Jump to content


Photo

Ferrari F2012 - Part III


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
4052 replies to this topic

#2401 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 2,530 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:55

That's quite something given where mclaren and ferrari were at the start of the season with mclaren being fastest and ferrari... about 5th. It's even more impressive given Massa's struggles until the last few races.

Exactly! Though remember Button and Hamilton had quite a few DNFs. Still, it's a situation few thought possible back in Australia. :up:

Edited by Nonesuch, 14 October 2012 - 07:55.


Advertisement

#2402 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 665 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:55

I am sorry but that's crap. Massa is not miles behind and he was faster 0.5 sec per lap over Alonso.


Didn't Felipe finish like 4 seconds behind Alonso in the end? Maybe I misread the timing, my bad!

#2403 Frank

Frank
  • Member

  • 192 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:55

I get the impression that Ferrari have defaulted to the "focus on next year" part of the season. This car hasn't had any *major* updates since the McLaren style exhaust it seems. You can't win championships bringing a marginally different front or rear wing to a race that may or may not even work. The team are waiting for luck again, so am I!

Same thinking too...beside the exhaust that copied Mac and nothing major besides their failed front and rear wing that they blamed on faulty wind tunnel. RB's Andrian is on its own class compared to Pat Fry. Their own exhaust, DDRS and some other secret parts that other teams do not know even know what it was that bring them up to their current race and quali pace.

#2404 RockyRaccoon68

RockyRaccoon68
  • Member

  • 1,459 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:56

Massa was miles quicker in the second stint and at the start of the last stint. We know that Alonso isn't slower than Massa though so instead of turning it into an Alonso v Massa thing it is important to understand why Alonso was struggling.

#2405 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 9,475 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:56

It's nothing to do with set up, Massa just pushed too quickly on fresh tyres and destroyed them too early. He started off quick but ended up miles behind Alonso.

I'm not too disappointed with the race result tbh, at least Alonso finished 3rd. Ferrari updates to Korea are going to be very important for the title race. Massa too, he needs to continue this run of form.

Forza Ferrari.

What? Massa at one stage asked what kind of lap times Webber was doing and said he could match them. Ferrari asked Massa to slow and in the end he brought the car home without pushing.

#2406 Fortymark

Fortymark
  • Member

  • 5,803 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:56

Ferrari should have let Massa past Alonso, then he could have pushed like hell to
unsettle Mark & Seb. Ferrari could have given the place back later with either a pass
or an extra pitstop for Massa.

#2407 TIFOlonSO

TIFOlonSO
  • Member

  • 324 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:59

Yes, indeed Ferrari should let Massa 'push' Webber and putting his 4th place and the 2ond in wcc in danger.
Get real, Red Bull was dominant.
Good news is that Ferrari are right behind them witch is very good.

#2408 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 665 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:00

What? Massa at one stage asked what kind of lap times Webber was doing and said he could match them. Ferrari asked Massa to slow and in the end he brought the car home without pushing.


My bad, I thought Massa's tyres were gone by the last few laps.

Hmm. So do people think Ferrari should have let Massa go through to attack Webber and if he got past then slow him up? I wanted it to happen during the race but it didn't come true. Bah.

Either way guys, Ferrari are now second in the constructors which is amazing given where we were at the beginning of the year. Still 4 races to go though, could well go down right to the end.

#2409 Vesuvius

Vesuvius
  • Member

  • 6,101 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:00

Didn't Felipe finish like 4 seconds behind Alonso in the end? Maybe I misread the timing, my bad!


You do realise team gave order for Massa to stay away from Alonso? Massa was clearly faster today...at one point he was far away but still with fantastic pace catched Alonso and then was told to slow down. Massa has had two fantastic races now.

#2410 SCUDmissile

SCUDmissile
  • Member

  • 3,955 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:01

Felipe was unquestionably quicker today. Ferrari themselves said so, saying that he was the only one matching Vettel.
So hopefully we find out why Fernando couldn't do the same, very soon.

P.S. Vettel also backed way off at the end of race.

#2411 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 5,147 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:02

Ferrari should have let Massa past Alonso, then he could have pushed like hell to
unsettle Mark & Seb. Ferrari could have given the place back later with either a pass
or an extra pitstop for Massa.


That would have been a scheme worthy of Rube Goldberg and destined to go wrong somewhere. Not worth the risk for no gain: Ferrari knew that RBR were toying, they would have just upped the pace a little to keep Webber in front of Massa.

#2412 Frank

Frank
  • Member

  • 192 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:03

RB are just controlling the pace and how could Massa catch MW?

#2413 4L3X

4L3X
  • Member

  • 2,013 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:05

Who knows? Remember, those tires do not degrade progressively, and predictably. Maybe a bit of a push could possibly send them over.

#2414 RockyRaccoon68

RockyRaccoon68
  • Member

  • 1,459 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:06

Felipe was unquestionably quicker today. Ferrari themselves said so, saying that he was the only one matching Vettel.
So hopefully we find out why Fernando couldn't do the same, very soon.


This is the important thing, the bashers will use it as an opportunity to say Fernando has forgot how to drive but it's important to figure out why the car wasn't so good for him today.

#2415 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 3,049 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:08

Massa was miles quicker in the second stint and at the start of the last stint. We know that Alonso isn't slower than Massa though so instead of turning it into an Alonso v Massa thing it is important to understand why Alonso was struggling.

Massa was quick last time out, and again this time out. Why does that mean Alonso has a problem? Every driver is slower than his team mate from time to time. No problem needed to explain that.

Edited by oetzi, 14 October 2012 - 08:08.


#2416 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 665 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:09

This is the important thing, the bashers will use it as an opportunity to say Fernando has forgot how to drive but it's important to figure out why the car wasn't so good for him today.


He was very quick in the second stint but yeah the last stint was horrible :|

#2417 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 3,049 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:10

Who knows? Remember, those tires do not degrade progressively, and predictably. Maybe a bit of a push could possibly send them over.

Yep. Red Bull were worried about it. But pushing them to that extent would have meant sacrificing Massa's race completely. And might not have worked.

#2418 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 9,475 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:10

That would have been a scheme worthy of Rube Goldberg and destined to go wrong somewhere. Not worth the risk for no gain: Ferrari knew that RBR were toying, they would have just upped the pace a little to keep Webber in front of Massa.

I actually don't think so hey. Right after the stops when Vettel and Webber were pushing Massa was the only driver to match their pace.

Ah well, it is 2 races on the trot that Massa has been very quick in the race and seemingly more comfortable with the car than Alonso. Ferrari will have to study why that is because I think this race was a wasted opportunity for Alonso.

#2419 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 5,147 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:11

Yep. Red Bull were worried about it. But pushing them to that extent would have meant sacrificing Massa's race completely. And might not have worked.


Red Bull pretended to be worried about it yet set fastest laps and sectors in the final laps.

Advertisement

#2420 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 5,143 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:14

Maybe a little mind games from Bull? Making Ferrari push so something might happen. Clever

#2421 Mr.Wayne

Mr.Wayne
  • Member

  • 572 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:16

Didn't Felipe finish like 4 seconds behind Alonso in the end? Maybe I misread the timing, my bad!

6.2 And why bother with Felipe? He got close to Alonso and got ordered to push back; he was told he could go fast again ("Alonso is going to start pushing") and went 4 tenths faster than Fernando at the very next lap. Why bother showing to the world you were faster? He would have only pissed the guys on the pitwall if he were too close to Alonso (risking DRS?), so better to be a good lapdog, and wait for that shiny contract knocking on you doorstep.

#2422 bmardini

bmardini
  • Member

  • 326 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:16

guys this wasn't a race.

Seb went PB and purple in sectors when his tires were supposedly down to the canvas.

Mark was able to switch on 1-2s of pace whenever he wanted.

This championship is over unless RB get some pretty atrocious luck.

#2423 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 3,049 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:18

Great result for Ferrari today. The car was quick, mainly by taking things off it. Hopefully that means the new bits to go on it will push the pace even closer to Red Bull at the next races. Good drives from bot drivers, particularly Massa, who seems to have found his mojo over the last couple of races, looking quicker than . Up to second in the constructors, perhaps largely by luck and McLaren/Grosjean DNFs over the year, but it is what it is and has been achieved with what has probably been on average the 4th quickest car over the season so far. Looks like the second best car at the moment though, which is great progress. And with a big update to come next time out, there's a chance to go into the last four races with the quickest car and only 6 points to make up.

#2424 Skellen

Skellen
  • Member

  • 513 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:19

6.2 And why bother with Felipe? He got close to Alonso and got ordered to push back; he was told he could go fast again ("Alonso is going to start pushing") and went 4 tenths faster than Fernando at the very next lap. Why bother showing to the world you were faster? He would have only pissed the guys on the pitwall if he were too close to Alonso (risking DRS?), so better to be a good lapdog, and wait for that shiny contract knocking on you doorstep.

Or maybe he just wanted to be a team player, considering that this year he doesnt have a chance of the WDC, while his teammate has?

Edited by Mandzipop, 14 October 2012 - 10:36.
Removal of Go somewhere else, troll.


#2425 Mr.Wayne

Mr.Wayne
  • Member

  • 572 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:20

Yep. Red Bull were worried about it. But pushing them to that extent would have meant sacrificing Massa's race completely. And might not have worked.

Massa's race would not have been destroyed. Assuming he would have destroyed his tyres and the tactic would not have reaped any benefits for Alonso (worst case scenario) he could have pitted and either come back ahead of Raikkonen, or just behind him, but with much superior rubber.

But good thing for Ferrari: they didn't have to go through the "humiliation" of having Alonso "overtaken" by his slow teammate.

#2426 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 3,049 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:21

Red Bull pretended to be worried about it yet set fastest laps and sectors in the final laps.

I'm not sure that's true. Did you see what happened to Vettel before his last stop? I doubt they wanted to chance that happening again. I'm the last quick laps were just to make everyone think that's what they were doing, having made sure they saved enough. Not much point discussing that though, as it's just down to gut reactions as to which trick they were trying to pull off :)

edit for spelling

Edited by oetzi, 14 October 2012 - 08:26.


#2427 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 665 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:22

guys this wasn't a race.

Seb went PB and purple in sectors when his tires were supposedly down to the canvas.

Mark was able to switch on 1-2s of pace whenever he wanted.

This championship is over unless RB get some pretty atrocious luck.


Yeah, it worries me how much pace Reb Bull have in hand, particularly judging from Vettels pace at the end of the stint.

Does anyone have any idea about how significant the India updates are supposed to be? At this rate, in terms of race pace we need at least 3-4 tenths a lap.

#2428 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 3,049 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:25

Massa's race would not have been destroyed. Assuming he would have destroyed his tyres and the tactic would not have reaped any benefits for Alonso (worst case scenario) he could have pitted and either come back ahead of Raikkonen, or just behind him, but with much superior rubber.

But good thing for Ferrari: they didn't have to go through the "humiliation" of having Alonso "overtaken" by his slow teammate.

Yep, that's why Ferrari go racing. So that they can guess which driver will be faster, then spend every season ensuring their management's prediction looks correct, completely ignoring the chance to win races and championships. Sorry, forgot that.

As for Massa's race, to make it work well, he'd have had to go very hard, very early. And he'd have kept doing it if it was working, trying to chase Vettel down the order by going as fast as he could (strange plan, eh? Mihght have worked, but strange) regardless of what it would do to the tyres, as all he needed to do was get near Vettel, and Vettel would have pulled over to let him by. Then he could slow right down, and Vettel would have to be very trusting to try and overtake. Although, to be fair, Flippy's really not like that.

#2429 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 5,147 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:26

Massa's race would not have been destroyed. Assuming he would have destroyed his tyres and the tactic would not have reaped any benefits for Alonso (worst case scenario) he could have pitted and either come back ahead of Raikkonen, or just behind him, but with much superior rubber.

But good thing for Ferrari: they didn't have to go through the "humiliation" of having Alonso "overtaken" by his slow teammate.


Just as well, Massa could have overtaken Webbo but not Vettel, and Alonso could still have been too slow for getting Webber . That would have meant for Ferrari to let Massa be overtaken on purpose by Webber and then Alonso. The whole thing is a stupid idea by bored forumers, nothing more.

#2430 Mr M0by

Mr M0by
  • Member

  • 523 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:26

Let's take the positive, Ferrari's pace was good. If this race featured more updates for RB than Ferrari had, as has been suggested, then so long as our team have something else to offer over them in India we're going to be there or there abouts. I know "there abouts" isn't enough to comfortably secure the title but we're still in it.

I thought they might have let Felipe pass to attack Mark, given that they could always return the position if it didn't work but perhaps that would have been an uncomfortable admission for the team that he was faster than Fernando at that point. And I don't say that as Alonso-bashing, I want Fernando to win as much as anybody... Regardless hopefully Felipes form continues as we need it to be if we're to retrieve and then extend a points gap for the WDC.

#2431 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 5,147 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:28

I'm not sure that's true. Did you see what happened to Vettel before his last stop? I doubt they wanted to chance that happening again. I'm the last quick laps were just to make everyone think that's what they were doing, having made sure they saved enough. Not much point discussing that though, as it's just down to gut reactions as to which trick they were trying to pull off :)

edit for spelling


Yeah we can't be sure either way, but I think it was obvious that RBR was the vastly quicker car today. They didn't just end the race with super fast sectors, but when Alonso got closer in the middle of stints, Webber always effortlessly upped the pace

#2432 SCUDmissile

SCUDmissile
  • Member

  • 3,955 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:28

Maybe a little mind games from Bull? Making Ferrari push so something might happen. Clever

I think so too. Maybe a little of 'our tyres are done, but we are still doing purple'
But Vettel's stint at the start was crazy, FL after FL.

#2433 Richard T

Richard T
  • Member

  • 1,302 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:30

Now its frikkin time to get updates to the car that WORKS! Im not seeing another 2011 season run in from Seb after Fernando has had the lead with 37 points three weeks ago.

#2434 Richard T

Richard T
  • Member

  • 1,302 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:30

Now its frikkin time to get updates to the car that WORKS! Im not seeing another 2011 season run in from Seb after Fernando has had the lead with 37 points three weeks ago.

#2435 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 3,049 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:30

Yeah, it worries me how much pace Reb Bull have in hand, particularly judging from Vettels pace at the end of the stint.

Does anyone have any idea about how significant the India updates are supposed to be? At this rate, in terms of race pace we need at least 3-4 tenths a lap.

How can you poissibly judge that? The Ferraris had no reason to push at the end when the cars were lightest. A quick Google shows you fuel consumption of 2.75kg per lap and .4s per 10kg of fuel shed. So, with the Ferraris not pushing at the end, there's your 4 tenths. Of course , it's never that simple, but it helps to bear it in mind.

#2436 Mr M0by

Mr M0by
  • Member

  • 523 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:31

I read somewhere recently that Alo will have an engine advantage towards the end of the season but can't recall why.... If true, I take it they've used less and have one more fresh one to rocket them onwards at some point...

#2437 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 3,049 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:33

Yeah we can't be sure either way, but I think it was obvious that RBR was the vastly quicker car today. They didn't just end the race with super fast sectors, but when Alonso got closer in the middle of stints, Webber always effortlessly upped the pace

Yeah, they were quicker, but I saw no evidence they were massively quicker. They also appeared noticeably harder on the tyres, but there didn't appear to be a strategy available that would maximise that advantaqe. The two stopper looked best, no matter how you slice it. Unless setting Massa loose on the Bulls had worked, and he was willing to do that knowing how obvious it would be, third and fourth looked the best possible result, so nothing lost, and the championship's still on.


#2438 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 5,147 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:33

Vettel on RTL talking about the tyre-related pit radio at the end and how he saved tyres, but smiling a lot throughout. Nothing to read from his demeanor. But then he's saying that he paced it in the last stint and didn't have the feeling the tyres were marginal.

#2439 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 4,413 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:38

Vettel is right, and Alonso was in bad shape with his front tyres, i think it's why Massa was quicker.

http://www.f1technic...c...5&start=360


Watch ZGRED pictures, Alonso front right tyres was dead.

Advertisement

#2440 SCUDmissile

SCUDmissile
  • Member

  • 3,955 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:40

Of the last five races, on paper, this was definitely the toughest for Ferrari which can still leave Korea with pride in the fact its cars proved to be very competitive in today’s race.


????

#2441 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 3,049 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:43

Vettel on RTL talking about the tyre-related pit radio at the end and how he saved tyres, but smiling a lot throughout. Nothing to read from his demeanor. But then he's saying that he paced it in the last stint and didn't have the feeling the tyres were marginal.

Alonso talking the team down but the result up, as usual (SKY). Also intimating he was faster than Massa. Which is a little low. But he seems happier than he's been for a while. On the podium, he was actually quite bullish about the last 4 races. And given his usual 'the car's not there, but I'll try to drag it up the order somehow' shtick (which is not entirely without basis this year, but isn't true every race, and gets wearing) suggests he thinks he's got a real chance. Vettel doesn't seem too chipper, on after him. Quite calm, happy with the result, but not completely confident by any means.

#2442 Mr M0by

Mr M0by
  • Member

  • 523 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:45

????


Pretty obviously translates as, this was the toughest for Ferrari of the remaining 5 races, so to finish 3rd and 5 seconds behind a RB, bodes well for the last 4.  ;)

#2443 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 7,423 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:46

I read somewhere recently that Alo will have an engine advantage towards the end of the season but can't recall why.... If true, I take it they've used less and have one more fresh one to rocket them onwards at some point...



That's really worth nothing in my opinion, I don't expect RB engines to explode in the next races. We need aero advantage, and RB are masters on that and they are way ahead, plus their usual tricks. There is another thing now to be optimistic, 2nd position on the WCC, that's a more realistic target than the WDC, but I will never cease to support the team, hope is the last thing to die.

#2444 Mr M0by

Mr M0by
  • Member

  • 523 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:48

That's really worth nothing in my opinion, I don't expect RB engines to explode in the next races. We need aero advantage, and RB are masters on that and they are way ahead, plus their usual tricks.


Thanks.


#2445 smoothcrim

smoothcrim
  • Member

  • 426 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:50

That RBR looks lighting now,the last 4 tracks are RBR country.Will take some good fortune for Alonso to beat Webber to the finish line never mind Vettel.

#2446 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 3,049 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:55

That's really worth nothing in my opinion, I don't expect RB engines to explode in the next races. We need aero advantage, and RB are masters on that and they are way ahead, plus their usual tricks.

Having a an engine one race newer is worth approx tenth a lap on average, iirc (against your own engine a race older, of course. It doesn't slow anyone else down). Which is not to be sniffed at.

There is another thing now to be optimistic, 2nd position on the WCC, that's a more realistic target than the WDC, but I will never cease to support the team, hope is the last thing to die.

There are far more variable, and more competitors for the WCC. two other teams, two cars in each, 4 races, 24 direct variables, each multiplied by pit stop, start risk, overtaking risk, reliability, and all the rest. Versus two cars facing all that for the WDC. SO, actually, the WDC may be an easier goal to aim for from here. Less to control, less can go wrong, and a clear target on who to beat. Not saying it will be easy, but it is possible, and can be planned for more easily than the WCC.

#2447 FerrariAlonso

FerrariAlonso
  • Member

  • 409 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:59

RB confirmed they were due to introduce a series of upgrades for India again... I think the WDC is over now. I am so sad now, what Fernando has done this year is amazing. It is a real shame.

#2448 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 5,143 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:00

No hopes of faster race pace than the red bulls. RBR have that thing whatever it is and its way faster.

#2449 Mackey

Mackey
  • Member

  • 1,415 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:05

Fernando had massive graining in the last stint, that´s why Massa was so much faster, the rest of the race Alonso was a little faster than Massa. Webber too had lots of graining problems for the 2nd and 3rd stint, Pirelli Quality Control is dismal.

#2450 bmardini

bmardini
  • Member

  • 326 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:08

Alonso talking the team down but the result up, as usual (SKY). Also intimating he was faster than Massa. Which is a little low. But he seems happier than he's been for a while. On the podium, he was actually quite bullish about the last 4 races. And given his usual 'the car's not there, but I'll try to drag it up the order somehow' shtick (which is not entirely without basis this year, but isn't true every race, and gets wearing) suggests he thinks he's got a real chance. Vettel doesn't seem too chipper, on after him. Quite calm, happy with the result, but not completely confident by any means.


There is a certain relief when you lose to lead of the WDC I'd think. From this point on he has a lot less to lose.

Massa was the quicker driver today, his car even looked better in S2/S3, so planted.

Its still over IMO. The RB pace advantage is quite extraordinary; I'm pretty sure that whatever update Ferrari has its not going to give them 0.5s/lap in quali/race.