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What's happened here to Henry's bent eight?


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#1 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 21:56

I came across this on another forum:

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Is it some kind of semi-ohv conversion, or just one man's way of decorating his Ford V8. I'm sure Magoo will be able to tell us...

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#2 Magoo

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 23:44

Less there than meets the eye, perhaps. Those are Tommy Thickstun covers which fit over stock or aftermarket flathead cylinder heads. Originally devised for marine use to shield the plugs and wires against water among other things, but then became popular as dress-up items due to their exotic, sorta overhead valve look.

Speaking of weird antique speed equipment for the flathead Ford V8, look at this.


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#3 Fat Boy

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 00:58

Please tell me you own that.

#4 Tony Matthews

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:18

:)

#5 Magoo

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:14

Please tell me you own that.


No, the guy wants stupid money so I passed. There are one or two other sets known to exist.

The weird part is that no family members purport to know anything about it. Our name, our town, but ?

#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:03

Originally posted by Magoo
Less there than meets the eye, perhaps. Those are Tommy Thickstun covers which fit over stock or aftermarket flathead cylinder heads. Originally devised for marine use to shield the plugs and wires against water among other things, but then became popular as dress-up items due to their exotic, sorta overhead valve look.....


Thanks for that, I figured they were a dress-up of some kind rather than the real thing...

That manifold's a neat find, I hope you find another one that's easier to acquire one day.

#7 Fat Boy

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 17:08

No, the guy wants stupid money so I passed. There are one or two other sets known to exist.

The weird part is that no family members purport to know anything about it. Our name, our town, but ?



There just is no justice on this planet.

#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 18:01

That's what the guy who owns it is probably thinking...

"That McGuire jerk should have offered me more than I'm asking!"

#9 munks

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 18:10

No, the guy wants stupid money so I passed. There are one or two other sets known to exist.

The weird part is that no family members purport to know anything about it. Our name, our town, and I'm special, but ?


FTFY.

#10 Magoo

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 21:02

FTFY.


Sorry if I kicked your dog. As you know, Toledo is not a very big town and it's interesting that none of us knew of this item until recently.


#11 Magoo

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 21:06

That's what the guy who owns it is probably thinking...

"That McGuire jerk should have offered me more than I'm asking!"


To be honest it's a poor design. The bolt-on top plate is intended to provide for different carb configurations but they all position the carb throats poorly relative to the intake ports via a shallow single-plane plenum chamber. I'm guessing the idle is rough and the mixture distribution is really odd.


#12 desmo

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 21:43

FTFY.


I'm trying to figure out a way this wasn't just being a douchebag. Maybe failed humor attempt?


#13 Magoo

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 22:37

I'm trying to figure out a way this wasn't just being a douchebag. Maybe failed humor attempt?


Munks is my bud, no worries. Besides, I stood him up at a car show a few weeks ago so I have it coming.

#14 desmo

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 23:28

Ah.. backstory. That's why I don't want to jump to any conclusions without context.

#15 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 00:35

Does he always get upset like that?

Or is it just on threads I start?

I sure hope his dog's better now...

#16 munks

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 05:21

I'm trying to figure out a way this wasn't just being a douchebag. Maybe failed humor attempt?


Perhaps failed humor. But did you notice that the piece actually says "McGuire Special" at the top?

Anyway, the Toledo connection is interesting. And I imagine there's no chance they mean Toledo, Ontario ...


#17 Tony Matthews

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 06:29

And I imagine there's no chance they mean Toledo, Ontario ...

...or Toledo, Spain.

#18 Magoo

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:51

Perhaps failed humor. But did you notice that the piece actually says "McGuire Special" at the top?


Still working above the room I see. Maybe you could slow it down once in a while so the rest of us can keep up. We're not that sharp.

#19 Tony Matthews

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:07

:rotfl: Well, that's cheered me up!

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#20 Peter Leversedge

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:35

Most likelly a two piece manifold which would have made it easy to cast. I have seen several made that way but never used one myself. I had a "log" manifold with two carbs that worked well on a car I had . I can't remember the brand but it is still on the car after over 45 years. The car in my profile photo has a Allard manifold with two carbs. It was on the car when I aquired the car in 1965 and has always worked okay. The engine is bored to 3 3/8 " and has a 4 " crank from a 49' Mercury which makes it 286 C I. Being an "Allard" manifold I guess it was OME on an English Allard.

#21 Peter Leversedge

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:42

Anyone here had OHV heads on a Flathead that worked well?

#22 munks

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:48

Still working above the room I see. Maybe you could slow it down once in a while so the rest of us can keep up. We're not that sharp.


I think the only thing I'm doing fast here is digging a hole, so I'll stop now.

#23 ray b

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 19:23

Anyone here had OHV heads on a Flathead that worked well?


ZORA'S WORKED OK CALLED ARDUN HEADS
Zora Arkus Duntov, WAS LATER CHEF AT CORVETTE

Edited by ray b, 22 August 2012 - 19:33.


#24 Magoo

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 20:09

Most likelly a two piece manifold which would have made it easy to cast. I have seen several made that way but never used one myself.


Yes, it's pretty much as you'd expect... though in looking at the photo today I see a longitudinal mouse wall I hadn't noticed before/forgot/whatever, which is a step in the right direction.


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#25 PJGD

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:52

Well, that's the thing about Zora, he was always cooking up something at Chevrolet :lol:



#26 Peter Leversedge

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:56

I understand a company in the eastern US is making Ardun heads again


#27 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 09:59

There is a thread on here with OHV sidevalves! in production cars in Argentina?
I forget now but they seemed a development of the Ardun heads.
I think Zora was playing with them before his exploits at GM with that unusual engine. The small block Chev!

#28 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 22:35

In the Chrysler Esplanada...

It was Chrysler's way of making the SIMCA-modified V8-60 a more modern power unit when they extended the life of the SIMCA Vedette. They bought the rights, I gather, to the Ardun heads for the V8-60 model, I reckon it would be a very interesting engine in a hot rod.

#29 Magoo

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 11:37

Since you guys are hardcore, more Ford V8 lore here:

Spotter's Guide to the 1937-1940 Fords | Mac's Motor City Garage

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I am considering a piece on the various overhead conversions for the Ford V8... what do you think? Much interest?



#30 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 05:56

Since you guys are hardcore, more Ford V8 lore here:

Spotter's Guide to the 1937-1940 Fords | Mac's Motor City Garage

Posted Image


I am considering a piece on the various overhead conversions for the Ford V8... what do you think? Much interest?

I only knew of the Ardun one, as well as the Simca version far later.
So lets see it.

#31 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 06:54

I think following the convoluted route that saw Chrysler making Ford's V8s well into the late sixties (in both sizes...) on two different continents makes an interesting story in itself... that one of them used the Ardun conversion is even better...

Were there others? Well, of course, I know about the Tornado OHV heads, but other than them?

#32 Magoo

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 12:59

Stephens, Maxi, Dixon, to name a few.

#33 packapoo

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 05:36

We'll be seeing the results of your efforts then? Please.

#34 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 06:51

At least the Tornado heads were unique...

Designed to use in a speedboat (named Tornado, naturally enough), they did good service in series of cars. But when the Corvette engine became available they were thrown into a road car... and later discarded, AFAIK. The patterns, too.

#35 Magoo

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 12:10

We'll be seeing the results of your efforts then? Please.


It will take some weeks to put together, esp the photos. Stay tuned.

The performance record of these conversions is not terribly impressive, to be honest. The Ardun was retailed in rather crude form and took some work for racing use. Some of these conversions -- Maxi and Ardun are two -- were designed and marketed not so much for performance but for HD truck use, to get the exhaust valves out of the block to stop overworking the cooling system.

In a way it comes down to this... you can do the perfect OHV conversion but at the end of the day you still have to bolt it onto a Ford short block. When the Detroit overheads began to arrive in 1949 -- Cadillac, Olds, Chrysler, and then Chevy -- they obsoleted the Ford in most every way.

In the meantime please check out all the Ford and related stories at MCG.

#36 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 23:43

The Lou Abrahams Tornado heads were, in fact, pretty successful...

They were built in the late forties and remained on the car through a couple of forms until 1956 or perhaps early 1957. After an horrendous crash at Bathurst in 1955 a new chassis was built and the car was lapping in times better than 2m 10s at Albert Park in the Australian Grand Prix of 1956. For reference, Stirling Moss in a 250F blew everyone into the weeds that day and left the lap record at 1:52.2.

By that time Abrahams had grafted fuel injection onto the engine.

#37 Bob Riebe

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 04:12

I understand a company in the eastern US is making Ardun heads again

Ardun

They were going to produce an aluminum block (usable for OHV only) but that seems to have died.

#38 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 07:13

Originally posted by Magoo
.....Some of these conversions -- Maxi and Ardun are two -- were designed and marketed not so much for performance but for HD truck use, to get the exhaust valves out of the block to stop overworking the cooling system.....


The same is true of the Roof conversion for T-Models, a 4-valve ohc setup...

Their advertisement in the 1919 Pears Cyclopedia highlights the profit-improving potential when used on trucks. I've previously posted a copy of this advertisement.

.....In a way it comes down to this... you can do the perfect OHV conversion but at the end of the day you still have to bolt it onto a Ford short block. When the Detroit overheads began to arrive in 1949 -- Cadillac, Olds, Chrysler, and then Chevy -- they obsoleted the Ford in most every way.


Include Ford's own Y-block monster in that, of course...

Indeed, the long stroke and general pre-war build, along with very heavy castings, made it hard to realise great potential. When the Tornado was fitted with a Chev it was every bit as quick as the fastest Maserati 250Fs.

#39 Magoo

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 11:01

Where this whole tale began -- with the original Ford V8 of 1932. Here are some facts 'n photos you mightn't never saw before...

LINK Another look at the 1932 Ford | Mac's Motor City Garage


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#40 Peter Leversedge

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 11:39

I owned a 1939 V8 Standard Coupe back in the 60's. One car I wish I still had today.............
At the time I was a mechanic working for a Ford dealer and used it to haul the car in my profile photo which was powered by a engine built on a "99" [ 39' Mercury ] block bored to 3 3/8 and fitted 4" crank [ 49' Mercury ] which gave it 286 CI

#41 Magoo

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 16:17

Our conversation here about Ardun Ford V8s made this thing suddenly pop into my mind. This will make you laugh out loud. It's a beautifully constructed 1/3 scale Ardun V8 and it runs and everything, but that's not the half of it. It's how it sounds: totally badass. Cracks me up every time I listen to it. The builder is Ron Bement.


Video: tiny Ardun V8 --- hear it roar! | Mac's Motor City Garage


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#42 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 09:34

Are the bore and stroke to scale too?

A lot of work, you really need to give full marks to people who do this sort of thing...

#43 Tony Matthews

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 10:48

It's only the castings that are 1:3, all the internals are full size, hence the lovely sound.

#44 Magoo

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 11:29

This engine reminds me of the smallest guy in the bar picking a fight with the biggest. Makes me laugh like a dope every time I hear it run.

#45 Kelpiecross

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 04:23

It's only the castings that are 1:3, all the internals are full size, hence the lovely sound.


The "internals" are full size? How can this be?

#46 Catalina Park

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 04:30

Yes, it's like "goldy" and "bronzy" only it's made out of iron.

#47 gruntguru

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:24

It's only the castings that are 1:3, all the internals are full size, hence the lovely sound.

:)

Thanks Tony. Made me smile - yet again.

#48 gruntguru

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:25

The "internals" are full size? How can this be?


Very thick-walled castings on those old timers.

#49 Magoo

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 11:48

This same guy, Ron Bement, has also done a scale Offy and a standard (as in non-Ardun) Ford flathead V8. Also built an exceptional '32 roadster back in the '80s. He's not as well known as some, but he's undoubtedly one of the top craftsmen in the hot rodding world. Unbelievable work.


Our conversation here about Ardun Ford V8s made this thing suddenly pop into my mind. This will make you laugh out loud. It's a beautifully constructed 1/3 scale Ardun V8 and it runs and everything, but that's not the half of it. It's how it sounds: totally badass. Cracks me up every time I listen to it. The builder is Ron Bement.


Video: tiny Ardun V8 --- hear it roar! | Mac's Motor City Garage


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#50 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:30

Will you be around Motor City on October 14 or 15, Maguire?

It would be nice to catch up as I head through there...