113 replies to this topic

[john winfield]

For any plane / jet enthusiasts with access to BBC4. 9.00pm, repeated a few hours later at 2.50 am

Radio Times says:
One of those great nostalgia-infused docs that BBC4 does so well. It looks back to a time when Great Britain was at the forefront of the Jet Age, with a flourishing aircraft industry ripe with ingenuity and design brilliance. Even the planes had thrilling names: Meteor, Vulcan, Valiant and English Electric Lightning. Beat that, Eurofighter.

And while the Jet Age may have been an age of austerity, the achievements of daring test pilots and their futuristic planes captured the public’s imagination, making the pilots as celebrated as today’s football stars. It’s a compelling story that will appeal particularly to fans of Dan Dare.

About this programme

Two-part documentary examining advances in British aviation in the 1950s and 60s, which begins by exploring the design and technology behind a new generation of military planes including the Vulcan bomber and the Meteor jet fighter. The first programme investigates how the achievements came at a time of national austerity, and there is a tragic reminder of how some test pilots paid the ultimate price for their work. Including contributions by Norman Tebbit and Tony Blackman.

[Allan Lupton]

I shall record it, but as a former aviation person I fear too much gee-whizz, test-flying danger, crashes and very little about the civil aircraft that we were quite good at and the linear descendants of which (Airbus products) are still world leaders.
As a former BOAC captain, Tebbit at least flew some of them (or may have done - I don't know for certain that he flew VC10s).

[Tony Matthews]

No doubt there will be some annoying moments, but I'm looking forward to it. Quite by coincidence I have a photograph on my desk, of me standing infront of a Gloster Javelin at Farnborough, but no date... 1958/9?

[kayemod]

As a former BOAC captain, Tebbit at least flew some of them (or may have done - I don't know for certain that he flew VC10s).

Norman Tebbit served in the RAF before joining BOAC, he flew the Mosquito, Meteor and Vampire among others, I remember reading somewhere about him having to break a canopy to escape from a burning plane.

If he did fly the VC10, I'd imagine it was easier to handle than the blessed Margaret in his later career.

[paulhooft]

I always enjoy those BBC 4 Docus, Can see them here in the Netherlands, and look forward to see the program to night..

Norman Tebbit served in the RAF before joining BOAC, he flew the Mosquito, Meteor and Vampire among others, I remember reading somewhere about him having to break a canopy to escape from a burning plane.

If he did fly the VC10, I'd imagine it was easier to handle than the blessed Margaret in his later career.

[Gary C]

I'm certainly looking forward to this.

[Tony Matthews]

Well, I enjoyed it.

[RS2000]

I'm afraid it produced the same complaint most on here would make about a motorsport documentary. It said nothing new and told the real enthusiast nothing he didn't know already.

[D-Type]

Well, I enjoyed it.

x2

I don't think it told me anything I didn't know already but it did remind me of a lot of things I'd forgotten. Who else remembers the Avro Ashton?

There were a couple of aircraft I didn't recognise. What was the jet fighter[?] with swept wings and no tailplane?

Edited by D-Type, 22 August 2012 - 22:13.

[Vitesse2]

Well, I enjoyed it.

x 3

[Tony Matthews]

x2

I don't think it told me anything I didn't know already but it did remind me of a lot of things I'd forgotten. Who else remembers the Avro Ashton?

There were a couple of aircraft I didn't recognise. What was the jet fighter[?] with swept wings and no tailplane?

Supermarine Swallow? Without checking, so I'm probably wrong. You are right, it didn't shine any unexpected light on the period, but it was great to see those aircraft again with a sympathetic voice-over, and to me, no glaring inaccuracies. A bit like the old BBC...

[Gary C]

I rather enjoyed it, I particularly liked that they DIDN'T include any 're-enactment' footage that had been newly filmed, something that that really gets on my nerves. It consisted of tons of library footage and new interviews. I also noted that actress Barbara Flynn was the voiceover artist who was notably good, too.

[Tony Matthews]

I rather enjoyed it, I particularly liked that they DIDN'T include any 're-enactment' footage that had been newly filmed, something that that really gets on my nerves. It consisted of tons of library footage and new interviews. I also noted that actress Barbara Flynn was the voiceover artist who was notably good, too.

Yes. I completely agree!

[Rob29]

Supermarine Swallow? Without checking, so I'm probably wrong. You are right, it didn't shine any unexpected light on the period, but it was great to see those aircraft again with a sympathetic voice-over, and to me, no glaring inaccuracies. A bit like the old BBC...

Don't remember a Swallow-there was a Swift which was unsucessful rival to the Hunter.I think the tailess swept wing aircraft referred to was the first british supersonic plane-DH108?

[john aston]

It was superb- and if you have not read Empire of The Clouds(whose author appeared on the programme)please do so - it is utterly brilliant. And re RS2000's comment - ..ermm..maybe there was nothing new to be said for the 0.0000001 % of the population who have a broad knowledge of this era in aviation. I wasn't watching it for exposes but to see those achingly gorgeous Lightnings and Javelins again.

[Allan Lupton]

Don't remember a Swallow-there was a Swift which was unsucessful rival to the Hunter.I think the tailess swept wing aircraft referred to was the first british supersonic plane-DH108?

Haven't seen the recording yet, but DH108 is quite likely and in some circles it was indeed called the Swallow so Tony was almost right!
There was much relief in the rest of the industry when an industrial spy found that the DH106 Comet was more conventional, even though some of its aerodynamics had been tested on DH108s.

[Hamish Robson]

Generally very good I thought, most of my knowledge from this era came from "The Sound Barrier"!

Only minor critisism was that the rest of the world's achievements were barely mentioned. Chuck Yeager, anyone?

[Russell Burrows]

Generally very good I thought, most of my knowledge from this era came from "The Sound Barrier"!

Only minor critisism was that the rest of the world's achievements were barely mentioned. Chuck Yeager, anyone?

It was a programme about our industry. Many out there, youngsters in particular, know lots about Nelson Mandela and Mary Seacol but nothing about this history. I thought it was well made.

[Hamish Robson]

It was a programme about our industry. Many out there, youngsters in particular, know lots about Nelson Mandela and Mary Seacol but nothing about this history. I thought it was well made.

Hence my comment "Generally very good I thought".

[D-Type]

No, it wasn't the DH108 which had featured earlier. It was only a fleeting glimpse in a "Britain produced several prototypes" sequence. The plane had a definite fuselage and fin behind the swept back wings but no tailplane - picture a Hunter, Swift or Sabre without a tailplane. It was only a quick "What's that?" but I think it had a mid height wing.

[Russell Burrows]

Only minor critisism was that the rest of the world's achievements were barely mentioned. Chuck Yeager, anyone?

The could have chucked in Yeager I suppose and then told the story of the X1's British connection ?

[Hamish Robson]

The could have chucked in Yeager I suppose and then told the story of the X1's British connection ?

Indeed - I wasn't even aware of a connection, as I'm sure is true many other viewers. Interesting stuff.

[Tony Matthews]

...Tony was almost right!

That makes a pleasant change from being definitely wrong.

[Tony Matthews]

Indeed - I wasn't even aware of a connection, as I'm sure is true many other viewers. Interesting stuff.

I think the connection must be the all-moving tailplane, 'invented' by Fairy or some other relatively small company, and either copied or invented in parallel by Bell, and an antidote to trans-sonic discombuggerifications.

Don't forget, that was Part 1 of a two-parter, and like John, seeing the sky full of such wonderful aircraft that now one sees singley in museums kept me riveted for an hour.

[Mallory Dan]

Excellent I thought, and I echo John A's thoughts on Empire of the Clouds, a fantastic read. Next week's second part does the Civil stuff I believe. Much the best thing on tele for ages.

[Simon Hadfield]

I think the connection must be the all-moving tailplane, 'invented' by Fairy or some other relatively small company, and either copied or invented in parallel by Bell, and an antidote to trans-sonic discombuggerifications.


Miles aircraft I think, on the M52.

[kayemod]

Miles aircraft I think, on the M52.

The De Havilland DH.77 had an all-moving tailplane in the late 1920s, and I doubt if that was the first occurrence.

[Simon Hadfield]

I am sure there were earlier examples of the moving tailplane but I thought the Miles M 52 data was given to the Americans in a Government brokered, post war detente, "knowledge sharing" deal but that the process was not reciprocated? The Bell X-1 does appear awfully familiar.....

[Mallory Dan]

Interesting bit about RR selling their engine technology to the Russkies in the late 40s, almost behind HMG's back. Could this really have happened? And the shots of Lightnings escorting Bears/Bisons out of UK airspace were superb, there must be so much more of this material somewhere.

[Nick Savage]

Yes, just as the Cold War was starting in 1947/48, the Brit Gov encouraged RR to respond positively to a Russian request to buy some of the most advanced centrifugal flow gas turbines. RR expressed their reluctance but the Board of Trade, Minister, Harold Wilson, told them to go ahead against all advice. The Russians were amazed and delighted, although the Americans were less so when they finally got their hands on a Mig-15 which had given them some trouble in Korea, and found that the Klimov VK1 gas turbine was identical to the RR engine.

Harold Wilson's role in this was often quoted in later years by the MI5 'reds-under-the-beds' enthusiasts (Peter Wright et al.) who were sure that the voters in the UK had elected a Prime Minister in 1964 who was a suspect fellow-traveller. I should add that no firm evidence has ever emerged to confirm this assertion.
Nick S

[Sharman]

Two things, who gives a stuff about Yeager, if you read his biography you will know he was utterly contemptuous of Britain. The other thing is that Barbara Flynn still sounds as delicious as ever, but seeing her in a recent programmme reminds me of how much older I am.

[Allan Lupton]

No, it wasn't the DH108 which had featured earlier. It was only a fleeting glimpse in a "Britain produced several prototypes" sequence. The plane had a definite fuselage and fin behind the swept back wings but no tailplane - picture a Hunter, Swift or Sabre without a tailplane. It was only a quick "What's that?" but I think it had a mid height wing.

I've now looked on iplayer and there's what looks like a Short SB-4 Sherpa at about 21 min 23 sec.

[mfd]

Empire of the Clouds, a fantastic read.

Obviously, more depth in the book & a worthwhile read with much about the UK aircraft industry, it's faults and some of the bizarre government procurement programmes. What the TV programme seemed to miss was the intrinsic design flaws of many of the aircraft. Bill Waterton's book the "Quick & the Dead" though long out of print, can still be found on Amazon.

[Allan Lupton]

Obviously, more depth in the book & a worthwhile read with much about the UK aircraft industry, it's faults and some of the bizarre government procurement programmes. What the TV programme seemed to miss was the intrinsic design flaws of many of the aircraft. Bill Waterton's book the "Quick & the Dead" though long out of print, can still be found on Amazon.

Yes it was quite a relief that the usual TV hatchet job was resisted.
Channel 4 would not have done that, so perhaps the BBC is still better, and even if it no longer makes all its own programmes this one seems to have been in-house.

[garyfrogeye]

Watched it last night. Fantastic for someone like me who has very little knowledge who enjoys anything fast and mechanical. It did leave me feeling a bit sad though. Looking forward to the next one as the first holiday abroad was on a Comet.

[Mallory Dan]

Dan-Air, Gary, where to and from? I only ever saw one in the flesh, Hurn in summer 78, one of the ex-RAF 4Cs IIRC. Very noisy, but beautiful!

[garyfrogeye]

Hi Dan,

More likely to have been BEA or BOAC I think. And would have been to Spain in the mid 1960s. I was four, what would I know?

[Amphicar]

Hi Dan,

More likely to have been BEA or BOAC I think. And would have been to Spain in the mid 1960s. I was four, what would I know?

If it was a short-haul flight, such as Spain, it would have been BEA (British European Airways). BOAC (British Overseas Airways Corporation) did the long-haul flights. Both were government owned public corporations, modeled on the BBC's governance structure.

[garyfrogeye]

Look, That must be me five windows back :0)

[Phil Rainford]

I must be have been a " good watch " if my nine year old daughter sat infront of the TV from start to finish

"I like the look of that silver Lightning Dad "

Don't we all !!


PAR

Edited by Phil Rainford, 24 August 2012 - 16:32.

[Sharman]

Hi Dan,

More likely to have been BEA or BOAC I think. And would have been to Spain in the mid 1960s. I was four, what would I know

I went on one of those to Corfu on my honeymoon. i always knew the Comet was an unlucky plane!

[cdrewett]

I think the connection must be the all-moving tailplane, 'invented' by Fairy or some other relatively small company, and either copied or invented in parallel by Bell, and an antidote to trans-sonic discombuggerifications.


Miles aircraft I think, on the M52.

Has it ever emerged why the Miles M52 was suddenly cancelled? It would probably have gone supersonic before Chuck Yeager. Was there some devilish pressure put on the Labour Government by the USA...or Russia?
Chris

[kayemod]

I went on one of those to Corfu on my honeymoon. i always knew the Comet was an unlucky plane!

The landlord of a pub I used to go in near Huntingdon was bumped off a Comet that crashed into the Mediterranean, heading for Malta I think, so not unlucky for him. He was a steward, no sniggers please, and the crew was changed at the last minute. He was still telling that story to anyone who'd listen thirty years later, he was known to everyone as "Comet", some of us would have liked to sit him in one of the window seats.

[nicanary]

Has it ever emerged why the Miles M52 was suddenly cancelled? It would probably have gone supersonic before Chuck Yeager. Was there some devilish pressure put on the Labour Government by the USA...or Russia?
Chris

I live about 1 mile from the former Miles factory. My father was a fitter with the RAF, and when I mentioned the proximity of the factory he immediately came out with something along the lines of " pity about them and their great novel invention, the rest of the industry ganged up on them and kiboshed it". I'm only guessing that the "tailplane" is what he was referring to, and that he had knowledge of machinations by British manufacturers who had vested interests.

[Paul Hurdsfield]

I havent watched the program yet, but talking of Gloster Meteors, two of them crashed on Sliddens Moss and some wreckage is still there, I've never managed to find any pieces as big as those in the link just a few small bits of fuselage, it's quite a good map reading exercise trying find some of these air wrecks, there are plenty in the Dark Peak area.

[Mallory Dan]

The landlord of a pub I used to go in near Huntingdon was bumped off a Comet that crashed into the Mediterranean, heading for Malta I think, so not unlucky for him. He was a steward, no sniggers please, and the crew was changed at the last minute. He was still telling that story to anyone who'd listen thirty years later, he was known to everyone as "Comet", some of us would have liked to sit him in one of the window seats.

Rob, from memory the Comets that crashed into the Med were on the London-Singapore run, stopping off at Naples for fuel. There've been a few teledocs on the Comet crashes over the years, no doubt more info on them will be on next weeks prog. I bet that Steward would have had some great stories to tell.

[jcdeleted]

I rather enjoyed it, I particularly liked that they DIDN'T include any 're-enactment' footage that had been newly filmed, something that that really gets on my nerves. It consisted of tons of library footage and new interviews. I also noted that actress Barbara Flynn was the voiceover artist who was notably good, too.

Just seen it and couldn't agree more. I found it enjoyable, informative and educational, and so did my aged mother. All quite Reithian really.

It also brought back memories of family holidays in the mid-1950s with my grandparents, who lived and worked on the Bristol Aircraft sites at Banwell and Old Mixon. Travelled down there on the front seat of the Yelloway from Rochdale, lots of cars and planes around, grandad teaching me to drive his Austin 7 around the perimeter roads (with blocks on my shoes) and being taken for an impromptu flight in a Bell like the ones on "Whirlybirds" by the test pilot who lived next door.

And the voiceover brought back different types of memories from 20 years later of "Open All Hours" and "The Biederbecke Affair". Much better than Felicity Kendall imho. Sorry about the thread drift.

[Allan Lupton]

Nice pic, Amphicar!
Comet 4B for those that don't know but want to!
Look at all that wonderful wing area!

[D-Type]

I've now looked on iplayer and there's what looks like a Short SB-4 Sherpa at about 21 min 23 sec.

Had a look on the net - that's the one.

Gary might have flown on a DanAir Comet, as they acquired their first Comet in 1966.

[Allan Lupton]

Rob, from memory the Comets that crashed into the Med were on the London-Singapore run, stopping off at Naples for fuel. There've been a few teledocs on the Comet crashes over the years, no doubt more info on them will be on next weeks prog. I bet that Steward would have had some great stories to tell.

The Comets that crashed into the Med were staging through Rome Ciampino. The first (G-ALYP) was from Singapore and the second (G-ALYY) (operating as a South African Airways flight) was en route for Johannesburg.
There was a Channel 4 hatchet job masquerading as a documentary about the Comet: Called "Comet Cover-Up" it was broadcast on 13 June 2002 and its unfairness was taken to the Broadcasting Standards Commission which found against the programme makers. The finding is on page 6 of this
That's why I have it in for Channel 4 "documentary" programmes.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 24 August 2012 - 14:18.