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Ferrari F2012 - Part III


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#2001 CF22

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 16:44

Domenicali and Alonso are the reasons Ferrari are in this championship. :wave:
Back up ridiculous statements like this with proper fact.

If you blame anyone, blame the aero department.


Alonso yes, Domenicali no. Who has the last word regarding all decisions within the team, Fry? Tombazis? We've been through enough personnel in the past few years and the same problems persist, the common denominator is Domenicali.

Alonso's DNF is of course not Domenicali's fault but all this could've been avoided if he had a car capable of qualifying in the first row all the time, but specially at decisive races as this. Red Bull got on with the program and look where Vettel is at today, us we bring a wing that doesn't work for consecutive races.

Edited by CF22, 07 October 2012 - 16:52.


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#2002 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 16:55

Pat Fry says that the yellow flag in qualifying cost Alonso 1.5 seconds.



http://www.autosport......com F1 news)

I think he is being very optimistic because 1.5 secs would have put Alonso on pole...


No, that must be a clerical error. Fernando lost around 0,6 sec based on his sector times and th time delta.

Edited by FerrariAlonso, 07 October 2012 - 16:57.


#2003 SCUDmissile

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 16:59

Alonso yes, Domenicali no. Who has the last word regarding all decisions within the team, Fry? Tombazis? We've been through enough personnel in the past few years and the same problems persist, the common denominator is Domenicali.

Alonso's DNF is of course not Domenicali's fault but all this could've been avoided if he had a car capable of qualifying in the first row all the time, but specially at decisive races as this. Red Bull got on with the program and look where Vettel is at today, us we bring a wing that doesn't work for consecutive races.

I agree with you, it is because the car is not good enough. Why? They say the wind tunnel. That is why they are shutting it. I know it is frustrating, but the things Dom is responsible for (pitstops, strategy etc.) have not been an issue this year. The problem is the CAR.

#2004 Jon83

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:06

Yes lets face it Ferraris car is in class of Sauber and Williams... Only because of FA's masteries we had our hopes up...now its all lost i am afraid..F1 IS a cruel sport.


Nothing has been lost.



#2005 Motorbreath

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:11

Nothing has been lost.


We lost the opportunity to be slower than RBR for another race... Its a 5 race championship now like Alonso said and with a car like this I am afraid its not possible to win...

#2006 Jon83

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:19

We lost the opportunity to be slower than RBR for another race... Its a 5 race championship now like Alonso said and with a car like this I am afraid its not possible to win...


He also said that next time, it could be Vettel who has the bad luck which he had today.

Today was a massive blow, just like Spa. However, the bright side is that we still lead.

On a side note, I have become fed-up hearing Johnny Herbert on Sky going on about all this luck Alonso has seemingly had.

#2007 MaxisOne

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:19

Domenicali has to go, nice guys finish last couldn't be more true. When is Flavio allowed back into the sport, 2013?



Jesus Christ here we go again... :rolleyes:

I really dont know what you want from this guy. Ok the car is not performing as it should for the last couple of years. Domenicalli got a new TD (Fry) who basically ordered a complete review of the way they used to develop the car when he became TD. Under this new regime Ferrari turned a big red turd at the start of the season into a respectable car and you guys have one of the most complete drivers in the sport which the team supports 110% who has managed to drag that car from undriveable to wins and podiums.

All at the same time Pat Fry is working diligently with the broken tools hes got at Maranello and Domenicalli is supporting him in finding and fixing all the problems that hinder chassis development. Windtunnels don't get fixed in a week people.. The old days where you can have a test team bring 6 different wings and run laps at Mugello until the update works are over.. Your tools at the factory have to work the first time and Domenicalli and Fry are making sure that happens going forward. Which is also why your crazy company president is also supporting him 110%.

So if you lose the Championship you really cant call for Domenicalli's head.. in my opinion hes doing a much better job than the team i'm presently supporting so i really dont know what your complaining about.

Edited by MaxisOne, 07 October 2012 - 17:25.


#2008 Motorbreath

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:42

He also said that next time, it could be Vettel who has the bad luck which he had today.

Today was a massive blow, just like Spa. However, the bright side is that we still lead.

On a side note, I have become fed-up hearing Johnny Herbert on Sky going on about all this luck Alonso has seemingly had.


Yes I agree Sky is really annoying...

#2009 Tuxy

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:47

*shakes-head*

It's over.

Feel bad for Alonso. Ferrari have really squandered so much opportunity to improve the car.

I will take a wait and see approach but I'm not going to sacrifice any more sunday mornings to watch Ferrari fumble again.

#2010 jeze

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:04

I absolutely do not understand why Fernando didn't drive the thing back to the pitlane. The safety car came out anyway, they could've taken a look at it, he could have unlapped himself if it was fixable. Why in the world didn't he try to bring it back??? It was just a puncture after all, not a loose wheel.

#2011 Smile17

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:07

Nothing lost. It was clear from the beginning that this championship will go down to the wire. It will probably be decided in Brazil. I can even see Hamilton coming back. Ferrari needed improvements anyway, maybe now they will speed things up a bit..

Edited by Smile17, 07 October 2012 - 18:09.


#2012 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:14

I absolutely do not understand why Fernando didn't drive the thing back to the pitlane. The safety car came out anyway, they could've taken a look at it, he could have unlapped himself if it was fixable. Why in the world didn't he try to bring it back??? It was just a puncture after all, not a loose wheel.


Engine stalled.

#2013 Massa

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:33

Doom and gloom again... It's become boring.. Before bash the team like that, perhaps it's better to thanks the Scuderia for one of the best recovery of the history no ?

I mean, at the start of the season, 6 or even 7 teams were faster than Ferrari... And they leading the championship since a while, they have a shot for the second place for the WCC aswell... But doom and gloom again.
Fernando Alonso is a great driver, he is the best these days, but he is not a god. He can't outperform the car. It's perhaps the only driver who extract 100% of his car right. If he leading the championship right now, it's because his team give him a fast, all arounder, and reliable car. It's because his team, most of the time, made the right strategy call. It's because the Scuderia Ferrari is the best team this year.

The F2012 were 9 times on podium, ALL on pure merit. Only Mclaren have been better, but like Lotus or RBR, and even Mercedes, they start with a much better car. It's not enough for you ?

Since Ferrari large updates at Barcelona, the car was too slow at Hungary and Singapore. TWO RACES. The car was fast at Barcelona, Monaco, Canada, Valencia, Germany, Spa, Monza, Suzuka.

Only RBR and Mclaren as fast or faster in races, when you take an account the F2012 before Barcelona, it's a huge achievement.

But no, it's better to say " Domenicali, Fry, Tombazis should be fired " or say " Ferrari need Briatore " Oh dear. Really some guys here are desperates, they are only there when the team win, but when it's a little bit harder they are crying and say some BS. I know Ferrari is born to win, no matter the competition, but they can't win all the time. Mclaren, Red Bull, Lotus are all very strong opponents, they have to be respected. It's no longer F1 era of 2001-2004 where Ferrari was at the top, and then one year it was Mclaren, the others Williams, and then BAR, or 2006 where only Renault was fast, or 2007-2008 where only Mclaren was as fast Ferrari.

These days, they are Mclaren, RBR, at the same level, and then just behind Lotus and Sauber at times, or Williams or even Force India. In fact, they are only two teams who are stable, but at the same places, it's Toro Rosso at the back and Mercedes in the middle of the field.

It's not like if Ferrari start the year with the strongest car, but failed to capitalize on this like Mclaren. Ferrari start the year much behind everybody, then they caught all of them, and know at some races they are faster than Red Bull, or Mclaren at the others.

Before crying like that we have to remember where the team was before Barcelona.

#2014 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:57

Doom and gloom again... It's become boring.. Before bash the team like that, perhaps it's better to thanks the Scuderia for one of the best recovery of the history no ?
(long post trimmed)


Right on!
Plus, I want to have a good time with this hobby of mine, to cheer on the team and drivers, and to go through hope and yes, despair at time. What good is it to watch thinking "it's over" from race 1?

#2015 Frank

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 19:04

So is it true redbull have a DDRS now as well? How do manage that and keep brining great updates, while we struggle for 3 months just to get a front wing working? Its like we are amateurs working in a garden shed.

Just read in formula1.com and now long straights in Korea not going to be their weakness anymore.

#2016 SunnyENTP

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 19:13

Yes lets face it Ferraris car is in class of Sauber and Williams... Only because of FA's masteries we had our hopes up...now its all lost i am afraid..F1 IS a cruel sport.



This is complete nonsense. :lol: It seems Alonso fans would go at any lengths to diminish how good Ferrari is just to make him look good. Massa proved the car was good, he was faster than McLaren easily! And Massa wont even be ranked as a top 15 driver right now.

#2017 canaus

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 19:16

Doom and gloom again... It's become boring.. Before bash the team like that, perhaps it's better to thanks the Scuderia for one of the best recovery of the history no ?

I mean, at the start of the season, 6 or even 7 teams were faster than Ferrari... And they leading the championship since a while, they have a shot for the second place for the WCC aswell... But doom and gloom again.
Fernando Alonso is a great driver, he is the best these days, but he is not a god. He can't outperform the car. It's perhaps the only driver who extract 100% of his car right. If he leading the championship right now, it's because his team give him a fast, all arounder, and reliable car. It's because his team, most of the time, made the right strategy call. It's because the Scuderia Ferrari is the best team this year.

The F2012 were 9 times on podium, ALL on pure merit. Only Mclaren have been better, but like Lotus or RBR, and even Mercedes, they start with a much better car. It's not enough for you ?

Since Ferrari large updates at Barcelona, the car was too slow at Hungary and Singapore. TWO RACES. The car was fast at Barcelona, Monaco, Canada, Valencia, Germany, Spa, Monza, Suzuka.

Only RBR and Mclaren as fast or faster in races, when you take an account the F2012 before Barcelona, it's a huge achievement.

But no, it's better to say " Domenicali, Fry, Tombazis should be fired " or say " Ferrari need Briatore " Oh dear. Really some guys here are desperates, they are only there when the team win, but when it's a little bit harder they are crying and say some BS. I know Ferrari is born to win, no matter the competition, but they can't win all the time. Mclaren, Red Bull, Lotus are all very strong opponents, they have to be respected. It's no longer F1 era of 2001-2004 where Ferrari was at the top, and then one year it was Mclaren, the others Williams, and then BAR, or 2006 where only Renault was fast, or 2007-2008 where only Mclaren was as fast Ferrari.

These days, they are Mclaren, RBR, at the same level, and then just behind Lotus and Sauber at times, or Williams or even Force India. In fact, they are only two teams who are stable, but at the same places, it's Toro Rosso at the back and Mercedes in the middle of the field.

It's not like if Ferrari start the year with the strongest car, but failed to capitalize on this like Mclaren. Ferrari start the year much behind everybody, then they caught all of them, and know at some races they are faster than Red Bull, or Mclaren at the others.

Before crying like that we have to remember where the team was before Barcelona.


When Alonso fans bring Briatore into discussion is driving me crazy.
Althought I agree with the most of what you said, the problem still remains. We are starting this mini championship as a second favorite. And with the wind tunnel problems, is going to be a mountain to climb and it will affect next year as well. That's why I'm so pissed off. I belive in Ferrari engineers, but they don't have the tools to do it. You have to rely on the wind tunnel, you can't develop only on track this days.

#2018 Craven Morehead

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 20:36

It's a five race championship now. Hopefully Ferrari manage to provide a few useful updates asap,

#2019 Smile17

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 21:18

What about Vettel? He should be the one in the lead. Those two alternator failures robbed him atleast 35 points. Those points would have put him 38 points past Alonso. Lewis would have been in front of Vettel only if he had won all of the three races he retired. As we know he wasn't even in contention to win the Belgian GP.


Redbull started on the back foot. McLaren could have had a big lead by that time. It's not until recently that Redbull have sorted their things out and became what looks like the fastest team.

And yes when it comes to the WDC. Alonso is still a favourite just because he is Fernando Alonso. Same as Ferrari, they should be able to turn this around. Who laughs last, laughs best said Mr Domenicalli so let's see. But nobody will deny that Vettel is in pole-position now.

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#2020 jeze

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 22:08

Just read in formula1.com and now long straights in Korea not going to be their weakness anymore.

Well in the race... it kinda is because they can't use it when in front so if Fernando manages to be around Vettel he can just tow in behind, save his tyres and beat him in the stops and then stay out of the DRS zone.

BUT THEN WE NEED SOME FRIGGIN UPGRADES FFS!!!



#2021 tmprikol

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 23:47

Alonso: 2 DNFs, both on the frist lap, both by Lotus.

#2022 kissTheApex

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 23:58

While it was difficult to watch especially with Massa having the race of the season for him, but all is not lost yet. I still believe Fernando can win this championship.

#2023 medeni73

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:33

Doom and gloom again... It's become boring.. Before bash the team like that, perhaps it's better to thanks the Scuderia for one of the best recovery of the history no ?

I mean, at the start of the season, 6 or even 7 teams were faster than Ferrari... And they leading the championship since a while, they have a shot for the second place for the WCC aswell... But doom and gloom again.
Fernando Alonso is a great driver, he is the best these days, but he is not a god. He can't outperform the car. It's perhaps the only driver who extract 100% of his car right. If he leading the championship right now, it's because his team give him a fast, all arounder, and reliable car. It's because his team, most of the time, made the right strategy call. It's because the Scuderia Ferrari is the best team this year.

The F2012 were 9 times on podium, ALL on pure merit. Only Mclaren have been better, but like Lotus or RBR, and even Mercedes, they start with a much better car. It's not enough for you ?

Since Ferrari large updates at Barcelona, the car was too slow at Hungary and Singapore. TWO RACES. The car was fast at Barcelona, Monaco, Canada, Valencia, Germany, Spa, Monza, Suzuka.

Only RBR and Mclaren as fast or faster in races, when you take an account the F2012 before Barcelona, it's a huge achievement.

But no, it's better to say " Domenicali, Fry, Tombazis should be fired " or say " Ferrari need Briatore " Oh dear. Really some guys here are desperates, they are only there when the team win, but when it's a little bit harder they are crying and say some BS. I know Ferrari is born to win, no matter the competition, but they can't win all the time. Mclaren, Red Bull, Lotus are all very strong opponents, they have to be respected. It's no longer F1 era of 2001-2004 where Ferrari was at the top, and then one year it was Mclaren, the others Williams, and then BAR, or 2006 where only Renault was fast, or 2007-2008 where only Mclaren was as fast Ferrari.

These days, they are Mclaren, RBR, at the same level, and then just behind Lotus and Sauber at times, or Williams or even Force India. In fact, they are only two teams who are stable, but at the same places, it's Toro Rosso at the back and Mercedes in the middle of the field.

It's not like if Ferrari start the year with the strongest car, but failed to capitalize on this like Mclaren. Ferrari start the year much behind everybody, then they caught all of them, and know at some races they are faster than Red Bull, or Mclaren at the others.

Before crying like that we have to remember where the team was before Barcelona.


I agreee with you but bolded sentences are mine concern: why a monster of a team like Ferrari allows himself to start the season behind for couple of years now...thats the main question for HQ in Ferrari...


#2024 ViMaMo

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:43

why a monster of a team like Ferrari allows himself to start the season behind for couple of years now...

the outdated windtunnel?
I dont know whats the exact problem, maybe someone better informed can enlighten. Is the Ferrari windtunnel outdated or is it erroneous?

#2025 kosmos

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:25

Do we know if the next updates are something that was tested on the Toyota wind tunnel?.

#2026 Gintonious

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:15

I hope to christ they are, we can't afford updates that don't work well anymore!

#2027 oetzi

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:25

Its a 5 race championship now like Alonso said and with a car like this I am afraid its not possible to win...

It's easier to win a 5 race championship with an inferior car than to win a 15 race championship with an inferior car. And who's ahead after 15 races?

If you offered Alonso 5 races with the car he has now, or 15 with the one he started the year in, which do you think he would choose?

Also, the Ferrari was the second best car on Sunday. If Alonso hadn't got involved in the mess at the start he'd probably have been third at worst, and still have a useful lead.

Things are a lot better than they were, or anyone would have guessed they would be, at the start of the year.

As it is, anything can happen from here on in. [paranoia]Hopefully not involving Lotus (nee Renault) cars punting Ferraris off the track to the benefit of the works Renault team.[/paranoia]

As an aside, great drive from Massa.

#2028 muelte

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:58

This is complete nonsense. :lol: It seems Alonso fans would go at any lengths to diminish how good Ferrari is just to make him look good. Massa proved the car was good, he was faster than McLaren easily! And Massa wont even be ranked as a top 15 driver right now.


Yeah, let's see then how Massa has performed with the car at most races, but I suppose that's doesn't prove anything, only yesterday right?

Edited by muelte, 08 October 2012 - 08:59.


#2029 leomax

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:03

Ferrari need to deliver,pronto.

#2030 pikamoku

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:27

please, stand your head up!!

come on!, nothing's been lost. I'm pretty sure nobody but Maranello's people are working hard to do their best. It could not be enough but, for god-jesuschrist-jeezz sake... dont cry!!

#2031 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:49

the outdated windtunnel?
I dont know whats the exact problem, maybe someone better informed can enlighten. Is the Ferrari windtunnel outdated or is it erroneous?


The wind tunnel sucks and their CFD is years behind the competition as well. That's because they had their own test track and other teams had to rely on simulation much more, and therefore had a head start when track testing was outlawed. I believe the previous tech leadership did not realize how big the deficits were, and Fry started to implement improvement programs which are not done yet. They were far behind in simulator work as well, but installed a new state-of-the-art one for the 2010 season.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 08 October 2012 - 10:51.


#2032 BoxToOvertake

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:07

i think ferrari and alonso should be positive after this race , when massa finishes 2nd and lets say 3rd if webber didnt crash , imagine what alonso could have done . and massa was matching vettel as i remember when the gap was 10 seconds all that with a ****ed up qualy for alonso. so maybe 3rd was the minimum for alonso in suzuka . not very bad afterall. if it goes down to vettel vs. alonso , i will definitely root for alonso.

#2033 Gintonious

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:12

Emergency meeting in Maranello today, both Fry and Dominicalli have flown back before Korea, I'd say Luca is ready to read the riot act to them.

#2034 oetzi

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:30

Emergency meeting in Maranello today, both Fry and Dominicalli have flown back before Korea, I'd say Luca is ready to read the riot act to them.

Hopefully it'll be something more constructive than that. Just a waste of everyone's time otherwise.

#2035 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 14:08

I guess this photo from Berliner Zeitung may answer the question why Fernando did not drive back to the pits:
Posted Image

And after spending the time with the above, I came upon this one, *sigh*, from new Adam Cooper article about LdM statements:
Posted Image

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 08 October 2012 - 14:16.


#2036 Enzoluis

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 15:30

i think ferrari and alonso should be positive after this race , when massa finishes 2nd and lets say 3rd if webber didnt crash , imagine what alonso could have done . and massa was matching vettel as i remember when the gap was 10 seconds all that with a ****ed up qualy for alonso. so maybe 3rd was the minimum for alonso in suzuka . not very bad afterall. if it goes down to vettel vs. alonso , i will definitely root for alonso.


Vettel anytime he wanted made laps one second faster than the best of Massa.

#2037 Massa

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 15:43

Yes, Vettel was one second faster than anybody. It was a little bit like Valencia.

#2038 zottzell

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 16:35

Race pace is only part of the picture, had the Ferrari been faster during qualification then Alonso and Massa wouldnt have to start from the second, third or even fourth row and that would mean less risk during the launch of the race. If Alonso would have been able to qualify higher up then he probably wouldn't have these two DNF's and he and Massa would have a much better chance and overall easier sundays.

#2039 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 16:46

Race pace is only part of the picture, had the Ferrari been faster during qualification then Alonso and Massa wouldnt have to start from the second, third or even fourth row and that would mean less risk during the launch of the race. If Alonso would have been able to qualify higher up then he probably wouldn't have these two DNF's and he and Massa would have a much better chance and overall easier sundays.

But the same was true for RedBull... Until Singapore, they were struggling to make it consistently to the first three rows of the grid, and it was not unusual for them to have great race pace, but to be nowhere in qualy (see, for instance, Vettel at Spa).
The difference between Ferrari and RedBull in this regard (qualy pace) is that RedBull appears to be on its way to solve it. Ferrari, is not there yet.

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#2040 Techcheat

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 16:47

When any idiot could have guessed that qualifying is the key to 2012 specially as it helps keeps the tires in good shape when you are not in traffic and overtaking being tough in certain circuits. Our friends at Maranello chose to prioritize race pace over qualifying. The results are on the wall. Whilst race pace is good, they are left getting a rubbing in qualifying. You know why?

Caz when teams like Lotus (albeit unsucessfuly) and RBR were busy introducing DDRS to optimize their qualifying and reduce their outright speed deficit, Ferrari was busy testing front wings/rear wings that didnt work!

Its pure luck they led so far, now its time for them to be humbled. And no matter how much his voice rubs salts to the wounds, you might as well get used to Vettels post race win cheering!

They cant hide behind excuses anymore. First it used to be they had a dog of a car pre-season so cut them some slack they came so far. Now it is, remember they had a dog of a car. Come on.... they had a dog of a car, caz they made one. They were RESPONSIBLE for it. They were helped by others misfortune to be in a position to lead. They did well to produce good updates at Spa and had a chance to be the class of the field. But again they were outdeveloped, and outraced. You cant go back and give an excuse they had a dog of a car. They had one of the best cars on the grid in Spa and again due to their own slack they are where they are.

When they produced a good car in Spa they didnt say corelation in wind tunnel was bad. No, they said things are fixed. They were left behind by competition, again its a wind tunnel problem. Its not a problem of wind tunnel, its just them not being bold enough/fast enough or efficient enough. Be it race strategy on the field or their designing off the field, they are conservative at best. No DDRS, no blown exhausts, no complex maps... just same old same old hoping for a better result, guess what, it AINT WORKING!!!

Edited by Techcheat, 08 October 2012 - 16:54.


#2041 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 16:55

Our friends at Maranello chose to prioritize race pace over qualifying.


Got a source for this revolutionary news?


#2042 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 17:01

When any idiot could have guessed that qualifying is the key to 2012 specially as it helps keeps the tires in good shape when you are not in traffic and overtaking being tough in certain circuits. Our friends at Maranello chose to prioritize race pace over qualifying. The results are on the wall. Whilst race pace is good, they are left getting a rubbing in qualifying. You know why?

Caz when teams like Lotus (albeit unsucessfuly) and RBR were busy introducing DDRS to optimize their qualifying and reduce their outright speed deficit, Ferrari was busy testing front wings/rear wings that didnt work!

Its pure luck they led so far, now its time for them to be humbled. And no matter how much his voice rubs salts to the wounds, you might as well get used to Vettels post race win cheering!

They cant hide behind excuses anymore. First it used to be they had a dog of a car pre-season so cut them some slack they came so far. Now it is, remember they had a dog of a car. Come on.... they had a dog of a car, caz they made one. They were RESPONSIBLE for it. They were helped by others misfortune to be in a position to lead. They did well to produce good updates at Spa and had a chance to be the class of the field. But again they were outdeveloped, and outraced. You cant go back and give an excuse they had a dog of a car. They had one of the best cars on the grid in Spa and again due to their own slack they are where they are.

When they produced a good car in Spa they didnt say corelation in wind tunnel was bad. No, they said things are fixed. They were left behind by competition, again its a wind tunnel problem. Its not a problem of wind tunnel, its just them not being bold enough/fast enough or efficient enough. Be it race strategy on the field or their designing off the field, they are conservative at best. No DDRS, no blown exhausts, no complex maps... just same old same old hoping for a better result, guess what, it AINT WORKING!!!

I would not say luck.
They had the best car in changing conditions among the frontrunners, by a mile.
They have very solid race pace. As Alonso said, on race day, they don't fear from anyone.
Yes, they have problems with qualy, but that is the story for all the other teams on the grid with the exception of McLaren.
We don't know if RedBull put a car on the front row for the last two races because they finally found the sweet spot for this year, or because of the nature of the circuit, and then for Korea they will be qualifying as they were for Spa.
The teams have two choices when designing a car: to make it fast in qualy, or to make it fast in the race. Given that points are given on race day, the latter seems a more natural path. Granted, a fast car in the race usually is a good car in qualy, but not the other way around (didn't Montoya got 7 straight poles in 2002, and little to show from them?), so which way is better to go?
Of 12 teams on the grid, 11 struggle with the balance race pace/qualy pace; and one (McLaren) has got it right from day 1.
I would certainly not blame Ferrari for taking the approach they did.


#2043 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 17:02

Got a source for this revolutionary news?

I think it is pretty standard nowadays to focus on the car being fast for the race rather than in qualy (some teams, don't even run low fuel laps until late of the winter program, or even until the opening event).

#2044 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 17:53

I think it is pretty standard nowadays to focus on the car being fast for the race rather than in qualy (some teams, don't even run low fuel laps until late of the winter program, or even until the opening event).


Yes, but that's because when you have limited time it's most effective to make the car fast when heavy, because such a car will usually react well to low fuel and scale its pace as expected. But what Techcheat posited was something different, that the design team compromised quali speed on purpose in exchange to race speed. And I have seen no evidence for this ever, so I'm asking Techcheat whether his rant is based on actual facts at all.

#2045 Techcheat

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 18:32

Yes, but that's because when you have limited time it's most effective to make the car fast when heavy, because such a car will usually react well to low fuel and scale its pace as expected. But what Techcheat posited was something different, that the design team compromised quali speed on purpose in exchange to race speed. And I have seen no evidence for this ever, so I'm asking Techcheat whether his rant is based on actual facts at all.


The fact is Ferrari chose not to develop DDRS as they thought they could bring performance the "traditional" way and not focus on DDRS which primarilly benefits in guess what ? Yup, you read it, QUALI.

Lotus/RBR chose to bring both the "traditional" developments to exhausts, front wing, rear wing... but also developed DDRS which provides gains mainly in qualifying.

Guess which team is leading the championship? Guess which team is getting the poles??

Coming to Ferrari thread year after year is like coming to an island that was once an oasis and is now a desert where ppl just hope and pray for rain!!!

#2046 RedF1

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 18:39

When any idiot could have guessed that qualifying is the key to 2012 specially as it helps keeps the tires in good shape when you are not in traffic and overtaking being tough in certain circuits. Our friends at Maranello chose to prioritize race pace over qualifying. The results are on the wall. Whilst race pace is good, they are left getting a rubbing in qualifying. You know why?

Caz when teams like Lotus (albeit unsucessfuly) and RBR were busy introducing DDRS to optimize their qualifying and reduce their outright speed deficit, Ferrari was busy testing front wings/rear wings that didnt work!

Its pure luck they led so far, now its time for them to be humbled. And no matter how much his voice rubs salts to the wounds, you might as well get used to Vettels post race win cheering!

They cant hide behind excuses anymore. First it used to be they had a dog of a car pre-season so cut them some slack they came so far. Now it is, remember they had a dog of a car. Come on.... they had a dog of a car, caz they made one. They were RESPONSIBLE for it. They were helped by others misfortune to be in a position to lead. They did well to produce good updates at Spa and had a chance to be the class of the field. But again they were outdeveloped, and outraced. You cant go back and give an excuse they had a dog of a car. They had one of the best cars on the grid in Spa and again due to their own slack they are where they are.

When they produced a good car in Spa they didnt say corelation in wind tunnel was bad. No, they said things are fixed. They were left behind by competition, again its a wind tunnel problem. Its not a problem of wind tunnel, its just them not being bold enough/fast enough or efficient enough. Be it race strategy on the field or their designing off the field, they are conservative at best. No DDRS, no blown exhausts, no complex maps... just same old same old hoping for a better result, guess what, it AINT WORKING!!!



Wow :eek: great post 'Techcheat'!

Its incredible how smart and clever you are, really. I just wonder how come you have all this knowlegde and understanding of to make this kind of statements:

- When any idiot could have guessed that qualifying is the key to 2012 :wave: are you one of these idiots too?
- It's pure luck they led so far... :confused: do you feel unlucky yourself?
- Its not a problem of wind tunnel, its just them not being bold enough/fast enough or efficient enough :smoking: do you know personally some people who are more qualified in F1 then the ingenieers and designers at Ferrari, if yes, please adress Ferrari straightaway here: betterstaff@Ferrari.com
- they are conservative at best :clap: here again... how could they even make a F1 car to be leading a WDC after 15 ! races ?
- No DDRS, no blown exhausts, no complex maps - well the Ferrari engineers and designers must be really nut, how could they have missed? :cool:
- guess what, it AINT WORKING!!! :kiss: yes, now we all feel better, you have opened our eyes and prepared us for something very bad is going to happen.

Thanks again. Of course, if you would make your post as your personal opinion, I would just over read it, but no, as you pretend have all the facts from pre-season, from the race updates and specially an insight of what is going to happen over the next five races.... made me read your post twice, and still you seem to be really frustrated!

Nevertheless, I agree that situation doesnt look extremly good now for the WDC, instead of 50,49,29 Alonso is only 4 points ahead of Vettel, and many more points ahead of the rest of the pack. Now, do you think it is a bad thing to be ahead by 4 points after 15 races? Yes or no? Thank you!

#2047 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 18:49

The fact is Ferrari chose not to develop DDRS as they thought they could bring performance the "traditional" way and not focus on DDRS which primarilly benefits in guess what ? Yup, you read it, QUALI.

Lotus/RBR chose to bring both the "traditional" developments to exhausts, front wing, rear wing... but also developed DDRS which provides gains mainly in qualifying.

Guess which team is leading the championship? Guess which team is getting the poles??

Coming to Ferrari thread year after year is like coming to an island that was once an oasis and is now a desert where ppl just hope and pray for rain!!!



And DDRS doesn't work for Lotus at all and the resources expended on it distracted them. It's obvious they fell back. Similar for Merc.
Its introduction coincides with RBR becoming really fast, but Christian Danner on RTL was very convinced (I think he had talked to people) that it is a smokescreen and the performance was found elsewhere.
McLaren are probably very fast (I'm waiting for confirmation of consistency) without it.

Ergo, focusing criticism on the absence a single wonder device is fallacious. It's obvious that the development is lacking, but not due to not having DDRS. Edit: I forgot to mention that Lotus DDRS and RBR DDRS are totally different things, so it's hard to use them as a quick&dirty argument against SF's development

But that's all beside the point, and you are trying to change the goalposts. You talked about SF prioritizing race speed over quali speed in the context of tyre preservation and were talking about fundamental concepts of the car.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 08 October 2012 - 19:24.


#2048 FizzyJerk

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 18:52

The fact is Ferrari chose not to develop DDRS as they thought they could bring performance the "traditional" way and not focus on DDRS which primarilly benefits in guess what ? Yup, you read it, QUALI.

Lotus/RBR chose to bring both the "traditional" developments to exhausts, front wing, rear wing... but also developed DDRS which provides gains mainly in qualifying.

Guess which team is leading the championship? Guess which team is getting the poles??

Coming to Ferrari thread year after year is like coming to an island that was once an oasis and is now a desert where ppl just hope and pray for rain!!!


Joined May 2012.... Mmmm

#2049 Techcheat

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 19:19

Joined May 2012.... Mmmm



Didnt stop me from reading now... mmm... did it?

betterstaff@Ferrari.com = Massa/SFD/Fry@sacked... Newey/Bob Bell/Flavio/Hulkenburg@recruited

Edited by Techcheat, 08 October 2012 - 19:25.


#2050 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 19:29

Didnt stop me from reading now... mmm... did it?

betterstaff@Ferrari.com = Massa/SFD/Fry@sacked... Newey/Flavio/Hulkenburg@recruited


No surprise that this is the quality of your "solutions":
Flavio: Useless in anything but a commercial capacity, in which Ferrari needs no help. And simply just no. Edit: Ferrari have a valuable brand to protect, you know?
Newey: It's commonly known that Ferrari tried to get him, but he won't leave GB. Plus if you have Newey, what is Briatore for?
Hulkenberg: A sensible choice for a second driver, but no solution whatsoever for a development problem.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 08 October 2012 - 19:30.