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Ferrari F2012 - Part III


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#2601 boldhakka

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:22

Yeah, I've said already during the live chat that is much too elaborate a scheme to pull off in the heat of the moment. Lots of things to go wrong. And it seems to me that the idea needs to assume that RBR would have been stupid enough to have Webber fight Massa in the first place. My take is that they would have been confident that Vettel would be safe from Massa. Then Webber would let Massa pass easily and save tyres to keep Alonso at bay. We'd end with 1 VET, 2 MAS, 3 WEB, 4 ALO, and Ferrari having taken points away from Alonso.


If your scenario materialized, they would have boxed Massa or have him pretend that there was an engine issue and pull over until Webber and Fernando passed him. The suggested plan would have simply traded-off WCC points for a possible net increase in WDC points for Fernando.

Agree with the first part though, it would have been too elaborate to pull off with a non-zero risk that things wouldn't have gone as planned.

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#2602 Craven Morehead

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:26

I see very little evidence that Red Bull were utterly dominant.


They locked out the front row in qualifying and led the race from flag to flag, while posting the fastest lap. This is, by definition, a dominant performance.

#2603 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:39

If your scenario materialized, they would have boxed Massa or have him pretend that there was an engine issue and pull over until Webber and Fernando passed him. The suggested plan would have simply traded-off WCC points for a possible net increase in WDC points for Fernando.


True, but that is a massive downside of the plan with regard to the foreseeable media and public reaction.


#2604 PoleMan

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:53

Always great to read your posts. You should write more often ;)




I don't think Vettel is going to win seven races in a row. So in my opinion there is still a good chance this year. And in case he wins the last seven races of the year, what could we say apart from congrats and well deserved?
In Australia Alonso was ignored as a contender for the championship. And here we are, with four races to go.

Optimistic until the end.

Thanks Hanzo! :cool:

#2605 SCUDmissile

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:06

Let's move back to the car, and away from the team strategies.

Ferrari wants the GP India hit back with a technology package. Maranello keeps a low profile in order not to raise hopes too high. Change of changing sake can be counterproductive. Ferrari will not reinvent the F2012. Wings, underbody and baffles* to change. But is that enough?


The word in German was Leitbleche Don't know what baffles is, so hopefully one of you guys can help with that. Interesting that the parts outlined are the exact same ones rumoured to have been brought to Singapore.

Source: AMuS

#2606 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:16

Let's move back to the car, and away from the team strategies.



The word in German was Leitbleche Don't know what baffles is, so hopefully one of you guys can help with that. Interesting that the parts outlined are the exact same ones rumoured to have been brought to Singapore.

Source: AMuS


" Flügel, Unterboden und Leitbleche sollen sich ändern" is "wings, floor and flow-directing vanes shall be changed". I guess in English you would usually use the term "vane" in our context. The automatic translation was quite correct though: http://en.wikipedia....fle_(in_vessel)

#2607 SCUDmissile

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:44

Thanks :up:
Wonder what kind of vane.

#2608 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:56

I'm not so sure this qualifies as a "big" package in the way I usually understand it. I'm starting to lose faith here.

#2609 canaus

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 17:03

Where do you people dream up the crap that only Red Bull have to nurse their cars while the others are driving balls to the wall? And I didn't say that the Ferrari was faster than the Red Bull... I said that Massa showed pace capable of fighting with them as per the lap times not some ridiculous fantasy, aimed at easing the blow in case Alonso does not win the championship, that Red Bull could go a second a lap quicker if they weren't tyre limited. I could equally say that Massa could have lapped a second faster without the tyre limitations with no evidence and neither of you could prove me wrong.


I don't understand you.

You are having a go at some Alonso fanboys for whom Alonso is never wrong or slower than Massa/someone, but in the same time you are doing the same thing with Ferrari by saying Massa/the faster Ferrari was capable to fight with RBR, where there is a real evidence that he was not.

Did you saw that RBR was capable for posting fast laps for the all 3rd stint, unlike poor Massa who was struggling with tyres in the last 4 laps? When Smedley said: look Felipe now we are going for them, Felipe did 2 good laps and then he realised he has no tyres and fell behind. Everybody can bang some fast laps with fresh tyres as you know.

Ferrari is no match for RBR right now, nobody is.Time for improving the car.

#2610 Arry2k

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 17:14

I'm not so sure this qualifies as a "big" package in the way I usually understand it. I'm starting to lose faith here.

Well the RB update package isn't 'showy' but rather a number of small detail changes and that has worked wonders. Even our reverting to old spec parts this weekend has brought about a noticeable improvement in pace and all those older parts were only small detail bits as well.

So who knows what effect the India package will bring, even if it is only 'small fry' visually, it could still mean big gains (in context). Its a bit of a hurry up and wait scenario for us all I am afraid. But no need to worry about it in my book, if we win great, if we lose then so be it.

As an aside our friend Jose Luis F1 tweeted the following -

El paquete aerodinámico para India lo han probado en el túnel de viento de Colonia y en el CFD de Maranello, los resultados son buenos


which according to Mr Google Translate is -

The aerodynamic package for India have tried in the wind tunnel in Cologne and CFD Maranello, the results are good


Here's hoping he is right!

#2611 Ferrari2183

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 17:43

I don't understand you.

You are having a go at some Alonso fanboys for whom Alonso is never wrong or slower than Massa/someone, but in the same time you are doing the same thing with Ferrari by saying Massa/the faster Ferrari was capable to fight with RBR, where there is a real evidence that he was not.

Did you saw that RBR was capable for posting fast laps for the all 3rd stint, unlike poor Massa who was struggling with tyres in the last 4 laps? When Smedley said: look Felipe now we are going for them, Felipe did 2 good laps and then he realised he has no tyres and fell behind. Everybody can bang some fast laps with fresh tyres as you know.

Ferrari is no match for RBR right now, nobody is.Time for improving the car.

I've given you real evidence that Massa could match the Red Bulls and that evidence is the lap times. As for Massa not have tyres in the end his third and second last laps were faster than Alonso's still. His average lap time for the stint was only 5 tenths slower than Vettel's despite being in Alonso's wake (sub 2 second gap) for near on 10 laps from 37 - 46 after which he deliberately fell back by lapping in the 45's only to post a time 2 tenths shy (1:42.2) of Webber's fastest lap on his next lap.

And yes Ferrari do need improvements but it is far from being the amount of lap time being discussed in this thread. 3 tenths off the pace in a dry qualifying is as close as Ferrari has ever been this year except for Monza.

#2612 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 17:44

Well the RB update package isn't 'showy' but rather a number of small detail changes and that has worked wonders.


A DDRS bolted on the car and working right away is not small. But I agree with everything else you say.


#2613 Ferrari2183

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 17:50

A DDRS bolted on the car and working right away is not small. But I agree with everything else you say.

I don't want to play down Red Bull's DDRS but from I've seen and read it is much simpler than any other systems we've seen this year. It is actually quite marvelous in its simplicity.

Also as per Scarbs it had emerged that it was tested as far back as Monza and raced in Singapore.

Here is Scarbs analysis

Edited by Ferrari2183, 15 October 2012 - 17:57.


#2614 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 17:59

I don't want to play down Red Bull's DDRS but from I've seen and read it is much simpler than any other systems we've seen this year. It is actually quite marvelous in its simplicity.


Which makes it even more impressive. It's not in the same category as a changed vane,

Also as per Scarbs it had emerged that it was tested as far back as Monza and raced in Singapore.

I know but have no idea why this makes a difference. It was tested in one race and raced successfully on the next, that's pretty much "right away" IMHO


#2615 Ferrari2183

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 18:17

Which makes it even more impressive. It's not in the same category as a changed vane,


I know but have no idea why this makes a difference. It was tested in one race and raced successfully on the next, that's pretty much "right away" IMHO

I think Ferrari have already been caught out by trying to be too cute with exhausts in the pre-season. I would imagine that all the changes that will be introduced will be aimed at maximizing air flow as I seem to recall a stagnant spot in the front of the sidepods a few races ago or was it at the young drivers test.

#2616 rsaca

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 18:22

On a side note, Peter Windsor still believes Alonso will win the WDC:

Peter Windsor ‏@PeterDWindsor
I still think @alo_oficial will win the championship - my thoughts are in the latest edition of http://GPWeek.com

God I hope those updates work.

#2617 jstrains

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 18:41

If updates work and we can jump RB, there is no doubt we can make it!

Fernando and Felipe waiting at the airport after the Korean GP
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#2618 canaus

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 18:53

I've given you real evidence that Massa could match the Red Bulls and that evidence is the lap times. As for Massa not have tyres in the end his third and second last laps were faster than Alonso's still. His average lap time for the stint was only 5 tenths slower than Vettel's despite being in Alonso's wake (sub 2 second gap) for near on 10 laps from 37 - 46 after which he deliberately fell back by lapping in the 45's only to post a time 2 tenths shy (1:42.2) of Webber's fastest lap on his next lap.


I think you are under impresion, that what I'm discussing here is which Ferrari driver was faster. No it isn't, the point is your claim that the faster Ferrari - Massa was capable of matching RBR, meaning we were as fast as them.

What's your evidence? 2nd stint when RBR had balance problems? Even Alonso was faster than Webber there. The real problem is in the 3rd stint, where despite Massa cruising behind Alonso(as you said) he lost 8 seconds and his tyres were shut dead at the end, unlike RBR guys. Meaning, he run faster than his real pace. That's hardly taking the fight with somebody, other than his teammate maybe.

And yes Ferrari do need improvements but it is far from being the amount of lap time being discussed in this thread. 3 tenths off the pace in a dry qualifying is as close as Ferrari has ever been this year except for Monza.


Glad you admitted were the problem was all year long. The car, the team.




#2619 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 18:58

I think Ferrari have already been caught out by trying to be too cute with exhausts in the pre-season. I would imagine that all the changes that will be introduced will be aimed at maximizing air flow as I seem to recall a stagnant spot in the front of the sidepods a few races ago or was it at the young drivers test.


Don't think I've suddenly changed tune to demand radicalism ;) it's just that I need to hear some optimism today. I think you are right with the exhaust assessment, and I'm not categorically saying that some well-placed smallish updates can't make a big difference. They can if the they address the right places, and nothing is worse than making ill-thought out sweeping changes in panic.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 15 October 2012 - 18:58.


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#2620 Arry2k

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 19:37

A DDRS bolted on the car and working right away is not small. But I agree with everything else you say.

True, I forgot about the DDRS, but then that is not the main reason for the upturn in form, it's the other, seemingly small or detail changes that have made the difference.

#2621 Arry2k

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 19:45

I think Ferrari have already been caught out by trying to be too cute with exhausts in the pre-season. I would imagine that all the changes that will be introduced will be aimed at maximizing air flow as I seem to recall a stagnant spot in the front of the sidepods a few races ago or was it at the young drivers test.

I think there is a truism in that. They tried to get a complex solution to work despite them not truly understanding/being able to accurately model the interaction between the exhaust plume, the diffuser and the wash off the rear wheels. It didn't work, but in their defence they learned and learned fast.

Edited by Arry2k, 15 October 2012 - 19:47.


#2622 ferrarijon123

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 19:55

A user from thescuderia.net has posted:

I got some infos and these are coming from a serious source you can trust me.We now plannig to bring a new exhaust which was created for 2013 basic but it will effect a lot this year's car if it works.But team has some suspecious on durability.It needs to be more resistance.Also Shell our parter is preparing a new oil which is aimed to get 1hp and engine power and some reliability.One more thing about Shell oil is it will reduce the fuel consumption. And this info says Ferrari made an application to ban Red Bull's flexi wing but as all we knew they couldnt do it even tests.So Ferrari had tried to copy but so far they failed.DDRS is another device will be tested and finally a new floor entegreted to new exhaust concept and tihgter diffuser.I forgot to say the new front wing.Ferrari tyring to get ready a flexi wing like Red Bull right now.Thats all i know.

Could be a load of rubbish but thought it was relevant. Would be amazing if true :)

#2623 Massa

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:01

I think it's not true but like you said, it would be amazing to have this.

EDIT : I don't know why Ferrari would choose to show their cards now for 2013 with a 2013 exhaust package. It would be silly. But at Abu Dhabi last year, at the young driver test, they show the 2012 exhaust config...

Edited by Massa, 15 October 2012 - 20:04.


#2624 Arry2k

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:06

Well if any of that is true then I am worried. Throwing everything at the car, especially something untested, unknown and as important as a new exhaust, seems a little panicked and desperate. Certainly seems to go against the recent calm approach favoured by Stefano.

#2625 ferrarijon123

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:08

Well if any of that is true then I am worried. Throwing everything at the car, especially something untested, unknown and as important as a new exhaust, seems a little panicked and desperate. Certainly seems to go against the recent calm approach favoured by Stefano.

Although i have extremely high doubts that it's true. As far as i'm concerned, if it's true and the 2013 exhaust will be introduced and Fernando wins the world title, surely it's worth it?

#2626 Arry2k

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:20

Although i have extremely high doubts that it's true. As far as i'm concerned, if it's true and the 2013 exhaust will be introduced and Fernando wins the world title, surely it's worth it?

Oh totally and I would be over the moon if it happened that way. To me at least, it seems like a massive departure from the mantra that has been repeated by SD. Also when you do things in a panic, they tend not to be thought out particularly well. But anyway, time will tell I guess.

Edited by Arry2k, 15 October 2012 - 20:20.


#2627 Ferrari2183

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:29

This is not the first time I've heard about an exhaust config that they're sure produces results but are concerned about durability. I also wouldn't be too concerned about them showing it off prior to next year.

#2628 Ferrari2183

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:35

I think you are under impresion, that what I'm discussing here is which Ferrari driver was faster. No it isn't, the point is your claim that the faster Ferrari - Massa was capable of matching RBR, meaning we were as fast as them.

What's your evidence? 2nd stint when RBR had balance problems? Even Alonso was faster than Webber there. The real problem is in the 3rd stint, where despite Massa cruising behind Alonso(as you said) he lost 8 seconds and his tyres were shut dead at the end, unlike RBR guys. Meaning, he run faster than his real pace. That's hardly taking the fight with somebody, other than his teammate maybe.



Glad you admitted were the problem was all year long. The car, the team.

Now Red Bull had balance problems in the second stint... And of course Massa would have lost time. He lost time because he was behind a slower driver. It really doesn't get any more obvious than that.

And no Massa's tyres weren't shot in the end. At least not any more than Alonso's. Where are you thinking up this stuff?

#2629 sawyer_si

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:39

EDIT : I don't know why Ferrari would choose to show their cards now for 2013 with a 2013 exhaust package. It would be silly. But at Abu Dhabi last year, at the young driver test, they show the 2012 exhaust config...

It's better to win this championship with new exhaust than hope that you will win it next year. If it is proven successful other teams will have plenty of time to copy it for next year anyway, even if it's kept secret until winter testing.

#2630 kosmos

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:52

If the 2013 exhaust can give us some tenths, it's worth trying. It's the time to take some risks.

#2631 eronrules

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:05

If the 2013 exhaust can give us some tenths, it's worth trying. It's the time to take some risks.


i'll bet all my hairs (yes, i have hair :rolleyes: ) that it's gonna be another iteration of RB8 coanda exhaust, one with constant ramp rather than overhang :smoking:

#2632 Seanspeed

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:08

i'll bet all my hairs (yes, i have hair :rolleyes: ) that it's gonna be another iteration of RB8 coanda exhaust, one with constant ramp rather than overhang :smoking:

If so, then they have very little to hide.

#2633 topical

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:10

While panic is never good, they may as well take risks now. Nothing to lose.

#2634 Seanspeed

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:12

While panic is never good, they may as well take risks now. Nothing to lose.

Well the WDC is still possible, so there's that. And our position in the WCC as well.

Performance-wise, I'd say we're in a position to take some risks, but not at the expense of reliability. Constistency will still be important these last races.

#2635 Massa

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:38

Do you think India is the same downforce package than Spa or Silverstone or Suzuka ?

#2636 SCUDmissile

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:44

Do you think India is the same downforce package than Spa or Silverstone or Suzuka ?

I would say it is a little like Istanbul maybe?
I don't know about if this 2013 exhaust is true. But really, if it brings gain then use it. I mean the entire reason for developing the part is to win the world title, so it achieves the goal.
There should be no 'we don't want to show other teams our trick part'
RedBull didn't care about next year when they brought the DDRS, and for good reason.

Edited by SCUDmissile, 15 October 2012 - 21:48.


#2637 Zava

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:46

RedBull didn't are about next year when they brought the DDRS, and for good reason.

for the very simple reason that it will be banned next year.

#2638 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 22:31

A user from thescuderia.net has posted:

I got some infos and these are coming from a serious source you can trust me.We now plannig to bring a new exhaust which was created for 2013 basic but it will effect a lot this year's car if it works.But team has some suspecious on durability.It needs to be more resistance.Also Shell our parter is preparing a new oil which is aimed to get 1hp and engine power and some reliability.One more thing about Shell oil is it will reduce the fuel consumption. And this info says Ferrari made an application to ban Red Bull's flexi wing but as all we knew they couldnt do it even tests.So Ferrari had tried to copy but so far they failed.DDRS is another device will be tested and finally a new floor entegreted to new exhaust concept and tihgter diffuser.I forgot to say the new front wing.Ferrari tyring to get ready a flexi wing like Red Bull right now.Thats all i know.

Could be a load of rubbish but thought it was relevant. Would be amazing if true :)


I'll need to go clean myself if they show up with a new exhaust which works. Man, that would be so amazing.

#2639 CF22

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 22:36

Yup, if that works it would be amazing but that's what the F2012 needs for an instant boost. Since 2013 cars will not be radically different maybe there is some truth to that, but it would have to work from the moment they bolt it on. Amazing indeed.

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#2640 HPT

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:55

A DDRS bolted on the car and working right away is not small. But I agree with everything else you say.


Don't forget they also changed the length of their nose, apparently to incorporate the rotating front wing. That is also quite a massive change. The best part is they've managed to have done all this relatively unnoticed by the media.

#2641 HPT

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 02:01

I'll need to go clean myself if they show up with a new exhaust which works. Man, that would be so amazing.


Does anybody know that user and his/her credibility? Why are we hanging on to the words of some random user? :confused:

#2642 Ravenak

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 02:17

If it's true, then it's the kind of thing that might

1. Win Alonso & Ferrari the 2012 title
2. Bring them into a dominant year in 2013 :smoking:

#2643 Seanspeed

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 02:44

Does anybody know that user and his/her credibility? Why are we hanging on to the words of some random user? :confused:

We're not. At least I'm not. Just discussing the possibility.

Hell, I dont even take what the team/drivers have to say at face value half the time.

#2644 kosmos

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:43

Any development news from this?

Posted Image

#2645 ferrarijon123

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:22

Any development news from this?

Posted Image

Just questions whether Red Bull have outdeveloped Ferrari or whether they've revolutionised the car. Nothing on the development side for Ferrari.

#2646 revlec

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:32

Just questions whether Red Bull have outdeveloped Ferrari or whether they've revolutionised the car. Nothing on the development side for Ferrari.

Autosprint is wondering if RB last results came because they have revolutionised their car, or could it be that they are "superior" at setting up the car?

Edited by revlec, 16 October 2012 - 08:36.


#2647 kosmos

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:52



:up: we are the best building cars, that's for sure.

#2648 Ferrari2183

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:20

Autosprint now also running with the new exhaust story. Also says that Ferrari will do a straight line test at Vairano to confirm reliability and wind tunnel data.

Sounds like a substantial package which will include new wings.

#2649 kosmos

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:21

OK, from the magazine:

-something new for the front brakes (brake ducts?).
-new exhaust and new wings.
-the have a project to warm up the tyres (more quickly) and improve downforce.
-according to the magazine they need a straight line test before india to test the new parts (in Vairano).

my italian it's not good, so maybe someone can make a proper translation. http://i.imgur.com/sIXJX.jpg




#2650 Ferrari2183

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:23

OK, from the magazine:

-something new for the front brakes (brake ducts?).
-new exhaust and new wings.
-the have a project to warm up the tyres (more quickly) and improve downforce.
-according to the magazine they need a straight line test before india to test the new parts (in Vairano).

my italian it's not good, so maybe someone can make a proper translation. http://i.imgur.com/sIXJX.jpg

:up: