58 replies to this topic

[Odseybod]

I'm gradually working through a large box of my father's black and white photos - whilst the images of my first bath are of course wonderful, the motor sport images are probably of more TNF relevance.

Fortunately, the events are identified but not the 'runners and riders', so it's over to the experts. We'll start with the June 1947 Prescott meeting, at which Sidney Allard had his major off-course excursion at the spot that became known as Allard's Gap (or nowadays just Allards). There's also what looks to have been an early outing for the Cooper 500 - with Eric Brandon?

First, a couple of paddock shots:





Now on track. We're working back from the finishing line - Prescott seems much more verdant than it is now.



Looks rather like the Cognac GN, with quite a bulky pilot on board.



An Allard - with Sidney at the helm? The car park in the background seems quite full.



Looks like an Alta. Crash hat were apparently not compulsory.



Another Allard - or the Allard? - making good progress up the hill, despite a surprising amount of understeer.



Cooper takes a nice tight line. Spectators look on.



The Alta (?) again, plus intrepid reporter or official in the target area.



This looks a bit like the Steyr Allard with twin rear tyres, but I'm probably wrong.





Finally, a nice touring Bugatti.



Over to you!

[uechtel]

Lovely!!!

First, a couple of paddock shots:

Over to you!

That two coloured Frazer Nash / BMW 328 on the right with the open bonnet looks like Gillie Tyrer´s.

[Cirrus]

I love the piles of wings and spare wheels in the first shot.

[Collombin]

I swear the guy in the Cooper looks like SCM, but I think 1947 would be a year or so too early.

[Robin Fairservice]

I swear the guy in the Cooper looks like SCM, but I think 1947 would be a year or so too early.

Moss arrived in 1948. I think that the driver is John Cooper.

[Vitesse2]

Moss arrived in 1948. I think that the driver is John Cooper.

Agreed on John Cooper. And Stirling never had that much hair!

[D-Type]

Agreed on John Cooper. And Stirling never had that much hair!

And didn't 'Pa' Moss insist right from the start that Stirling always wore a crash helmet?

Edited by D-Type, 01 September 2012 - 17:57.

[CiroMenotti]

No. 59 is G.F. Sleight in an Alta
No. 64 is Maj. C.P. (Peter) Vaughan's Becke Powerplus

[Odseybod]

No. 59 is G.F. Sleight in an Alta
No. 64 is Maj. C.P. (Peter) Vaughan's Becke Powerplus

Thank you!

[David McKinney]

The Bugatti (bottom picture) is Ken Bear's T51

[Odseybod]

The Bugatti (bottom picture) is Ken Bear's T51

Thank you, Mr McK.

[CiroMenotti]

The Cooper is indeed John Cooper (No. 46)
The two successive Allard pictures are Sid Allard's car - 3500cc according to the programme (No. 76).

(Suggest you make a note of this information, in case the thread is arbitrarily deleted........)

[Odseybod]

The Cooper is indeed John Cooper (No. 46)
The two successive Allard pictures are Sid Allard's car - 3500cc according to the programme (No. 76).

(Suggest you make a note of this information, in case the thread is arbitrarily deleted........)

Very many thanks for this. I am indeed updating the file names for each pic to incorporate TNF wisdom as it emerges - where would we be without it?!

I think Cockfosters is next on the scanning agenda ...

[HiRich]

The second photo shows the Wing Co. Frank Aikens in his homebuilt 500. If you look closely, the 'fairing' just above the front wheel is in fact his knee - due to something of a design error, the driving position was rather cramped.

ETA: I don't recognise the car with the grille in the queue behind him. I doubt it's a 500, perhaps an Austin 7 (in those days Prescott still ran it as a 750cc class)?

Edited by HiRich, 02 September 2012 - 15:11.

[D-Type]

Is the last car the Steyr-Allard? Or might it be the AJB (without its front fairing)?

[Odseybod]

The second photo shows the Wing Co. Frank Aikens in his homebuilt 500. If you look closely, the 'fairing' just above the front wheel is in fact his knee - due to something of a design error, the driving position was rather cramped.

ETA: I don't recognise the car with the grille in the queue behind him. I doubt it's a 500, perhaps an Austin 7 (in those days Prescott still ran it as a 750cc class)?

Thank you. I've heard of sticking one's neck out, but sticking one's knee out is on an altogether different level on the bravery/lunacy scale.

I did think the car behind it with the grille did indeed look like an Austin 750 single-seater - either that or the Issigonis Special?

[David McKinney]

Is the last car the Steyr-Allard? Or might it be the AJB (without its front fairing)?

I'm sure it's the Steyr-Allard

[Allan Lupton]

I did think the car behind it with the grille did indeed look like an Austin 750 single-seater - either that or the Issigonis Special?

Don't think it's either because it seems to have a top suspension link which Austin Sevens (even the twincam) and the Lightweight do not.

There can be no doubt about the Steyr-Allard! Anyway Archie Butterworth's AJB didn't appear until 1948,

Edited by Allan Lupton, 03 September 2012 - 07:48.

[Odseybod]

Don't think it's either because it seems to have a top suspension link which Asutin Sevens (even the twincam) and the Lightweight do not.

There can be no doubt about the Steyr-Allard! Anyway Archie Butterworth's AJB didn't appear until 1948,

Thanks Allan. Glad I got something right!

[Sharman]

Don't you think the wheels and brakes on the "Austin 7 single seater" are a little large for an Austin 7?

[David McKinney]

Don't you think the wheels and brakes on the "Austin 7 single seater" are a little large for an Austin 7?

I thought the car had a Frazer Nash frontal aspect, but then though the wheels were too small for that option

[sabrejet]

Am I right in thinking that some of these wonderful shots show cars coming down the course, at Pardon? I'm sure I recall that the return road wasn't put in until later in the 50s (or 60s?), so it would make sense.

[Tim Murray]

It doesn't look like Pardon to me, and John Cooper is obviously on a competitive run. It looks to me like the original Ettore's, with Orchard in the background.

[Vitesse2]

Am I right in thinking that some of these wonderful shots show cars coming down the course, at Pardon? I'm sure I recall that the return road wasn't put in until later in the 50s (or 60s?), so it would make sense.

The return road was there pre-war. Reports of Wimille's visit in 1939 mention that he was unable to use it, allegedly because the car was too wide:

Wimille’s car was a one-off built by the Bugatti factory. Using twin rear wheels, to aid traction and to cope with the power from the big straight-eight supercharged engine. It was not possible for the car to use the rough return road from the top of the hill. The width of the car has been stated as the problem here but it may also have been linked with the wheelbase and condition of the return road. However it has been stated that proceedings had to be held up after each run for the Works’ Bugatti to return to the paddock by way of the Hill itself. Thus the spectators were able to get a second look at the car on its descent.

http://www.bugatti.c...1/wimille3.aspx

[Allan Lupton]

It doesn't look like Pardon to me, and John Cooper is obviously on a competitive run. It looks to me like the original Ettore's, with Orchard in the background.

Ettore's bend is on the modern extension and what we are looking at is Orchard. The hedge in the background is long gone and the rising field behind the gateful of spectators is now called Ettore's Field (above and next to the paddock).

[Tim Murray]

You're absolutely right, Allan. For some reason I had it in my head that the long left-hander was Orchard. Apologies.

[Dutchy]

A few more attempts at identifying some of the cars:

Picture 1. The don't think that is the Becke Powerplus (surely it never ran as a ports car?). Looks much more like a Riley Ulster Imp to me.

Picture 2. I agree it's Wing Commander Aikens Triumph powered 500. Behind is Geoff Richardson's Riley-ERA.

Picture 4. I think that's the Norris Special

[Odseybod]

A few more attempts at identifying some of the cars:

Picture 1. The don't think that is the Becke Powerplus (surely it never ran as a ports car?). Looks much more like a Riley Ulster Imp to me.

Picture 2. I agree it's Wing Commander Aikens Triumph powered 500. Behind is Geoff Richardson's Riley-ERA.

Picture 4. I think that's the Norris Special

Many thanks!

[david venables]

A few more attempts at identifying some of the cars:

Picture 1. The don't think that is the Becke Powerplus (surely it never ran as a ports car?). Looks much more like a Riley Ulster Imp to me.

Picture 2. I agree it's Wing Commander Aikens Triumph powered 500. Behind is Geoff Richardson's Riley-ERA.

Picture 4. I think that's the Norris Special

Definitely the ERA-Riley, but Sheila Darbyshire was driving it in 1947.

[Odseybod]

Definitely the ERA-Riley, but Sheila Darbyshire was driving it in 1947.

Another piece of the jigsaw. Thank you.

[Collombin]

And didn't 'Pa' Moss insist right from the start that Stirling always wore a crash helmet?

Pics from 1947 show him competing with no helmet and a surprising amount of hair, although that doesn't alter the fact that he wasn't at Prescott that year!

[JBaxter]

Picture 4 I agree with Dutchy, is probably Norris (Frazer Nash with FWD Alvis engine), I suppose later to be called Norris 1 when Norris II appeared.
I think we can see the cover (not fitted these days) over the carburettor, which of course feeds the blower.
Only thing is we can see "perrot" brake lever (not proper perrot of course), but it was perhaps converted later?

Can't seem to post this picture, but I hope the link works. Scroll down, bottom right first page.
http://www.google.co...p...isch&itbs=1


I wonder if picture 1, no 64 is the Slug?

Edited by JBaxter, 10 September 2012 - 11:41.

[Dutchy]

You could well be right. I'm not happy with my suggestion of a Riley Ulster Imp - the proportions are all wrong and that outside gearlever is correct for a 'Nash and very incorrect for a Riley

[D-Type]

Pics from 1947 show him competing with no helmet and a surprising amount of hair, although that doesn't alter the fact that he wasn't at Prescott that year!

Hmmmm, pictures in All my races do show him without a helmet in 1947. But only in the BMW!
On Page 15, in the introduction to 1948, SCM says "One thing my father did insist on was that, from the start of my racing career, I should wear a crash hat. I told him that it was a bit 'sissy' as none of the really fast drivers like Villoresi,, Wimille, and Ascari used one. They chose cloth helmets. Anyway I had to use an enormous black leather-covered device until Herbert Johnson came out with an attractive polo helmet with a peak, and a visor if I wanted it." Consequently. every picture in the Cooper, including his debut at Prescott in May 1948, shows him wearing a helmet.

Tony, please keep the pictures coming.

Edited by D-Type, 10 September 2012 - 12:36.

[Odseybod]

Hmmmm, pictures in All my races do show him without a helmet in 1947. But only in the BMW!
On Page 15, in the introduction to 1948, SCM says "One thing my father did insist on was that, from the start of my racing career, I should wear a crash hat. I told him that it was a bit 'sissy' as none of the really fast drivers like Villoresi,, Wimille, and Ascari used one. They chose cloth helmets. Anyway I had to use an enormous black leather-covered device until Herbert Johnson came out with an attractive polo helmet with a peak, and a visor if I wanted it." Consequently. every picture in the Cooper, including his debut at Prescott in May 1948, shows him wearing a helmet.

Tony, please keep the pictures coming.

Thanks to everyone for their knowledge and insights - much appreciated and carwefully noted with each pic.

I have Cockfosters 1945 ready to roll this evening - would the Mods prefer it posted here or with an existing Cockfosters thread? If no answer, I'll post them here, on the assumption that they can be merged later if necessary.

Also trying to decide whether to include a pic of an RAF (?) airfield, which was with the same batch of negatives - but can't find any mention of an RAF Cockfosters. WTH, might as well include it anyway for Blenheim fanciers ... (if there are any).

[David McKinney]

Preferably a new Cockfosters Photos thread

[Odseybod]

Preferably a new Cockfosters Photos thread

Thanks David - shall do.

[cooper997]

Time to bring these wonderful Phillip Turner photos back to the top.

Tony mentions in post 1 of these being from June 1947. But there's 2 ways I can approach this. Was there a Prescott meeting in June and if not, could they be from the May 11th, 1947 meeting? Why I ask is that on the June 1947 IOTA is the Cooper 500s of Eric Brandon & John Cooper sitting in the paddock, of what is said to be the May meeting.

So getting to the point, does anyone have access to a programme for the May 47 Prescott to confirm who was in which car please? Those Coopers being the T2 & T3. So Cooper 500 numbers 1 & 2.

Thanks in advance.

Stephen

[David McKinney]

There were 1947 Prescott meetings in both May (12th) and June (15th), but I don't have programmes, and MotorSport didn't publish and Cooper pictures

[humphries]

11th May 500cc class #58 Lones, #59 Strang, #60 Aikens, #61 Brandon, #62 Cooper

15th June 750cc class #45 Brandon, #46 Cooper, #48 Aikens, #80 Strang (the 500cc cars in that class)
The Lones's Tiger Kitten #54 had a 996c engine and was in the 1500cc class.

John

[cooper997]

Thank you John & David.

Those details are exactly what I was looking for.

Much appreciated.

Stephen

[Eric Dunsdon]

Thanks to everyone for their knowledge and insights - much appreciated and carwefully noted with each pic.



Also trying to decide whether to include a pic of an RAF (?) airfield, which was with the same batch of negatives - but can't find any mention of an RAF Cockfosters. WTH, might as well include it anyway for Blenheim fanciers ... (if there are any).

There never was an RAF Cockfosters. The roads used by the cars were part of the Bevan housing estate that my pals and I used to race our pedal cycles around a couple of years later. I look forward to more of your excellent and interesting pictures. Thank you.

[cooper997]

Such a pity all of the Phillip Turner photos have disappeared from this thread.

 

Here's a David Roscoe Prescott film

 

https://youtu.be/jqG8erfMVIs

 

Stephen

[RogerFrench]

Love that film, "Uncles" Arthur Mallock and Holly Birkett in particular.

[oliver heal]

Just discovered programmes for Prescott May 11th 1947, July 20th 1947, and September 14th 1947. Are there any unanswered questions that they might help with?

[cooper997]

Oliver, would it be possible to get scans of the racing car classes pages from the July 20, 1947 programme please? If so, I'll forward you my email address via the TNF pm system.

 

Thank you.

 

Stephen

[uechtel]

As ususal I am interested to learn about all BMW / Frazer Nash entries.

 

For May 11th I have in the 3 litre class #24 Tony Crook, #25 D. Prosser (first name perhaps?), #26 Ken Watkins and #28 Gillie Tyrer. In the 1,5 litre class G.(?) Claridge on a Frazer Nash (but I don´t know whether it is one of the BMW-based ones) and without a number.

 

July 20th: 3 litre class #23 Crook, #30 Tyrer, #33 Dickie Stoop. #37 GD (?) Claridge, #38 OScar Moore. 1,5 litre class #3 J.Virr/N.West and #14 Ron Willis

 

September 14th: 3 litre class: #17 Moore, #20 Crook, #23 Tyrer

 

Are there more?

[cooper997]

uechtel,

May 11, 1947 cars numbered 24,25,26 & 28 are all entered as Frazer Nash B.M.W 1971cc in the Class 3 Sports 1500 - 3000cc unsupercharged and Crook is in Class 8 Racing Cars 1501 - 2000cc as well.

 

G D Claridge in Class 2 Sports up to 1500cc unsupercharged, as #14 Frazer Nash 1496cc. Then in Class 2A Sports up to 1500cc supercharged, there's #15 R W Pollock Frazer Nash (s) 1498cc

 

I'll check the September details when I have a moment.

 

Stephen

[uechtel]

Thank you very much!

[cooper997]

September 14, 1947 has the following listed

 

Note - the programme has some times written in, but not for the following.3 classes. So further research to establish if they are Did Not Arrive in time or simply not written in (see Classes 7 & 9 though).

Class 1 Sports up to 1500cc non-supercharged

#7 G D Claridge Frazer Nash 1496cc

 

Class 1A Sports up to 1500cc supercharged

#14 R W Pollock Frazer Nash (s) 1498cc

 

Class 2 Sports 1501 - 3000cc non-supercharged - states Tyrer was class record holder with 50.81sec set at the July meeting

#17 O Moore Frazer Nash B.M.W 1971cc

#20 T A D Crook Frazer Nash B.M.W 1971cc

#21 W E Wykes Frazer Nash 1657cc

#23 G Tyrer Frazer Nash B.M.W 1971cc

#24 M F Finnemore Frazer Nash 1657cc

 

Class 6  Racing Cars 1101 to 1500cc - state AFP Fane Frazer Nash as Class record holder with 47.72secs set July 30, 1939

#66 Maj C P Vaughan Fane-Nash (s) 1496cc - times written in appear to be 53.83 & 52.92secs

 

Class 7 Racing Cars 1501 - 2000cc

#20 T A D Crook Frazer Nash B.M.W 1971cc - times written in appear to be 59.98 & 56.76secs

 

There was also a Class 9 Teams event. The Frazer Nash team has #14, 24 & 21 listed Times written in appear to be 61.09, 59.66 & 63.33 for each 1st run (only) respectively.

 

Stephen

 

edit to corect spelling for Wykes

Edited by cooper997, 14 July 2016 - 08:54.