Jump to content


Photo

Driver Liability


  • Please log in to reply
51 replies to this topic

#1 pottiella

pottiella
  • Member

  • 342 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 03 September 2012 - 11:26

Fernando Alonso has yet again made a statement on drivers having to learn to be more conscious and 'sensible' on track, which you have probably read in this article:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/102215

The thing is, love him or hate him, he's one of the few drivers, and probably the only among the top lot who has right to make this comment - and if anything, a testament that it is possible to be aggressive and successful without having to cause crashes.

The guy was on the verge of equally Schumachers 24 consecutive races in points; and aside from team botchups (let's face it, he probably lost the 2010 championship as a result of one) that happen to all these drivers, it's not about Alonso winning points, but that even by plenty of aggressive moves, he has never caused a crash in those 23 races...and I might be wrong here, but the last time he didn't finish in the points was in 2010 British GP, when he was penalised with a pitstop penalty. When was the last time he caused a crash with another driver?

The point is, the guy hasn't been any less successful or lauded for being a brilliant 'racing driver' (notably as a result of being relentless and ruthless)

You hear so many drivers (no names mentioned because of folk being oversensitive with their biases) saying 'they don't regret what they did' and that 'they wont change how they drive' because they somehow feel they can uphold a sense of being a 'racer' - like without taking undue risks they will not succeed.

We all know (for long term F1 fans) that the best drivers do have to take risks...they don't hunt down their competitors by always sitting waiting for the next pitstop. They make the best of opportunities, and that does include making a move on another driver they think will pay off both in the short term and long term.

And it's one thing being faster than another driver to feel that you can overtake or 'squeeze' the driver enough to take the position (the latter which I've never really had a problem with - as long as they are safe about it); but my questions are:

Do you agree that taking a 'do or die' approach, regardless of the consequences makes a better racing driver?

Where does the line cross between being an exciting driver and recklessness?

And, on the subject of the reason that triggered Alonso's comments (first he mentioned it about Maldonado) - has Grosjean as a (arguably but in very popular belief) potentially successful racing driver with growing experience, been a 'reckless' driver or 'brave' in the light of taking risks which might pay off big time?

My final thought is: there is a big difference in my opinion in crashes that are caused these days by driver risk taking to the ruthless crashes we used to have in the 80s and before - the latter were no less reckless, but it is widely accepted that driving standards have had to be improved in order to reduce the risks to drivers themselves, to avoid potentially fatal accidents...i.e. Alonso's comments of being more 'responsible'.

Is he just being boring?

I personally don't think so - and largely because I can't dispute that his consistency and success has come about from having a balance between ruthlessness and responsibility; being measured in every way.


Let me know what you think!

Advertisement

#2 BlackCat

BlackCat
  • Member

  • 804 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 03 September 2012 - 11:50

to avoid future "unresponsible driving", Balestre should have DQ-ed Senna for life. and Mosley should have DQ-ed Schumacher for life. it was not done, so the only way to get rid of "game over, start again?" mentality is to get some fataliies to cool others down. i know it's not a popular option...

#3 Mila

Mila
  • Member

  • 5,714 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:14

right, BlackCat. the FIA made its bed, and now it suddenly dons on them that they don't want to sleep in it? season after season, they've encouraged hack driving through the lack of enforcement. if they had any shame, they would be too embarrassed to penalize RG.

by the way, FA ran a competitor off the track going around the Curva Grande last time at Monza. maybe that was a moment he wishes to have back, but, nonetheless, he doesn't deserve a high horse, in my opinion.



#4 Mackey

Mackey
  • Member

  • 1,397 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:21

by the way, FA ran a competitor off the track going around the Curva Grande last time at Monza. maybe that was a moment he wishes to have back, but, nonetheless, he doesn't deserve a high horse, in my opinion.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: He gave just enough room to Vettel, tough but fair. He didn´t need to leave the track.


#5 The Kanisteri

The Kanisteri
  • Member

  • 10,515 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:42

Where was Fernando Alonso's will on liability when Nelson Piquet jr crash plan was exposed at Singapore 2008?

#6 HappySachs

HappySachs
  • Member

  • 125 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 13:11

...and I might be wrong here, but the last time he didn't finish in the points was in 2010 British GP, when he was penalised with a pitstop penalty. When was the last time he caused a crash with another driver?


Pretty sure he had a collision with Button during the 2011 Canadian GP that left his car beeched and put him out of the race.

#7 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 4,330 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 13:14

Button push him off the road, canada 2011 yes.

#8 maverick69

maverick69
  • Member

  • 4,574 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 03 September 2012 - 13:14

Like brake testing people for example Fred.......

#9 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,424 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 03 September 2012 - 13:22

And where was it when he bore into Hamilton, almost puncturing the McLaren in Malaysia 2011?

Having said that, Alonso is one of the guys who always will only apply toughness when necessary and possible.

Edited by Jejking, 03 September 2012 - 13:22.


#10 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 4,330 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 13:35

Alonso is one of the fairest driver in battle. He made some errors and why ? He is always fair and didn't try to push someone off the road, he gives the necessary space.

#11 superdelphinus

superdelphinus
  • Member

  • 1,365 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 03 September 2012 - 14:15

all of them are pretty fair i think. when you think about it, actually there aren't that many 'do or die' moves at the moment. last one i can think of was maldonado on di resta at hungary. drs has taken away the need for them really. i think it's general driving standards that have got poor

#12 HappySachs

HappySachs
  • Member

  • 125 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 14:21

To me, Alonso differs from the other top drivers in that he seems to make his racing decision based on logic and not temperament. He seems to race with the strategic view that his job is to make the best of what he has, e.g. if third is all that is possible then get third and don't end up fourth by trying to chase second. e.g If you have an idiot driver ahead or behind, take that into account and plan for their stupidity.

An example would be how Alonso handled his fading tires in Canada vs Hamilton in Valencia. Alonso gave room to the overtaking cars in the realisation that fighting would be counter productive, Lewis on the other hand shoved Maldonado off the track giving the ubercretin the oppotunity to DNF him. At the other end of the scale there are drivers who can be quite passive leading them to miss overtaking oppotunities. I don't think Alonso falls into this category either as he seems to be capable of agression when it's needed. I wonder if the year at McLaren (faster teammate) and the two at Renault (rubbish car) helped shape him into this mode of thought?

Anyway, I think if this midset was more common there would be a lot less incidents in races. I think it's no coindicence that the other drivers who show signs of this same mindset are the older drivers, perhaps this is where driver coaching from the right person could prove to be fruitful?



#13 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 03 September 2012 - 14:28

After Singapore Alonso I think has no moral right to lecture anyone.

#14 JacnGille

JacnGille
  • Member

  • 1,600 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 03 September 2012 - 14:42

to avoid future "unresponsible driving", Balestre should have DQ-ed Senna for life. and Mosley should have DQ-ed Schumacher for life.

Life? No. A season, sounds good to me.

#15 yr

yr
  • Member

  • 5,969 posts
  • Joined: December 98

Posted 03 September 2012 - 14:45

To me, Alonso differs from the other top drivers in that he seems to make his racing decision based on logic and not temperament. He seems to race with the strategic view that his job is to make the best of what he has, e.g. if third is all that is possible then get third and don't end up fourth by trying to chase second. e.g If you have an idiot driver ahead or behind, take that into account and plan for their stupidity.

An example would be how Alonso handled his fading tires in Canada vs Hamilton in Valencia. Alonso gave room to the overtaking cars in the realisation that fighting would be counter productive, Lewis on the other hand shoved Maldonado off the track giving the ubercretin the oppotunity to DNF him. At the other end of the scale there are drivers who can be quite passive leading them to miss overtaking oppotunities. I don't think Alonso falls into this category either as he seems to be capable of agression when it's needed. I wonder if the year at McLaren (faster teammate) and the two at Renault (rubbish car) helped shape him into this mode of thought?

Anyway, I think if this midset was more common there would be a lot less incidents in races. I think it's no coindicence that the other drivers who show signs of this same mindset are the older drivers, perhaps this is where driver coaching from the right person could prove to be fruitful?


I´ll take it you switched off your tv after Alonso was out yesterday, otherwise you would have seen Kimi doing just what you claimed that only Alonso does: he didnt make stupid weawing when faster cars passed him with drs, he pulled excellent move on Michael, brought his car home in 3rd wich was absolutely maximum result. How is Alonso the only who can do this in your mind, when Kimi just did that yesterday?


#16 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 4,330 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 14:49

To me, Alonso differs from the other top drivers in that he seems to make his racing decision based on logic and not temperament. He seems to race with the strategic view that his job is to make the best of what he has, e.g. if third is all that is possible then get third and don't end up fourth by trying to chase second. e.g If you have an idiot driver ahead or behind, take that into account and plan for their stupidity.

An example would be how Alonso handled his fading tires in Canada vs Hamilton in Valencia. Alonso gave room to the overtaking cars in the realisation that fighting would be counter productive, Lewis on the other hand shoved Maldonado off the track giving the ubercretin the oppotunity to DNF him. At the other end of the scale there are drivers who can be quite passive leading them to miss overtaking oppotunities. I don't think Alonso falls into this category either as he seems to be capable of agression when it's needed. I wonder if the year at McLaren (faster teammate) and the two at Renault (rubbish car) helped shape him into this mode of thought?

Anyway, I think if this midset was more common there would be a lot less incidents in races. I think it's no coindicence that the other drivers who show signs of this same mindset are the older drivers, perhaps this is where driver coaching from the right person could prove to be fruitful?



THIS.

These years had been crucial to Alonso developpment. He is much more mature now

#17 Fontainebleau

Fontainebleau
  • RC Forum Host

  • 2,085 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 14:49

After Singapore Alonso I think has no moral right to lecture anyone.

Yes, because even though he was cleared of any involvement by both FIA and all the involved parties, you should be given the moral right to decide on that based on your likes and dislikes...

#18 superdelphinus

superdelphinus
  • Member

  • 1,365 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 03 September 2012 - 14:50

yeah that's something of an alonso legend brick these days. I'm sure 90% of the grid are able to work out risks and act accordingly. take valencia for example - alonso took some mighty risky overtakes in the opening laps of the race, any one of which could have ended up with him crashing out. I loved that he did them, and i'm a fan of his. I just don't buy this calculating professor image too much.

#19 pingu666

pingu666
  • Member

  • 8,756 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 03 September 2012 - 14:53

alonso has been involved or the benficiary of several dodgy things.

but he is called teflonso for a reason ;)


Advertisement

#20 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 03 September 2012 - 14:54

to avoid future "unresponsible driving", Balestre should have DQ-ed Senna for life. and Mosley should have DQ-ed Schumacher for life. it was not done, so the only way to get rid of "game over, start again?" mentality is to get some fataliies to cool others down. i know it's not a popular option...


Sorry, but that's irresponsible to say at least. You do not destroy someone life based on dubious judgment of stewards while those were under pressure to call it foul by popular and highly bias media.

Senna admitted to his intent, and it was dealt with it as it was customary in that era.

Singapore was explained by Junior, and he is paying price today, whilst I am still not sure what price Alonso paid.

I know it is not popular to say this, but one should not get confused hard-nose driving and blocking in eighties/nineties from deliberate ramming opponent. As far as I know, Schumacher has never made that admission, if he ever will, but that doesn't make him liar, or automatically places him on the same low road that Senna took.


_______________

(OK, I know where the door is...)


#21 HappySachs

HappySachs
  • Member

  • 125 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 14:54

I´ll take it you switched off your tv after Alonso was out yesterday, otherwise you would have seen Kimi doing just what you claimed that only Alonso does: he didnt make stupid weawing when faster cars passed him with drs, he pulled excellent move on Michael, brought his car home in 3rd wich was absolutely maximum result. How is Alonso the only who can do this in your mind, when Kimi just did that yesterday?


:) lol I didn't turn my TV off, and you are right about Kimi, I can think of many races this season where he showed the kind of thoughfulness I was talking about. In my closing paragraph I did say there are other drivers who show the same characteristics, however the opening post was talking about Alonso so that's why my post concentrates on him.

Edited by HappySachs, 03 September 2012 - 14:55.


#22 The Kanisteri

The Kanisteri
  • Member

  • 10,515 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 03 September 2012 - 14:57

Yes, because even though he was cleared of any involvement by both FIA and all the involved parties, you should be given the moral right to decide on that based on your likes and dislikes...


Back at Singapore 2008.

You just don't hit into F1 race with FUEL ONLY FOR 12 LAPS and planning INSANE EARLY PITSTOP if you don't happen to know something "extraordinary" is going to happen. If you don't know that you have only half of fuel which are estimated for NORMAL pitstop you have no right feel and trust on your car to drive it bit faster.

Lot of people in Renault knew about the plot, and it's a big fat LIE to say Fernando Alonso didn't know.

#23 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 4,330 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 14:58

It's off topic right ?

#24 The Kanisteri

The Kanisteri
  • Member

  • 10,515 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 03 September 2012 - 15:01

Massa: No, I want to questionate credibility of driver who calls for liability.



#25 yr

yr
  • Member

  • 5,969 posts
  • Joined: December 98

Posted 03 September 2012 - 15:08

:) lol I didn't turn my TV off, and you are right about Kimi, I can think of many races this season where he showed the kind of thoughfulness I was talking about. In my closing paragraph I did say there are other drivers who show the same characteristics, however the opening post was talking about Alonso so that's why my post concentrates on him.


Ok. :wave:

#26 F1ultimate

F1ultimate
  • Member

  • 2,865 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 15:09

Yes, because even though he was cleared of any involvement by both FIA and all the involved parties, you should be given the moral right to decide on that based on your likes and dislikes...


Alonso isn't a stupid guy. Despite being cleared of direct involvement there is not a shadow a doubt that he had spacial awareness of how the race was going to unfold in his favor.

#27 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 6,857 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 03 September 2012 - 15:11

Lot of people in Renault knew about the plot, and it's a big fat LIE to say Fernando Alonso didn't know.


:rotfl: , omg, some people go crazy with any positive comment toward Alonso, it's so funny.

Like it or not, Alonso it's one of the most fair racers on the grid, you can ask to anyone in the paddock, and 99% of them probably agree as many of them already did over the past years.


#28 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,715 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 16:12

After Singapore Alonso I think has no moral right to lecture anyone.


:up:

Crashgate, Spygate, Subjugate, BlackmailGate... driver responsibility starts with you, Alonso...

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: He gave just enough room to Vettel, tough but fair. He didn´t need to leave the track.


Sure he didn't, if two cars could share the same space at the same time. But in our reality, that isn't possible.

_________________________________

That said, in my opinion, drivers AND the FIA need to to all in their power to ensure the safety and wellbeing of the drivers. The FIA from the standpoint of car specs and car/driver regulations and rules; and drivers, from the standpoint of managing risk at acceptable levels.

Edited by bourbon, 03 September 2012 - 17:21.


#29 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 03 September 2012 - 16:54

If you are talking about driver liability, why all these hosannahs about Alonso and relate to top drivers? Crashes happen throughout the field. Liability applies to all drivers. I don't think anyone is doing 'do or die' moves that often anymore. A driver whose fans' feelings you did not want to hurt has stopped it quite some time back.

Edited by SpaMaster, 03 September 2012 - 16:56.


#30 wrcva

wrcva
  • Member

  • 1,014 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 17:35

After Singapore Alonso I think has no moral right to lecture anyone.

+1 Also, talking about individual driver liability --- Singapore was a collusive conspiracy to commit premeditated & reckless endangerment action (felony under most legal systems) in which Fred was not exonerated, but simply not investigated per Max. So, compared Gro's stupid mistake, Crashgate was a jailable offense... (except in the FIA kangaroo court, and, evidently, as far as how the Singapore public prosecution jurisdiction works). Alonso should not even talk about this kind of stuff... period.

#31 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 8,412 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 03 September 2012 - 17:39

Driver liability..... more commonly known as racing incidents.

#32 Fatgadget

Fatgadget
  • Member

  • 1,960 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 03 September 2012 - 17:45

He was probably on about Hungary in the pitllane 2007! :D

#33 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,351 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 03 September 2012 - 17:58

Are there still people complaining that Hamilton get's critizised too much on this board? They should be shown this thread.

A top driver just barely having escaped life-threatening injury makes perfectly sensible and valid statements about responsible behaviour on a race track, without blaming anyone, and look how the "discussion" developes. :drunk:

#34 tifosiMac

tifosiMac
  • Member

  • 6,706 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 18:01

I don't think we need to analyze every driver on the grid to see whether they are qualified to make an opinion on safety because what Alonso say's is perfectly true. It doesn't matter who say's it, its obvious drivers need to take control of their actions and consider the consequences.

#35 GT Racing Online Magazine

GT Racing Online Magazine
  • Member

  • 831 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 03 September 2012 - 18:11

When was the last time he caused a crash with another driver?



"Stewards' Decision Malaysian Grand Prix 2011: Fernando Alonso caused a collision with car 3 [Hamilton]. Drive through penalty (20 secs added to elapsed time). "

#36 Hanzo

Hanzo
  • Member

  • 714 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 03 September 2012 - 18:19

Alonso is the best driver out there, that's what the other drivers voted. :wave:

Edited by Hanzo, 03 September 2012 - 18:22.


#37 Fontainebleau

Fontainebleau
  • RC Forum Host

  • 2,085 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 18:22

Never mind - I don't think people here are interested in judging Alonso fairly, so go on and enjoy the bash.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 03 September 2012 - 18:25.


#38 rijole1

rijole1
  • Member

  • 633 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 03 September 2012 - 18:26

Fernando Alonso has yet again made a statement on drivers having to learn to be more conscious and 'sensible' on track, which you have probably read in this article:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/102215

The thing is, love him or hate him, he's one of the few drivers, and probably the only among the top lot who has right to make this comment - and if anything, a testament that it is possible to be aggressive and successful without having to cause crashes...


Well, I think there are some more top lot guys who have the right to make this comment.
Kimi, Webber and todays more mature Vettel and Hamilton, have right to make this comment. As much as Alonso.

#39 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,715 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 18:35

I don't think we need to analyze every driver on the grid to see whether they are qualified to make an opinion on safety because what Alonso say's is perfectly true. It doesn't matter who say's it, its obvious drivers need to take control of their actions and consider the consequences.


Yes what he said is true. It is just that he sounds lofty and flippant because he has not applied these same strictures to himself (or to his buddies like Briatore) in the past and we have no evidence that he will be taking his own very important advice in the future.

So yeah, he is going to be called out on this - even if what he says is important and correct. It is a case of shoot the messenger, but keep the message.

Edited by bourbon, 03 September 2012 - 18:37.


Advertisement

#40 Fatgadget

Fatgadget
  • Member

  • 1,960 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 03 September 2012 - 18:37

Are there still people complaining that Hamilton get's critizised too much on this board? They should be shown this thread.

A top driver just barely having escaped life-threatening injury makes perfectly sensible and valid statements about responsible behaviour on a race track, without blaming anyone, and look how the "discussion" developes. :drunk:

Maybe you should look in the mirror mate!....And how exactly did you want this discourse to eh.. develop?

#41 tifosiMac

tifosiMac
  • Member

  • 6,706 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 18:48

Yes what he said is true. It is just that he sounds lofty and flippant because he has not applied these same strictures to himself (or to his buddies like Briatore) in the past and we have no evidence that he will be taking his own very important advice in the future.

So yeah, he is going to be called out on this - even if what he says is important and correct. It is a case of shoot the messenger, but keep the message.

Well that's just petty IMO. Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton the top drivers have all committed dangerous manoeuvres in the past but they are also the drivers that most of the younger drivers may listen to. The message is correct, so I say lets applaud him for standing up for what is right. He could have been badly hurt yesterday and think he is qualified to give his opinions on it and what is acceptable in the future. :)

#42 RedOne

RedOne
  • Member

  • 1,617 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 03 September 2012 - 18:51

Yes what he said is true. It is just that he sounds lofty and flippant because he has not applied these same strictures to himself (or to his buddies like Briatore) in the past and we have no evidence that he will be taking his own very important advice in the future.

So yeah, he is going to be called out on this - even if what he says is important and correct. It is a case of shoot the messenger, but keep the message.


Keep digging

#43 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,351 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 03 September 2012 - 19:28

Maybe you should look in the mirror mate!....And how exactly did you want this discourse to eh.. develop?


I don't care. Just making an observation. Carry on! :wave:

#44 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 4,330 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 19:29

I don't think we need to analyze every driver on the grid to see whether they are qualified to make an opinion on safety because what Alonso say's is perfectly true. It doesn't matter who say's it, its obvious drivers need to take control of their actions and consider the consequences.



Best post of this thread.

#45 Tsarwash

Tsarwash
  • Member

  • 3,516 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 20:12

Singapore was dishonest and cheating, but it wasn't dangerous, was it ? The two things are not really comparable, are they ? And this assumes that Alonso knew about the plan, which is not really proven either way.

Alonso is not a dirty* or dangerous driver, and so I don't find his comments at all hypocritical, and I think they needed to be said to be honest. I don't recall Alonso causing any major prang in the last two years at all. Some drivers need to rein in their late lunging or running people clear off the road, in my opinion. Alonso is not the only one to have said this.

*Apart from Hungary 2007 of course. But again that was a very unique incident and not related in any way to the sort of thing that happened on Sunday.

#46 PorcupineTroy

PorcupineTroy
  • Member

  • 297 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 03 September 2012 - 20:45

What Alonso says is absolutely true, but for some drivers, becoming "sensible" is something that comes with experience. I remember one race, circa 2003 (Brazil perhaps?), where a driver in a blue and yellow car completely ignored yellow flags (which he had done earlier that very race) at the scene of an accident and had an enormous crash himself. I think that driver changed after that, and I'm told he actually ended up being an all right racer.

#47 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,715 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 21:03

Well that's just petty IMO.


And that's a fine opinion for you to hold. However, what you call petty, I call singling out hypocrisy at its worst - while recognizing the important and correct sentiments expressed by the individual being hypocrital.

Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton the top drivers have all committed dangerous manoeuvres in the past but they are also the drivers that most of the younger drivers may listen to.


It has absolutely nothing to do with committing dangerous maneuvers. It has everything to do with taking responsiblity for those dangerous maneuvers; admitting the wrong and condemning the behavior - that is at least on the face a signal that it won't be repeated in the future. That is exactly what Alonso is talking about - taking the responsibility as a driver. Alonso (like Maldonado) refuses to admit the wrong or even his involvement in most of the catastrophic wrongs I mentioned him being involved with (IMO).

If I am not to call him a hypocrite when he demands responsibility of others, then Alonso had better stop being one and take responsibility for his own wrongs as well as pointing them out in others (friends and foes alike).

The message is correct, so I say lets applaud him for standing up for what is right.


I applauded what he said. I will never applaud him until his behavior matches the wisdom he was speaking about. Because it is much bigger than a mere dangerous incident here and there, it is overall responsibility involving doing the right thing at all times so that the safety and the well being of the drivers is protected - including his.

He could have been badly hurt yesterday


That's what I'm talking about. The same could be said of Piquet or some other unlucky driver in 2008 Singapore if all had not gone well. That is why responsibilty is ALWAYS important. Not just when it happens to affect Alonso poorly and that is what he needs to recognize - ALOUD. Otherwise he can carry on, and so will my opinion of him - which you will admit I do not often express unless his moral character is publicly lauded. The hypocrisy is just too great.

and think he is qualified to give his opinions on it and what is acceptable in the future. :)


I agree - he has every right to say what he wishes. But when he takes the moral high ground, he is going to be reminded about those times when he himself did not live up to those standards in a blatant manner. Especially when he is on the very topic of high risk and crashes in F1. I mean come on man - he should have had a Ferrari spokes person deliver this most recent speech on his behalf if he didn't want to have the idea of driver responsibility thrown back in his face.

Singapore 2008 has been thrown in his face numerous times since then, so I fail to see that this comes as any kind of surprise to anyone. Certainly Alonso would not be surprised.

Edited by bourbon, 03 September 2012 - 21:12.


#48 Cavani

Cavani
  • Member

  • 905 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 03 September 2012 - 21:59

alonso has learned to be aggressive and successful at the same time , this things come with age and experience . i mean you cant tell maldonado and grosjean to take it easy and do that or that , by now maldonado knows that he didt score in 8 races , grosjean knows that he DNFed 4 races in the first lap . they are aware of that and dont want it to happen but they have to learn by their methods . everyone could be tamed down by his aspects and personality

#49 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,360 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 03 September 2012 - 22:15

Well, I think there are some more top lot guys who have the right to make this comment.
Kimi, Webber and todays more mature Vettel and Hamilton, have right to make this comment. As much as Alonso.


Sorry, but Webber is probably the guy I´d trust less to go side by side of the current top runners. He pushes people to the grass on straights, blocks the inside line way too late, doesn´t respond to rivals ahead moving across even if he has room, and often puts half a nose on the inside of rivals with half-goes that end badly.

Alonso is both fair and reliable wheel to wheel with a very limited number of exceptions here and there over the years. He CAN talk about this.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 03 September 2012 - 22:16.


#50 Bleu

Bleu
  • Member

  • 768 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 04 September 2012 - 07:21

Back at Singapore 2008.

You just don't hit into F1 race with FUEL ONLY FOR 12 LAPS and planning INSANE EARLY PITSTOP if you don't happen to know something "extraordinary" is going to happen. If you don't know that you have only half of fuel which are estimated for NORMAL pitstop you have no right feel and trust on your car to drive it bit faster.

Lot of people in Renault knew about the plot, and it's a big fat LIE to say Fernando Alonso didn't know.


"We know it's a risky tactic. But safety car is likely here in Singapore and if it comes out at the good moment from our point of view, you may even win the race. With normal strategy, taking lots of fuel, we will likely get some points but not to be on the podium."

Alonso may have been told something like this. No hinting about Piquet involvement in getting that SC.