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Marko; "Sauber perhaps the best car in the field" [split]


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#1 Risil

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 18:51

Helmut Marko: 2012 Sauber 'Best Car On Grid'

Guess Perez won't be getting a Red Bull drive any time soon, at any rate...

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#2 Collective

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 19:04

Looking at how every Marko recruit since Vettel has done, I can't take his words too seriously.

#3 Mauseri

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 21:52

Helmut Marko: 2012 Sauber 'Best Car On Grid'

Guess Perez won't be getting a Red Bull drive any time soon, at any rate...

Well, in my opinion Sauber and Willaims are good cars, which are propably the most let down by drivers... Don't know about the best car though but if Lotus is ranked high due it's consistent race pace, why not Sauber... Before season started, these teams were ranked up there with Lotus, even above.

If Massa was replaced now by Perez, I don't think it would help Ferrari in any way.

Edited by Mauseri, 22 August 2012 - 21:55.


#4 HP

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 07:36

Helmut Marko: 2012 Sauber 'Best Car On Grid'

Even if it were, Sauber is IMO good at spoting talent, but moving those talents forward isn't their forte. I do think if Sauber wants to improve, then they need to improve at their work on race weekend.

Also Sauber needs someone in their ranks to encourage and coach their drivers and the team to reach for the stars. IMO we'd seen less rookie and other mistakes, but more solid top results. And if that were so, Perez wouldn't want to move to Ferrari anyway.

Besides, Button's quotes in that article are very suspect to me. Maybe Button said them, but in light of his year at McLaren, and only recently overcoming his setup issues, something doesn't add up. Button was interfering his car wasn't up to the job, while all the while he wasn't up to properly setup the car, and use the tire as best as he could. Really a cheap shot from Button on Perez, if indeed he said this.

Edited by HP, 23 August 2012 - 08:02.


#5 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 10:58

Besides, Button's quotes in that article are very suspect to me. Maybe Button said them, but in light of his year at McLaren, and only recently overcoming his setup issues, something doesn't add up. Button was interfering his car wasn't up to the job, while all the while he wasn't up to properly setup the car, and use the tire as best as he could. Really a cheap shot from Button on Perez, if indeed he said this.


I think in this case all he's saying is that Pérez is driving the Sauber in the way it needs to be driven, and that you could not drive the Macca that way. (Conversely, Button could not drive the Sauber the way he needs to drive the Macca.) Doesn't say anything bad about Pérez, IMO

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 23 August 2012 - 10:59.


#6 Buttoneer

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:08

For clarity, this topic was split from the 'Perez too inexperienced' one so some comments will probably relate a little to that one too.

#7 maverick69

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:17

Not a lot of context in that article (if any).

For example, if you were to say to me that the Sauber was the best car at managing its tyres over a race distance then I would probably agree with you..... with Lotus right up there too.

Ironically, I think that the best overall car is the one that Marko primarily oversees. Defo would prefer to be sitting in a RB8 this year than any other car...... and the WCC standings reflect that.

Edited by maverick69, 23 August 2012 - 11:18.


#8 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:21

Not a lot of context in that article (if any).

For example, if you were to say to me that the Sauber was the best car at managing its tyres over a race distance then I would probably agree with you..... with Lotus right up there too.

Ironically, I think that the best overall car is the one that Marko primarily oversees. Defo would prefer to be sitting in a RB8 this year than any other car...... and the WCC standings reflect that.


The WCC reflects that the Red Bull pair is the strongest pair and are the only pair consistently performing. Far from having the best car.

The Mclaren is the best car by a margin IMO.

#9 Mauseri

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:26

I think in this case all he's saying is that Pérez is driving the Sauber in the way it needs to be driven, and that you could not drive the Macca that way. (Conversely, Button could not drive the Sauber the way he needs to drive the Macca.) Doesn't say anything bad about Pérez, IMO

Agreed. Perez can attack all he wants and do 1 stop races and the tyres will last. It was nothing about Perez being a crap driver, but that Button himself cannot drive the mac that way because of the tyres.

Edited by Mauseri, 23 August 2012 - 11:28.


#10 maverick69

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:27

The WCC reflects that the Red Bull pair is the strongest pair and are the only pair consistently performing. Far from having the best car.

The Mclaren is the best car by a margin IMO.


Sorry. But it is very well proven that the McLaren has an operating window, with these tyres, that is the size of a pea. Ergo a quality driver like JB being all at sea. Sure it may have the most latent speed over one lap - but it's hard to extract...... and it can end up falling out of that window quite a few times during the race..... which is not the best car is it? There's a wealth of articles and discussions on this - least of all from McLaren themselves.

I'd much, much rather be sitting in a RB8 - especially that they are getting a handle on things.

#11 Tsarwash

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:37

I do think that we probably need just one thread where we can put all the stupid crap that comes out of Marko's mouth together.

#12 travbrad

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:41

If Massa was replaced now by Perez, I don't think it would help Ferrari in any way.


It probably wouldn't help them, simply because Perez has no experience or knowledge of how the Ferrari works (both to drive and setup-wise). I think any driver would struggle when jumping in to a completely different car mid-season. If Perez actually had proper preperation I'm pretty sure he'd fare better than Massa has this year though.

#13 Kvothe

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:42

I do think that we probably need just one thread where we can put all the stupid crap that comes out of Marko's mouth together.


F1 memes?

#14 sailor

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:00

The WCC reflects that the Red Bull pair is the strongest pair and are the only pair consistently performing. Far from having the best car.

The Mclaren is the best car by a margin IMO.

Not quite a fan of Fingerboy but I would agree.

As a driver pair - theirs is the best and that shows in the tables.

#15 pingu666

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:03

that is pretty crazy thing for marko to say

#16 MightyMc

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:19

I think if you take away these crazy tyres, I reckon Mclaren have the best package, even better than Redbull.

#17 maverick69

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:22

I think if you take away these crazy tyres, I reckon Mclaren have the best package, even better than Redbull.


Oh. I'd agree with that.

#18 Mauseri

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:31

It probably wouldn't help them, simply because Perez has no experience or knowledge of how the Ferrari works (both to drive and setup-wise). I think any driver would struggle when jumping in to a completely different car mid-season. If Perez actually had proper preperation I'm pretty sure he'd fare better than Massa has this year though.

Possible, but I think he is being flattered a bit by a good car though. I think some other drivers would put it more regularly towards the sharp edge of the grid.

#19 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:42

The Sauber might be the best at managing tyres over a race distance but it's not the best overall. Their one lap performance isn't great (possibly helps race performance) and I don't recall them being particularly fast on low speed circuits like Hungary.

If you stuck 2010 Bridgestones on the cars McLaren would certainly be more competitive, probably Mercedes too, but Sauber would be nowhere imo

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#20 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 13:08

the maybe have the best aerodyamics, but not the best car as a whole.

#21 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 13:13

I think if you take away these crazy tyres, I reckon Mclaren have the best package, even better than Redbull.


If you take away the tyres, the car would behave in unwanted ways :p And whatever tyres are fitted, the car will have to make them work.

#22 sailor

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 13:20

"Best car" is a fundamentally flawed concept. There is no set criteria like measurable DF units, tyre deg levels, measurable stability, setup window width & amount of over/under steer in certain corners.
All the talk about the best car is fan created hype to acheive two main goals 1> To big up their favorite heroes and their abilities at dragging dog cars and 2> to bash rival drivers.

To be honest , Best cars is just what suits the drivers and conditions the best. Or in other words, the car which wins without any obvious mistakes from others in race / quali is pretty much the best car on the day and the one which wins the WDC is the best car averaged over a season.

Currently
Lotus is best when its hot
Ferrari is best when its wet
Sauber is best if tyre deg is high and Pirelli have chosen a softer tyre
McLaren is best when its cold and dry
.
.
.
HRT is best when all others crash out.

Edited by sailor, 23 August 2012 - 13:21.


#23 Sakae

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 13:29

Even if it were, Sauber is IMO good at spoting talent, but moving those talents forward isn't their forte. I do think if Sauber wants to improve, then they need to improve at their work on race weekend.

Also Sauber needs someone in their ranks to encourage and coach their drivers and the team to reach for the stars. IMO we'd seen less rookie and other mistakes, but more solid top results. And if that were so, Perez wouldn't want to move to Ferrari anyway.

Besides, Button's quotes in that article are very suspect to me. Maybe Button said them, but in light of his year at McLaren, and only recently overcoming his setup issues, something doesn't add up. Button was interfering his car wasn't up to the job, while all the while he wasn't up to properly setup the car, and use the tire as best as he could. Really a cheap shot from Button on Perez, if indeed he said this.

Just couple of races back J. Stewart suggested (via media) coaching Romain Grosjean, only to be brushed off (via media) by “no coaching is required”.

Edited by Sakae, 23 August 2012 - 13:30.


#24 F1ultimate

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 13:51

that is pretty crazy thing for marko to say


He's just trolling. It's just another round of his mind games.

#25 TFLB

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:04

I think he might be right. Sauber and Lotus I think have been the best cars, but the drivers have underperformed.

#26 korzeniow

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:07

If you stuck 2010 Bridgestones on the cars McLaren would certainly be more competitive, probably Mercedes too, but Sauber would be nowhere imo


Where are your arguments to back this up?

#27 korzeniow

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:08

Just couple of races back J. Stewart suggested (via media) coaching Romain Grosjean, only to be brushed off (via media) by “no coaching is required”.


You have to wonder why he came to the media in first place?

#28 bub

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:13

If this is true then Redbull, Ferrari and McLaren's design teams have performed as poorly as Sauber's drivers.

#29 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 14:25

Sorry. But it is very well proven that the McLaren has an operating window, with these tyres, that is the size of a pea. Ergo a quality driver like JB being all at sea. Sure it may have the most latent speed over one lap - but it's hard to extract...... and it can end up falling out of that window quite a few times during the race..... which is not the best car is it? There's a wealth of articles and discussions on this - least of all from McLaren themselves. I'd much, much rather be sitting in a RB8 - especially that they are getting a handle on things.


:up:

All absolutely true, but I thought this was the conventional wisdom and didn't need explaining tbh.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 23 August 2012 - 14:25.


#30 mtknot

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 15:22

The WCC reflects that the Red Bull pair is the strongest pair and are the only pair consistently performing. Far from having the best car.


I think this is a valid point.

The RB8 is nowhere near the monsters of previous years, especially that RB6 (I'd love to see an RB6 with an unrestricted V10 fitted to it.... one really wonders how much faster it'd be, sub 1:20 for melbourne? :drunk: ).

As for the Sauber, Marko must be getting information the whole paddock isn't getting to make a judgement like that. Actually that does make me wonder, how many hidden winning cars we've had over the years; cars that are meant to win but have poor drivers.

As for Ferrari... if they had Webber, or any other front running driver they'd be easily leading the WCC atm.

#31 smoothcrim

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 20:38

Looking at how every Marko recruit since Vettel has done, I can't take his words too seriously.


How about u look at Vettel and trust him on his judgement,thats what a normal person would do. :drunk:



#32 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 20:46

If you stuck 2010 Bridgestones on the cars McLaren would certainly be more competitive, probably Mercedes too, but Sauber would be nowhere imo


Obviously if the teams had known they'd run on 2010 Bridgestones, they would have built different cars :rolleyes:
Or IOW if McLaren and Merc built a car for 2010 Bridgestones, they'd be really, really incompetent.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 23 August 2012 - 21:37.


#33 alframsey

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 20:48

Well it's definitely not the fastest car, by any stretch, why are we even debating this? Tbh why do we even give any of Marko's comments any time? The man is a fool of the highest order!

#34 Alexandros

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 00:04

The sauber is a very fast car in all types of conditions. It has great mechanical grip (theoretically great for rain, qualify etc) but also good tire preservation. It has not gone well on a couple GPs but there are 3 or 4 GPs where it was the fastest car in the given circumstances, including Malaysia.

Edited by Alexandros, 24 August 2012 - 00:08.


#35 Jimisgod

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:04

The real battle this year is who can say the dumber comment: Marko or Nelson Piquet Jnr. :down: :drunk:

#36 Kingshark

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:40

Marko's comment is making Ferrari think twice about hiring Perez for next season, who is definitely a future star. Helmut doesn't want Ferrari to have their "Vettel" for the future, thus they try to ruin his credibility. Guys, don't you see it? He's obviously playing (somewhat sneakily) mindgames.

#37 korzeniow

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 06:40

Marko's comment is making Ferrari think twice about hiring Perez for next season, who is definitely a future star. Helmut doesn't want Ferrari to have their "Vettel" for the future, thus they try to ruin his credibility. Guys, don't you see it? He's obviously playing (somewhat sneakily) mindgames.


makes sense :up:

#38 Risil

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 12:42

Maybe he's trying to embellish the CV of ex-Sauber head designer James Key, who's just joined Toro Rosso...

Jean-Eric, Daniel, you really should be winning races. Don't you know the guy who built your car built the fastest one last year?

#39 Mauseri

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 19:54

Marko's comment is making Ferrari think twice about hiring Perez for next season, who is definitely a future star. Helmut doesn't want Ferrari to have their "Vettel" for the future, thus they try to ruin his credibility. Guys, don't you see it? He's obviously playing (somewhat sneakily) mindgames.

LOL. For some reason team bosses are not showing extraordinary interest on Perez so maybe they know something we not.

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#40 BetaVersion

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 00:38

I think Sauber had best race pace in a couple of races but they are not the best car overall.

Spa should suit them a lot, though, which might not mean they are the best

#41 BetaVersion

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 14:13

Well, I was right about Spa, in my last post in here, and most importantly to this thread, Marko was not entirely wrong

Edited by BetaVersion, 09 September 2012 - 14:14.


#42 sailor

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 14:14

Well, I was right about Spa, in my last post in here, and most importantly to this thread, Marko was not entirely wrong


Peter Sauber agrees too.

Source - Sky interview

#43 Jovanotti

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 14:16

Sauber lack an experienced, constant driver, that much is clear.

Edited by Jovanotti, 09 September 2012 - 14:16.