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Ferrari F2012 - Part III


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#1501 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:40

I even posted about it some days ago, but ignoring their own could hurt our development. On top of that I don't know how often they can use that.


Or it could help ...

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 29 September 2012 - 10:40.


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#1502 1337bremner

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:41

Andrew benson just tweeted that a good source has said Nico Hulkenberg has done a deal with Ferrari. But he also tweeted that Massa is likely to stay but Hulkenberg is a key option. Dont know which one to believe haha

#1503 e34

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 11:02

Or it could help ...


Yep, somebody could do them a favor and ram the damned thing down. Actually, they should bite the bullet and do it themselves. Build a new one from scratch or make Sauber an offer they can't refuse and buy or copy theirs.

It has to be frustrating to see your efforts go down the drain time and again due to the wind tunnel.



#1504 quasi C

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 11:08

LDM has said that the problem is that some of the data matches the track and some of it doesn't, they still don't understand why (not).
This is obviously not good news for the 2013 car either.

Edited by quasi C, 29 September 2012 - 11:08.


#1505 fabr68

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:20

Andrew benson just tweeted that a good source has said Nico Hulkenberg has done a deal with Ferrari. But he also tweeted that Massa is likely to stay but Hulkenberg is a key option. Dont know which one to believe haha


Ferrari is likely to wait until the end of the year to make a decision. This will keep Massa on his toes and also it would big the big picture to understand how Massa did given the car he has and how a newcomer could do in same conditions.

#1506 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:22

Ferrari is likely to wait until the end of the year to make a decision. This will keep Massa on his toes and also it would big the big picture to understand how Massa did given the car he has and how a newcomer could do in same conditions.


I can't see Hulkenberg doing any better than Massa tbh...


#1507 Slowinfastout

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:25

I can't see Hulkenberg doing any better than Massa tbh...


I can.

The thing I find weird though would be to let Perez go and take Hulkenberg instead, to me that doesn't make much sense.

#1508 1337bremner

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:40

I can.

The thing I find weird though would be to let Perez go and take Hulkenberg instead, to me that doesn't make much sense.


Yeah it would be very strange if they did. Maybe Ferrari just dont rate him that highly. I remeber an article a whille back where someone from Ferrari was saying he was still to aggressive. I imagine they would have a good knowledge of how cabale he is from some of the acedemy tests he did aswell. These things might have swayed their decision possibly

#1509 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:49

I can.

The thing I find weird though would be to let Perez go and take Hulkenberg instead, to me that doesn't make much sense.

For sure Ferrari guys know a lot more than us, including what their proteges are doing, contracts, stuff .. you know what I mean.

In that regard, preliminary contracts are not something unusual. This is like a gentleman shaking hands - an agreement for talks ("In principal, I like you guys").
They don't mean anything, however - lots of them had been forgotten. So, Masas, Hulk, whoever that might be - Ferrari has bigger issues - being behind in development race.

#1510 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:01

Ferrari will be building a new wind tunnel. It's to be ready by 2015.

http://www.blogf1.it...eria-del-vento/

#1511 Ravenak

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:16

Damn.

#1512 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:22

I can.

The thing I find weird though would be to let Perez go and take Hulkenberg instead, to me that doesn't make much sense.


That can just mean one single thing for me: Sebastian Vettel has been already signed for 2014 and next year will be an interim year.

#1513 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:24

That can just mean one single thing for me: Sebastian Vettel has been already signed for 2014 and next year will be an interim year.


Then it's pointless dumping Massa....Don't get me wrong, I think Massa has been atrocious this year, but what's Hulkenberg done this year? Nout.

#1514 Ravenak

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:27

but what's Hulkenberg done this year?


Scored 60% of Massa's point tally with the 7th fastest car.

Edited by Ravenak, 29 September 2012 - 13:27.


#1515 Seanspeed

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:46

Edit: Felipe says the downforce levels at Suzuka are basically the same as Silverstone and we know Silverstone isn't a max DF track. That settles that :up:

<throws hands up in the air>

Alright alright! Fair enough. :lol: :)

I can.

The thing I find weird though would be to let Perez go and take Hulkenberg instead, to me that doesn't make much sense.

Hulkenberg has a buttload of potential. He's been champion of everything he's done so far in cars and he's getting better in F1. I think with a chance in a top team, he might actually be a better choice than Perez overall. I think this would be a good move for Ferrari.

#1516 toxicfusion

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:02

Ferrari will be building a new wind tunnel. It's to be ready by 2015.

http://www.blogf1.it...eria-del-vento/


So the 2015 car will be built using what they've got, the upgrades will be in the new tunnel.

Meaning the first car the tunnel will be for is the 2016 model. Damn.

Edited by toxicfusion, 29 September 2012 - 14:03.


#1517 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:06

So the 2015 car will be built using what they've got, the upgrades will be in the new tunnel.

Meaning the first car the tunnel will be for is the 2016 model. Damn.


I am now confused. Where do we actually stand? So Ferrari have one own wind tunnel in Maranello and one in Cologne. They shut down their own a couple of days ago, because that provided false datas and now they must use the Toyota's one in Cologne. Am I right?

Off: yesterday I had the opportunity to visit a wind tunnel of an university used by the students, but also for car-makers. That was pretty amazing.

#1518 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:11

So the 2015 car will be built using what they've got, the upgrades will be in the new tunnel.

Meaning the first car the tunnel will be for is the 2016 model. Damn.


Well it could always be ready ahead of schedule but who knows. As of now with the current projected time frame, the 2015 car won't be built via the new tunnel but will be able to be developed in said tunnel from late winter throughout the rest of the season.

@FerrariAlonso Ferrari has it's own wind tunnel in Maranello thats absolute shite! The team is also using the Toyota WT in Cologne. The team has used both for most of this season. They will cease using the tunnel in Maranello and use the Toyota tunnel for the rest of this year & next.

@ Sean :lol: I still knew what you meant mate. :up:

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 29 September 2012 - 14:11.


#1519 quasi C

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:15

I thought they were just shutting their own one down a month in dec/jan, just for refurb? I don't think they can use the Cologne one full time because other teams rent it out too.

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#1520 Ravenak

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:21

I don't think they can use the Cologne one full time because other teams rent it out too.


Just add a zero to the check and they get it 100% :)

#1521 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:22

Well it could always be ready ahead of schedule but who knows. As of now with the current projected time frame, the 2015 car won't be built via the new tunnel but will be able to be developed in said tunnel from late winter throughout the rest of the season.

@FerrariAlonso Ferrari has it's own wind tunnel in Maranello thats absolute shite! The team is also using the Toyota WT in Cologne. The team has used both for most of this season. They will cease using the tunnel in Maranello and use the Toyota tunnel for the rest of this year & next.

@ Sean :lol: I still knew what you meant mate. :up:


Thanks! That's why I also thought. Although, that's a massive turnaround in our chances. Other racing teams use it if I'm not mistaken, so Ferrari can use it just some days a week. I am very irritated by it. Is that any chance that Ferrari's own tunnel can opened any time soon?

#1522 SCUDmissile

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:26

Is that source reliable?
I thought they were just going shut it?

Well, whatever they think is best, but where will they go now? I hope Toyota are cool about it.

#1523 Showty

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:46

I like Hulkenberg, i certainly can see him doing better that Massa, but i don´t see him signing for one year in case Vettel is signed for 2014, and i certainly don´t see Ferrari betting on Hulkenberg when they can have Vettel or could have Pérez.

#1524 Rajdeep

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:59

I can.

The thing I find weird though would be to let Perez go and take Hulkenberg instead, to me that doesn't make much sense.


I don't think it means anything about the respective potential of Perez vs Hulkenburg. The biggest difference between the two is that Perez has a long future in F1, given his already demonstrated talent plus the Telemax backing. For Hulkenburg, he has had a much tougher journey, without any sponsorship. In fact, he's on a 1 year contract with FI now. So, he could be much more willing to do a 1 year deal with Ferrari. I'd think that Perez or even di Resta would like more than a 1 year deal, since both have a much more secure future due to their sponsorships.

From the Hulk's point of view, it's much better to be No 2 in Ferrari than No 1 in FI. The former gives him chance to fight for podiums, while the later is just scrapping for points. Even if he ends up 20-0 against Alonso next season, as long as he stays close to Alonso and gets 3-4 podiums - his future becomes lot more secure. Remember that his performances will be judged with the understanding that he's No 2, and relative to Massa in 2012.

Sutil was No 1 in FI for a number of years and look where he's now. So a 1 year deal as the No 2 in Ferrari is a no brainer for the Hulk.

For Ferrari, I guess their preferences would be

1st: Button, Webber or Rosberg - none are available
2nd: Perez, Hulk or di Resta - Perez wants multi-year deal, probably same for di Resta as well...
3rd: Keep Massa...

#1525 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 16:21

Is that source reliable?
I thought they were just going shut it?

Well, whatever they think is best, but where will they go now? I hope Toyota are cool about it.


BlogF1.it is reliable. They also have a former Ferrari Engineer(Luigi Mazzola) that writes blog posts for them. But this was supposedly said at the Paris Auto Show for everyone to hear. It jives with the MARCA story as well.

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 29 September 2012 - 16:21.


#1526 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 16:47

BlogF1.it is reliable. They also have a former Ferrari Engineer(Luigi Mazzola) that writes blog posts for them. But this was supposedly said at the Paris Auto Show for everyone to hear. It jives with the MARCA story as well.


Do you think will it be enough to do just some days of work in the wind tunnel supposing it is not always available cos other teams make claim on it as well?

#1527 AlexS

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:32

If they can't there are other wind tunnels around. The important if they know what is the mistake this one has to not repeat it. Of course they could just copy one of existing that doesn't have correlation problems.

#1528 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 18:23

Do you think will it be enough to do just some days of work in the wind tunnel supposing it is not always available cos other teams make claim on it as well?


It's definitely enough. Ferrari has been using the Toyota tunnel in conjunction with the teams Maranello tunnel all year long. That was why Agathangelou was hired to oversee both tunnels & to try and make sure correlation was good. But the team shouldn't lose much if any at all only having one tunnel. Just more complicated to get parts to but definitely doable. As much as people hate to hear it, the team is completely changing the way they do aerodynamics, especially the methodologies. I think Fry and company have shown us this year that they've improved from an aero standpoint in comparison to 2011. I think this is a gradual process but I think it's bearing fruit. Most of the F2012's updates have worked as expected. Correlation is never 100% and coming from a team that's struggled in this area, the 70-80% correct correlation that's been present this year is definitely a step in the right direction.
Ferrari will use as many tunnels as they need to continue to develop the F2012 and will do the same for next seasons car.
I think Fry is the right guy for the job and think he's taking the team to the next level and to a level where in a year or two we won't be speaking about these type of issues so frequently if at all. Keep in mind even RBR, the masters of Aerodynamics, had serious correlation problems this year as well. It happens.

#1529 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 19:31

Ferrari will be building a new wind tunnel. It's to be ready by 2015.

http://www.blogf1.it...eria-del-vento/


Sad. The old design team really should have realized this at least 3 wasted years ago, it would be running by now. Another plus for Pat Fry, it seems to me. Better late than never.

#1530 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 20:24

It's definitely enough. Ferrari has been using the Toyota tunnel in conjunction with the teams Maranello tunnel all year long. That was why Agathangelou was hired to oversee both tunnels & to try and make sure correlation was good. But the team shouldn't lose much if any at all only having one tunnel. Just more complicated to get parts to but definitely doable. As much as people hate to hear it, the team is completely changing the way they do aerodynamics, especially the methodologies. I think Fry and company have shown us this year that they've improved from an aero standpoint in comparison to 2011. I think this is a gradual process but I think it's bearing fruit. Most of the F2012's updates have worked as expected. Correlation is never 100% and coming from a team that's struggled in this area, the 70-80% correct correlation that's been present this year is definitely a step in the right direction.
Ferrari will use as many tunnels as they need to continue to develop the F2012 and will do the same for next seasons car.
I think Fry is the right guy for the job and think he's taking the team to the next level and to a level where in a year or two we won't be speaking about these type of issues so frequently if at all. Keep in mind even RBR, the masters of Aerodynamics, had serious correlation problems this year as well. It happens.


Thank you for your detailed answer.
I think Ferrari's correlation problems are massively connected to the exhaust gases. That is very hard to be tested and simulated in the tunnel, however it has a huge impact on the flows around the car obviously. I suppose exhaust pipes will be ruled even more strictly next year, that should give a boost our correlation. The rule book has been published some days ago, I haven't had time yet to check it. Does anyone know the new rules regarding the exhaust?

#1531 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 21:19

Thank you for your detailed answer.
I think Ferrari's correlation problems are massively connected to the exhaust gases. That is very hard to be tested and simulated in the tunnel, however it has a huge impact on the flows around the car obviously. I suppose exhaust pipes will be ruled even more strictly next year, that should give a boost our correlation. The rule book has been published some days ago, I haven't had time yet to check it. Does anyone know the new rules regarding the exhaust?


There is no change in 2013 regarding the exhaust. As far as Ferrari's WT problems I don't think it's about exhaust gasses. I think it's something completely different. When having issues with the FW like they have, it points to something else, IMHO. Time will tell.

#1532 AyrtonSauna

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 05:51

There is no change in 2013 regarding the exhaust. As far as Ferrari's WT problems I don't think it's about exhaust gasses. I think it's something completely different. When having issues with the FW like they have, it points to something else, IMHO. Time will tell.


So if Ferrari have been using both the Toyota and Maranello WTs,which one is worse? The fact is that no wind tunnel can be 100% accurate in track correlation.It's just the nature of wind tunnel simulation and has always been that way that track testing is vastly superior for analising success or failure.Nothing beats the real deal of rubber on tarmac testing yet we are beating the aero genious of Newey and Red Bull more often than not this year with one hand tied behind our backs because of FIA track testing restrictions.

Good that Ferrari are building a new WT but they must improve the engineering and innovation of what goes into the WT in the 1st place!


#1533 RedOne

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 12:59

So it's now on the front page. Ferrari have shut down the windtunnel to run tests on it and will be using some unspecified windtunnel to carry out work. No mention of building a new tunnel.

Edited by RedOne, 01 October 2012 - 13:00.


#1534 ATM_Andy

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 13:10

So it's now on the front page. Ferrari have shut down the windtunnel to run tests on it and will be using some unspecified windtunnel to carry out work. No mention of building a new tunnel.


Must be the season for it McLaren building a new one under the new building.

#1535 maverick69

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 13:14

Must be the season for it McLaren building a new one under the new building.


No doubt to compliment the "track" under the MTC ;)

#1536 RedOne

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 13:34

Must be the season for it McLaren building a new one under the new building.

If it goes well any tips would be welcome  ;)

#1537 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 15:56

So it's now on the front page. Ferrari have shut down the windtunnel to run tests on it and will be using some unspecified windtunnel to carry out work. No mention of building a new tunnel.


No, the article says they will shut it down some time in Dec or Jan, as per Dom's decision.

Edit:

Ferrari's team boss Stefano Domenicali has made the decision to shut it down during the winter until the problems are fixed.

LdM:

"Domenicali has reached a conclusion: to shut down our wind tunnel for a while and do our tests elsewhere, in order to verify and re-calibrate everything. It will take time.
"I don't know whether this will happen in December or January, it's up to him: I have absolute faith in Domenicali."


Edited by KnucklesAgain, 01 October 2012 - 16:00.


#1538 ferrarijon123

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 17:19

Well Fernando will probably out-qualify Button at Suzuka then. It also helps because Button can't help Hamilton by holding up Alonso and may also enable Felipe to get ahead of him.
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103002

Edited by ferrarijon123, 01 October 2012 - 17:19.


#1539 Watkins74

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:37

So it's now on the front page. Ferrari have shut down the windtunnel to run tests on it and will be using some unspecified windtunnel to carry out work. No mention of building a new tunnel.

How long have we heard about these wind tunnel problems. At this point I am ready for them to tear the damn thing down and burn all the software.

I would recommend not using this wind tunnel until the problem is identified and solved. Why use it until the winter if the thing is not reliable?

Edited by Watkins74, 02 October 2012 - 07:40.


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#1540 as65p

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 08:20

How long have we heard about these wind tunnel problems. At this point I am ready for them to tear the damn thing down and burn all the software.

I would recommend not using this wind tunnel until the problem is identified and solved. Why use it until the winter if the thing is not reliable?


That's precisely what the article says they intend to do, isn't it?

#1541 as65p

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 08:21

No, the article says they will shut it down some time in Dec or Jan, as per Dom's decision.


I read that as the thing being shut down now and then investigated in December or January?

#1542 aditya-now

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 08:53

I read that as the thing being shut down now and then investigated in December or January?


No, apparently shut down in January or December, go to another wind tunnel in that period and compare the results of the two wind tunnels.

It's ironic of course, why not shut the thing down now when it sometimes gives false results (as Luca said, the worst thing is when it sometimes gives correct, sometimes erratic results), but if they would go now to a totally new wind tunnel the risk would be even greater.

Edited by aditya-now, 02 October 2012 - 08:55.


#1543 RedOne

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:05

How long have we heard about these wind tunnel problems. At this point I am ready for them to tear the damn thing down and burn all the software.

I would recommend not using this wind tunnel until the problem is identified and solved. Why use it until the winter if the thing is not reliable?


Well they believed they had fixed it but clearly that isn't the case. I think they are already building another one. They will use Cologne to finish the work on F2012 I would imagine.

#1544 ATM_Andy

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:46

Well they believed they had fixed it but clearly that isn't the case. I think they are already building another one. They will use Cologne to finish the work on F2012 I would imagine.


The TMG tunnel is really good.

#1545 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:50

I read that as the thing being shut down now and then investigated in December or January?


I don't know why one would read it like that. Have I missed something?

Autosport writer: "Ferrari's team boss Stefano Domenicali has made the decision to shut it down during the winter until the problems are fixed."
Quoted LdM: "Domenicali has reached a conclusion: to shut down our wind tunnel for a while and do our tests elsewhere, in order to verify and re-calibrate everything. It will take time. I don't know whether this will happen in December or January, it's up to him: I have absolute faith in Domenicali."

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 02 October 2012 - 10:38.


#1546 dreamerBiH

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:14

Sutil was No 1 in FI for a number of years and look where he's now. So a 1 year deal as the No 2 in Ferrari is a no brainer for the Hulk.


Sutil wouldn't have any problems finding a a cockpit in F1 if he hadn't assaulted that guy. No team wants a driver who can't even enter some countries because of being found guilty for sth.

Edited by dreamerBiH, 02 October 2012 - 12:14.


#1547 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 14:43

Sutil wouldn't have any problems finding a a cockpit in F1 if he hadn't assaulted that guy. No team wants a driver who can't even enter some countries because of being found guilty for sth.


Except that's a myth


#1548 RedOne

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 16:45

The TMG tunnel is really good.

It's nice to know we can rely on very good tunnel from time to time. I'm sure it's been an important reference point for others too.

#1549 northanmonkee

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 16:57

Except that's a myth

Both USA and Japan will not issue a visa if you are convicted of violence
Not sure about Singapore and Malaya but I think there same

#1550 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:05

Both USA and Japan will not issue a visa if you are convicted of violence
Not sure about Singapore and Malaya but I think there same


OT, but "will not" is simply not true. They "may".

US Embassy in Canada:

If you have any criminal record, no matter how minor or how long ago the offense, you may be refused a visa or entry to the United States. (...)
Not all criminal convictions create an ineligibility to enter the U.S., but any past criminal record must be declared.

http://canada.usemba...ligibility.html

Japanese Embassy in US:

Q9. Is the issuance of a visa guaranteed once applied?
A. Overseas Japanese diplomatic establishments may not issue a visa to an applicant who comes under the following categories or is suspected of coming under these categories:
- If the applicant does not possess a genuine and valid passport.
- If the contents of the application are false.
- If the applicant has a criminal record including more than one year's imprisonment.
- If the applicant has a criminal record involving narcotics, marijuana, stimulants, prostitution, etc. (...)

http://www.us.emb-ja...isa/faq_new.htm

There are dedicated visa service companies like CIBT for stuff like this. There must be hundreds of thousands of foreign professionals working in the US and Japan at any time, you think they are all clean like a baby?