22 replies to this topic

[simonlewisbooks]

Just come across this issue of MOTORING NEWS in which the new 1966 312 F1 Ferrari was unveiled.
Look at those tyres.....


Whats the story here I wonder?!

(And just in case anyone thinks it's a case of photoshop, I guarantee it's not - although couldn't swear that MOTORING NEWS photo editor wasn't having a bit of a jape with the airbrush. Although that seems highly pointless.)

[Doug Nye]

That's old hat, very much remarked upon at the time, just slave tyres and nothing more. Similarly untreaded, uncut tyres were later supplied by Firestone to Autodelta who actually tested upon them. When asked for their latest order Firestone was surprised to be told the customer would like another load of those slick tyres, they were great so long as it's dry.

DCN

[simonlewisbooks]

That's old hat, very much remarked upon at the time, just slave tyres and nothing more. Similarly untreaded, uncut tyres were later supplied by Firestone to Autodelta who actually tested upon them. When asked for their latest order Firestone was surprised to be told the customer would like another load of those slick tyres, they were great so long as it's dry.

DCN

Older 'hat' than me Doug, I'm only a '67 vintage....

Wonder why Firestone didn't persue Autodelta's request?
Surely someone realised they were onto something?
Or was it like McLaren testing an M8 with a flat plate added to the underside of the chassis, which they allegedly found gave serious ground-effect several years BPW (before Peter Wright)?
"Hmmm. How interesting..." They thought....but didn't bother developing it any further! (I think that's a Robin Herd story?)

Both cases are a bit like Arthur C Clark inventing, but not bothering to patent, the communication satellite. Maybe not as financially unfortunate however.

[Tim Murray]

Slick tyre development was discussed in this earlier thread:

Why was F1 slow to use slicks? (merged)

[Macca]

Also similar to GV testing a Ferrari with a semi-auto 'box many years before 1989 and nobody realising the advantages.

There are photos from 1966 of a BRM H16 testing with tyres that were almost slick, with just a 'crows foot' pattern, but I don't know what the results were..........cue 'BRM V4'!

Paul M

[Nigel Beresford]

That's old hat, very much remarked upon at the time, just slave tyres and nothing more. Similarly untreaded, uncut tyres were later supplied by Firestone to Autodelta who actually tested upon them. When asked for their latest order Firestone was surprised to be told the customer would like another load of those slick tyres, they were great so long as it's dry.

DCN

I have heard this story from Nigel Bennett too, recounted from when he was a Firestone engineer.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 23 August 2012 - 12:17.

[kayemod]

Or was it like McLaren testing an M8 with a flat plate added to the underside of the chassis, which they allegedly found gave serious ground-effect several years BPW (before Peter Wright)?
"Hmmm. How interesting..." They thought....but didn't bother developing it any further! (I think that's a Robin Herd story?)

A bit doubtful about that, the earlier M6A had shaping under the nose that was intended to provide some ground effect, and the M8 developed this further, so McLaren knew exactly what they were doing. I was told it all came about through discussions between Bruce and Robin Herd when the M6A was conceived, the cars were always ready to run before the bodywork, which was why Bruce used to test them 'naked', the improvement when the bodywork finally arrived for the M6 told them they were on the right lines. On Peter Wright, a clever bloke undoubtedly, but I've always believed that the Lotus 78 and 79 were largely the result of Chapman's thinking. From working with PW at Specialised Mouldings, much of the time making wind tunnel models for him, it always seemed to me that Peter's ground effect aims were largely aimed at getting straight-line speed from a low drag car that still had enough downforce to get around corners. Being a true racer, Chapman worked out that a car that was faster into, through and out of corners wasn't going to be passed on the straight, and he was certainly right about that. As I said, Peter was undoubtedly a clever bloke, and he got most of Chapman's ideas to work, but there's no doubt at all who was the dominant partner in that relationship. If Peter had had more influence, Lotus would never have gone down the blind alley of the T80, those S-shaped sliding skirts were never going to work, and long and narrow wasn't the answer, a whole season more or less wasted, and Team's fortunes never really recovered.

[simonlewisbooks]

The Mclaren flat-bottom story is in print somewhere within the last two years. I'm sure it was an interview with Robin Herd as it led on to the shaped sidepods on the March 701 and how they were rendered ineffective by the use of outboard suspension to save time and cost.

[paulhooft]

I remember an 1963/64? Article by Mickey Thompson about what he called The Tyre of the Future.
In fact they where wider tyres/ slicks..
The one I read was a Dutch translation in Auto Visie or Auto Revue.
However I have lost it in time.
I love to read it again.
Does anyone has an Dutch or English copy of it?
Paul Hooft.

The Mclaren flat-bottom story is in print somewhere within the last two years. I'm sure it was an interview with Robin Herd as it led on to the shaped sidepods on the March 701 and how they were rendered ineffective by the use of outboard suspension to save time and cost.

[Tim Murray]

The best McLaren 'missed opportunity' story is that they tested a rear wing on the M2A at Zandvoort in November 1965:

I knew it was here somewhere ....

From "McLaren!" by Eoin Young

[Robin] Herd's background in advanced design spurred the interest and development of the McLaren team in the field of aerodynamics, and they began experimenting with the wings and adjustable tail-fins back in 1965. The Oldsmobile-powered M2A Mallite-chassis racing car, used as a test vehicle for Firestone and as a prototype chassis for the 1966 Formula 1 car, was taken to Zandvoort in November 1965 and a simple sort of wing was tried on the back. With the wing fitted Bruce immediately chopped three seconds off his lap time round the Dutch circuit, and with the wing removed his lap times fell back by the same three seconds. All evidence of the wing was then destroyed as the team determined to use it as their secret weapon for 1966. "Indeed, if the Indy Ford engine had lived up to expectations you would have seen the M2B McLaren with a wing on the back," says Herd.

When the Ford-powered car was used for tire testing at Riverside early in 1966 the car was meant to carry an advanced form of adjustable wing mounted above the transmission. It was designed so that the angle could be altered to suit the amount of downthrust required, but engine trouble curtailed these wing tests. The fact that Dan Gurney was sitting on the pit wall during much of the testing also had a negative effect on the display of new ideas before such an interested spectator.

Elsewhere in the same book Young mentions that the M7A was actually designed to incorporate a chassis-mounted wing, although they didn't use it until after Ferrari and Brabham had used them at Spa.

And while looking for this, I rediscovered the fact that McLaren very often used low tray-like wings on the M7 series cars: there are several pictures.

There's a photo of the device in Doug's McLaren history.

[kayemod]

And while looking for this, I rediscovered the fact that McLaren very often used low tray-like wings on the M7 series cars: there are several pictures.

Yes, but they were hopeless, they didn't work at all, and they only ran them in a single race I think. Some time around 1970 I remember seeing a complete tray endowed engine cover on top of a pile of scrap behind the Colnbrook factory, and someone, probably Alastair Caldwell, had written over it in bold felt-tip, "FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO!" So Not a successful experiment, an aerofoil worked much better

[Nigel Beresford]

Yes, raced in Holland and France, and practised at Silverstone (& raced on M9A). Thereafter never seen again.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 23 August 2012 - 16:57.

[jj2728]

As always the wealth of knowledge on TNF never ceases to amaze. Thanks chaps.

[GMACKIE]

How about the aluminium angle that Dan Gurney added to the rear of the wing to improve the structural strength.

[RStock]

Also similar to GV testing a Ferrari with a semi-auto 'box many years before 1989 and nobody realising the advantages.

That was quite a different animal if I am correct. It was merely an electronically controlled shifter that Forghieri came up with. Gilles put the ki-bosh on it because he didn't trust it as there was no mechanical link.

[Roger Clark]

Just come across this issue of MOTORING NEWS in which the new 1966 312 F1 Ferrari was unveiled.
Look at those tyres.....


Whats the story here I wonder?!

(And just in case anyone thinks it's a case of photoshop, I guarantee it's not - although couldn't swear that MOTORING NEWS photo editor wasn't having a bit of a jape with the airbrush. Although that seems highly pointless.)

Wasn't Ferrari under contract to Dunlop at the time?

[doc knutsen]

Wasn't Ferrari under contract to Dunlop at the time?

There was much talk about who would supply tyres for the Scuderia at the time, and the story I read was that Ferrari showed its new car with no tyre brand name nor pattern visible on purpose, so as not to appear committed. Or to wind up the tyre companies, perhaps.

[Roger Clark]

Rodriguez' Ferrari had run on Firestones at the Mexican Grand Prix, any contractual complications being avoided as the car was nominally entered by NART.

[Bruno]

Are you sure? F1 1965 no n 'floor was by Firestone. P Rodriguez in Mexico was shod with Dunlop as Surtees

êtes vous sûr! en 1965 aucune F1 n' a été chaussée par Firestone. à Mexico, P Rodriguez était chaussé comme Bandini par Dunlop

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Macca
.....There are photos from 1966 of a BRM H16 testing with tyres that were almost slick, with just a 'crows foot' pattern, but I don't know what the results were..........cue 'BRM V4'!

Aren't you describing the short-lived Dunlop CR84?

I think that was the number...

[Roger Clark]

Are you sure? F1 1965 no n 'floor was by Firestone. P Rodriguez in Mexico was shod with Dunlop as Surtees

êtes vous sûr! en 1965 aucune F1 n' a été chaussée par Firestone. à Mexico, P Rodriguez était chaussé comme Bandini par Dunlop

Rodriguez tried Firestones in practice but an accident prevented further evaluation.

[Bruno]

ok, and it takes 1512/F1 of Scarfiotti for Saturday and the race (Dunlop)

ok, et il prend la 1512/F1 de Scarfiotti pour le samedi et la course (Dunlop)

[David Wright]

Aren't you describing the short-lived Dunlop CR84?

I think that was the number...

It was the CR70. The CR84 was pretty successful.

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