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N Piquet Jr criticises 'weak' and 'lucky' Lotus duo [split]


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#101 sailor

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 13:29

This is lacking depth, I'm afraid. IOW's, it's not that simple. Kimi may not be weak but he has not pulled off what any other driver couldn't. Give us a big break there. Schumacher isn't the one driving that Lotus and even Kimi himself alluded to this when asked about Schumacher's comeback in light of his. He said it's easier to get the results on a return when you have a good car. I just beg for some depth here where you include the car performance factor when assessing driver results.


Thats why I compared to the only other somewhat meaningful comparison - Schumi - The only top driver making a comeback.
I know they are driving different cars but Rosberg showed that the car is capable on atleast 3-4 occasions - so Schumi could have been on the podium more often after 3 years.

Kimi has certainly done something which is quite a difficult feat anyway you look at it. Even coming to a new midfield team with limited resources and challenging consistently for the title by half season is difficult.
To do it after being away from F1 when regs and the equipment changed drastically is certainly to be applauded. Maybe Alonso can do the same but not many others .


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#102 Kvothe

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 13:36

But this is just it. When the car does perform well in qualifying then Grosjean sticks it where it belongs, only to mess it up in the race with an incident or poor pace. Kimi is the opposite, no pace in qualifying but fast in the race.

That car should have won multiple races already, that it hasn't is testament to the drivers being poor in one form or the other. I see nothing wrong with what Piquet Jr said.

:up:

#103 Oho

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 13:40

Grosjean worked as a test driver in the same team than NPJ and then drove his car in 2009, so Piquet is surely in a position to know better than any of us about Grosjean. His opinion is based in his first hand experience with both drivers as a racing driver in F1, so it is as valuable as it gets as an opinion.


It is? You assume not only honesty but also lack of bias, both of which assumptions seem pretty tall order.

#104 ali_M

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:17

Thats why I compared to the only other somewhat meaningful comparison - Schumi - The only top driver making a comeback.
I know they are driving different cars but Rosberg showed that the car is capable on atleast 3-4 occasions - so Schumi could have been on the podium more often after 3 years.

Kimi has certainly done something which is quite a difficult feat anyway you look at it. Even coming to a new midfield team with limited resources and challenging consistently for the title by half season is difficult.
To do it after being away from F1 when regs and the equipment changed drastically is certainly to be applauded. Maybe Alonso can do the same but not many others .


It's not about resources and team size. It's about the car's competitiveness. Toyota and Honda's resource might didn't bring them success.

Lotus have a competitive car this season. There is no doubt about this. It's more competitive than the Williams and yet, they have a convincing victory while Lotus do not yet have one. I think you are using a presumed handicap from a comeback without being genuinely able to quantify it or confirm its existence. Kimi himself admitted that it took him a short time to come up to speed and that he's driving as he used to. He himself admitted that he has a good car driving and that it does assist in his performance since his return to the sport and that Michael isn't having it as easy since it's quite clear that the MGP is a handful.

It's been long now since it's as if Kimi had not left. This isn't at all surprising since he's still young and he wasn't out fishing while away from F1. He was rallying. He's driving as he did while at Ferrari before he left. He's trying to get the Lotus steering up to the standard he enjoyed at the front running teams. It's not like he's behind in the technology etc. Too many excuses in a car that's going so well.

#105 ali_M

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:20

It is? You assume not only honesty but also lack of bias, both of which assumptions seem pretty tall order.


And what of the opposing opinions here? Are we to assume that they are honest and not lacking in bias? Please give us a break now. The man's opinion is as good as any here. Put your arguments forward rather than empty sanctimony.

Edited by ali_M, 23 August 2012 - 14:23.


#106 BruisedLee

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:26

It is? You assume not only honesty but also lack of bias, both of which assumptions seem pretty tall order.

Lack of bias in an opinion is an unicorn concept. I only assume his opinion is valuable.


#107 bub

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:28

Lotus have a competitive car this season. There is no doubt about this. It's more competitive than the Williams and yet, they have a convincing victory while Lotus do not yet have one.


Williams having a convincing win tells you something though. The tyre have made a big difference so far. Circumstances play a part. Mercedes had a very convincing victory also. That also tells you something. Wins aren't the most important thing. It's about points. No Williams driver is ahead of Kimi in points. In fact if you look at the guys ahead of Kimi they are pretty good drivers in pretty good cars & teams.

#108 sailor

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:31

Lack of bias in an opinion is an unicorn concept. I only assume his opinion is valuable.


But thats your opinion .

#109 DarkknightRises

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:33

Williams having a convincing win tells you something though. The tyre have made a big difference so far. Circumstances play a part. Mercedes had a very convincing victory also. That also tells you something. Wins aren't the most important thing. It's about points. No Williams driver is ahead of Kimi in points. In fact if you look at the guys ahead of Kimi they are pretty good drivers in pretty good cars & teams.


Many ppls forgot how close the field was~~ they assuming Lotus was 1 or 2 sec faster than everyone else in every race which is not true!! In front of them there's still mclaren, rbr and ferrari that are very close with each other but with Rbr and Mclaren edging top due to their poles potentials!! Lotus is no doubt quick on race but they do not hv potential for poles due to their softness on tyre which allow them to run longer on tyre!!

As usual, kimi will be blamed for everything eventhough the team messed up strategies in bahrain, barcelona, shanghai, hockeinham, silverstone etc

And not even 1 blame from him on the team, he just took it like a man while others continue to blame him like bitches!!


#110 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:34

Williams having a convincing win tells you something though. The tyre have made a big difference so far. Circumstances play a part. Mercedes had a very convincing victory also. That also tells you something. Wins aren't the most important thing. It's about points. No Williams driver is ahead of Kimi in points. In fact if you look at the guys ahead of Kimi they are pretty good drivers in pretty good cars & teams.


OK, we all agree that Kimi is better than Maldonado and Senna


#111 Oho

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:35

Lack of bias in an opinion is an unicorn concept. I only assume his opinion is valuable.


No you didn't you assumed it is the most valuable opinion, presumably because you tend to agree with him.

Its like the bloody dissertation reading instruction again:

It is widely known - I think that
Experts agree - Couple of my buddies think so too.

#112 DarkknightRises

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:37

i think kimi should just quit F1 ~~~ many peoples failed to extract max from their car bar Alonso, but it seems that kimi was heavily abused !! Since he's that weak, he should just quit the sport and enjoy rally!! with all the fortunes he made, its not like he's driving for money at the moment!!

I think he extracted more than the car capable in race compared to Romain (it wasnt until kimi's ultimate pace in bahrain, ppl start flattering the car performance), and now they took away his credit and place them on the car!!

Typical Kimi haters, they can blame kimi for having luck but failed to do the same for Alonso~~ double standards hypocrites


Edited by DarkknightRises, 23 August 2012 - 14:45.


#113 Ferrari2183

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:42

Many ppls forgot how close the field was~~ they assuming Lotus was 1 or 2 sec faster than everyone else in every race which is not true!! In front of them there's still mclaren, rbr and ferrari that are very close with each other but with Rbr and Mclaren edging top due to their poles potentials!! Lotus is no doubt quick on race but they do not hv potential for poles due to their softness on tyre which allow them to run longer on tyre!!

As usual, kimi will be blamed for everything eventhough the team messed up strategies in bahrain, barcelona, shanghai, hockeinham, silverstone etc

And not even 1 blame from him on the team, he just took it like a man while others continue to blame him like bitches!!

Nobody is saying that the Lotus is that much quicker than the other cars but judging from the pace Raikkonen had in Hungary (for which a Lotus team member just recently said that had Hamilton not been in front they would have disappeared into the distance) and Grosjean's grid slot a Lotus should have won that race.

#114 ali_M

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:44

Williams having a convincing win tells you something though. The tyre have made a big difference so far. Circumstances play a part. Mercedes had a very convincing victory also. That also tells you something. Wins aren't the most important thing. It's about points. No Williams driver is ahead of Kimi in points. In fact if you look at the guys ahead of Kimi they are pretty good drivers in pretty good cars & teams.


Look how unhappy Kimi is when he comes second. It's then you realize that while the points tallies are nice, the wins are that much the nicer. All teams and drivers wish to WIN!! :cool:

#115 bub

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:48

Look how unhappy Kimi is when he comes second. It's then you realize that while the points tallies are nice, the wins are that much the nicer. All teams and drivers wish to WIN!! :cool:


Well if the Lotus is as good as some people think Kimi could keep racking up points and win the WDC :cool:

#116 DonaldDuck

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:57

But this is a constant problem with Kimi. He always has trouble in getting the tyres in their operating window... In fact, the only time I can remember when he didn't was on the Michelins and even then there was a season where he had difficulty and it was said it was because the car was too easy on the tyres. I call BS! It happened at Ferrari and it is happening now again. When the car has been capable Grosjean has stuck it at the sharp end numerous times so the tyre issues cannot be that bad.

Kimi is certainly a fast driver but in the above sense he is weak.


How do you know this is Kimi's weakness? Every driver have their weakness. Alonso hasnt been a great qualifier either, has he ? Vettel and Lewis stand out in qualifying, and that propels to the fact that they are better in heating up the tyres for one lap pace. Go back and watch 2011 once again and notice the difference between Button and Lewis. Lewis was consistently faster than Button, was outpaced in the races however, and this is not only races where he botched up, there are races like monza and suzuka where he was flattered by Button.

The fact is that every driver sets up the car according to thier strenthgts and weakness. Kimi doesnt emphasise on one lap pace in quali coz he sets up his car for the race. And he has ben proved right this season. Just look at Bahrain and the last race, and you will realise that he is outpacing Romain convincingly. So its not hunky dory to qualify at the front and have supreme one lap pace. Prost had few poles as compared to Ayrton, but they were equally matched in races in 1988-1989.

You dont win points to one lap pace in qualy and heating up tyres. I hope you now this much.

Also, watch 2005 and see is performance in qualy. A typical scenario is like this:

Engine blows up in practice. The lad fuels heavily for qualy. The lad puts it on pole, or a top 2. Then he starts 11th or 12th. Mind you, he is the heaviest car at the track. And ends up at the podium. If that is not qualy greatness, then nothing else is. And please dont come back with the argument that he had the fastest car in 2005. Fastest car, but also the heaviest, heavier to avoid one stop. And you dont sit on pole without having the fastest car. But to sit on pole with huge tank of fuel is something remarkable

Edited by DonaldDuck, 23 August 2012 - 15:02.


#117 Kvothe

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:59

How do you know this is Kimi's weakness? Every driver have their weakness. Alonso hasnt been a great qualifier either, has he ? Vettel and Lewis stand out in qualifying, and that propels to the fact that they are better in heating up the tyres for one lap pace. Go back and watch 2011 once again and notice the difference between Button and Lewis. Lewis was consistently faster than Button, was outpaced in the races however, and this is not only races where he botched up, there are races like monza and suzuka where he was flattered by Button.

The fact is that every driver sets up the car according to thier strenthgts and weakness. Kimi doesnt emphasise on one lap pace in quali coz he sets up his car for the race. And he has ben proved right this season. Just look at Bahrain and the last race, and you will realise that he is outpacing Romain convincingly. So its not hunky dory to qualify at the front and have supreme one lap pace. Prost had few poles as compared to Ayrton, but they were equally matched in races in 1988-1989.

You dont win points to one lap pace in qualy and heating up tyres. I hope you now this much.


(2011) In the dry Lewis was only outpaced in India and Sazuka.

Edited by Kvothe, 23 August 2012 - 15:00.


#118 DarkknightRises

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:02

Nobody is saying that the Lotus is that much quicker than the other cars but judging from the pace Raikkonen had in Hungary (for which a Lotus team member just recently said that had Hamilton not been in front they would have disappeared into the distance) and Grosjean's grid slot a Lotus should have won that race.


Do you witness the same pace in every race then??? Hungary 's condition is the same as bahrain, extreme hot !! Meaning the car is conditional quick, and yet ppls said they are the best car~~ LMAO

From the way you guys flattering the car, thats the kind of impression in my head!! That car must be 1 or 2 sec faster than the rest!!

#119 DonaldDuck

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:06

(2011) In the dry Lewis was only outpaced in India and Sazuka.


I dont think you watch races often enough. Monaco, Monza, Singapore 2011 and Austrlia 2012 are the ones you should ponder over.

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#120 RedOne

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:15

How do you know this is Kimi's weakness? Every driver have their weakness. Alonso hasnt been a great qualifier either, has he ? Vettel and Lewis stand out in qualifying, and that propels to the fact that they are better in heating up the tyres for one lap pace. Go back and watch 2011 once again and notice the difference between Button and Lewis. Lewis was consistently faster than Button, was outpaced in the races however, and this is not only races where he botched up, there are races like monza and suzuka where he was flattered by Button.

The fact is that every driver sets up the car according to thier strenthgts and weakness. Kimi doesnt emphasise on one lap pace in quali coz he sets up his car for the race. And he has ben proved right this season. Just look at Bahrain and the last race, and you will realise that he is outpacing Romain convincingly. So its not hunky dory to qualify at the front and have supreme one lap pace. Prost had few poles as compared to Ayrton, but they were equally matched in races in 1988-1989.

You dont win points to one lap pace in qualy and heating up tyres. I hope you now this much.

Also, watch 2005 and see is performance in qualy. A typical scenario is like this:

Engine blows up in practice. The lad fuels heavily for qualy. The lad puts it on pole, or a top 2. Then he starts 11th or 12th. Mind you, he is the heaviest car at the track. And ends up at the podium. If that is not qualy greatness, then nothing else is. And please dont come back with the argument that he had the fastest car in 2005. Fastest car, but also the heaviest, heavier to avoid one stop. And you dont sit on pole without having the fastest car. But to sit on pole with huge tank of fuel is something remarkable


I thought we were not comparing Alonso to Kimi until he reaches Kimi's hero level of having a WDC with Ferrari?

#121 Kvothe

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:17

I dont think you watch races often enough. Monaco, Monza, Singapore 2011 and Austrlia 2012 are the ones you should ponder over.


Monaco, Lewis was stuck behind slower traffic on a track you can't overtake and started on the primes in comparison to Jenson who started on the softs, broke his front wing against Massa, got drive through, and than rear wing was destroyed and hastily put back together before he came together with Maldonado again, how can you say he was outpaced?.

Monza, stuck behind Michael Schumacher, many laps of fighting, on the lap where Michael complained about his tyres having gone he pushed Lewis onto the grass allowing Button to overtake him, and with his fresher tyres overtake Michael. When Lewis got past Michael he was the fastest guy on the track setting purple sector after purple sector. Can't really make a comparison

Singapore 2011, was about being squeezed out at the beginning, and than a collision with Massa that broke his front wing, and gave him a drive through, put him right back behind the field and meant he had to overtake the same cars all over again. Can't make a comparison

Why say Australia 2012 when I said 2011? But than ignore nearly every other race this season?

I humbly suggest you should go ponder over them first.

Edited by Kvothe, 23 August 2012 - 15:18.


#122 Trust

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:19

This year isn't comparable to any other years for tyres comparison. This year it's a lottery. For example, Hamilton couldn't put his tyres into right operating window in Bahrain, and his pace was awful, and he is agreessive driver who doesn't any help in heating them. So clearly, it doesn't have to do anything with heating.

#123 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:20

You can be over the window too.

#124 Ferrari2183

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:22

How do you know this is Kimi's weakness? Every driver have their weakness. Alonso hasnt been a great qualifier either, has he ? Vettel and Lewis stand out in qualifying, and that propels to the fact that they are better in heating up the tyres for one lap pace. Go back and watch 2011 once again and notice the difference between Button and Lewis. Lewis was consistently faster than Button, was outpaced in the races however, and this is not only races where he botched up, there are races like monza and suzuka where he was flattered by Button.

The fact is that every driver sets up the car according to thier strenthgts and weakness. Kimi doesnt emphasise on one lap pace in quali coz he sets up his car for the race. And he has ben proved right this season. Just look at Bahrain and the last race, and you will realise that he is outpacing Romain convincingly. So its not hunky dory to qualify at the front and have supreme one lap pace. Prost had few poles as compared to Ayrton, but they were equally matched in races in 1988-1989.

You dont win points to one lap pace in qualy and heating up tyres. I hope you now this much.

Also, watch 2005 and see is performance in qualy. A typical scenario is like this:

Engine blows up in practice. The lad fuels heavily for qualy. The lad puts it on pole, or a top 2. Then he starts 11th or 12th. Mind you, he is the heaviest car at the track. And ends up at the podium. If that is not qualy greatness, then nothing else is. And please dont come back with the argument that he had the fastest car in 2005. Fastest car, but also the heaviest, heavier to avoid one stop. And you dont sit on pole without having the fastest car. But to sit on pole with huge tank of fuel is something remarkable

Because he has had the same problem with multiple teams. It happened at McLaren, Ferrari and now Lotus with different tyre suppliers to boot... As I said it is a constant with Raikkonen.

All this about setup for this, setup for that is nothing but more Raikkonen excuses. Drivers should find the best possible compromise for both qualifying and race, not one or the other.

I'm not going to respond to your other points because this is not the Alonso thread and neither has 2005 anything to do with the Lotus.

#125 Ferrari2183

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:23

You can be over the window too.

Yeah, I think McLaren's problem was overheating the rears.

#126 DarkknightRises

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:25

I thought we were not comparing Alonso to Kimi until he reaches Kimi's hero level of having a WDC with Ferrari?


Thats just show Kimi has enormous speed~~ its easy when the mclaren car pretty much develop around him!! His qualification in 05 were really breathtaking....constantly running on poles despite hanging around with heavier fuel than the rest due to multiple engine failures than grant him multiple 10 grid penalties!! He lost that wdc due to car and engine reliability~~

The lotus was developed around no1, but romain said he involved in the car development in pre season!!

Im not going to deny kimi been inconsistent in quali, and im nt writing him off either as he infrequently shown some great pace in qualy for example hockeinham Q1, easily the fastest on medium tyres, others struggling to replicate the same on soft tyres!! But sadly, it rains afterwards....

Anyone writing off kimi is plain stupid, guy is one of the fastest and thats the fact!! he comin back after two years and is in contention for top 3 of wdc !! with remaining 9 races to go, there's all to play for!!



#127 Kvothe

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:28

You can be over the window too.


Indeed it's about managing the tyres.

Lewis spoke in Hungary about inducing understeer like JB does during the race to help preserve the tyres.

I think what we're seeing from the both Lotus drivers is an inability by both drivers to manage the tyres correctly one in qualifying and one during the race.
It's not saying that either is bad, with both out of F1 for 2 years they are still getting to grips with the tyres, but it does suggest that the full potential of the car is left untapped.

#128 DarkknightRises

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:30

Because he has had the same problem with multiple teams. It happened at McLaren, Ferrari and now Lotus with different tyre suppliers to boot... As I said it is a constant with Raikkonen.

All this about setup for this, setup for that is nothing but more Raikkonen excuses. Drivers should find the best possible compromise for both qualifying and race, not one or the other.

I'm not going to respond to your other points because this is not the Alonso thread and neither has 2005 anything to do with the Lotus.


I dont think he had that problem in mclaren~~ not in 03, 04, 05 and 06 im sure of it!! and the only time he had that problem in ferrari was 2008 when the team changed the infamous suspension and took them 8-9 races to place back the old suspension ( i dont know why)

And in Lotus, not only kimi hv that problem, romain was facing the same Bar hungary!! technical director of Lotus already admitted while their car was able to run more laps on the tyres, they failed to heat the tyre for 1 lap pace!! So, its not fair to assume that it was the driver problem and blame them solely for that when the car builder already clarified they knew the problem and they are working hard on solving it!! they do not want to compromise their tyre advantage either just for quali pace~~~

#129 Ferrari2183

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:30

Do you witness the same pace in every race then??? Hungary 's condition is the same as bahrain, extreme hot !! Meaning the car is conditional quick, and yet ppls said they are the best car~~ LMAO

From the way you guys flattering the car, thats the kind of impression in my head!! That car must be 1 or 2 sec faster than the rest!!

Here are Grosjean's best qualifying results

Australia - 3rd
Spain - 4th
Monaco - 5th
Europe - 4th
Hungary - 2nd

If Kimi had started Spain, Europe and Hungary in those positions he would have possibly won with the pace he showed in the races... Anyway, my point was that if Grosjean can stick the car at the sharp end then the tyre heating problem cannot be that bad.

#130 BruisedLee

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:31

No you didn't you assumed it is the most valuable opinion, presumably because you tend to agree with him.

Its like the bloody dissertation reading instruction again:

It is widely known - I think that
Experts agree - Couple of my buddies think so too.

His opinion is valuable regardless of what I think and I already gave a reason. As you said, I tend to agree with his opinion. If you don't, then you can give your own take instead of wandering in a galaxy far far away trying to dismiss mine using a fail analogy.

#131 BruisedLee

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:37

But thats your opinion .

No shit

#132 DarkknightRises

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:38

Here are Grosjean's best qualifying results

Australia - 3rd
Spain - 4th
Monaco - 5th
Europe - 4th
Hungary - 2nd

If Kimi had started Spain, Europe and Hungary in those positions he would have possibly won with the pace he showed in the races... Anyway, my point was that if Grosjean can stick the car at the sharp end then the tyre heating problem cannot be that bad.


yea, its nt that bad and kimi wasnt that far away either bar aus as he missed out Q1

spain - 5th
monaco - 8th
europe - 5th
hungary 5th

the tyre heating problem aint that bad if you are satisfy with top5 !! it will nvr gonna challenge mclaren for poles !! Anyway i get what you meant, kimi knews that qualification has been key, and its no secret he been outqualify by romain although nt by far margin!!

#133 Watkins74

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 16:14

I dont think he had that problem in mclaren~~ not in 03, 04, 05 and 06 im sure of it!! and the only time he had that problem in ferrari was 2008 when the team changed the infamous suspension and took them 8-9 races to place back the old suspension ( i dont know why)

And in Lotus, not only kimi hv that problem, romain was facing the same Bar hungary!! technical director of Lotus already admitted while their car was able to run more laps on the tyres, they failed to heat the tyre for 1 lap pace!! So, its not fair to assume that it was the driver problem and blame them solely for that when the car builder already clarified they knew the problem and they are working hard on solving it!! they do not want to compromise their tyre advantage either just for quali pace~~~

So it was 4 and now it is up to 8-9. Soon it will be all of 2008 and until Massa crashed in 2009. :lol:

#134 SpaMaster

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 17:14

Did he really say this though or did he simply say that Kimi is weak? I don't see where he gave a reason for the claimed weakness he perceives.

I must admit that for the pace that the Lotus has shown since season start, it's very disappointing that they don't have race wins to show for it. It's Kimi's reputation that is making this acceptable for some. I personally don't buy it.

Yes, that's what he says, cites the 2-year absence making a driver weak.

I don't see why Lotus should win as long as their driver is strongly in the title fight. They have only shown good race pace and not so good qualy pace. That is reflected in consistent performances that don't get you a win, but keeps right in the middle of title fight. Webber, Vettel and Hamilton, all with a win or more than one wins, are within 8 pts from Raikkonen. I don't see win is so important when Lotus is in the title fight as much as the winners., in some cases much more.

#135 korzeniow

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 17:15

Indeed it's about managing the tyres.

Lewis spoke in Hungary about inducing understeer like JB does during the race to help preserve the tyres.

I think what we're seeing from the both Lotus drivers is an inability by both drivers to manage the tyres correctly one in qualifying and one during the race.
It's not saying that either is bad, with both out of F1 for 2 years they are still getting to grips with the tyres, but it does suggest that the full potential of the car is left untapped.


How did you come to the conclusion that Grosjean can't manage the tyres during the races :confused:

#136 SpaMaster

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 17:27

He doesn't say there are many better drivers. He only compares Grosjean to Alonso and a 'weak' Kimi.

Just because a driver took 2 year break, he is weak? Non-sense. As I mentioned earlier, there are drivers who have won championships and races on their return.

I think I read the article right. You are the one 'seasoning' Piquet's comments (i.e. "He assumes it is the same Grosjean as in 2009").

This is what he said
His luck is that he was not doing well in F1, another season of GP2, landed a sponsorship deal and returned to F1 paying, right? Then things went right for, how do you say, in his career. The timing was very good for him.
He is giving his opinion of luck basing on the "he was not doing well in F1" 2009 season. Clear? Stop making random out-of-context inferences.

Grosjean worked as a test driver in the same team than NPJ and then drove his car in 2009, so Piquet is surely in a position to know better than any of us about Grosjean. His opinion is based in his first hand experience with both drivers as a racing driver in F1, so it is as valuable as it gets as an opinion. For more clarifications about his comments, you can contact him directly.

If that was Piquet's reasoning to evaluate Grosjean, it is even more ridiculous. He had Grosjean as a test driver alongside him. So what? Piquet was fired for Grosjean. Grosjean was not even a rookie then. If a disgruntled driver like Piquet knows that much, how much does the team that employed both of them and re-employing one of them again must know? That makes his opinion as invaluable as it can get! Besides, this is coming back to the point of passing comments based on Grosjean's 2009 season.

Edited by SpaMaster, 23 August 2012 - 17:30.


#137 Fontainebleau

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 17:55

Every driver have their weakness. Alonso hasnt been a great qualifier either, has he ?

Hasn't he? I remember some astonishing qualy laps by Alonso (for example Singapore 2010 or Barcelona 2011), so I would be very interesting in knowing what basis you have for this statement.

#138 DonaldDuck

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:19

Hasn't he? I remember some astonishing qualy laps by Alonso (for example Singapore 2010 or Barcelona 2011), so I would be very interesting in knowing what basis you have for this statement.


I said it in the context of comparing him with Kimi. Please read what is written carefully and attempt to understand the context in which a certain post is written

#139 Skinnyguy

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:30

Because he has had the same problem with multiple teams. It happened at McLaren, Ferrari and now Lotus with different tyre suppliers to boot.


Rubbish. He was outstanding in Saturday in 2001, straight on. Stunning all the way with McLaren. In fact, he looked as good as anyone else qualifying on that period, with kind on tyres cars -2005- and not that kind, with fast and not that fast cars, with whatever he got. He was perfectly OK in 2007 and early 2008. He was very poor in mid-late 2008. OK in 2009. He´s not top but OK now, in 2012.

So we have poor qualifying for 3/4 of 2008, and not top but OK performances now in 2012, and suddenly Kimi´s weak qualifying. Cool. :smoking:



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#140 DonaldDuck

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:36

Rubbish. He was outstanding in Saturday in 2001, straight on. Stunning all the way with McLaren. In fact, he looked as good as anyone else qualifying on that period, with kind on tyres cars -2005- and not that kind, with fast and not that fast cars, with whatever he got. He was perfectly OK in 2007 and early 2008. He was very poor in mid-late 2008. OK in 2009. He´s not top but OK now, in 2012.

So we have poor qualifying for 3/4 of 2008, and not top but OK performances now in 2012, and suddenly Kimi´s weak qualifying. Cool. :smoking:


Not to forget 2005. He was epic that season. But Ferrari 2183 conveniently chose to ignore that. I remember there were days when the Mclaren would just have some or the other blow up. No matter. The boy would step in, pound the fastest lap, and step out. Those were the days when Mr. Complete used to throw tantrums at his team

#141 SpaMaster

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:38

But this is a constant problem with Kimi. He always has trouble in getting the tyres in their operating window... In fact, the only time I can remember when he didn't was on the Michelins and even then there was a season where he had difficulty and it was said it was because the car was too easy on the tyres. I call BS! It happened at Ferrari and it is happening now again. When the car has been capable Grosjean has stuck it at the sharp end numerous times so the tyre issues cannot be that bad.

Kimi is certainly a fast driver but in the above sense he is weak.

That's BS actually. Ferrari was also kind on the tyres, just like Lotus is now. What is so difficult to understand here? I thought it perfectly falls in line. The only time he did not have problems was when he was on Michelins? Hellllo?? That is 5 long years! Reason is both the car and tyre had favourable characteristics to heat up then. If what you say is true about randomly happening again, it should have happened once in those 5 years. So, it is not a driver faltering randomly, there is a clear mechanical reason behind it.

Again with this Grosjean doing well in qualy: Many team personnel have explained that this is because Grosjean has a more aggressive style that helps him in qualy, while Kimi's smoother style helps him in race. Makes perfect sense to me. If it doesn't to you, too bad. This is not news in F1. It has been happening forever.. People continue to believe in this ideal perfect driver who is all-conquering. But there is no such thing. Schumacher, known to be the master of adapting, we have come to know now what sort of preferences he had in the past, and how they had tried to build the car around it. When he couldn't get heat into the tyres, there was a driver who put one on him majestically going down the Eau Rouge in 2004. Prost showed time and again what Senna lacked a little bit. Let's get off this dreamland and see driving for what it is.

#142 Ferrari2183

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:44

Rubbish. He was outstanding in Saturday in 2001, straight on. Stunning all the way with McLaren. In fact, he looked as good as anyone else qualifying on that period, with kind on tyres cars -2005- and not that kind, with fast and not that fast cars, with whatever he got. He was perfectly OK in 2007 and early 2008. He was very poor in mid-late 2008. OK in 2009. He´s not top but OK now, in 2012.

So we have poor qualifying for 3/4 of 2008, and not top but OK performances now in 2012, and suddenly Kimi´s weak qualifying. Cool. :smoking:



Not to forget 2005. He was epic that season. But Ferrari 2183 conveniently chose to ignore that. I remember there were days when the Mclaren would just have some or the other blow up. No matter. The boy would step in, pound the fastest lap, and step out. Those were the days when Mr. Complete used to throw tantrums at his team

What are the two of you on about? I'm talking about Kimi's never ending tyre heating issues. I used Grosjean as a benchmark to demonstrate that the tyre heating of the Lotus cannot be that bad because he has often put the car at the sharp end in quali.



#143 Ferrari2183

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:49

That's BS actually. Ferrari was also kind on the tyres, just like Lotus is now. What is so difficult to understand here? I thought it perfectly falls in line. The only time he did not have problems was when he was on Michelins? Hellllo?? That is 5 long years! Reason is both the car and tyre had favourable characteristics to heat up then. If what you say is true about randomly happening again, it should have happened once in those 5 years. So, it is not a driver faltering randomly, there is a clear mechanical reason behind it.

Again with this Grosjean doing well in qualy: Many team personnel have explained that this is because Grosjean has a more aggressive style that helps him in qualy, while Kimi's smoother style helps him in race. Makes perfect sense to me. If it doesn't to you, too bad. This is not news in F1. It has been happening forever.. People continue to believe in this ideal perfect driver who is all-conquering. But there is no such thing. Schumacher, known to be the master of adapting, we have come to know now what sort of preferences he had in the past, and how they had tried to build the car around it. When he couldn't get heat into the tyres, there was a driver who put one on him majestically going down the Eau Rouge in 2004. Prost showed time and again what Senna lacked a little bit. Let's get off this dreamland and see driving for what it is.

Yet this same kindness wasn't quite as prevalent with Massa... Come on man, Kimi always seems to have some kind of issue hindering him and it is for this reason that Massa beat him. The fact that Massa is still having similar issues doesn't shower Kimi in glory either.


#144 DonaldDuck

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:50

What are the two of you on about? I'm talking about Kimi's never ending tyre heating issues. I used Grosjean as a benchmark to demonstrate that the tyre heating of the Lotus cannot be that bad because he has often put the car at the sharp end in quali.


That is coz of Grow Johns aggressive driving which propels him in qualy. Or are you blind enough to see that ? And Kimi has just made a come back after two years in absence, it is obvious he would have taken some time to adapt, and now he is on it more or less. Off late he as been as quick or even quicker than his teammate. It would be interesting to see what Alonso does in rally for two years and how would his come back shape up ?

Let the season finish. If Kimi ends up outqualifying Romain then it wont be a pleasant sight for many out here

#145 Skinnyguy

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:52

What are the two of you on about? I'm talking about Kimi's never ending tyre heating issues.


Try again. Late 2008, over a 10 years long career. This year to a lesser extent. That´s it. :wave:

#146 DonaldDuck

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:52

Yet this same kindness wasn't quite as prevalent with Massa... Come on man, Kimi always seems to have some kind of issue hindering him and it is for this reason that Massa beat him. The fact that Massa is still having similar issues doesn't shower Kimi in glory either.


What about the front suspension which was changed ? Are you telling me you are ignoring the details due to which Kimi wasnt able to generate heat into his tyres ? It is there for everyone to see why he was not "allowed" to race Massa. I dont remember Kimi having any issues in 2005, 2006, 2004 or the rest of his Mclaren days. Why dont you generate data on this and debate ? Right now your arguments are a flack for desperation

#147 BruisedLee

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 18:57

Just because a driver took 2 year break, he is weak? Non-sense. As I mentioned earlier, there are drivers who have won championships and races on their return.


This is what he said
His luck is that he was not doing well in F1, another season of GP2, landed a sponsorship deal and returned to F1 paying, right? Then things went right for, how do you say, in his career. The timing was very good for him.
He is giving his opinion of luck basing on the "he was not doing well in F1" 2009 season. Clear? Stop making random out-of-context inferences.


If that was Piquet's reasoning to evaluate Grosjean, it is even more ridiculous. He had Grosjean as a test driver alongside him. So what? Piquet was fired for Grosjean. Grosjean was not even a rookie then. If a disgruntled driver like Piquet knows that much, how much does the team that employed both of them and re-employing one of them again must know? That makes his opinion as invaluable as it can get! Besides, this is coming back to the point of passing comments based on Grosjean's 2009 season.


What he said:

"Sure he (Grosjean) has improved a lot but there is no phenomenon."

What you said:

"He assumes it is the same Grosjean as in 2009".

You made that up. I pointed it out to you. Moving on.

#148 SpaMaster

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 19:09

Yet this same kindness wasn't quite as prevalent with Massa... Come on man, Kimi always seems to have some kind of issue hindering him and it is for this reason that Massa beat him. The fact that Massa is still having similar issues doesn't shower Kimi in glory either.

Cars can differ on how they treat tyres, but not drivers? Button-Hamilton, Prost-Senna, hello??

Drivers are not machines. Their skills are quite human, with varying strengths, weaknesses, and many other features. Stop the stereotyping.

#149 Ferrari2183

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 19:10

That is coz of Grow Johns aggressive driving which propels him in qualy. Or are you blind enough to see that ? And Kimi has just made a come back after two years in absence, it is obvious he would have taken some time to adapt, and now he is on it more or less. Off late he as been as quick or even quicker than his teammate. It would be interesting to see what Alonso does in rally for two years and how would his come back shape up ?

Let the season finish. If Kimi ends up outqualifying Romain then it wont be a pleasant sight for many out here

Then Kimi should alter his driving style in order to generate the necessary heat. The onus is on him after all, but I suspect that you and others would like the team to go on a wild goose chase in figuring out what is wrong with the car that causes him these issues.

Again, what does Alonso have to do with this? This is about Kimi...

#150 Ferrari2183

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 19:14

Cars can differ on how they treat tyres, but not drivers? Button-Hamilton, Prost-Senna, hello??

Drivers are not machines. Their skills are quite human, with varying strengths, weaknesses, and many other features. Stop the stereotyping.

As I've said the onus is on the driver to make the necessary adjustments in order to get the best out of the machinery.