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Senna not good enough for today‚??s F1 ‚?? Piquet Jr


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#1 BackOnTop

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:23

Ayrton Senna not good enough for today‚Äôs F1 ‚Äď Piquet Jr
http://www.f1zone.ne...iquet-jr/15351/

Having already derided the talents of Romain Grosjean and Kimi Raikkonen this week, Nelson Piquet Jr turned his attention to perhaps the most revered F1 driver of all time.
Now in the second-tier Nascar categories, Piquet ‚Äď who left F1 amid the 2008/9 ‚Äėcrashgate‚Äô scandal ‚Äď has now aimed fire at his late and great countryman Ayrton Senna.

He mentioned Senna as an example of a talented driver who might struggle in modern Formula One, due to the change of emphasis since the 80s and early 90s.

‚ÄúSomeone like Senna would not have won anything in F1 today,‚ÄĚ he is quoted by Terra.
‚ÄúHe was very fast but he had no talent in terms of the technical and mechanical.‚ÄĚ

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* I think PJR is going mental. Kimi is a weak driver (1WDC, 18wins, 67podiums, 37fastest laps) & Senna lacks technically and mechanically (3WDC, 41wins, 65poles). His sour grapes are never-ending



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#2 Zava

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:28

I clicked the topic to say 'at least he got this one right', but then saw he's talking about Ayrton... :drunk:
considering who his father is, I'm not surprised he said that. :wave:

#3 Gintonious

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:33

He must have hit his head pretty hard in Singapore.

#4 Oho

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:37

He must have hit his head pretty hard in Singapore.


Either that or not hard enough........ Perhaps Piquet should engage his brain, provided he actually has one, a bit before his mouth. Well at least the not worthy Räikkönen and Grosjean have a rahter illustrious addition to their company....

Edited by Oho, 22 August 2012 - 08:42.


#5 sharo

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:39

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N.P. Jr

#6 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:42

Id say you needed more mechanical and technical talent in Senna's day than now anyway.

F1 now is so dumbed down today a lot of drivers could be succesful.

#7 Buttoneer

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:05

F1 is undeniably different today than it was in 1994. If it is NPJ's opinion that Ayrton would have a hard time being as successful in today's environment as he was then, I don't see that as an unreasonable view to hold.

Would todays F1 allow Senna to even put together some of the performances from his very early days that set him apart as a great talent? Transplanting early Senna into a 2012 Toro Rosso, say, might even see him kicked out by Marko at the end of his first year.

How would Senna feel about the sponsorship commitments, the finicky tyres, the wing-dependant aero?

#8 Absulute

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:06

Oh Nelson.

Who the hell do you think you are?

#9 baddog

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:07

But Senna, for all his flaws, was regarded as exceptionally well engaged with technical matters.

#10 Kvothe

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:23

Honestly I don't know much about Senna, apart from some of the old races that I've watched and from what I've read but I'll try and form an opinion.

Today's F1 is all about consistency, and Senna for all his talent seemed to lack that sometimes crashing or spinning out, what helped him was that at the time, you could drop your worst results, and so there was much more margin for errors and non scoring. So for example despite not scoring as many points as Prost in 1988 he was still able to win the championship.

Another thing is that from what I read he only set the car up for one lap pace, while it was Prost that set the car up for the race and that seemed to define both of them. Senna's style was to lead from the front, and sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't, such an approach would be anathema in today's F1 with the Pirelli tyres, and invariably he would end up going backwards as his tyres went off.

Of course such thinking does depend on the assumption that Senna would have been unable to adapt to F1 today, an assumption no one knows the answer to.

Given who is making the comment (Piquet's son,) and how controversial it is, I can't help but feel a little cynical about the motives behind it (publicity) and by extension it's validity

Edited by Kvothe, 22 August 2012 - 09:23.


#11 jcbc3

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:25

What if we put Alfredo di Stefano on a football pitch today? Would he excert the same command of the field? Of course not. Any sport is forever evolving and so is Formula 1.

I have no doubt that Senna if he started out today could become a dominant driver. But transplanting Senna to a current car may not make him special. Just look at Schimacher. Dominant in one era. Just a few years later, struggling. Time waits for no man.

#12 as65p

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:30

F1 is undeniably different today than it was in 1994. If it is NPJ's opinion that Ayrton would have a hard time being as successful in today's environment as he was then, I don't see that as an unreasonable view to hold.

Would todays F1 allow Senna to even put together some of the performances from his very early days that set him apart as a great talent? Transplanting early Senna into a 2012 Toro Rosso, say, might even see him kicked out by Marko at the end of his first year.

How would Senna feel about the sponsorship commitments, the finicky tyres, the wing-dependant aero?


If you put all that into question, it implies every other driver of that period would have even more trouble than him in todays F1. Is that a reasonable assumption, given how an aged MS, arguably well below his prime, performs every other week? Senna's early career results you refer to were IMO dependant on two things: speed and commitment. Those two things work in every era, I would think.

Frankly I'm surprised you give Nelsinhos words that much consideration. Apart from all else, his birth date makes it pretty likely that he knows less about 80's and 90's F1 than you or me, especially if he'd be right that the game has changed so much.

Hm, not sure if just playing devils advocate over this?

#13 DrF

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:32

Didn't Piquet Snr. have a bit of a Bone to Pick with Senna Snr?

I'm hazy on details and too busy to google, but I believe their was friction.

As for Senna Snr dealing with 2012 regulations, F1 has always had mad rules and politics. He dealt with them then (and rubbed a LOT of drivers up the wrong way) and he'd deal with them now.

No talent in terms of technical and mechanical?!? Senna practically got a Japanese passport he spent so much time consulting with Honda. He helped develop the NSX FFS!

PKJr is entitled to his opinion, but in this case he has nothing to base his opinion on.

#14 as65p

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:35

What if we put Alfredo di Stefano on a football pitch today? Would he excert the same command of the field? Of course not. Any sport is forever evolving and so is Formula 1.

I have no doubt that Senna if he started out today could become a dominant driver. But transplanting Senna to a current car may not make him special. Just look at Schimacher. Dominant in one era. Just a few years later, struggling. Time waits for no man.


The talk is not about how Ascari would fare today. To stay with your comparison, it's more like "would Maradona excel today?" To which I think the answer is a clear "Yes".

#15 ViMaMo

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:37

F1 is undeniably different today than it was in 1994. If it is NPJ's opinion that Ayrton would have a hard time being as successful in today's environment as he was then, I don't see that as an unreasonable view to hold.

Would todays F1 allow Senna to even put together some of the performances from his very early days that set him apart as a great talent? Transplanting early Senna into a 2012 Toro Rosso, say, might even see him kicked out by Marko at the end of his first year.

How would Senna feel about the sponsorship commitments, the finicky tyres, the wing-dependant aero?


How could he make a judgement when he isnt even on the grid today and doesnt even know Senna professionally?

The only people who could embark on such a thought would have to be someone who hired him or known him professionally like Frank Williams or Ron Dennis !!


#16 SPBHM

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:40

I guess is better to ask to the people that worked with him rather than Piquet Jr.

like


#17 baddog

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:44

Today's F1 is all about consistency, and Senna for all his talent seemed to lack that sometimes crashing or spinning out, what helped him was that at the time, you could drop your worst results, and so there was much more margin for errors and non scoring. So for example despite not scoring as many points as Prost in 1988 he was still able to win the championship.

Senna was really exceptionally consistent, and extremely rarely crashed. Prost was even more consistent, but thats purely relative.

#18 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:17

Well, looks like there's still a lot of anger and frustration in little Piquet's head since his F1 exodus. Calling Raikkonen a weak driver was silly, and this comment about Senna is even more silly.

#19 bub

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:24

Yet I bet he thinks he's good enough. Smh.

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#20 Buttoneer

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:27

If you put all that into question, it implies every other driver of that period would have even more trouble than him in todays F1. Is that a reasonable assumption, given how an aged MS, arguably well below his prime, performs every other week? Senna's early career results you refer to were IMO dependant on two things: speed and commitment. Those two things work in every era, I would think.

Frankly I'm surprised you give Nelsinhos words that much consideration. Apart from all else, his birth date makes it pretty likely that he knows less about 80's and 90's F1 than you or me, especially if he'd be right that the game has changed so much.

Hm, not sure if just playing devils advocate over this?

I rather hoped to encourage discussion of his comment rather than of him (or me, for that matter).

NPJ's father has direct experience of that era and I'm sure that the two of them will have discussed their respective careers and the relative merits of drivers in each. I imagine that between the two of them they could come to quite a reasonable conclusion about what it might take to succeed in each era. It's not very well expressed in this interview, nor is there any elaboration, so maybe he's lifting the entire grid of drivers from 1989 to 2012 or just Senna. It's all good for discussion.

This is quite probably entirely his Father's view anyway but again I'd much rather discuss the merits of that opinion, since it's out there.

#21 Alexis*27

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:30

Quite why he is declaring the hypothetical to be fact is a complete mystery.

I can say that Senna would have been a terrible tiddly winks player and a fantastic Roman gladiator, but nobody can say such things as being factual.

#22 7MGTEsup

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:38

Looks like the only way to stay in peoples thought process for young Piquet is to shit talk. I think the reason old man Piquet didn't like Senna was because in 1988 he moved to Lotus and though if Senna can put the car on pole and win races then I could do alot more with it. Then he arrived at Lotus and was an also ran showing the distinct difference in the two mens tallents. Don't get me wrong Piquet was good but that 86/87 Williams Honda was a hell of a car.

#23 FenderJaguar

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:39

I think he is trying to create headlines and get his name back into the F1 media.
When it comes to the question I think Ayrton Senna was that kind of talent so he would have been successful today too. I liked the comparison with Maradona in football. He would have been successful in today's football too. Ayrton was not just another driver and he had loads of talent. But when it comes to F1 one can always ask the what ifs and so on because it is so difficult to get into F1 and then have a successful career. But talking down Ayrton Senna and implying something like hey I am Piquet jr and I can be good too leaves a bad taste in the mouth.


#24 Muppetmad

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:43

It's simply not something that needs to be discussed - sure, in today's era Senna might not have been as impressive, but such a hypothetical is useless. All you can do is be the best you can in the era you're racing in - that's why people like Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Senna, etc. are all rated so highly. What they would likely have achieved today is thoroughly irrelevant as it essentially asks them to have demonstrated skills for a future era they could not possibly have anticipated.

#25 MightyMc

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:53

I think Ayrton would take a Mag to read while driving round today.

Racing back then had no bells and whistles, touch, feel and instinct were the driver aids of the day.

#26 ViMaMo

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:06

‚ÄúHe was very fast but he had no talent in terms of the technical and mechanical.‚ÄĚ


Wasnt he noted for his very detailed feedbacks to the engineers during his Lotus days?

The only point i have is would Senna have adapted to current style of driving required by the tyres? Ofcourse he would have. There were so many changes during the 10 years he spent in F1 and he was one of the best.

There were always discussions on who would come out on top when the V10s changed to V8s, and reintroduction of slicks, etc etc. The faster and naturally talented have come out on top generally speaking.

#27 7MGTEsup

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:09

I think Ayrton would take a Mag to read while driving round today.

Racing back then had no bells and whistles, touch, feel and instinct were the driver aids of the day.


You must have forgotten about 1992 and 1993 then? The Williams at the time was quite possibly the most tech laden car we will ever see.


#28 MadYarpen

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:10

Posted Image

#29 Coops3

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:11

F1 is undeniably different today than it was in 1994. If it is NPJ's opinion that Ayrton would have a hard time being as successful in today's environment as he was then, I don't see that as an unreasonable view to hold.

Would todays F1 allow Senna to even put together some of the performances from his very early days that set him apart as a great talent? Transplanting early Senna into a 2012 Toro Rosso, say, might even see him kicked out by Marko at the end of his first year.

How would Senna feel about the sponsorship commitments, the finicky tyres, the wing-dependant aero?


I would probably agree that it's not unreasonable to think he would have a hard time today (although I don't agree), but to say he wouldn't have won anything is just nonsense IMO.

#30 Amphicar

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:13

Perhaps the algebra works like this:

Ayrton Senna = not good enough for today's F1;

Nelson Piquet Jr = not good enough for today's F1;

therefore Nelson Piquet Jr is as good as Ayrton Senna

QED

#31 Obi Offiah

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:18

F1 is undeniably different today than it was in 1994. If it is NPJ's opinion that Ayrton would have a hard time being as successful in today's environment as he was then, I don't see that as an unreasonable view to hold.

Would todays F1 allow Senna to even put together some of the performances from his very early days that set him apart as a great talent? Transplanting early Senna into a 2012 Toro Rosso, say, might even see him kicked out by Marko at the end of his first year.

How would Senna feel about the sponsorship commitments, the finicky tyres, the wing-dependant aero?

The answer to that is, we don't know, nobody does. I don't see how he can be so firm in his opinion, I find it quite ridiculous actually. Its a little like saying Juan Manuel Fangio would have destroyed Senna in 'X' category of racing. Where is the bases for this comparison.

#32 as65p

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:18

NPJ's father has direct experience of that era and I'm sure that the two of them will have discussed their respective careers and the relative merits of drivers in each. I imagine that between the two of them they could come to quite a reasonable conclusion about what it might take to succeed in each era. It's not very well expressed in this interview, nor is there any elaboration, so maybe he's lifting the entire grid of drivers from 1989 to 2012 or just Senna. It's all good for discussion.

This is quite probably entirely his Father's view anyway but again I'd much rather discuss the merits of that opinion, since it's out there.


Quite right on the bolded. And before we get a bit more explanation, context and elaboration, the merits of that opinion as we get to read it so far remains pretty low, I'd say.

It feels a bit like those bait threads you must know "I think XY isn't really fast. Please discuss!" I doubt any meaningful discussions can come off that kind of thing. Guess we'll see soon.

#33 as65p

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:20

Posted Image


:D That looks like the only half decent cop-out for Nelsinho, at this stage.  ;)

#34 baddog

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:20

I think Ayrton would take a Mag to read while driving round today.

Racing back then had no bells and whistles, touch, feel and instinct were the driver aids of the day.

the 1993 mclaren active was one of the most advanced aid-assisted cars ever used, with traction control, semi-auto gearbox and active suspension. In spite of being a little underpowered, the chassis was just superb, and the very opposite of 'no bells and whistles'. The bells had whistles on them. Michael Schumacher is probably the only current F1 driver to drive a car with as many aids.

#35 MadYarpen

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:22

:D That looks like the only half decent cop-out for Nelsinho, at this stage. ;)

Well he made me laugh actually :drunk:

#36 Obi Offiah

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:24

Quite why he is declaring the hypothetical to be fact is a complete mystery.

I can say that Senna would have been a terrible tiddly winks player and a fantastic Roman gladiator, but nobody can say such things as being factual.

:up:

#37 Obi Offiah

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:25

Posted Image

:lol:

#38 MightyMc

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:32

You must have forgotten about 1992 and 1993 then? The Williams at the time was quite possibly the most tech laden car we will ever see.

No I hadn't forgotten, but Senna was racing the Williams when it had it's distinct advantage over the field not in one, his move to Williams was bad timing in every sense of the word.

#39 Bloggsworth

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:32

Another pearl of wisdom from Petit Piquet - What would we do without his little gems? We would be lost, unable to proceed without his erudition - Perhaps he could sell tickets for his lectures off the back of his truck...

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#40 UPRC

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:40

What the heck has Piquet been smoking lately? He's been running his mouth an awful lot lately. I'm not sure why he feels he is able to judge Grosjean, Raikkonen or Senna. The guy hardly set the world on fire when he was in F1, and his career was anything but lengthy. I'd be more inclined to listen a permanent recurring backmarker like Narain Karthikeyan than this little clown.

Edited by UPRC, 22 August 2012 - 11:40.


#41 Kvothe

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:52

The original source of Nelson's comments:

http://www.gazetaesp...fittipaldi.html

‚ÄúSe voc√™ pegasse o Senna e colocasse na F√≥rmula 1 dez anos antes, provavelmente n√£o teria vencido nenhum campeonato. Quando ele entrou na F-1, teve muitas quebras, porque sempre andava no limite, era muito r√°pido mas n√£o tinha aquela mente de poupar equipamento, motor, c√Ęmbio, pneu, tudo‚ÄĚ, disse mantendo o estilo de Nelson, para depois assumir o pr√≥prio tom. ‚ÄúEra um piloto super-r√°pido, que errava pouqu√≠ssimo, mas a parte mec√Ęnica dele era muito fraca. O que n√£o √© uma coisa ruim‚ÄĚ.

If you took the Senna Formula 1 and put in ten years ago, probably would not have won any championship. When he entered the F-1, had many breaks because always walked on the edge, was very fast but I had that mind-saving equipment, engine, exchange, tires, everything ", said keeping the style of Nelson, then take own tone. "He was a super-fast rider, who missed very little, but the mechanical part of it was very weak. Which is not a bad thing. "


It seems he was referring to Senna's focus on ultimate speed, and lack of being able to conserve equipment, tyres ect.

As a seperate point, wasn't it in 1989 when Senna had 5 (or 6) mechanical failures compared to Prost who had none?

Edited by Kvothe, 22 August 2012 - 12:01.


#42 MightyMc

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:55

Watch this Vid, it tells you all you need to know about the skill Senna had to drive back then.

Hamilton driving the MP44

#43 Oho

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:09

It seems he was referring to Senna's focus on ultimate speed, and lack of being able to conserve equipment, tyres ect.


Which of course is bollocks, considering Senna took three titles during no refueling era against Alain Prost of all people. He simply could not have pulled it off without being mindful on finishing races, his equipment considered, much more than is demanded of any present day driver.

Edited by Oho, 22 August 2012 - 12:12.


#44 sailor

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:10

Here we go again.
I say Nelsinho is confused by all that going round and round in circles in his truck :)

#45 Kvothe

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:11

Which of course is bollocks, considering Senna took three titles during no refueling era against Alain Prost of all people. He simply could not have pulled it off without being mindful on finishing races.


Yes but that was in an era when you could pick the 11 best results and drop the others, as far as I'm aware Senna never outscored Prost on points.

#46 as65p

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:12

The original source of Nelson's comments:

It seems he was referring to Senna's focus on ultimate speed, and lack of being able to conserve equipment, tyres ect.


I'm puzzled how you apparently can draw conclusions from such a "translation".

As a seperate point, wasn't it in 1989 when Senna had 5 (or 6) mechanical failures compared to Prost who had none?


Yeah, Senna was a car breaker. Curiously, Prost started as a car breaker too in his early Renault years, and then by 1991 he had again forgotten all his preserving skills and retired 8 times. Meanwhile. Senna had discovered how to not break his car in 1988, only to forget about it again a year later.

#47 as65p

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:15

Yes but that was in an era when you could pick the 11 best results and drop the others, as far as I'm aware Senna never outscored Prost on points.


Of course Senna outscored Prost in 1988. It's impossible to win a WDC without outscoring the opposition.

I give you a hint. Point's that are not counted do not count. :eek:

#48 Jon83

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:16

F1 is undeniably different today than it was in 1994. If it is NPJ's opinion that Ayrton would have a hard time being as successful in today's environment as he was then, I don't see that as an unreasonable view to hold.

Would todays F1 allow Senna to even put together some of the performances from his very early days that set him apart as a great talent? Transplanting early Senna into a 2012 Toro Rosso, say, might even see him kicked out by Marko at the end of his first year.

How would Senna feel about the sponsorship commitments, the finicky tyres, the wing-dependant aero?


It is a bit much though to categorically say that Senna wouldn't win anything.

Okay, if you dropped Senna into a Toro Rosso today then of course it would be a struggle but all the other drivers (or some at least) have learned how to play the long game and there is no reason why Senna wouldn't be able to do that.



#49 Kvothe

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:17

I'm puzzled how you apparently can draw conclusions from such a "translation".



Yeah, Senna was a car breaker. Curiously, Prost started as a car breaker too in his early Renault years, and then by 1991 he had again forgotten all his preserving skills and retired 8 times. Meanwhile. Senna had discovered how to not break his car in 1988, only to forget about it again a year later.


I think even translated you can get the basic gist of what he's saying, which seems a bit different to the article posted by the F1 zone whose title is incredibly misleading and manufactured :down:

My knowledge isn't too great in regards to that era I'm just trying to initiate meaningful discussion on the topic itself as opposed to insulting Nelson, in particular a topic which is always brought up when someone tries to compare the current drivers to those of the past. I'm more than happy for those who have much more knowledge about that part of history to correct or explain things to me.

#50 Obi Offiah

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:18

With contemporary F1 cars being so reliable, that would also play into Senna's hands I think.