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Schumacher's Jordan 191


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#1 MoebiusPT

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 15:03

So Eddie Jordan is selling some memorabilia, including a certain J191 used by Mr Schumacher.

http://www.mementoex...uct-p/ej100.htm

Now, I remmber reading in a F1 magazine, around 1998/1999 that Schumacher himself was trying to buy that specific car for his collection. Did he ever manage to get one? If so, did he use two cars in the 1991 Belgium GP and this is just one of them?

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#2 D-Type

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 15:23

If you read the description very carefully, I don't think it actually says this is the J191 driven by Schumacher.

#3 Duc-Man

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 15:42

Michael Schmacher's first F1 car...how you define it?
Is that the very chassis he drove in Spa or does that mean the type/any Jordan J191?

I remember reading Schumacher's Jordan was sold of and found it's way into the Interserie. They also had a picture of the car in the article. It still had the same paint job.

Might have been in an old rallye racing magazine. I have a look if I find it.
Edited to add: Sorry I have to pass on this. the latest issue is 12/92 and I think that article was somewhere around 94/95.

Edited by Duc-Man, 07 September 2012 - 16:00.


#4 Thundersport

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 17:17

The Schumacher car was raced by James Taylor in Interserie and caught fire at the Österreichring sustaining fair bit of damage and I don't believe seen again. There is a 191 in BossGP this i'm lead to believe is the car Cosworth were given in lieu of payment for engines. The Donington car; when I saw this car it was minus it's steering wheel however this maybe because it had been kept back for safe keeping.

Edited by Thundersport, 07 September 2012 - 23:42.


#5 f1steveuk

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 17:28

Chassis 5 was the race chassis, which I thought Moreno had for a while?

#6 Thundersport

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 17:37

I have a vague memory that the Donington car was Chassis No 1

#7 Gabrci

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 19:14

I seem to remember an interview with Jordan (maybe in a recent F1 Racing?) in which he said there were two cars, one is in the Audi museum (?) and one is still owned by him (EJ).

#8 funformula

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 19:36

Didn´t Schumacher already own an Jordan 191?
I think there is one on display on Schumachers kart track, also some F1 Ferraris and Benettons from his collection.

#9 arttidesco

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 20:09

There is definitely one Jordan 191 on display at Donington, not sure which one or who it belongs to but it was there a couple of weeks ago.

#10 km1164

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 21:06

Gemtlemen let me give you some info
I hav enot had time to look up ho wmany cars where built but 5 seems to be the number plus 1 show car makes 6 exist

James Taylor raced 1 Jordan 191 in Interserie with Cossy DFR run by McNeil Engineering
Later the car was rebuilt by Bob Salisbury with Cossy HB engine
the car was sold to Mr S himself circa 2002 and i sat in the car n Fred Goddards workshop before it went to the Fatherland
I did not make a note of the chassis number but was VERY aware that my firm pert ass could not drive the car and you ideally had to be an oompah loomph

There is 1 car in Germany in a museum that is a crashed car with hole in the main tub floor and no plate empty car

The Cosworth bad debt car is in france and was at Donington BOSS race last year

Car in Donington muesuam was part of EJ car collection beofr ehe sold off al lthe cars
this car is owned by a man who 4 years ago ran an advert for the Jordan 2 x benneton Ferrari F1 cars all as a Schumi collection but all te hcars where owned by different people
I think the price tag was £2 mill and never sold

1 car is in a museum in Asia and IMHO that is the car shown here empty gearbox scabby and less engine
be aware there are 2 Jordans for sale here

1 is with engine and in the Uk 1 is less motor gearbox internals and in asia I have stood next to it
alsai the LH March cars are show cars not real race cars I have stood next to them also
so i have accounted so far for 4 cars
I think another car is in another german museum like sinesheim i need to check later so 1 car is AWOL maybe with Moreno as mentioned earlier?


#11 Thundersport

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 23:52

Gemtlemen let me give you some info
I hav enot had time to look up ho wmany cars where built but 5 seems to be the number plus 1 show car makes 6 exist

James Taylor raced 1 Jordan 191 in Interserie with Cossy DFR run by McNeil Engineering
Later the car was rebuilt by Bob Salisbury with Cossy HB engine
the car was sold to Mr S himself circa 2002 and i sat in the car n Fred Goddards workshop before it went to the Fatherland
I did not make a note of the chassis number but was VERY aware that my firm pert ass could not drive the car and you ideally had to be an oompah loomph

There is 1 car in Germany in a museum that is a crashed car with hole in the main tub floor and no plate empty car

The Cosworth bad debt car is in france and was at Donington BOSS race last year

Car in Donington muesuam was part of EJ car collection beofr ehe sold off al lthe cars
this car is owned by a man who 4 years ago ran an advert for the Jordan 2 x benneton Ferrari F1 cars all as a Schumi collection but all te hcars where owned by different people
I think the price tag was £2 mill and never sold

1 car is in a museum in Asia and IMHO that is the car shown here empty gearbox scabby and less engine
be aware there are 2 Jordans for sale here

1 is with engine and in the Uk 1 is less motor gearbox internals and in asia I have stood next to it
alsai the LH March cars are show cars not real race cars I have stood next to them also
so i have accounted so far for 4 cars
I think another car is in another german museum like sinesheim i need to check later so 1 car is AWOL maybe with Moreno as mentioned earlier?

I assume the car with the holed tub car is the one that de Cesaris crashed at Bridge Corner Silverstone?

#12 TC3000

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 00:40

This is a photo of the car that run in the Interserie, not sure which Chassis# etc. it is/was
AFAIK, it won the race in Most in 1994 and crashed in 1996 (but maybe not "terminal"

http://www.racingspo...4-08-07-006.jpg

http://www.racingspo...-08-04-002a.jpg

#13 Lutz G

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 06:24


There is 1 car in Germany in a museum that is a crashed car with hole in the main tub floor and no plate empty car


This one?

Posted Image


(from 60 Years Formula 1 - at http://www.prototyp-hamburg.de/ - Hamburg, January 2011)

http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=5729986

#14 f1steveuk

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:29

This one?

Posted Image


(from 60 Years Formula 1 - at http://www.prototyp-hamburg.de/ - Hamburg, January 2011)

http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=5729986



Well, it's the right colour.............................

#15 Wouter Melissen

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:01

The one that raced in the BOSS recently was also at Goodwood this year. It had the tag 191/06. Does anybody of you know the races and results of that particular car?

#16 Peter Morley

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:36

The Yamaha museum has the 191Y in it - car built with Yamaha engine as a prototype for the 1992 season.

Jean Blaton used to have a 191 (with Gachot's name on it), is that not the car that is now in France?

I heard that EJ still has a 191.

#17 Duc-Man

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:52

The one that raced in the BOSS recently was also at Goodwood this year. It had the tag 191/06. Does anybody of you know the races and results of that particular car?


I was about to say the same. It was also in Hockenheim in april this year.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by Duc-Man, 08 September 2012 - 10:04.


#18 Gary C

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 10:44

I love it. EJ is selling the car that MSC made his Grand Prix debut in............fine. But how far did he actually race it? 4 or was it 5 yards?? LOL.

#19 Wouter Melissen

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 10:45

Jean Blaton used to have a 191 (with Gachot's name on it), is that not the car that is now in France?


Silly me. I actually had the Artcurial catalog on my desk with the description of that car. It was indeed chassis 06, used by Andrea de Cesaris to finish fourth in Canada and fifth in Germany. It was offered at auction in February, 2005 without an engine.

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#20 Duc-Man

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 14:29

Silly me. I actually had the Artcurial catalog on my desk with the description of that car. It was indeed chassis 06, used by Andrea de Cesaris to finish fourth in Canada and fifth in Germany. It was offered at auction in February, 2005 without an engine.

It surely had an engine in Hockenheim last year. It just wouldn't work that day. :eek:

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#21 funformula

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 17:28

Gemtlemen let me give you some info
I hav enot had time to look up ho wmany cars where built but 5 seems to be the number plus 1 show car makes 6 exist

There is 1 car in Germany in a museum that is a crashed car with hole in the main tub floor and no plate empty car

I think another car is in another german museum like sinesheim i need to check later so 1 car is AWOL maybe with Moreno as mentioned earlier?


So probably three cars in Germany?

One in Hamburg Prototype Museum
One in Shueys kart track
One in Sinsheim Museum (this one has wrong rear wheels, they are too small)

#22 Thundersport

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 18:25

So we know where 5 cars are then;
3 in Germany
1 With Didier Sirgue
1 With EJ

Plus 1 poss with Moreno?

#23 f1steveuk

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 19:47

So we know where 5 cars are then;
3 in Germany
1 With Didier Sirgue
1 With EJ

Plus 1 poss with Moreno?


I have no evidence Moreno kept chassis 5 for long, in fact I think he wanted a car, and someone realised the significance of the chassis he had been sold, and swapped it for another one, though Roberto did race chassis 5. I am now wracking my brains as to who it was told me this!

#24 Peter Morley

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 23:35

Sinsheim's website suggests they still have a Jordan 191 on show.
http://sinsheim.tech...n/en/jordan-191

I've just found a note that says the car in Hamburg's Prototyp museum is no. 5

I understand there is at least 1 show car built up on an unused tub that was sold when Jordan had a clear out.

Edited by Peter Morley, 08 September 2012 - 23:49.


#25 km1164

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 08:05

Sinsheim's website suggests they still have a Jordan 191 on show.
http://sinsheim.tech...n/en/jordan-191

I've just found a note that says the car in Hamburg's Prototyp museum is no. 5

I understand there is at least 1 show car built up on an unused tub that was sold when Jordan had a clear out.

when Jordan had a clear out there was 1x 191 Jordan in bits with a severely damaged tub that had a hole cut out of the floor this car ended up in Germany
there was 1 x 192 tub and parts and many gear cases wishbones etc and after 16 years and been through 5 owners the car was never assembled as there was not a car set in the pile of parts
You have forgotten the 191 in Asia



#26 MODE

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 20:51

Silly me. I actually had the Artcurial catalog on my desk with the description of that car. It was indeed chassis 06, used by Andrea de Cesaris to finish fourth in Canada and fifth in Germany. It was offered at auction in February, 2005 without an engine.


And the N° of chassis for this one is no so clear according to a talk I had with D.Sirgue at Hockenheim last year.






#27 Peter Morley

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:44

I've just checked with Roger Cowman who around 1997 bought all the Jordan spares and at the time went through all the chassis histories with Ian Phillips.
The spares included a bare 191 chassis with a hole in the tub and no hard spots, that was built as a show car from the spares - the only major item that wasn't there was a nose for which they took a mould from James Taylor's car.
That show car was sold to Herbert Schnell in Germany and is apparently in a German museum (Prototyp in Hamburg or Sinsheim?)
The rest of the Jordan spares were distributed amongst various Jordan owners.

The other cars are:

191-1: Still owned by Eddie Jordan and on display at Donington.
191-2: Written off very early on.
191-3: Damaged in the British Grand Prix, seems to have been rebuilt as a show car and sold to Japan and is now being offered for sale.
191-4: James Taylor's Interserie car, sold to Schumacher in 2002 - probably now on loan from Schumacher to a German museum.
191-5: Schumacher debut car, taken by VW/Cosworth in lieu of bad debts, disappeared from Cosworth. Apparently sold later to Roberto Moreno/USA.
191-6: Owned by Jean Blaton, auctioned in 2005, now with Didier Sirgue
191-7: The 191Y used by Yamaha for engine installation and now in their museum.

I think there might only be two in Germany:
One of the German museum cars is the show car with a hole in the chassis - which museum has that one?
Does Schumacher definitely have 191-4 at the Go-Kart track or has he lent it to the other German museum?
Which leaves the question of where is 191-5?


#28 Duc-Man

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 12:00

It looks like there is one car each in the museums in Sinzheim and Hamburg. And both of them seem to wear the number 32 and the name Schumacher on them.
I found a photo of the car in Hamburg on flickr with a sign in front of it that says something along the lines of: 'with this car debuted Michael Schumacher...'

I've just send both museums an e-mail asking for the Chassis number.

#29 scags

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 15:37

both of them seem to wear the number 32 and the name Schumacher on them.

Boy, that's a surprise!

#30 D-Type

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 15:54

both of them seem to wear the number 32 and the name Schumacher on them.

Boy, that's a surprise!

Nothing new there. Half the cars in the Indianapolis museum aren't the actual winning cars. When a Mini won the Monte Carlo Rally, all the team cars plus the spares were all painted up as the winning car and circulated around the UK dealers.

It's only when someone tries to sell the wrong car as something it isn't (orange McLarens etc!) that it becomes a problem

#31 funformula

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 17:59

I've just checked with Roger Cowman who around 1997 bought all the Jordan spares and at the time went through all the chassis histories with Ian Phillips.
The spares included a bare 191 chassis with a hole in the tub and no hard spots, that was built as a show car from the spares - the only major item that wasn't there was a nose for which they took a mould from James Taylor's car.
That show car was sold to Herbert Schnell in Germany and is apparently in a German museum (Prototyp in Hamburg or Sinsheim?)
The rest of the Jordan spares were distributed amongst various Jordan owners.

The other cars are:

191-1: Still owned by Eddie Jordan and on display at Donington.
191-2: Written off very early on.
191-3: Damaged in the British Grand Prix, seems to have been rebuilt as a show car and sold to Japan and is now being offered for sale.
191-4: James Taylor's Interserie car, sold to Schumacher in 2002 - probably now on loan from Schumacher to a German museum.
191-5: Schumacher debut car, taken by VW/Cosworth in lieu of bad debts, disappeared from Cosworth. Apparently sold later to Roberto Moreno/USA.
191-6: Owned by Jean Blaton, auctioned in 2005, now with Didier Sirgue
191-7: The 191Y used by Yamaha for engine installation and now in their museum.

I think there might only be two in Germany:
One of the German museum cars is the show car with a hole in the chassis - which museum has that one?
Does Schumacher definitely have 191-4 at the Go-Kart track or has he lent it to the other German museum?
Which leaves the question of where is 191-5?


It seems that the car that was at the Prototype Museum in Hamburg is not on permanent display there, so it may be the one from Schumacher or maybe the VW/Audi car.
The one in Sinsheim is not 100% correct so maybe its the car sold to Herbert Schnell (is this 191-2?)

#32 Peter Morley

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 22:28

It seems that the car that was at the Prototype Museum in Hamburg is not on permanent display there, so it may be the one from Schumacher or maybe the VW/Audi car.
The one in Sinsheim is not 100% correct so maybe its the car sold to Herbert Schnell (is this 191-2?)


That's what I had guessed e.g. Prototyp have the Schumacher car (191-4) and Sinsheim the show car, that still leaves 191-5 (VW/Audi/Cosworth car) unaccounted for.

The show car sold to Herbert is not 191-2, it was built on a chassis that had never been painted and in fact could never be raced because it didn't have the hard spots (e.g. metal mountings incorporated into the carbon moulding) for suspension and engine mounts etc. as well as the large hole in the floor. Maybe it was the first tub out of the moulds and they left out the floor to verify some construction details?

#33 km1164

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 22:56

That's what I had guessed e.g. Prototyp have the Schumacher car (191-4) and Sinsheim the show car, that still leaves 191-5 (VW/Audi/Cosworth car) unaccounted for.

The show car sold to Herbert is not 191-2, it was built on a chassis that had never been painted and in fact could never be raced because it didn't have the hard spots (e.g. metal mountings incorporated into the carbon moulding) for suspension and engine mounts etc. as well as the large hole in the floor. Maybe it was the first tub out of the moulds and they left out the floor to verify some construction details?

Herr Schnell NEVER ever owned the jordan with hole in the floor car was bought by a german guy who had 2 0r 3 show cars to rent and he went bust in 99 2000 car was sold via auction in the faderland and i believe it went to the museum
the car Schumi bought will be in his karting centre or his private museum at home or out on loan to the other museum


#34 D-Type

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 23:04

Calm down!
All that people are doing is trying to establish the truth. I don't think anyone is being dogmatic about any of this. It's all a case of trying to put forward credible hypotheses that fit the known facts.

#35 Thundersport

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 23:41

I think it is with great respect to Mr Sirgue that his car is raced pretty hard from what i've seen first hand and it's still in de Cesaris numbers name etc. No daft pretend Schumacher connection this probarely makes his car the most transparent........

#36 Lutz G

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 06:40

It seems that the car that was at the Prototype Museum in Hamburg is not on permanent display there


Yes "60 Years Formula 1" was in 2011 at Prototyp. So no Jordan 191 in Hamburg anymore...

#37 Peter Morley

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 06:49

Herr Schnell NEVER ever owned the jordan with hole in the floor car was bought by a german guy who had 2 0r 3 show cars to rent and he went bust in 99 2000 car was sold via auction in the faderland and i believe it went to the museum
the car Schumi bought will be in his karting centre or his private museum at home or out on loan to the other museum


That's who Roger said bought it, I'll tell him he's got it wrong.
Apologies to Mr Schnell if being associated with it if it causes any offence.

If you agree that the car on show in Hamburg was Cobblers where does that leave 191-5?

#38 funformula

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:22

That's who Roger said bought it, I'll tell him he's got it wrong.
Apologies to Mr Schnell if being associated with it if it causes any offence.

If you agree that the car on show in Hamburg was Cobblers where does that leave 191-5?


The Schumacher Jordan in his Kart-Centre is not identical with the one shown in the Prototype Museum last year (different livery, wings, mirrors etc.) so it seems that it could be indeed the VW/Audi car 191-5

#39 PAUL S

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 19:01

I remember seeing some photos of one in an Irish museum quite recently, I will have a dig around and see if I can find a link.

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#40 km1164

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 14:48

[quote name='PAUL S' post='5915810' date='Sep 11 2012, 20:01']I remember seeing some photos of one in an Irish museum quite recently, I will have a dig around and see if I can find a link
Jordan 192 in mondello museum owned by Dan


That's who Roger said bought it, I'll tell him he's got it wrong. 1 he is often wrong 2 Herr schnell NEVER bought the jordan 3 he cant remember what day of the week it is and he is quick to forget he owes me £50 and 3 pints of fine warm british beer

also spoken with the asian owner of chassis 3 for a price- i then had a good laugh where do these people get the prices form!!
car is empty gearbox car and the parts grow on trees needs major rebuild fuel cell etc let alone £70k worth of HB fitted new loom made etc and you need
to be 5 ft 7 tall and sub 78 kg to fit the car

Edited by km1164, 13 September 2012 - 14:50.


#41 rbm

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 17:18

Yes "60 Years Formula 1" was in 2011 at Prototyp. So no Jordan 191 in Hamburg anymore...


Was still in Hamburg when we called in on the way back from Knutstorp to look at the three 500s (in the protype museum) in July (2012)

Edited by rbm, 14 September 2012 - 07:21.


#42 funformula

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 18:20

That's who Roger said bought it, I'll tell him he's got it wrong. 1 he is often wrong 2 Herr schnell NEVER bought the jordan 3 he cant remember what day of the week it is and he is quick to forget he owes me £50 and 3 pints of fine warm british beer


Urrrghh.... fine warm british beer?
Don´t tell me you put the good German beer I´d send to you in the oven instead of the fridge :eek:




#43 LittleChris

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 21:02

Urrrghh.... fine warm british beer?
Don´t tell me you put the good German beer I´d send to you in the oven instead of the fridge :eek:


Fine british beer or in fact ale of most origin shouldn't be served warm but at room temperature unlike lager ( regardless of country or origin ) which should be chilled then tipped down the sink :p


#44 PAUL S

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 08:35

No not that one Kevan, the one I saw was in the 7 up colours and alongside a couple of F3000s. It was some obscure little museum, I have had a hunt around but cannot find the thread where I saw the pics.

Possibly it was the Eddie Jordan one and since relocated to Donnington.

Edited by PAUL S, 14 September 2012 - 08:36.


#45 Peter Morley

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:02

Was still in Hamburg when we called in on the way back from Knutstorp to look at the three 500s (in the protype museum) in July (2012)


Apparently it is on permanent loan to the museum and they won't disclose which one it is or who owns it.

#46 km1164

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 13:03

1 Fine british beer is kept in my house at room temperature but it is not kept for long!
the free german lager ( even though you call it Bier) was put into the fridge and has run out so please advise when the lorry is coming with more

2 Not heard of any other Irish museum but it is highly likely it could be the EJ owned car out on loan to the mother land however if it had some F3000 cars there it is probably a private museum more than public museum as the F3000 cars will be the local Libre racers gathered to create a collection aprox 5 cars out there
also the 194 is in ireland of Sarah K that raced in Boss 15 years ago

#47 Lutz G

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 19:14

Apparently it is on permanent loan to the museum and they won't disclose which one it is or who owns it.


Ok - thx for the correction


#48 Duc-Man

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 13:03

Apparently it is on permanent loan to the museum and they won't disclose which one it is or who owns it.


From the photos I've seen from the Prototyp museum they dont have any fences around the exibits. It would be easy to look into the cockpit for the chassis number. It should be on the left side under the dashboard. At least that is where 191-06 has it.

Any TNFer in Hamburg that could be asked to check?

#49 Thundersport

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 17:43

From the photos I've seen from the Prototyp museum they dont have any fences around the exibits. It would be easy to look into the cockpit for the chassis number. It should be on the left side under the dashboard. At least that is where 191-06 has it.

Any TNFer in Hamburg that could be asked to check?


IF it is there of course..........

#50 km1164

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 21:38

IF it is there of course..........

Oh yea of little faith
or is that just bare faced cynicism?