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Ferrari F2012 - Part III


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#3951 Seanspeed

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:36

There is right now a lack of comments in here from the people who loves to say a thousand times every weekend that the championship is over.
I am guessing they are waiting to know if Vettel gets a penalty or not so they don't look like fools. Good boys.

I think everybody who has been saying that the championship is over have also said the only hope is bad luck for Vettel, so I dont see how it'd make anyone look foolish.

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#3952 camberley

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:36

Lets hope for the best tomorrow for Alonso

#3953 topical

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:37

They're trying man. And its not like the Mclaren put on upgrades that make it 3/4's of a second faster than it was in India. Certain tracks are going to suit some cars better than others. This obviously isn't gonna be one of those for Ferrari.


The problem is that none of the tracks seem to suit Ferrari. Only when it rains and it hasn't done that since July.

#3954 Ferrari2183

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:37

Unless he can do that speed without DRS, he can be overtaken.


Race engineers say overly optimistic things all the time.

If you say so. I think Stella has been quite frank with his radio calls since forever. The only possible explanation is that the car fell out of the window in Q3. Otherwise, Alonso fluffed it.

#3955 SCUDmissile

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:38

At least top speed is good on the Ferrari. they're gonna need it.

Dispatch Button and Kimi quickly, ideally at the start, then get webber down the back straight.

Hamilton has to stay ahead after first corner, and we have still to see whether Vettel will keep his position.

And Ferrari fanboys are doing the exact same thing by blaming Alonso. It's possible that he lost a few tenths but I see no evidence that the car had another three tenths in it. 41.5, 41.5 and 41.6 with a consistent driver like Fernando indicates there wasn't LOADS more to come. I agree a tenth or two extra was there but we will never know if there were another three tenths or not.


I just see some folks that can recognise he is a human being and we can all make mistakes sometimes. His first lap was fine as a banker, but IMO he could have done better on his second run. That was the issue, as his first run was fine as he was still faster than Maldonado, Button and Raikkonen.

It was the 1:41.9 (?) he did in his second attempt that wasn't great.

Pretty much every other car found 3 tenths, so I don't see why Ferrari couldn't.

#3956 kosmos

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:39

Alonso is the only driver from top 8 that couldn't improve his time, the guys behind (MAS and GRO) only improve 1 thenth, I guess it's easy to blame him but maybe there is another reason than Alonso was shit today (being a possibility too). A lot of talk about Fernando fans this and that, but some Ferrari fans are the shame. I will see you all tomorrow.

#3957 camberley

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:39

If you say so. I think Stella has been quite frank with his radio calls since forever. The only possible explanation is that the car fell out of the window in Q3. Otherwise, Alonso fluffed it.


I think Alonso fluffed it a bit. But the car is a handful so cant blame him too much.

Problem is our updates are just useless.

Look at Lotus , theyve made a huge gain with their new updates and we are nowhere with ours

#3958 decoder

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:40

If you say so. I think Stella has been quite frank with his radio calls since forever.



How would Stella know how much pace the car had left??? If Alonso did some amazing splits or great laps earlier maybe you could say there was time left, but he did pretty much his best splits in Q3. Maybe stella thought they had more pace and was wrong. I see no evidence that the car had more pace.

#3959 Seanspeed

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:40

The problem is that none of the tracks seem to suit Ferrari. Only when it rains and it hasn't done that since July.

Some tracks have definitely suited the Ferrari. Problem is that those tracks might also suit other teams as well. Competition is tough.

The only possible explanation is that the car fell out of the window in Q3. Otherwise, Alonso fluffed it.

Its not the only possible explanation, its just the one you're limiting yourself to.

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#3960 camberley

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:40

If you say so. I think Stella has been quite frank with his radio calls since forever. The only possible explanation is that the car fell out of the window in Q3. Otherwise, Alonso fluffed it.


I think Alonso fluffed it a bit. But the car is a handful so cant blame him too much.

Problem is our updates are just useless.

Look at Lotus , theyve made a huge gain with their new updates and we are nowhere with ours

#3961 revlec

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:41

If you say so. I think Stella has been quite frank with his radio calls since forever. The only possible explanation is that the car fell out of the window in Q3. Otherwise, Alonso fluffed it.


You are asking for trouble... :)


#3962 showtime

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:41

I just see some folks that can recognise he is a human being and we can all make mistakes sometimes. His first lap was fine as a banker, but IMO he could have done better on his second run. That was the issue, as his first run was fine as he was still faster than Maldonado, Button and Raikkonen.

It was the 1:41.9 (?) he did in his second attempt that wasn't great.

Pretty much every other car found 3 tenths, so I don't see why Ferrari couldn't.


Maldonado did one run AFAIK and he was always faster. Button, well, look where Hamilton is...


#3963 ViMaMo

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:42

They're trying man. And its not like the Mclaren put on upgrades that make it 3/4's of a second faster than it was in India. Certain tracks are going to suit some cars better than others. This obviously isn't gonna be one of those for Ferrari.


I hope they are. I dont want Abu Dhabi to become a bogey track.



#3964 topical

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:42

The biggest problem is if Vettel keeps P.3 Webber will let him past at the start then hold up the rest. An easy 2nd place for Vettel and more points lost. Our only hope is a penalty for him, I suppose it might be hours till we find out.

#3965 Ferrari2183

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:42

At least top speed is good on the Ferrari. they're gonna need it.

Dispatch Button and Kimi quickly, ideally at the start, then get webber down the back straight.

Hamilton has to stay ahead after first corner, and we have still to see whether Vettel will keep his position.



I just see some folks that can recognise he is a human being and we can all make mistakes sometimes. His first lap was fine as a banker, but IMO he could have done better on his second run. That was the issue, as his first run was fine as he was still faster than Maldonado, Button and Raikkonen.

It was the 1:41.9 (?) he did in his second attempt that wasn't great.

Pretty much every other car found 3 tenths, so I don't see why Ferrari couldn't.

The track was improving all the time and Alonso was one of the last to cross the line. Massa, improved on his Q2 time despite locking up and having a power slide.

I'm just getting tired of Ferrari taking a beating here. They hit a brick wall with updates for some time but it is time to admit that Alonso hasn't been stellar in qualifying for the last 2 races.

#3966 decoder

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:42

Pretty much every other car found 3 tenths, so I don't see why Ferrari couldn't.



Probably because he hits the limit right away. How much time did Hamilton find on his second run?

#3967 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:42

It was the 1:41.9 (?) he did in his second attempt that wasn't great.


It was a 41.6

When Alonso does a 41.5 41.5 and 41.6 I tend to believe there wasn't loads more in it. Possibly a few tenths but I wouldn't say it's certain the three tenths needed to move up the grid were there. It's not fair to say Alonso didn't deliver in Q3 just because he delivered in Q2.

Edited by RockyRaccoon68, 03 November 2012 - 14:43.


#3968 Leonsito

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:44

I think the Ferrari updates in the last two races have been great, I think Alonso can win tomorrow, he has the best race pace imo.

#3969 revlec

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:44

The biggest problem is if Vettel keeps P.3 Webber will let him past at the start then hold up the rest. An easy 2nd place for Vettel and more points lost. Our only hope is a penalty for him, I suppose it might be hours till we find out.


No need to ask for WEB collaboration, because he usually starts like a truck driver.

#3970 Hanzo

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:45

I think everybody who has been saying that the championship is over have also said the only hope is bad luck for Vettel, so I dont see how it'd make anyone look foolish.


I am not saying there is no base to say that the championship is over.
I am saying that with more races to go and better qualys there was people in here saying it all day. If Vettel did not have to stop the car it would be the same. I was trying to be sarcastic, not offensive. Sorry if someone took it the wrong way


#3971 decoder

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:46

So Hamilton also did not improve on his second qualifying lap. I guess he under performed in qualifying as well then

#3972 HPT

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:49

Pastor will not be overtaken on the straights!


Pastor Maldonado
325.8

Felipe Massa
320.0

Fernando Alonso
319.7

Kimi Räikkönen
314.5

Lewis Hamilton
313.7

Jenson Button
313.5

Sebastian Vettel
311.4

Mark Webber
311.2


There could be a chance with a tow and DRS. They could also undercut.

#3973 Ferrari2183

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:49

So Hamilton also did not improve on his second qualifying lap. I guess he under performed in qualifying as well then

Yes he did in his final attempt. Because he had already gone quicker.

This is a straw man argument...



#3974 LethalIndustry

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:49

Hamilton aborted his 2nd run and Alonso set best personal sectors in S1 and S3, his S2 time was way off so he probably made a mistake.

#3975 Hanzo

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:56

So Hamilton also did not improve on his second qualifying lap. I guess he under performed in qualifying as well then


Marc Gene pointed out that Rosberg did his only try with new tyres early cause probably his team though the conditions of the track were getting worse.


Anyway I think it is pointless to discuss and make distintions between driver and team, we have a championship to win, and the first stop is that Vettel penalty. Let`s see.


#3976 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:56

Alonso's best sectors give him a 41.446, if we give him Massa's middle sector that improves to a theoretical Ferrari best of 41.363

If we're going to do that for Ferrari though we have to do it for the other teams, 41.171 is Kimi's theoretical best and 41.15 is the theoretical Lotus best combining Kimi and Grosjeans best sectors.

There is no evidence looking at the numbers that the Ferrari had the raw pace to beat the cars in front, even if Alonso strung Ferrari's PB sectors into one lap. The theoretical best lap times aren't enough to beat the times the other cars achieved, never mind their theoretical "perfect laps".

Edited by RockyRaccoon68, 03 November 2012 - 14:58.


#3977 BestCarWins

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:58

Hamilton aborted his 2nd run and Alonso set best personal sectors in S1 and S3, his S2 time was way off so he probably made a mistake.


Possibly but that personal best in sector 3 is worth highlighting - it was a 40.9 whereas Kimi did a 40.5 (they were similar pace up till s3). This simply suggests that the car isn't good in all those slower tricky corners found in s3. Maybe Alonso did make an error but there is no real suggestion the pace was there - just because others improve does not always mean everyone else will as well. Massa was probably sloppy in S3 for the same reason.

#3978 kosmos

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:58

Hamilton aborted his 2nd run and Alonso set best personal sectors in S1 and S3, his S2 time was way off so he probably made a mistake.


The improvement was marginal, if you take his best sectors of qualy, you get 1:41.446, not enough for P6, even if he improved a little beyond that, hardly he was going to get P6 from Button.

#3979 Seanspeed

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:59

Alonso's best sectors give him a 41.446, if we give him Massa's middle sector that improves to a theoretical Ferrari best of 41.363

If we're going to do that for Ferrari though we have to do it for the other teams, 41.171 is Kimi's theoretical best and 41.15 is the theoretical Lotus best combining Kimi and Grosjeans best sectors.

There is no evidence looking at the numbers that the Ferrari had the raw pace to beat the cars in front, even if Alonso strung Ferrari's PB sectors into one lap. The theoretical best lap times aren't enough to beat the times the other cars achieved, never mind their "perfect laps".

Thanks for that. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

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#3980 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:01

Pastor will not be overtaken on the straights!


Pastor Maldonado
325.8

Felipe Massa
320.0

Fernando Alonso
319.7

Kimi Räikkönen
314.5

Lewis Hamilton
313.7

Jenson Button
313.5

Sebastian Vettel
311.4

Mark Webber
311.2


It's enough if he overtakes the RBRs


#3981 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:04

(...)
I just see some folks that can recognise he is a human being and we can all make mistakes sometimes. His first lap was fine as a banker, but IMO he could have done better on his second run. That was the issue, as his first run was fine as he was still faster than Maldonado, Button and Raikkonen.

It was the 1:41.9 (?) he did in his second attempt that wasn't great.

Pretty much every other car found 3 tenths, so I don't see why Ferrari couldn't.


Adam Cooper has this quote, I honestly can't remember:

Fernando Alonso was surprisingly upbeat after qualifying only seventh in Abu Dhabi, insisting that he had got the maximum out of the car today.

Alonso starts four places behind title rival Sebastian Vettel.

“It was a perfect qualifying for us, we did the maximum,” said Alonso. “We went through Q1 OK, through Q2 OK. Then I did 41.5 in Q2, 41.5s first attempt in Q3, 41.5s second attempt in Q3. That’s the limit, and I think we struck the maximum again.

“The car was good, we are seventh and ninth, the three laps were perfect. If there are people faster than us we need to see and we need to accept it. There is nothing we can do and we need to work hard for the next one.”

Regarding Vettel having a less than perfect day, he said: “Always these things help in terms of championship hopes, but it’s better if these things happen on Sunday not on Saturday only. There are still three important Sundays, there are 75 points to play, and hopefully we score 14 more than him.”



#3982 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:19

I think the updates worked, but as others have mentioned, this isn't the track to really see that. It's a very good circuit for MaCa & RBR, always had been. In current form I think the F2012 will go well in Austin. As for the race tomorrow, Fer can make a spot or two up at the start then use the usually good race pace to make up some more spots.
Maldonado being at the front should worry those guys up there, especially considering his "I will attack" comments. Very curious to see how the situation with Seb plays out. Fuel = 24th. New engine = 13th. Old engine = no penalty gearbox = 8th or he could get no penalty at all. We'll see.

#3983 topical

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:32

I think the updates worked, but as others have mentioned, this isn't the track to really see that.


Surely the updates were intended to improve Ferrari's weaknesses, which always show up at tracks like this. So if they are as far behind as ever then the updates have not worked, or the other teams have brought updates that cancel them out, which amounts to much the same thing. We need updates to bring Ferrari closer, not to maintain the same position.
The 4th row of the grid is not what anyone was anticipating from these updates.
Everything depends on the Vettel penalty now. Is there any indication how long till some news comes out? Might it be nighttime?

#3984 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:38

Surely the updates were intended to improve Ferrari's weaknesses, which always show up at tracks like this. So if they are as far behind as ever then the updates have not worked, or the other teams have brought updates that cancel them out, which amounts to much the same thing. We need updates to bring Ferrari closer, not to maintain the same position.
The 4th row of the grid is not what anyone was anticipating from these updates.
Everything depends on the Vettel penalty now. Is there any indication how long till some news comes out? Might it be nighttime?


Abu Dhabi & Austin are completely different tracks. It's quite possible these updates could put Ferrari very close in Austin. Performance is track specific, look at McLaren. They didn't really bring anything but are P1. The F2012 should in theory, go well in Austin.

RB & Renault just walked into Race Control. We'll know. Fairly soon. I don't foresee a penalty for Seb.

#3985 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:44

Abu Dhabi & Austin are completely different tracks. It's quite possible these updates could put Ferrari very close in Austin. Performance is track specific, look at McLaren. They didn't really bring anything but are P1. The F2012 should in theory, go well in Austin.

RB & Renault just walked into Race Control. We'll know. Fairly soon. I don't foresee a penalty for Seb.



I'm sure you'll agree that our pace in Austin will be pretty much irrelevant if Vettel scores big here? I don't foresee a penalty but we really really need him to get one.


#3986 topical

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:47

I'm sure you'll agree that our pace in Austin will be pretty much irrelevant if Vettel scores big here? I don't foresee a penalty but we really really need him to get one.


Perhaps no penalty for Vettel and Alonso getting his front wing knocked off by Maldonado in turn 1 is the best thing now just to put us out of our misery...And yes, if Vettel scores big here the pace in Austin is irrelevant. Of course people will start talking about 2007 again but it won't happen.

Edited by topical, 03 November 2012 - 15:52.


#3987 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:53

I'm sure you'll agree that our pace in Austin will be pretty much irrelevant if Vettel scores big here? I don't foresee a penalty but we really really need him to get one.


If he scores big it will be awful daunting. But anything can happen. It's not over until its over but if he scores big & Fernando doesn't obviously chances go down immensely.

#3988 boldhakka

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:58

People on here are way to sensitive to the order in which points are gained or lost. As Fernando says, there are 75 points to play for and he has to score 14 more than Seb.

#3989 Mc_Silver

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:00

I think tomorrow's race is very important for Alonso, he knows his chances are going to be reduced a lot if he finishes behind Vettel again so i am sure in the first few laps we will watch some great battles F2012 is pretty strong at the start of the race and Alonso knows this.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 03 November 2012 - 16:02.


#3990 Ravenak

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:11

Fernando's time doesn't matter, he's 3 tenths behind Kimi.

Had he gone faster, wouldn't have been enough.

#3991 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:13

Great shot of the newest F2012 Diffuser

Posted Image
Via F1/Sutton

#3992 Nahnever

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:13

So Hamilton also did not improve on his second qualifying lap. I guess he under performed in qualifying as well then

He backed out as he already had it.

#3993 topical

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:20

No penalty for Vettel so the task has just got even harder. Oh well. Maybe we'll get lucky and Seb's problem will recur tomorrow.

#3994 katmen

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:21

Scuderia Ferrari ‏@InsideFerrari
UAE - Fry: "The others have raised the bar. The updates were not enough" http://bit.ly/TnfeKF

#3995 kosmos

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:23

Fry:

Both Felipe and Fernando did the maximum they could: unfortunately they had already reached the limit in Q2, which explains why it’s not by chance that Fernando did practically the same time three times in a row, while the others raised the bar in Q3.


http://www.ferrari.c...gp-pat-fry.aspx

I guess some people here know better than the team.

#3996 currupipi

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:23

Scuderia Ferrari ‏@InsideFerrari
UAE - Fry: "The others have raised the bar. The updates were not enough" http://bit.ly/TnfeKF



really? what a surprise

#3997 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:24

No penalty for Vettel so the task has just got even harder. Oh well. Maybe we'll get lucky and Seb's problem will recur tomorrow.


There has been no official report. Humphrey doesn't know anything yet, neither does Kravitz. Everything else is just rumors.

#3998 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:24

Stefano Domenicali: "Obviously we are not happy, in fact we are very disappointed with this result. We were unable to give our drivers a car with which they could compete for the front rows of the grid, despite all our best efforts here at the track and back at the factory in Maranello. It's true that in the race we have almost always seen that the gap to the best is reduced, but we can't always hope for exceptional performances like the one Fernando produced last Sunday in India. However, it's crazy to see how things have changed in just a week, with the pecking order varying from track to track by half a second. But now there's no point crying over spilt milk: we will just roll up our sleeves and concentrate on preparing for tomorrow's race. I often say it: the points are handed out on Sunday and the sums will be done at the end of the season. We have a duty to do our utmost in every area and there can be absolutely no doubt about that."

Pat Fry: "All I can do is repeat what our boss has said: we are disappointed that we did not give our drivers a sufficiently competitive car. We had brought various updates here, some only fitted to Fernando's car, because we do not yet have enough of them for both. Unfortunately, the whole package did not work the way we had expected before coming here, at least relative to the progress that the other teams have made. Both Felipe and Fernando did the maximum they could: unfortunately they had already reached the limit in Q2, which explains why it's not by chance that Fernando did practically the same time three times in a row, while the others raised the bar in Q3. It's clear that the McLarens, especially Hamilton, seem out of reach this weekend, but all the same, we were hoping to start from higher up the grid. Now we must prepare as well as possible for the race. We know we can count on a good pace and on a top speed which will allow us to overtake. We will try and make up as many places as possible and to make the most of a slightly different grid order to the one we have seen in recent races."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103990

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 03 November 2012 - 16:24.


#3999 Petroltorque

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:24

You guys are in with a chance. All be it a small one. The problem is that you need other drivers to take points off the Red Bulls unfortunately that will Alonso as well.
On the bright side, provided neither Red Bull gets out front at the start, they are seroiusly vulnerable on the straight and Maldonado represents a sharped clawed cat thrown among the pigeons ( Vettel and Webber). That's the problem with Newey's car. It will only dominate if it runs in clear air.
On a slightly different note; was there a definitive answer as to why the F2012 has a pull rod suspension?

Edited by Petroltorque, 03 November 2012 - 16:30.


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#4000 Mc_Silver

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:24

Scuderia Ferrari ‏@InsideFerrari
UAE - Fry: "The others have raised the bar. The updates were not enough" http://bit.ly/TnfeKF


Well, Lewis said they did not bring any updates to this race. Maybe some small changes to the details make a big difference nowadays? Look at Maldonado for example.