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Morton's Fork - Lotus 1-2 at Spa


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Poll: What would you do? (106 member(s) have cast votes)

What would you do?

  1. Order Grosjean to concede the lead? (57 votes [53.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 53.77%

  2. Retain the positions? (49 votes [46.23%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.23%

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#1 DaddyCool

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:58

Ok, we had a similar poll for McLaren in Germany.

So, let's suppose in the last few laps in Spa, it's Grosjean leading Raikkonen by a few seconds. Both cars have about the same pace, and you're looking for your teams first victory and 1-2 in this year.

However, the driver who leads is far behind the WDC leader (in terms of points), while the second place driver can mount a serious WDC challange. Would you

A, Apply team orders to have a better shot at WDC, thus depriving your promising rookie driver his first win (keep in mind the phylosophical aspects)

or

B, Don't interfere, ultimately hurting your WDC challenge, but keep a healthy atmosphere and equality in your team.

The choice is yours, folks :)

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#2 undersquare

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:16

If they had any sense the team would have had an agreement in place long before the situation arose.

Then at the time it was made, the agreement would have been equitable, but now Kimi would have his best shot at the title.

As it is, hypothetically, I think Romain should be allowed to go for it.

#3 nordschleife

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:19

If you believe your contender (Raikkonen) has a realistic chance of winning the title then you have to order the switch. If you wound up falling short by those few points - that's what you couldn't live with, not hurting the feelings of a team member.

#4 DarkknightRises

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:20

Eric will nvr make his golden boy a 2nd driver, he is his manager afterall!! And there is no need for Romain to play his role, kimi as always will trash him on race even when he was leading at first!! Plenty of races are evident to that!!

#5 Trust

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:29

I really can't imagine Grosjean beating Kimi on pure pace in race in SPA. But if somehow that situation arises, they should let Kimi win it.

#6 mgs315

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 13:01

They knew whoever was 2nd at the start of the final stint in Hungary had a good chance at the win yet they let them bang wheels over it. I'd say they'd just let it be.

#7 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 13:24

Retain the positions. Grosjean is not that far behind Raikkonen in the championship, if he won then they'd potentially have two drivers with an outside chance at the championship. Plus I don't think Grosjean would actually do it if he was told to.

#8 F1ultimate

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 13:39

Although the E20 has WDC and WCC is a fantastic car, potential alone doesn't get you victories. Pulling together a successful WDC and WCC campaign is difficult let alone winning one race this year which is what Lotus haven't managed yet.

Team orders are well off the cards at this stage and I'm sure both drivers are just have their mind set on breaking their duck of scoring a race victory.

#9 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 14:00

I don't think Lotus is already mature enough, as a team, to seriously mount a WDC challenge right until the end of the season, so I'd say let them race. I think their season will be more successful than expected, so come December the drivers and team will be happy either way.

But if Lotus feels differently, I'd be ok with them making the switch, and I hope - like undersquare wrote - that they put an agreement in place well in advance.

#10 jeze

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 14:23

I don't think they will steal Grosjean's first Grand Prix win from him...

Coulthard, Barrichello and Massa had all won races before.

#11 Seanspeed

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 14:27

Retain the positions. Grosjean is not that far behind Raikkonen in the championship, if he won then they'd potentially have two drivers with an outside chance at the championship. Plus I don't think Grosjean would actually do it if he was told to.

He's 40 points behind Kimi and 88 behind Alonso. He's effectively out of the championship. Its not a disgrace or anything, though. He's shown great performance and I think he'll get a shot at a title again in the future.

And why dont you think he'd move over if asked? The last thing he wants to do as a rookie is disobey orders and get on the team's bad side.

#12 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 14:33

He's 40 points behind Kimi and 88 behind Alonso. He's effectively out of the championship. Its not a disgrace or anything, though. He's shown great performance and I think he'll get a shot at a title again in the future.

And why dont you think he'd move over if asked? The last thing he wants to do as a rookie is disobey orders and get on the team's bad side.

If some of the higher placed drivers had a bad day (and I think they'd have to to end up with a Lotus 1-2), then if Grosjean wins he'll have a chance. Plus he's shown more than enough pace to suggest that he could still outscore Raikkonen at the end of the season (I think he will actually).

From what I remember Grosjean was very unhappy indeed when the team asked him to move over in Bahrain, and that was only for second place. Therefore if a win was near, I don't think he'd move. Also, it seems that Grosjean is more determined than most to make the most of his time in F1, since he knows he was lucky to get a second shot. It might be the only time he will have a win within reach; therefore I think he would not move over.

#13 Trust

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 14:36

If some of the higher placed drivers had a bad day (and I think they'd have to to end up with a Lotus 1-2), then if Grosjean wins he'll have a chance. Plus he's shown more than enough pace to suggest that he could still outscore Raikkonen at the end of the season (I think he will actually).

From what I remember Grosjean was very unhappy indeed when the team asked him to move over in Bahrain, and that was only for second place. Therefore if a win was near, I don't think he'd move. Also, it seems that Grosjean is more determined than most to make the most of his time in F1, since he knows he was lucky to get a second shot. It might be the only time he will have a win within reach; therefore I think he would not move over.

What would you do if Alonso is in 3rd place?

#14 Viryfan

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 14:40

If some of the higher placed drivers had a bad day (and I think they'd have to to end up with a Lotus 1-2), then if Grosjean wins he'll have a chance. Plus he's shown more than enough pace to suggest that he could still outscore Raikkonen at the end of the season (I think he will actually).

From what I remember Grosjean was very unhappy indeed when the team asked him to move over in Bahrain, and that was only for second place. Therefore if a win was near, I don't think he'd move. Also, it seems that Grosjean is more determined than most to make the most of his time in F1, since he knows he was lucky to get a second shot. It might be the only time he will have a win within reach; therefore I think he would not move over.



Not really, he was unhappy because his engineer made him stay on track longer than he wanted in second stint, his tyres were shot.

#15 korzeniow

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 14:44

I think Lotus' main goal right now is to win a race. Boullier said not so long ago that they don't think about titles yet. The drivers were free to race during Hungarian GP, and I think they would be free to do so at Spa.

If they would win earlier maby it would b a diffrent story.

You also have to keep in mind that Grosjean is Lotus' long term prospect, whereas we don't know how long Kimi is willing to stay with them or in F1 for that matter.

Definately it's very had decision. I wouldn't have problems with any they would opt for.

I would love to see Lotus clinch both titles so I marginally tend to team orders. On the other hand those could be achieved without team orders as well since there are many points available still


#16 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 14:45

What would you do if Alonso is in 3rd place?

Then realistically Raikkonen's title hopes would be over too, so there would be no point swapping them.

#17 Trust

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 14:52

Then realistically Raikkonen's title hopes would be over too, so there would be no point swapping them.

Are you serious? So if Alonso finishes on spa in 3rd place, he'll win the title?
Do I understand this correctly, if they swoop places Raikkonen would be 37 points behind Alonso with 8 races to go, and you would call that over?

#18 DarkknightRises

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 14:55

If some of the higher placed drivers had a bad day (and I think they'd have to to end up with a Lotus 1-2), then if Grosjean wins he'll have a chance. Plus he's shown more than enough pace to suggest that he could still outscore Raikkonen at the end of the season (I think he will actually).

From what I remember Grosjean was very unhappy indeed when the team asked him to move over in Bahrain, and that was only for second place. Therefore if a win was near, I don't think he'd move. Also, it seems that Grosjean is more determined than most to make the most of his time in F1, since he knows he was lucky to get a second shot. It might be the only time he will have a win within reach; therefore I think he would not move over.



That wasnt team order!! Two driver on different strategies, is common sense to move over for the faster teammate with option tyres on and chasing for win!! But the team delayed the decision, and when they do, its already too late as kimi's tyre was shot too!! Eric said afterward they didn't want to ruin romain 's feeling, so they rather value romain more than maiden wins!! Thats how they screw kimi 's chances too in valencia, hockeinham, barcelona etc This team need to hv more determination in order to win, their strategies and pit stops were off the standard of a top team!! Allan Mcnish said many teams did not understand their strategies all the time...........kimi is on his own to win Spa!!


#19 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 14:59

Are you serious? So if Alonso finishes on spa in 3rd place, he'll win the title?
Do I understand this correctly, if they swoop places Raikkonen would be 37 points behind Alonso with 8 races to go, and you would call that over?

Yes.

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#20 Seanspeed

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 16:01

Yes.

37 points behind with 8 races to go and its over for Kimi

BUT

88 points behind with 9 races to go and Grosjean still has a shot?

:confused: :lol:

Anyways, yea, Lotus would be justified in asking Grosjean to move over. And while I dont believe he'd ignore the order, if he did, I'd lose a fair bit of respect for him.

Edited by Seanspeed, 17 August 2012 - 16:02.


#21 Trust

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 16:27

37 points behind with 8 races to go and its over for Kimi

BUT

88 points behind with 9 races to go and Grosjean still has a shot?

:confused: :lol:

Anyways, yea, Lotus would be justified in asking Grosjean to move over. And while I dont believe he'd ignore the order, if he did, I'd lose a fair bit of respect for him.

Quite clearly, he's speaking nonsense.

#22 DaddyCool

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:03

As a Kimi fan, I think they shouldn't swap, mostly for reasons korzeniow mentioned. (Grosjean is a long-term investment, whereas Kimi is not). It's still a very hard choice, interesting that the poll is so close.



#23 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:15

37 points behind with 8 races to go and its over for Kimi

BUT

88 points behind with 9 races to go and Grosjean still has a shot?

:confused: :lol:

Anyways, yea, Lotus would be justified in asking Grosjean to move over. And while I dont believe he'd ignore the order, if he did, I'd lose a fair bit of respect for him.

I don't think Grosjean has a realistic shot at the title either. Only mathematically. But as long as both have a mathematical shot at it, then there's no point in team orders. Understood?

#24 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:17

Quite clearly, he's speaking nonsense.

No I'm not. I never said Grosjean was going to win the title. But mathematically he still could, and it would make no sense to destroy his morale and cause a bad atmosphere in the team by telling him to move over for Raikkonen. If Grosjean was mathematically out of contention, then fine, let Raikkonen past.

#25 Wander

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:20

You don't know what you're talking about. Then again, you believe that Grosjean will outscore Räikkönen on the second half so it's not a surprise.

#26 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:24

You don't know what you're talking about. Then again, you believe that Grosjean will outscore Räikkönen on the second half so it's not a surprise.

I do know what I'm talking about. I also believe that Grosjean will outscore Raikkonen, because everything I have seen so far indicates to me that Grosjean is a better, faster driver. I also think Raikkonen is a vile person. Unless you have access to a crystal ball, you can't say I'm wrong about Grosjean outscoring him.

#27 garoidb

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:26

Raikkonen is very much in contention, not just mathematically. Grosjean is not.

#28 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:28

Raikkonen is very much in contention, not just mathematically. Grosjean is not.

As long as both are mathematically in contention - and they are - there should be no team orders. You never know what might happen.

#29 DarkknightRises

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:30

I do know what I'm talking about. I also believe that Grosjean will outscore Raikkonen, because everything I have seen so far indicates to me that Grosjean is a better, faster driver. I also think Raikkonen is a vile person. Unless you have access to a crystal ball, you can't say I'm wrong about Grosjean outscoring him.


enlighten me on how romain outscored kimi when his race pace has often been trashed by Kimi ?? And it seems that kimi has pick up his qualifying performance too~


#30 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:34

enlighten me on how romain outscored kimi when his race pace has often been trashed by Kimi ?? And it seems that kimi has pick up his qualifying performance too~

He hasn't outscored him yet. I think he will though. The gap in performance is not nearly as big as the points gap would suggest - Grosjean has lost many points due to unlucky incidents (not all were his fault) and was robbed of at least second place in Valencia. Raikkonen has been luckier. I can't remember one race where Grosjean was 'trashed' by Raikkonen, they've mostly been very close. Grosjean has also shown superior qualifying pace and tyre preservation more often than not.

Edited by TFLB, 17 August 2012 - 17:34.


#31 Seanspeed

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:37

I don't think Grosjean has a realistic shot at the title either.

But Kimi does. A very realistic one.

You don't know what you're talking about. Then again, you believe that Grosjean will outscore Räikkönen on the second half so it's not a surprise.

I dont see whats so absurd about that. He nearly did it in the 1st half of the season.

I also think Raikkonen is a vile person.

Thats really not relevant to the discussion in any way at all.

At least we can safely ignore your opinion on anything Raikkonen-related in the future, though.

#32 DarkknightRises

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:41

He hasn't outscored him yet. I think he will though. The gap in performance is not nearly as big as the points gap would suggest - Grosjean has lost many points due to unlucky incidents (not all were his fault) and was robbed of at least second place in Valencia. Raikkonen has been luckier. I can't remember one race where Grosjean was 'trashed' by Raikkonen, they've mostly been very close. Grosjean has also shown superior qualifying pace and tyre preservation more often than not.


I believe Romain wasnt on the same pace as kimi in bahrain, shanghai ( until the team screw up), hockeinham, hungary !! All these races kimi outraced romain by half a sec, im looking at the live timing as race progresses so im well aware!!

Kimi is luckier??? The team often pit him late and stuck him behind traffics, not to mention how many kers failure has it beens for kimi???? And differential failure for kimi in montreal during qualifying, despite that kimi still 1 tenth of the pace of qualifying!! Wrong steerings setup for kimi in monaco, wrong strategies, slow pit stops~~~

Romain wasted many points due to his mistakes~~

#33 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:42

But Kimi does. A very realistic one.

But that doesn't excuse team orders. Team orders should only be used if one driver is mathematically out of contention. At least, that's my opinion. If you think it does, then okay, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Thats really not relevant to the discussion in any way at all.

At least we can safely ignore your opinion on anything Raikkonen-related in the future, though.

I fully admit that I can't stand Raikkonen, I think he's rude and arrogant and I hate his tattoos and drinking habits. However, my stance would be the same on team orders no matter who the drivers involved were.

#34 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:47

I believe Romain wasnt on the same pace as kimi in bahrain, shanghai ( until the team screw up), hockeinham, hungary !! All these races kimi outraced romain by half a sec, im looking at the live timing as race progresses so im well aware!!

Kimi is luckier??? The team often pit him late and stuck him behind traffics, not to mention how many kers failure has it beens for kimi???? And differential failure for kimi in montreal during qualifying, despite that kimi still 1 tenth of the pace of qualifying!! Wrong steerings setup for kimi in monaco, wrong strategies, slow pit stops~~~

Romain wasted many points due to his mistakes~~

In Bahrain they were close on pace, Raikkonen slightly faster but the gap exaggerated by Grosjean backing off to preserve his car and tyres after the final stops. In Shanghai Grosjean was right behind Raikkonen being held up almost all the race, and I don't know how many times this needs to be said: THERE WAS NO TEAM MISTAKE. The team said afterwards that the tyres could have done many more laps (evidenced by Grosjean, who did more laps on them than Kimi) and the ONLY problem was Raikkonen's mistake when he ran wide and picked up marbles.

Raikkonen is luckier in terms of first lap incidents and reliability. Plus several of his so-called reliability issues like KERS failures have been later disproved by the team.

#35 DarkknightRises

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:49

But that doesn't excuse team orders. Team orders should only be used if one driver is mathematically out of contention. At least, that's my opinion. If you think it does, then okay, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I fully admit that I can't stand Raikkonen, I think he's rude and arrogant and I hate his tattoos and drinking habits. However, my stance would be the same on team orders no matter who the drivers involved were.


Some people enjoy beautiful lies~~ I dont see any problem with his attitude!! He said it as it were, no bs, no pretentious, no decorations!! Any mistake from the team he nvr blame them and instead blame himself!!

And kimi doesnt need any team orders, unless the team take the initiative, kimi will just race fairly~~ and always finish in front of Romain!! No worries on that~~


#36 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:54

Some people enjoy beautiful lies~~ I dont see any problem with his attitude!! He said it as it were, no bs, no pretentious, no decorations!! Any mistake from the team he nvr blame them and instead blame himself!!

And kimi doesnt need any team orders, unless the team take the initiative, kimi will just race fairly~~ and always finish in front of Romain!! No worries on that~~

The bolded bit is not really true.

#37 DarkknightRises

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:55

In Bahrain they were close on pace, Raikkonen slightly faster but the gap exaggerated by Grosjean backing off to preserve his car and tyres after the final stops. In Shanghai Grosjean was right behind Raikkonen being held up almost all the race, and I don't know how many times this needs to be said: THERE WAS NO TEAM MISTAKE. The team said afterwards that the tyres could have done many more laps (evidenced by Grosjean, who did more laps on them than Kimi) and the ONLY problem was Raikkonen's mistake when he ran wide and picked up marbles.

Raikkonen is luckier in terms of first lap incidents and reliability. Plus several of his so-called reliability issues like KERS failures have been later disproved by the team.


hahahahahhahaha, now you give credit to luck!! First time you can claim it as luck...subsequent incident you can only blame it on himself making mistakes!! Did the team disproved any of the kers failure so far??? well, it was clearly written on their race report so i didn't know what on earth you are talking about!!

How did you know kimi wasnt preserving his tyre in bahrain??? typical excuses~~ romain was nvr close to kimi on bahrain...the margin is too big for excuses like preserving tyres etc~~ If romain was preserving his tyre, he should reveal his true pace at some point of the race like kimi did in hungary!!

in hungary the marign is 10 sec despite kimi running on dirty air behind hamilton while romain running on clear air on the last stint~!!

#38 DarkknightRises

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:56

The bolded bit is not really true.


oh really?? 9 out of 11~~ you do the probabilities!! And even without incidents, romain was outraced by kimi!! i can only see kimi keep improving, while romain remain grounded and slipped back~~

#39 Seanspeed

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 17:57

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#40 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 18:07

oh really?? 9 out of 11~~ you do the probabilities!! And even without incidents, romain was outraced by kimi!! i can only see kimi keep improving, while romain remain grounded and slipped back~~

Sorry, who's the world champion who's ageing and won't improve and who's the rookie? Plus it's not really 9 out of 11 when you don't count the ones Grosjean didn't finish through no fault of his own.

#41 Kraze

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 18:21

Sorry, who's the world champion who's ageing and won't improve and who's the rookie? Plus it's not really 9 out of 11 when you don't count the ones Grosjean didn't finish through no fault of his own.


you sound a bit like Ro Gro's manager Eric Boullier :lol:

It was not luck but immaturity that led to his accidents (except the collision with Maldanado).


#42 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 18:23

(except the collision with Maldanado).

And the one where he was pushed into Schumacher by a Ferrari. And the one where his alternator failed when victory was a possibility.

#43 Kraze

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 18:26

About this position swap.. Lotus have shown this year they wont be blindly supporting and wont be using dirty tactics to promote Kimi. I'd guess those kind of things only happens in a Red team

#44 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 18:27

About this position swap.. Lotus have shown this year they wont be blindly supporting and wont be using dirty tactics to promote Kimi. I'd guess those kind of things only happens in a Red team

And it should stay that way.

#45 Kraze

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 18:29

And the one where he was pushed into Schumacher by a Ferrari.


if you're talking about Monaco then it was his fault. that Ferrari already overtook him at the start.

#46 Juggles

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 18:35

Grosjean is on exactly the same points as Button; both have no chance whatsoever of winning the championship. We are getting towards the sharp end of the season now and as Raikkonen is still in the title hunt Lotus should get him in front of Grosjean if the win is at stake (only the win, not for second, third or any other position).

As Raikkonen is only one point behind Hamilton and I argued just a couple of weeks ago that Button should let Hamilton past for the win in Hungary if required, it would be hypocritical to argue otherwise.

#47 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 18:41

Grosjean is on exactly the same points as Button; both have no chance whatsoever of winning the championship. We are getting towards the sharp end of the season now and as Raikkonen is still in the title hunt Lotus should get him in front of Grosjean if the win is at stake (only the win, not for second, third or any other position).

As Raikkonen is only one point behind Hamilton and I argued just a couple of weeks ago that Button should let Hamilton past for the win in Hungary if required, it would be hypocritical to argue otherwise.

But it's not over until it's over is it? You never know what could happen.

Another thing for Lotus to consider is that telling Grosjean to give up a win would probably not do any wonders at all for his confidence, and that could cost them points in the constructor's championship later.

#48 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 18:55

But it's not over until it's over is it? You never know what could happen.

Another thing for Lotus to consider is that telling Grosjean to give up a win would probably not do any wonders at all for his confidence, and that could cost them points in the constructor's championship later.


You can't know, but betting that RG will not be WDC would be quite safe.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 17 August 2012 - 18:55.


#49 TFLB

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 18:57

You can't know, but betting that RG will not be WDC would be quite safe.

I don't think he will be world champion, of course not. But as long as there is still a mathematical chance, then no team orders should be applied. Same with Mclaren, RBR, etc.

#50 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
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  • 4,762 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 August 2012 - 19:07

I don't think he will be world champion, of course not. But as long as there is still a mathematical chance, then no team orders should be applied. Same with Mclaren, RBR, etc.


I disagree, which is not news :)