where Alonso got it wrong or missed a chance by a fault of his own..Hamilton on the other hand has had 2 weekends where he clearly didnt do as well as he should have..Australia and Valencia(yes i vehemingly defended Lewis after the crash on the forums cuz the crash itself was not his doing but he shouldnt have engaged in that wheel to wheel situation with those shot tires to start with).

On Webber,i cant really agree..hes been good but thats all..hes had a couple of qualifyings now where hes been hopelessly out of pace and as much as a sec behind his teammate..i cant see how he deserves the 3rd spot.Bar for Vettel's mechanical failures,he'd be trailing him right now.

On Raikkonen..well this is a tricky one..what GdS has done here is analyse his performances keeping in mind that he's returning after a gap of 2 whole years of no F1 action..would he deserve the 3rd spot taking this season into isolation?..id say prolly no cause his qualifying has left much to be desired and he had one weekend where he wasnt on the pace at all(Monaco,albeit down to steering issues)..Its when you consider him coming after such a break and being on the pace more or less straight away,you realize his performances have been nothing short of excellent..He struggled in nailing that decisive lap in Q3 many times but that was to be expected..as hes getting back into the groove,you can see the qualifying is getting there as well..the last two weekends ,bar that setup mistake he made in Q3 are evidence of that..

#26 Menace

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 23:39

Read this on James Allen's blog...Cant see a thread which discusses these different ratings,so i thought ill make a new one.

Here is the full list:

10 – Alonso
8.5 – Hamilton
8 – Raikkonen
7 – Webber, Vettel, Rosberg, Grosjean
6.5 – Di Resta, Maldonado
6 – Schumacher, Perez, Kobayashi, Hulkenberg, Kovalainen, Glock, De la Rosa, Pic, Petrov,
5.5 – Senna
5 – Button, Vergne, Ricciardo, Karthikeyan
4.5 Massa

Accompanying comments on the top 3

On Alonso “the merit is above all the Spaniard’s; he has managed to get 101% out of the car, no serious mistake, no below par race''

on Ham, “if he had translated the three poles into three wins it would be a different championship.”

on Raikkonen, “the most beautiful surprise of the year”

Id agree with the top 3 ..Rosberg is too high up for my liking and Perez a little too down.Senna deserves to be alongside Vergne and Ricciardo.Maldonado way lower


I agree with most of it, but Hamilton and Kimi should both have 8 and Di Resta and Rosberg need to swap places. :wave:

#27 mymemoryfails

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 01:03

I agree with most of it, but Hamilton and Kimi should both have 8 and Di Resta and Rosberg need to swap places. :wave:


surely you mean DiResta should be with Bruno? 5.5 max.

mymemoryfails

#28 MP422

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 01:03

Not caring for the votes here, I'd just like to hear an explanation for your claim hoe Alonso made "several mistakes" and Hamilton made "no mistake".

So let's see, you say Hamilton was wrong with his setup in Australia, but somehow that doesn't count as a mistake. Hm. :D

Yet for Alonso, running wide once in a Ferrari that according to Domenicali "wasn't really a car" at that stage counts as a mistake? I see. But you don't stop there, far from it. "mIssing pole position" really takes the bisquit! :lol:

Whereas Hamilton hasn't put a foot wrong, really? By the standards you apply to Alonso, here is my list:

Melbourne: crap start and slower than Button. Trundling round for laps behind Perez. At least 2.5 mistakes (all by your standards, don't forget!) And don't give me the lame "they changed my clutch!" excuse. Documented clutch issue. well known and you know it.
Malaysia: threw it into the gravel in P3, causing repairs and losing setup time. Disappointing speed in wet/mixed conditions in the race. Yea... and went on to pole position and a 3rd place.

China: no mistakes.

Bahrain: No Mistake

Barcelona: no mistakes

Monaco: slow start again, blaming car and team again. Meh. Beaten by Button while arguing with his team over the radio. So this is a poor start without losing position ?? and poor communication... Right nice !

Canada:
no mistakes

Valencia: Stupidly battled with Maldonado on shot tyres. Biggest mistake of the season, losing him a bunch of valuable points. This is racing not pull over or get pounded, Penalty for Maldonado whom has lengthy history of bone head moves..... keep scraping the barrel

Silverstone: dead-slow in Q3. Could do nothing in the race, other than showing off briefly against Alonso, which did nothing for his race but lose him more time. Outperformed his car and his teammate and gave the fans a show.... can't see the mistake of mclaren not having pace.

Hockenheim: sloppy start for the 3rd time this year. No doubt all the teams and the clutchs fault, again :yawnface: .Tried to negotiate an early exit over the radio, but the team wouldn't have it. Messed with the lead battle while a lap down, ultimately faking a retirement to get a new gearbox for Hungary. Picks up a puncture from massive debris.... Hamiltons fault ???

Hungary: surprised himself with a good start, for a change. So much that he almost threw it all away by outbraking himself into the first corner, unforced. Lucky to have only harmless Grosjean behind him. POLE POSITION AND MAXIMUM POINTS ??? MISTAKE OR MASTER CLASS ????

So, what do we have now, 8 to 10 "mistakes", give or take one?

Didn't put a foot wrong, yeah right... :drunk:


Disclaimer for unaware bystanders: "mistake" count done in the style Kvothe counts Alonsos. So don't sweat it! ;)

Edit: Damn, Ferrari2183 already found two more "mistakes" I had overlooked. :mad: :p



No you have 8-10 mistakes ..... more like one maybe two nit picky ok starts... and Pastor Maldonado crashing into lewis which you think is lewis mistake for some reason :drunk: I'm sure valencia is the highlight of 2012 season for you.

Scraping the barrel on that post mate.

Edited by MP422, 16 August 2012 - 01:05.


#29 Obi Offiah

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 02:45

They got the top 2 right, I'd have alonso ahead of lewis almost exclusively because of australia where button had the pace on him and lewis failed to take a win with the dominant car of the weekend.

Maldo incident you could also argue either way, I think lewis should have been smarter.

Alonso hasn't been perfect but he's been as close to perfect as you're likely to get in F1, albeit the car, particularly in certain conditions, has been better than generally recognised imo. He's also had stellar support from the team which is in sharp contrast to Lewis.

:up: :up: :up:
Its also harder to judge about him maximising the cars potential, when Massa is in the other seat.

#30 SUPRAF1

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:12

I've always thought that these types of ratings weren't designed so you can compare drivers amongst each other. I considered them to be based on the driver against himself and our expectations of that driver.

For example, if Perez exceeded expectations and did well, he should be given a higher rank regardless of his ranking on the WDC.

Likewise, if someone like Button, who is expected to perform well, performs poorly, then he'll be rated low.



#31 Ferrari2183

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:34

The Ferrari was imo the fastest car that weekend (as evidence by how good it was on its tyres relative to Red Bull and McLaren) and even if pole was out of his reach he should have beaten Lewis in qualifying and got second place but he made a mistake at the hairpin on his final run and lost a few tenths compared to Lewis who outqualified his team mate by a second and said he got everything out of his car.

I remember hearing Lewis went off on the lap before lining up on the grid, but I don't remember it causing damage, link? Also its obvious that Drivers use that to test the grip before the start of the race and it lost him neither positions nor places like any of Alonso's mistakes, it would be akin to docking points for a mistake in practice.

He overshot his pit box by roughly two centimetres, drivers do that all of the time including Alonso, and he was not responsible for either the rear jack failing in one instance or the mechanics failing to get the sticky tape off his brakes in the other.

I really don't see what your issues are.

You're generally fair in your posts but if we're going to hold Alonso to such high standards then I think the criteria should be spread evenly across the field.

What places did Alonso's off in qualifying cost him? And you don't think that Hamilton should have exercised some restraint when being chased by Maldonado while on shot tyres?

This is the reason why I stay out of driver rating threads as much as possible... I don't think Alonso's season deserves a 10 but I would definitely give him a 10 for his relentless pursuit of championship points.

#32 Kvothe

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:14

You're generally fair in your posts but if we're going to hold Alonso to such high standards then I think the criteria should be spread evenly across the field.

What places did Alonso's off in qualifying cost him? And you don't think that Hamilton should have exercised some restraint when being chased by Maldonado while on shot tyres?

This is the reason why I stay out of driver rating threads as much as possible... I don't think Alonso's season deserves a 10 but I would definitely give him a 10 for his relentless pursuit of championship points.


Than why the argument? I'm stating that as well

In regards to Aus qualifying he missed out on Q3 by a tenth to the Torro Rosso of Daniel Ricciardo, finishing in twelfth and its not unrealistic to think that he would have gone faster had he not crashed out (I believe he was actually in Q3 at one point after crashing before the track evolved). While he made up for it during the race with an excellent drive to fifth, it's still a blemish and one of several examples which would leave me unable to give Alonso a 10.

As for the Lewis Hamilton and Maldonado incident, it isn't a matter of holding anyone to a higher standard, because it is a completely different to the Alonso making a driving error in qualifying missing the session. Technically there was nothing wrong with his driving, as evidenced by the stewards decision (and in contrast to Alonso). The issue of whether lewis should have shown restraint is I fee a strawman that detracts from the fact that Maldonado went off track and then came back on t boning Hamilton particularly becomes too subjective to definitively say whether he should have conceded or not. For example there will be those who think he should have thought of the long game, while others who believe (myself included) that you should never concede a place just because you fear the other driver might crash into you, not only does this excuse the behaviour and driving ability of the latter,and destroy racing, but it also sets a dangerous precedent which other drivers will than act upon sensing weakness (ie throw the car down the inside and Hamilton will concede). What we can say is that in the actual incident driving wise Lewis Hamilton did nothing wrong, while Maldonado was held to account by the stewards, that is why I see nothing wrong with it and do not count it as a mistake.

Edited by Kvothe, 16 August 2012 - 09:15.


#33 as65p

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:36

The issue of whether lewis should have shown restraint is I fee a strawman that detracts from the fact that Maldonado went off track and then came back on t boning Hamilton particularly becomes too subjective to definitively say whether he should have conceded or not. For example there will be those who think he should have thought of the long game, while others who believe (myself included) that you should never concede a place just because you fear the other driver might crash into you, not only does this excuse the behaviour and driving ability of the latter,and destroy racing, but it also sets a dangerous precedent which other drivers will than act upon sensing weakness (ie throw the car down the inside and Hamilton will concede). What we can say is that in the actual incident driving wise Lewis Hamilton did nothing wrong, while Maldonado was held to account by the stewards, that is why I see nothing wrong with it and do not count it as a mistake.


You're missing an important facet. Between not fighting for a place and holding onto a place regardless the circumstances there is (or should be) the drivers brain which he can use to decide what's worth the risk and what not. Just as they do each and every lap when judging what braking point /cornering speed is worth risking and what not anymore.

In this regard, Hamilton made the wrong decision (a.k.a mistake) that day. Obviously we'll never know how the remaining laps would have panned out, but given how obviously Hamilton hadn't any grip left, I put the chances of him holding off Maldonado to the flag at under 5 percent, at best.

Accidentically we saw a race later with Alonso how to handle the frustration of losing places on shot tyres while still maximizing the possible and not risk too much. And i don't think anyone overtaking him those last laps now entertains illusions like "throw the car down the inside and Alonso will concede" because of it.


#34 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:37

Than why the argument? I'm stating that as well


Really, you still don't know why? I'll help: you are counting every tiniest imperfection as a mistake for Alonso, but are eager to excuse rather major incidents for Hamilton. That's all.

#35 Ferrari2183

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:45

Than why the argument? I'm stating that as well

In regards to Aus qualifying he missed out on Q3 by a tenth to the Torro Rosso of Daniel Ricciardo, finishing in twelfth and its not unrealistic to think that he would have gone faster had he not crashed out (I believe he was actually in Q3 at one point after crashing before the track evolved). While he made up for it during the race with an excellent drive to fifth, it's still a blemish and one of several examples which would leave me unable to give Alonso a 10.

As for the Lewis Hamilton and Maldonado incident, it isn't a matter of holding anyone to a higher standard, because it is a completely different to the Alonso making a driving error in qualifying missing the session. Technically there was nothing wrong with his driving, as evidenced by the stewards decision (and in contrast to Alonso). The issue of whether lewis should have shown restraint is I fee a strawman that detracts from the fact that Maldonado went off track and then came back on t boning Hamilton particularly becomes too subjective to definitively say whether he should have conceded or not. For example there will be those who think he should have thought of the long game, while others who believe (myself included) that you should never concede a place just because you fear the other driver might crash into you, not only does this excuse the behaviour and driving ability of the latter,and destroy racing, but it also sets a dangerous precedent which other drivers will than act upon sensing weakness (ie throw the car down the inside and Hamilton will concede). What we can say is that in the actual incident driving wise Lewis Hamilton did nothing wrong, while Maldonado was held to account by the stewards, that is why I see nothing wrong with it and do not count it as a mistake.

Why the argument? Because you nit pick Alonso's mistakes and then proceed to elevate your score of Hamilton by declaring him virtually faultless. You and others then go on to make excuses for Hamilton's mistakes such as searching for grip, on a grid lap, as well as bringing forth measurements for overshooting his pitbox... Is it possible that overshooting his box by whatever mm could have upset the mechanics rhythm somewhat and contributed to his slow stop? Apparently not because Hamilton needs to absolved of a partial share of the blame.

And it is my opinion that Hamilton should have yielded the position to Maldonado much the same way Alonso did to numerous drivers in Canada... Was there a dangerous precedent set by that? I'm not saying that Hamilton should have relinquished the position because it was Maldonando. I'm of the opinion that it was silly to fight with anybody given the state of his tyres.

As for the link regarding the damage I seem to recall reading somewhere that there was minor damage somewhere. If I am able to find the piece I will post it.

Edit: As for Alonso's China mistake, I believe he was attempting an overtaking move on Maldonado and hit the marbles. The same thing happened to Grosjean.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 16 August 2012 - 09:51.


#36 Kvothe

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:45

Really, you still don't know why? I'll help: you are counting every tiniest imperfection as a mistake for Alonso, but are eager to excuse rather major incidents for Hamilton. That's all.


Ehh? I rated Alonso higher than Hamilton ergo I'm suggesting he's performed better, I'm just stating he hasn't been perfect and actually listing reasons. Crashing out in qualifying or going wide during a race and losing positions is counting every tiniest perfection? Ok.

What major incidents for Hamilton? I've explained why I think Hamilton hasn't made a mistake since Aus (with my criteria specifically being incidents mentioned such as crashes in FP session haven't cost him points or positions).

#37 Baddoer

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:47

Why the hell Hamilton is that high? He's done nothing spectacular this year.

#38 as65p

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:53

Ehh? I rated Alonso higher than Hamilton ergo I'm suggesting he's performed better, I'm just stating he hasn't been perfect and actually listing reasons. Crashing out in qualifying or going wide during a race and losing positions is counting every tiniest perfection? Ok.


You're stating the obviosu re: Alonsos overall performances, but then you make big straw-clutching efforts to discredit it in detail. Do you really believe that's not obvious to everyone?

What major incidents for Hamilton? I've explained why I think Hamilton hasn't made a mistake since Aus (with my criteria specifically being incidents mentioned such as crashes in FP session haven't cost him points or positions).


Yeah, and it has been explained to you while others think he has. Of course, nobody can force you to recognize it, just as you can't force anyone to accept your explanations.

#39 Kvothe

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:03

Why the argument? Because you nit pick Alonso's mistakes and then proceed to elevate your score of Hamilton by declaring him virtually faultless. You and others then go on to make excuses for Hamilton's mistakes such as searching for grip, on a grid lap, as well as bringing forth measurements for overshooting his pitbox... Is it possible that overshooting his box by whatever mm could have upset the mechanics rhythm somewhat and contributed to his slow stop? Apparently not because Hamilton needs to absolved of a partial share of the blame.

And it is my opinion that Hamilton should have yielded the position to Maldonado much the same way Alonso did to numerous drivers in Canada... Was there a dangerous precedent set by that? I'm not saying that Hamilton should have relinquished the position because it was Maldonando. I'm of the opinion that it was silly to fight with anybody given the state of his tyres.

As for the link regarding the damage I seem to recall reading somewhere that there was minor damage somewhere. If I am able to find the piece I will post it.


Hardly nit picking, if any driver crashed out of qualifying and consequently failed to make it into q3 it would be mentionable (God knows if Lewis did that we wouldn't hear the end of it). Likewise going wide during a race and losing positions is also mentionable, you have an argument for the Canada qualifying but I believe had Alonso qualified on the front row he would have been in a position to dictate the race better and win it.

As for Hamilton drivers including Alonso all miss their lines by centimetres all the time, and I'm sure the mechanics in the hundreds of pit stop practices they do are forced to sometimes change the wheels of a car just a centimetre off. Furthermore the problems with the pitstops were actually caused by the mechanics being unable to get the sticky tape off the brakes on one occasion, and a problem with the rear jack (which was changed the race afterwards) in another. The Hamilton shot his marks was just a strawman introduced by several posters in a throwback to Malaysia 2011 where MW claimed LH overshot his marks and this led to the slow stop.

Alonso didn't yield he just got past on the long straight with DRS, there was nothing he could have done short of weave like crazy and take them both off. No it wasn't silly to fight, LH kept KR behind for multiple laps on those tyres, until KR got him on traction but KR didn't take him out. Maldonado was unable to pass Lewis in the DRS zone and with just over 1 lap remaining LH still had a chance at claiming a podium, with him doing nothing wrong driving wise he did not expect (and quite rightly) to get t boned in the side. We have examples of KR and SV (SV against his own team mate on the penultimate lap) both fighting to defend their positions on worn rubber against those on much fresher and neither were taken out. The problem with your stance is that automatically by default you're labelling it as a mistake regardless of the outcome (what if Hamilton had held of a maldonado who didn't crash) and regardless of whether the driver defending did nothing wrong.
At the end of the day the stewards don't share your judgement and put the blame on Maldonado 100%, I just don't see how it can be labelled a mistake.

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#40 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:18

Ehh? I rated Alonso higher than Hamilton ergo I'm suggesting he's performed better, I'm just stating he hasn't been perfect and actually listing reasons. Crashing out in qualifying or going wide during a race and losing positions is counting every tiniest perfection? Ok.


It would be ok to count tiniest imperfections if you did it for everyone, but you don't

What major incidents for Hamilton? I've explained why I think Hamilton hasn't made a mistake since Aus (with my criteria specifically being incidents mentioned such as crashes in FP session haven't cost him points or positions).


I know that, but IMHO your criteria don't make sense and are unevenly applied. Like Ferrari2183 I think that, e.g., Hamilton's Maldonado crash was partly his fault even though it was Maldonado who caused the accident. The mistake was for Hamilton to get into a fight at all at this point of the race, considering his tyres. Had he shown the race craft Alonso showed in Canada, Hamilton would have 15 points more.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 16 August 2012 - 10:18.


#41 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:20

Why the hell Hamilton is that high? He's done nothing spectacular this year.


I think there might be a misunderstanding in this thread about the Gazetta's rating. If I understood James Allen correctly (it was not entirely clear), the mid-season rating is the combined result of the post-race ratings they apply after each race.

#42 as65p

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:29

Hardly nit picking, if any driver crashed out of qualifying and consequently failed to make it into q3 it would be mentionable (God knows if Lewis did that we wouldn't hear the end of it). Likewise going wide during a race and losing positions is also mentionable, you have an argument for the Canada qualifying but I believe had Alonso qualified on the front row he would have been in a position to dictate the race better and win it.


I don't believe that. Now who's right?

As for Hamilton, he crashed (only driver to do so all session) in Malaysia P3, causing repairs and losing setup time. That is mentionable allright, cause I believe the time lost there partly accounted for his mediocre speed on race day when he couldn't follow Alonso and Perez.

As for Hamilton drivers including Alonso all miss their lines by centimetres all the time, and I'm sure the mechanics in the hundreds of pit stop practices they do are forced to sometimes change the wheels of a car just a centimetre off. Furthermore the problems with the pitstops were actually caused by the mechanics being unable to get the sticky tape off the brakes on one occasion, and a problem with the rear jack (which was changed the race afterwards) in another. The Hamilton shot his marks was just a strawman introduced by several posters in a throwback to Malaysia 2011 where MW claimed LH overshot his marks and this led to the slow stop.


I believe every detail in a pit stop counts towards the possibilities of it going well or not. Hamilton not meeting his marks perfectly is a fact, not a strawman.

Alonso didn't yield he just got past on the long straight with DRS, there was nothing he could have done short of weave like crazy and take them both off. No it wasn't silly to fight, LH kept KR behind for multiple laps on those tyres, until KR got him on traction but KR didn't take him out. Maldonado was unable to pass Lewis in the DRS zone and with just over 1 lap remaining LH still had a chance at claiming a podium, with him doing nothing wrong driving wise he did not expect (and quite rightly) to get t boned in the side. We have examples of KR and SV (SV against his own team mate on the penultimate lap) both fighting to defend their positions on worn rubber against those on much fresher and neither were taken out. The problem with your stance is that automatically by default you're labelling it as a mistake regardless of the outcome (what if Hamilton had held of a maldonado who didn't crash) and regardless of whether the driver defending did nothing wrong.
At the end of the day the stewards don't share your judgement and put the blame on Maldonado 100%, I just don't see how it can be labelled a mistake.


I don't believe that. His lack of grip during the last laps was getting progressivel worse, I believe to a large part because he didn't attempt to nurse the degrading tyres but let his heart overrule his brain trying to fight a lost battle.


#43 Kvothe

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:34

It would be ok to count tiniest imperfections if you did it for everyone, but you don't



I know that, but IMHO your criteria don't make sense and are unevenly applied. Like Ferrari2183 I think that, e.g., Hamilton's Maldonado crash was partly his fault even though it was Maldonado who caused the accident. The mistake was for Hamilton to get into a fight at all at this point of the race, considering his tyres. Had he shown the race craft Alonso showed in Canada, Hamilton would have 15 points more.


Hardly the tiniest, that would have included Alonso crashing off in practice and damaging his car which others felt the need to do for Hamilton. I however only included things that I thought lost Alonso and Hamilton position or points which I think is perfectly reasonable.

What racecraft did Alonso show in Canada? he defended the inside, and they went straight past him on a long straight powered by DRS, the interesting thing would have been to see his behaviour had they been unable to do that.
I remember in 2010 when Lewis on worn tyres defended against Vettel and Alonso at the beginning of the race for several laps, with the latter two all over him, and the last race having seen Vettel take out Mark Webber on a straight. By yours and Ferrari's opinion he should have yielded, yet he didn't and went onto win the race....go figure.


#44 Ferrari2183

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:38

Hardly nit picking, if any driver crashed out of qualifying and consequently failed to make it into q3 it would be mentionable (God knows if Lewis did that we wouldn't hear the end of it). Likewise going wide during a race and losing positions is also mentionable, you have an argument for the Canada qualifying but I believe had Alonso qualified on the front row he would have been in a position to dictate the race better and win it.

As for Hamilton drivers including Alonso all miss their lines by centimetres all the time, and I'm sure the mechanics in the hundreds of pit stop practices they do are forced to sometimes change the wheels of a car just a centimetre off. Furthermore the problems with the pitstops were actually caused by the mechanics being unable to get the sticky tape off the brakes on one occasion, and a problem with the rear jack (which was changed the race afterwards) in another. The Hamilton shot his marks was just a strawman introduced by several posters in a throwback to Malaysia 2011 where MW claimed LH overshot his marks and this led to the slow stop.

Alonso didn't yield he just got past on the long straight with DRS, there was nothing he could have done short of weave like crazy and take them both off. No it wasn't silly to fight, LH kept KR behind for multiple laps on those tyres, until KR got him on traction but KR didn't take him out. Maldonado was unable to pass Lewis in the DRS zone and with just over 1 lap remaining LH still had a chance at claiming a podium, with him doing nothing wrong driving wise he did not expect (and quite rightly) to get t boned in the side. We have examples of KR and SV (SV against his own team mate on the penultimate lap) both fighting to defend their positions on worn rubber against those on much fresher and neither were taken out. The problem with your stance is that automatically by default you're labelling it as a mistake regardless of the outcome (what if Hamilton had held of a maldonado who didn't crash) and regardless of whether the driver defending did nothing wrong.
At the end of the day the stewards don't share your judgement and put the blame on Maldonado 100%, I just don't see how it can be labelled a mistake.

We acknowledge the mistake of Alosno during qualifying, but how many positions did it really cost him? He was driving a pig of a car for pete sake...

I also acknowledge that drivers miss their boxes all the time and that adjustments are made but why is it so difficult to consider that this time it could have led to pit stop issues?

As for Canada, Alonso stayed well clear of anybody during that phase. When he got out of the hairpin he immediately steered to the right of the track giving the others the racing line. Furthermore, Hamilton was in a position to defend from Raikkonen because he still had some rubber left. Once the rubber was gone, Raikkonen got by him quite easily. It was at this point he should have realised that hard assed defending was not the order of the day...

Also, you keep going off about Alonso running wide on marbles. He did not run wide due to a mistake but rather attempted an overtake on Maldonando. Grosjean had then same thing happen to him at the exact same place while trying to overtake Vettel.

#45 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:47

OK Kvothe, there is no point arguing.

#46 Konsta

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:49

We acknowledge the mistake of Alosno during qualifying, but how many positions did it really cost him? He was driving a pig of a car for pete sake...

I also acknowledge that drivers miss their boxes all the time and that adjustments are made but why is it so difficult to consider that this time it could have led to pit stop issues?

As for Canada, Alonso stayed well clear of anybody during that phase. When he got out of the hairpin he immediately steered to the right of the track giving the others the racing line. Furthermore, Hamilton was in a position to defend from Raikkonen because he still had some rubber left. Once the rubber was gone, Raikkonen got by him quite easily. It was at this point he should have realised that hard assed defending was not the order of the day...

Also, you keep going off about Alonso running wide on marbles. He did not run wide due to a mistake but rather attempted an overtake on Maldonando. Grosjean had then same thing happen to him at the exact same place while trying to overtake Vettel.


I also rate Alonso the highest this season so far but it is silly to elevate the deficiencies to an absurd level. Yes, F2012 was not nearly as good as it is now but it was no tractor either. No-one else seems to be allowed the same excuse - what if Lotus E20 was nigh-on undriveable in the beginnig and only the sublime abilities of both Kimi and Romain the car even finished races. At least double-standards.

A driver with a perfect 10 record cannot have mediocre races - Canada alone should drop the rating a bit (no matter who´s decision the strategy was).

#47 Kvothe

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:04

We acknowledge the mistake of Alosno during qualifying, but how many positions did it really cost him? He was driving a pig of a car for pete sake...

I also acknowledge that drivers miss their boxes all the time and that adjustments are made but why is it so difficult to consider that this time it could have led to pit stop issues?

As for Canada, Alonso stayed well clear of anybody during that phase. When he got out of the hairpin he immediately steered to the right of the track giving the others the racing line. Furthermore, Hamilton was in a position to defend from Raikkonen because he still had some rubber left. Once the rubber was gone, Raikkonen got by him quite easily. It was at this point he should have realised that hard assed defending was not the order of the day...

Also, you keep going off about Alonso running wide on marbles. He did not run wide due to a mistake but rather attempted an overtake on Maldonando. Grosjean had then same thing happen to him at the exact same place while trying to overtake Vettel.


Aus 2011: Alonso was 1.4 seconds off pole (3rd fastest car)
Aus 2012 Alonso 1.5 seconds off pole (with the liklihood being he could have gone faster)
How do you define a pig of a car?

Secondly Lewis Hamilton in a bad car crashed during Monaco qualifying and I count that as a mistake especially because he was a favourite for pole, I see no reason to absolve Alonso because of that.

Is that how you interpreted it? Usually when a car concedes a position they give the inside line to the next corner, they don't take that route, give up the inside line and go out on to the marbles losing grip (when on worn rubber it'ss at a premium) unless they are defending.
The rubber may have still been going but Raikkonen was in a superior car to Maldonado and had better tyre preservation. Kimi got past easily but Maldonado was struggling and failing even with DRS so by your definition with Maldonado unable to pass and on a track which is know for being hard to overtake on, it makes sense that lewis would defend. He might expect a rough pass (and perhaps justifiably paid the consequences) but what he couldn't account for would be a car coming back on track and t boning him, he took the risk on the former not the latter.

Does Alonso know what marbles are?
Does he know the effect they have on grip?
Was it his choice to go out on them to try and overtake?
Did he realise there may have been a chance that the marbles would adversely effect his grip?
Did he willingly take that risk
Did he go wide?

If the answer to all of these is yes, I would maintain my position it was a mistake.

Edited by Kvothe, 16 August 2012 - 11:12.


#48 RedOne

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:16

Aus 2011: Alonso was 1.4 seconds off pole (3rd fastest car)
Aus 2012 Alonso 1.5 seconds off pole (with the liklihood being he could have gone faster)
How do you define a pig of a car?

Secondly Lewis Hamilton in a bad car crashed during Monaco qualifying and I count that as a mistake especially because he was a favourite for pole, I see no reason to absolve Alonso because of that.

Is that how you interpreted it? Usually when a car concedes a position they give the inside line to the next corner, they don't take that route, give up the inside line and go out on to the marbles losing grip (when on worn rubber it'ss at a premium) unless they are defending.
The rubber may have still been going but Raikkonen was in a superior car to Maldonado and had better tyre preservation. Kimi got past easily but Maldonado was struggling and failing even with DRS so by your definition with Maldonado unable to pass and on a track which is know for being hard to overtake on, it makes sense that lewis would defend. He might expect a rough pass (and perhaps justifiably paid the consequences) but what he couldn't account for would be a car coming back on track and t boning him, he took the risk on the former not the latter.

Does Alonso know what marbles are?
Does he know the effect they have on grip?
Was it his choice to go out on them to try and overtake?
Did he realise there may have been a chance that the marbles would adversely effect his grip?
Did he willingly take that risk
Did he go wide?

If the answer to all of these is yes, I would maintain my position it was a mistake.


And you're the same guy saying Hamilton has made no mistakes since Aus?

#49 Kvothe

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:21

And you're the same guy saying Hamilton has made no mistakes since Aus?


Care to add anything more substantive than that?

#50 ZooL

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:23

I agree with the rankings except for Alonso and Hamilton who should have the same score.

Gazzetta's reasoning in that had Hamilton converted his poles to win would be a different championship doesn't take into account the reasons why they were not converted.

Namely, Hamilton was told by McLaren to change his launch control settings at the last minute and they were worse. They underfuelled his car for qualifying, and pit stop shoddiness. Hamilton had 8 consecutive race weekends where McLaren made operational errors that cost him.

It is also worth noting that Ferrari have recently agreed they have been very lucky with the unusual amounts of wet weather helping them.

Where was Alonso in the dry normal race of Hungary?