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#1 Darren1

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 19:43

Now I'm not Maldonado's biggest fan, but why did he get a penalty for blocking in Q1, when hulkenburg made it through?? If Nico had gone out in the session then yes, but with him making it through and everything being set back to "0", it never affected anything. Is this just another case of stewards wanting to "get involved" when there is no need to??

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#2 korzeniow

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 19:48

Didn't you read FIA's decision? Maldonado was deliberately blocking hulkenberg despite team telling him to move over. Taking into account what he did earlier to Perez in Monaco and to Hamilton in Spa last year I think he wanted to take revenge after what happened between him and hulkenberg in Hungary

#3 Muppetmad

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 19:52

I'd also question whether Hulkenberg had to use a new set of tyres to secure his place in Q2; that right there is a disadvantage that would warrant a penalty in my eyes.

#4 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 20:07

Didn't you read FIA's decision? Maldonado was deliberately blocking hulkenberg despite team telling him to move over. Taking into account what he did earlier to Perez in Monaco and to Hamilton in Spa last year I think he wanted to take revenge after what happened between him and hulkenberg in Hungary

It doesn't say anywhere it was intentional or deliberate. And as far as I know nothing happened between him and Hulkenberg in Hungary. Edit: also, it was between turns 18 and 19 - approaching the chicane in other words, which is always a place where there is traffic problems. But because it's Maldonado it's all part of his evilness :rolleyes:

Edited by TFLB, 01 September 2012 - 20:09.


#5 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 20:17

Doesn't matter if Hulkenburg went through or not. Can't remember if he had to use a new set of tyres or not, but whether he did or not, blocking is blocking, and if you block, you should be penalised. That's what happens. The fact the FIA release says he was warned by his team not to hold him up but did anyway means really he had very little defence, and so a penalty was the only option.

#6 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 20:23

Doesn't matter if Hulkenburg went through or not. Can't remember if he had to use a new set of tyres or not, but whether he did or not, blocking is blocking, and if you block, you should be penalised. That's what happens. The fact the FIA release says he was warned by his team not to hold him up but did anyway means really he had very little defence, and so a penalty was the only option.

It certainly didn't use to be that way. I think it's only this year or last that the penalties for blocking without effect have been used. Certainly I remember quite recently such an incident, with Schumacher I think, where he blocked someone, but didn't get penalised because that driver got through anyway.

#7 ForeverF1

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 20:27

It doesn't say anywhere it was intentional or deliberate. And as far as I know nothing happened between him and Hulkenberg in Hungary. Edit: also, it was between turns 18 and 19 - approaching the chicane in other words, which is always a place where there is traffic problems. But because it's Maldonado it's all part of his evilness :rolleyes:


Pastor, should be stood down for a few races, if only to remind him that he is not the 'only driver who is on the circuit'. He wants to win, yes, as do they all, but, being called into the stewards office, at most races, is not the way.

#8 Afterburner

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 20:35

I want to know why Karthikeyan wasn't investigated for blocking--did you see how he held up Grosjean? He's developing a reputation for being incredibly stubborn when he needs to move over for another car.

#9 g1n

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 20:37



haha angry Pasta does it again! :drunk: :rolleyes:

Edited by g1n, 01 September 2012 - 20:38.


#10 ForeverF1

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 20:38

I want to know why Karthikeyan wasn't investigated for blocking--did you see how he held up Grosjean? He's developing a reputation for being incredibly stubborn when he needs to move over for another car.

No, please provide more.

#11 Afterburner

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 20:50

No, please provide more.

Can't find a video of it on the web, but if you can rewatch Quali, they showed a replay of it at the end of Q1. He gets in Grosjean's way on the way into Pouhon (might've been somewhere else), and then uses all of the road on the exit, stopping him from getting by.

#12 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 20:51

Pastor, should be stood down for a few races, if only to remind him that he is not the 'only driver who is on the circuit'. He wants to win, yes, as do they all, but, being called into the stewards office, at most races, is not the way.

All this fuss over what was pretty much a non-incident. Goodness me. The Maldonado witch-hunt has reached a new level.

#13 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 20:52

Can't find a video of it on the web, but if you can rewatch Quali, they showed a replay of it at the end of Q1. He gets in Grosjean's way on the way into Pouhon (might've been somewhere else), and then uses all of the road on the exit, stopping him from getting by.

The difference is I think that Karthikeyan was on a 'fast' lap, so didn't have to get out of the way. Maldonado was on an out - or - in lap.

#14 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 20:58

I don't think there's such a thing as a fast lap for Karthikeyan. Maybe a not embarassingly slow lap, but that's about as close as he ever gets to a fast lap.

#15 ForeverF1

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 21:14

All this fuss over what was pretty much a non-incident. Goodness me. The Maldonado witch-hunt has reached a new level.


It is not a "witch hunt", it is Pastor being called to the Stewards Office far too many times.


#16 scheivlak

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 21:16

All this fuss over what was pretty much a non-incident. Goodness me. The Maldonado witch-hunt has reached a new level.

It's just what you get when you try to defend the indefensible.

#17 Skinnyguy

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 21:27

Now I'm not Maldonado's biggest fan, but why did he get a penalty for blocking in Q1, when hulkenburg made it through??


Irrelevant. Getting in the way of a car on a hotlap while you´re not is blocking, regardless of the results.


#18 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 21:32

It's just what you get when you try to defend the indefensible.

I never said he shouldn't have had a penalty. It's the rules. The rules are illogical, but there you go. But he was suggesting Maldonado be banned for it, which is overkill to say the least.

#19 karne

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 21:39

I never said he shouldn't have had a penalty. It's the rules. The rules are illogical, but there you go. But he was suggesting Maldonado be banned for it, which is overkill to say the least.


Phew, someone failed reading comprehension, didn't they?

No-one's saying he should be banned specifically for THIS incident. What people are saying he should be banned for is the cumulation of the bazillion times he's been in front of the stewards this year. He's clearly not learning anything from any of the times he goes to the office and TBH I don't reckon he'd learn anything from a race ban either.

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#20 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 21:40

It certainly didn't use to be that way. I think it's only this year or last that the penalties for blocking without effect have been used.


Nonsense.... look at that blocking penalty:

#21 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 21:51

Nonsense.... look at that blocking penalty:

Unfortunately for you, Villeneuve didn't get punished for that. :wave:

#22 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 21:53

Phew, someone failed reading comprehension, didn't they?

No-one's saying he should be banned specifically for THIS incident. What people are saying he should be banned for is the cumulation of the bazillion times he's been in front of the stewards this year. He's clearly not learning anything from any of the times he goes to the office and TBH I don't reckon he'd learn anything from a race ban either.

But surely you can see that it's a ridiculous overreaction? Maldonado by accident blocks someone in qualifying, something that happens many times to most drivers, and that would get people talking about a ban again? It's ridiculous.

#23 scheivlak

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 21:58

I never said he shouldn't have had a penalty. It's the rules. The rules are illogical, but there you go. But he was suggesting Maldonado be banned for it, which is overkill to say the least.

That's overkill, yes.

But to say that the rules are illogical without any further explication is overkill as well. And it would be quite a mess if an individual driver would be permitted to do things aganst the rules because he just thinks that they are illogical. If you accept that "It's the rules", you must accept the consequences.

It's your suggestion of a witchhunt that caused my remark, because the critical comments from other posters are simply triggered by the OP who suggested that you can do anything against the rules as long as there are no consequences. When you state something like that, you trigger the response.

Maldonado gets exactly what he deserved. Not a ban, not a five place grid penalty, but a three place grid penalty. A decision by the stewards that looks a bit lenient, but is pretty well formulated and explained.

#24 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:03

Unfortunately for you, Villeneuve didn't get punished for that. :wave:


Yes he was.

#25 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:05

That's overkill, yes.

But to say that the rules are illogical without any further explication is overkill as well. And it would be quite a mess if an individual driver would be permitted to do things aganst the rules because he just thinks that they are illogical. If you accept that "It's the rules", you must accept the consequences.

It's your suggestion of a witchhunt that caused my remark, because the critical comments from other posters are simply triggered by the OP who suggested that you can do anything against the rules as long as there are no consequences. When you state something like that, you trigger the response.

Maldonado gets exactly what he deserved. Not a ban, not a five place grid penalty, but a three place grid penalty. A decision by the stewards that looks a bit lenient, but is pretty well formulated and explained.

I thought it was pretty obvious why the rules are illogical: if it's an innocent mistake and doesn't harm anyone, then it shouldn't be punished. But rules are rules, and I never said he shouldn't have been punished.

My comment about a witch-hunt, I stand by. I mean, look at Korzeniow. He said that Maldonado's blocking was clearly intentional, despite there being no evidence of that. Another poster said he wanted to get revenge on Hulkenberg. Then yet another poster suggested he should be banned. Whenever Maldonado does anything wrong, there is immediately much more criticism than any other driver would get in his position. That's a witch-hunt.

Yes, Maldonado got what he deserved, because he broke the rule. But that should not justify ridiculous overreaction from people on this forum.

#26 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:05

Yes he was.

Link?

#27 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:09

No link for you. Takes two seconds on google if you really need proof.

You dismissed my post with a stupid comment and a stupid smiley.. how about getting your facts straight in the first place?

#28 scheivlak

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:11

Link?

Villeneuve was a little disgruntled with eighth. He would be even less pleased when the stewards deleted his Q3 qualifying times as a punishment for impeding Fisichella.

This had not been anything like as clear a case as the Sato/Klien incident in Q1, but with modern aerodynamics a car does not have to be that far in front to cost their rival time and grip.

"I guess they wanted to make any example of me," mused Villeneuve, who would consequently drop to 10th, before rising to ninth when Webber's engine penalty was applied. "That's okay, as long as it's going to be the same for everyone else at the other races..."


http://www.autosport...d/546/rid/5/p/3



#29 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:13

No link for you. Takes two seconds on google if you really need proof.

You dismissed my post with a stupid comment and a stupid smiley.. how about getting your facts straight in the first place?

I already googled it. I used Manipe F1, usually very reliable. Under the page for German Gp no penalties for JV were mentioned. I then realised while writing this comment that in fact it was the European Gp, and indeed, JV had his three fastest qualifying times deleted. Sorry, my mistake! :blush: :cry:

Edit: actually, no, my point still stands. It was in Q2; Fisi didn't reach Q2 as a result of the block, so therefore it was not blocking without effect.

Edited by TFLB, 01 September 2012 - 22:14.


#30 PoleMan

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:14

It is not a "witch hunt", it is Pastor being called to the Stewards Office far too many times.

But he HAS been "punished" several times. The concern is there is now a "presumption of guilt" with Pastor that shouldn't be there. A ban for blocking should be taken on a case by case.

The fact he was penalized just 3 positions and not the normal 5-place grid drop, is indicative, of the incident being less egregious in comparison to previous driver's blocking moves. Blocking on a race circuit is always going to be a matter of interpretation and degree, but when the sports legislators start penalizing hard-earned final grid positions for something that happened in Q1 where both drivers "passed through," I think the bar needs to be high. It's not unreasonable for fans to question whether that punishment fit the crime.

People were calling for a race ban for Lewis last year after he was involved in a series of incidents. And what about Grosjean THIS YEAR, who has seemed to make avoidable contact with other drivers at most grand prix weekends? :confused:

Thankfully, that hasn't happened, but the narrative that Maldonado is "dangerous" and must be "reined in" seems to have taken firm hold.

Just because an official has a whistle, doesn't mean they must to blow it, and we've seen examples of such restraint time and time again. To me, arbitrarily enforced rules and "over-officiating" are more dangerous to the sport than Maldonado blocking. I'd still love to see this incident if anyone has it.

Edited by PoleMan, 01 September 2012 - 22:17.


#31 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:16

Villeneuve was a little disgruntled with eighth. He would be even less pleased when the stewards deleted his Q3 qualifying times as a punishment for impeding Fisichella.

This had not been anything like as clear a case as the Sato/Klien incident in Q1, but with modern aerodynamics a car does not have to be that far in front to cost their rival time and grip.

"I guess they wanted to make any example of me," mused Villeneuve, who would consequently drop to 10th, before rising to ninth when Webber's engine penalty was applied. "That's okay, as long as it's going to be the same for everyone else at the other races..."


http://www.autosport...d/546/rid/5/p/3

But he stopped Fisi reaching Q2 so it was a different situation to Maldonado's. I've acknowledged my error in saying he wasn't punished in my previous comment.

#32 Skinnyguy

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:20

Edit: actually, no, my point still stands.


But your point is nonsense. "Blocking without consequences" has to be punished just as passing under yellows without consequences safety-wise, jumping the start without gaining positions, or speeding in the pitlane without consequences in the final result.

#33 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:23

But your point is nonsense. "Blocking without consequences" has to be punished just as passing under yellows without consequences safety-wise, jumping the start without gaining positions, or speeding in the pitlane without consequences in the final result.

No it isn't. It never used to be punished. That's my point. Only in the last year or so.

#34 scheivlak

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:25

But he stopped Fisi reaching Q2 so it was a different situation to Maldonado's. I've acknowledged my error in saying he wasn't punished in my previous comment.

I posted this before that - as you can see it was in reaction to your earlier statement that Jacques wasn't punished. He was.
I didn't say it was comparable.

As a sidenote I think that in this case JV was IMHO completely right BTW. The stewards' decision about the JV/GF incident was almost comparable with that about Alonso/Massa in Monza later that year.

#35 scheivlak

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:26

No it isn't. It never used to be punished. That's my point. Only in the last year or so.

There is a contradiction between "never was" and "only last year"  ;)

#36 Skinnyguy

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:29

No it isn't. It never used to be punished. That's my point. Only in the last year or so.


You simply got that one out of nowhere and stick to it. People coasting too much on the inlap of single lap qualifying sessions and getting passed without bothering the qualifer at all were punished.

#37 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:29

There is a contradiction between "never was" and "only last year" ;)

It's clear to everyone who's not trying to be difficult that my comment meant 'before last season/this season it never used to be punished.

#38 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:30

You simply got that one out of nowhere and stick to it. People coasting too much on the inlap of single lap qualifying sessions and getting passed without bothering the qualifer at all were punished.

No, they weren't.

#39 scheivlak

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:32

It's clear to everyone who's not trying to be difficult that my comment meant 'before last season/this season it never used to be punished.

Which means that punishing this kind of behaviour is the current practice.

Edited by scheivlak, 01 September 2012 - 22:33.


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#40 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:33

Which means that punishing this behaviour is the current practice.

Which is why I haven't said Maldonado shouldn't be punished. I was explaining that I don't agree with the rule, but that's all.

#41 Fourjays

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:33

But surely you can see that it's a ridiculous overreaction? Maldonado by accident blocks someone in qualifying, something that happens many times to most drivers, and that would get people talking about a ban again? It's ridiculous.

The reason it is ridiculous is because he hasn't been dealt with sufficiently enough for incidents far more serious than a little bit of blocking in qualifying. If he'd got the well-deserved race bans for deliberate crashes at Spa '11 and Monaco '12 then he may have learned a lesson and the fans would feel "justice" had been served and it would be just a blocking incident. I don't know about others here, but I have zero-tolerance towards any driver that intentionally rams another in open wheel motorsport. It is dangerous enough when cars come together completely by accident. In both cases he was punished less than drivers have been for simple mistakes during overtaking attempts. That is what I call ridiculous.

Edited by Fourjays, 01 September 2012 - 22:34.


#42 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:38

It's clear to everyone who's not trying to be difficult that my comment meant 'before last season/this season it never used to be punished.


The thing is the notion of 'blocking without consequence' is your own fabrication.

The Stewarding being flaky about blocking or impeding is nothing new or quite recent, and it certainly wasn't created for this Maldonado witch-hunt you're also trying to see..
IMO it's very simple; Maldonado is a fast driver but his situation awareness is remarkably poor so he gets himself into all sorts of avoidable problems which the Stewards are incapable of not noticing. The Stewards don't have an agenda, it's just human nature to remember something that is constantly being reminded to you.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 01 September 2012 - 22:39.


#43 Skinnyguy

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:41

No, they weren't.


Oh yes, they were. It wasn´t allowed to get passed by the next car, whether you cost the other guy time or not. It didn´t matter.

It was even tougher than now, now if you cost someone time, you pay. And that´s how it should be. If you screw someone´s lap for no reason, you should pay, regardless of if it ends costing him grid slots or not, just like if you pass lots of blue flags without yielding you pay for it, you cost the other guy positions in the end or not.

#44 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:48

Oh yes, they were. It wasn´t allowed to get passed by the next car, whether you cost the other guy time or not. It didn´t matter.

It was even tougher than now, now if you cost someone time, you pay. And that´s how it should be. If you screw someone´s lap for no reason, you should pay, regardless of if it ends costing him grid slots or not, just like if you pass lots of blue flags without yielding you pay for it, you cost the other guy positions in the end or not.

No, really, they weren't.

#45 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:49

The thing is the notion of 'blocking without consequence' is your own fabrication.

The Stewarding being flaky about blocking or impeding is nothing new or quite recent, and it certainly wasn't created for this Maldonado witch-hunt you're also trying to see..
IMO it's very simple; Maldonado is a fast driver but his situation awareness is remarkably poor so he gets himself into all sorts of avoidable problems which the Stewards are incapable of not noticing. The Stewards don't have an agenda, it's just human nature to remember something that is constantly being reminded to you.

It's not my own fabrication. The policy seems like it used to be: no effect on other driver's position = no penalty.

#46 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:49

It was even tougher than now, now if you cost someone time, you pay.


I disagree with that.. For instance I think the example I posted previously about Villeneuve shouldn't have been punished.. Fisichella was so far away he would have been pretty hard to see in the BMW mirrors, yet there is no question he was impeded if you stick to the strict definition of the word.

It's always down to the judgment of the Stewards, they'll get it right most of the time but not every time. There's nothing to indicate they were wrong this time with Maldonado.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 01 September 2012 - 22:52.


#47 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:50

The reason it is ridiculous is because he hasn't been dealt with sufficiently enough for incidents far more serious than a little bit of blocking in qualifying. If he'd got the well-deserved race bans for deliberate crashes at Spa '11 and Monaco '12 then he may have learned a lesson and the fans would feel "justice" had been served and it would be just a blocking incident. I don't know about others here, but I have zero-tolerance towards any driver that intentionally rams another in open wheel motorsport. It is dangerous enough when cars come together completely by accident. In both cases he was punished less than drivers have been for simple mistakes during overtaking attempts. That is what I call ridiculous.

So what does accidentely getting in someone's way have to do with intentional ramming. Oh yes: nothing.

#48 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:54

It's always down to the judgment of the Stewards, they'll get it right most of the time but not every time. There's nothing to indicate they were wrong this time with Maldonado.

The stewards weren't wrong at all, but the rule is unfair I feel. Such is life, I can complain about it all I like but it's not going to change. But all the people calling for him to be banned for blocking are deluded. No point arguing about this anymore, I've got better things to do like sleeping. I'm sure you have too.

#49 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 22:59

The stewards weren't wrong at all, but the rule is unfair I feel. Such is life, I can complain about it all I like but it's not going to change. But all the people calling for him to be banned for blocking are deluded. No point arguing about this anymore, I've got better things to do like sleeping. I'm sure you have too.


'all the people' as in you have enough fingers on one hand to count them.

I think for once the Stewards have done a good job, and instead of being a drama queen about it, let's appreciate the entirely reasonable explanation they've given us:

The driver of Car 18 was warned by his team not to "hold up" Car 12 which was behind him, yet he
clearly did impede Car 12. However as Car 12 continued into Q2 a more severe penalty was not
considered appropriate.



#50 TFLB

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 23:03

'all the people' as in you have enough fingers on one hand to count them.

Yes, all the people could mean 2 or 100 or more. In this case it's 2 or 3. The use of the phrase is still fine though.

I think for once the Stewards have done a good job, and instead of being a drama queen about it, let's appreciate the entirely reasonable explanation they've given us:

Yes, they've done a good job. They don't make up the rules do they. The explanation is fine. But honestly, I'm not the one overreacting, neither are you particularly.