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Schumacher's Jordan 191


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#51 Thundersport

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 19:09

The "Senna" Toleman at Donington springs to mind...........

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#52 Duc-Man

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 14:19

I finally got a response from the museum in Sinzheim:
The car is there on loan and the number is EJ 191/1-20.

:confused:


#53 f1steveuk

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 15:00

1-20.

:confused:



That's quite a range.........................................

#54 funformula

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 17:56

I finally got a response from the museum in Sinzheim:
The car is there on loan and the number is EJ 191/1-20.

:confused:


???
I´m racing in Hockenheim next weekend and Sinsheim is on my way, so I may have a quick visit in the museum to check the chassis number if this is possible.
I will also check if this car has the hole in the bottom of the tub.

#55 Peter Morley

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 21:58

From the photos I've seen from the Prototyp museum they dont have any fences around the exibits. It would be easy to look into the cockpit for the chassis number. It should be on the left side under the dashboard. At least that is where 191-06 has it.

Any TNFer in Hamburg that could be asked to check?


I did check how far Hamburg is from Brussels and decided 6+ hours each way and a fortune in fuel isn't worth it - but it is frustrating!


#56 Peter Morley

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 22:01

???
I´m racing in Hockenheim next weekend and Sinsheim is on my way, so I may have a quick visit in the museum to check the chassis number if this is possible.
I will also check if this car has the hole in the bottom of the tub.


Apparently the museum is well worth a visit anyway (I've got the guide book and the museum is huge, full of all sorts of amazing stuff) and if you did get a chance to investigate and even photograph the chassis plate that will clear that up for sure.

Just need to find someone passing through Hamburg now!

#57 funformula

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:53

Apparently the museum is well worth a visit anyway (I've got the guide book and the museum is huge, full of all sorts of amazing stuff) and if you did get a chance to investigate and even photograph the chassis plate that will clear that up for sure.

Just need to find someone passing through Hamburg now!


The museum is indeed worth a visit and you can easily spend the whole day there.
But I don´t have that much time, only a few minutes. The Jordan is standing near to the entrance, so I hope to manage to get into the museum without paying for my "splash and dash" visit.

#58 Youichi

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 13:06

From the photos I've seen from the Prototyp museum they dont have any fences around the exibits. It would be easy to look into the cockpit for the chassis number. It should be on the left side under the dashboard. At least that is where 191-06 has it.

Any TNFer in Hamburg that could be asked to check?


I was in Hamburg in June for a conference, and visited the Museum.

Upon seeing the Jordan I wondered if it was *really* the one driven in Spa by Michael, so I took a photo of the chassis number intending to ask about it on here.

The number was 191-05, I will post the picture when I get home.

Also they have Vettel's first F1 car, I took a photo of it's chassis plate as well, but I don't recall the number off hand.

EDIT:-

The car in question :-
Posted Image
jordan_191 by YouichiHophop, on Flickr

The chassis plate :-
Posted Image
jordan_191_chassis_plate by YouichiHophop, on Flickr

The Vetel BMW was chassis number F107-06


Edited by Youichi, 18 September 2012 - 18:36.


#59 Duc-Man

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 16:00

???
I´m racing in Hockenheim next weekend and Sinsheim is on my way, so I may have a quick visit in the museum to check the chassis number if this is possible.
I will also check if this car has the hole in the bottom of the tub.


The exibits in Sinzheim are blocked off pretty widely. Which is understadable if you look at it from the point that people 'take souvenirs' with them and you got lots of school classes coming through as well. So you can't just walk up and look in. If you ask nicely at the entry somebody might ger permission and somebodycomes with you across the 'fence'.


I was in Hamburg in June for a conference, and visited the Museum.

Upon seeing the Jordan I wondered if it was *really* the one driven in Spa by Michael, so I took a photo of the chassis number intending to ask about it on here.

The number was 191-05, I will post the picture when I get home.


I knew some response like this was coming. :up: :up: :up:

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#60 Hamish Robson

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 16:35

Slightly OT - Sinsheim is mind-boggling. Visited there in the late 90s and spent a happy morning wandering. Came out agreeing with the friend I was with that it was simply fantastic and worth every penny, then saw the sign saying "To Hall 2". Incredible.

Edited by Hamish Robson, 18 September 2012 - 16:35.


#61 funformula

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 17:12

The other cars are:

191-1: Still owned by Eddie Jordan and on display at Donington.
191-2: Written off very early on.
191-3: Damaged in the British Grand Prix, seems to have been rebuilt as a show car and sold to Japan and is now being offered for sale.
191-4: James Taylor's Interserie car, sold to Schumacher in 2002 - probably now on loan from Schumacher to a German museum.
191-5: Schumacher debut car, taken by VW/Cosworth in lieu of bad debts, disappeared from Cosworth. Apparently sold later to Roberto Moreno/USA.
191-6: Owned by Jean Blaton, auctioned in 2005, now with Didier Sirgue
191-7: The 191Y used by Yamaha for engine installation and now in their museum.


It seems that Peters list is correct, so the Sinsheim car might have no chassis plate because it´s the mock up built into a show car.
191-01 now up for auction
191-02 written off
191-03 in Asia as km1164 told us
191-04 in Schumachers Kart Centre
191-05 in Hamburg Prototype Museum
191-06 owned by Didier Sirgue
191-07 Yamaha Museum
191-"1-20" mock up show car in Sinsheim Museum

#62 Peter Morley

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 22:42

It seems that Peters list is correct, so the Sinsheim car might have no chassis plate because it´s the mock up built into a show car.
191-01 now up for auction
191-02 written off
191-03 in Asia as km1164 told us
191-04 in Schumachers Kart Centre
191-05 in Hamburg Prototype Museum
191-06 owned by Didier Sirgue
191-07 Yamaha Museum
191-"1-20" mock up show car in Sinsheim Museum


Is 191-1 up for auction?
If it is I can't see it making anything like what Eddie has been looking for, F1 cars never sell well at auction.

I just came across a listing for the instrument panel from 191-5 in a Bonhams auction:
http://www.artfact.c...-1-c-ouxuqd79ww
The description says that it was the Schumacher debut car, which everyone except for Eddie agrees with!

Now the only confusion seems to be which car Memento were offering - the photos were clearly of 191-3 while the blurb was about Eddie's own stuff = 191-1!

Peter
p.s. Thank you so much Youichi your pictures are perfect.

#63 funformula

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:12

Is 191-1 up for auction?
If it is I can't see it making anything like what Eddie has been looking for, F1 cars never sell well at auction.

I just came across a listing for the instrument panel from 191-5 in a Bonhams auction:
http://www.artfact.c...-1-c-ouxuqd79ww
The description says that it was the Schumacher debut car, which everyone except for Eddie agrees with!

Now the only confusion seems to be which car Memento were offering - the photos were clearly of 191-3 while the blurb was about Eddie's own stuff = 191-1!

Peter
p.s. Thank you so much Youichi your pictures are perfect.


Apologize for being slightly incorrect, 191-01 is not for auction but for sale.

OT here but I had a look on Memento website. Besides the Jordan they are offering two Leyton House March F1 cars but... what happened to these monocoques???
Seems that the monocoques had been repaired with glassfibre rather than carbon fibre in a rude way.

Edited by funformula, 19 September 2012 - 09:31.


#64 MODE

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:14

To add photos to this topic, just finished a page on the 191, chassis N° 6 :

http://www.gurneyfla.../jordan191.html



#65 arttidesco

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 16:25

To add photos to this topic, just finished a page on the 191, chassis N° 6 :

http://www.gurneyfla.../jordan191.html


:clap: :up:

#66 funformula

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 21:42

Apparently the museum is well worth a visit anyway (I've got the guide book and the museum is huge, full of all sorts of amazing stuff) and if you did get a chance to investigate and even photograph the chassis plate that will clear that up for sure.

Just need to find someone passing through Hamburg now!


The Sinsheim Museum Manager was very cooperative and helpful. I got the chance to check the Jordan 191 and can confirm that it´s the mock up chassis with once had the hole in the floor.
It´s chassis number is indeed "1-20" but the chassis plate is only a sheet of aluminium without Jordan logo.

https://www.dropbox.......2010 038.jpg
https://www.dropbox.......2010 036.jpg
https://www.dropbox.......2010 034.jpg
https://www.dropbox.......2010 033.jpg

Edited by funformula, 24 September 2012 - 17:04.


#67 alfa1

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 19:58

It´s chassis number is indeed "1-20" but the chassis plate is only a sheet of aluminium without Jordan logo.



I was in the Sinsheim museum myself last week (before I read this thread).
As other people have said,its a great museum to visit for all sorts of different reasons. Its also true that many cars on display in museums are not the actual race cars they pretend to be.
As another example, Sinsheim have a Williams FW18 said to be Damon Hills car, but the chassis plate (visible with a telescopic lens from a walkway above it) is no better than the simple plate like the one on the Jordan.


Posted Image






#68 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 07:45

I was in the Sinsheim museum myself last week (before I read this thread).
As other people have said,its a great museum to visit for all sorts of different reasons. Its also true that many cars on display in museums are not the actual race cars they pretend to be.
As another example, Sinsheim have a Williams FW18 said to be Damon Hills car, but the chassis plate (visible with a telescopic lens from a walkway above it) is no better than the simple plate like the one on the Jordan.


Posted Image


The Williams chassis plate should look like this -

Posted Image
Williams Chassis Plate by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

I can only guess that this is a showcar. The wheel does look similar to a hill wheel although I've not seen a photo with a toggle switch on the RHS, typically there were 3 push buttons across the top.

Edited by Patrick Morgan, 27 September 2012 - 07:47.


#69 MODE

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:04

And talking about the FW18, I read N°5 on the plate that Patrick is showing, chassis N° 1 (3 wins with D.Hill) is also in private hands ( 3 wins with D.Hill), running with the Renault engine.


Edited by MODE, 27 September 2012 - 11:05.


#70 examateur racer

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:50

First of all I always rated the Jordan 191 as the most prettiest F1 car ever, I just wished I had bought one when I could have!

A point I want to make is that you can only rely on the chassis plate if you picked the car/tub up directly from the factory, F1 cars cycled through individuals and 2nd hand F1 dealers can have a tendency to either invent a plate or swap it with a number that will yield a better price.

Even if you come up with photographs of plates in specific places (like museums etc) I'm not sure how much you can rely on it?

#71 Peter Morley

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 14:38

First of all I always rated the Jordan 191 as the most prettiest F1 car ever, I just wished I had bought one when I could have!

A point I want to make is that you can only rely on the chassis plate if you picked the car/tub up directly from the factory, F1 cars cycled through individuals and 2nd hand F1 dealers can have a tendency to either invent a plate or swap it with a number that will yield a better price.

Even if you come up with photographs of plates in specific places (like museums etc) I'm not sure how much you can rely on it?


Do you know which one you could have bought?

What you say is true of a lot of racecars but Williams have sold very few of their more recent cars - the ones that were going to be auctioned of but were bought by Aaron Hsu were well documented and there aren't many others that have escaped and certainly very few have passed through many hand since being sold and Williams don't seem to have sold many bare chassis which could be hard to identify.

Similarly with the Jordan 191s - apparently chassis 5 escaped when the bailifs took it (at random apparently e.g. they just took the one nearest the door) the others were bought direct and haven't been through many hands either.

And since the teams have become wealthier/customs carnets are required less etc. there has been less swapping of chassis plates by the teams themselves so it is reasonably likely that most of these cars have their correct chassis plates.



#72 Wouter Melissen

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 14:19

Here is our 18-shot gallery and article on the Jordan 191, featuring chassis 06: Jordan 191 Ford

#73 Geza Sury

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:02

Fascinating topic!

I have an idea: is it possible that the 191-"1-20" mock-up car was built from the written off 191-02 chassis?

BTW who is the current owner of 191-03 in Asia?

Edited by Geza Sury, 02 October 2012 - 18:44.


#74 Peter Morley

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 13:35

Fascinating topic!

I have an idea: is it possible that the 191-"1-20" mock-up car was built from the written off 191-02 chassis?

BTW who is the current owner of 191-03 is Asia?


No, the mock up chassis was built with a hole in the floor and didn't have the hard spots in the tub for the suspension, engine etc mounts, plus it had never been painted.

It would be nice to know who owns 191-03 but I suspect km1164 isn't going to share that information!

#75 Youichi

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 12:26

It seems that Eddie has put the 191-01 up for auction again.

 

http://www.carsinter...rix-collection/

 

A rather carefully crafted piece of information, which if read quickly implies this is the actual chassis driven by MS at Spa, but upon a careful examination doesn't actually say it.



#76 Peter Morley

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 18:58

The section about this collection has never before been offered for sale before is also rather carefully crafted - some of the larger items have certainly been offered for sale before.

I wonder how much of Eddie's new yacht this is expected to finance?



#77 km1164

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 23:05

The car in asia is incomplete car sits in a museum Momentos is flying kite on selling it

 

The car EJ has  to sell is obviously the last car he retained from his collection of cars he sold off 5 years ago

he can insinuate all he likes about it being the Spa MS car you can't beat the facts as we know them and who would you believe EJ or everyone else?

 

As i said all along the car in German museum is the show car tub with hole in the floor why do people not listen to what i say ! :confused:



#78 mfd

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 00:02

This is a bit tongue in cheek, but I heard all the 191 were sold as the MS car! Eventually someone got the real one, but EJ is remarkable for believing what he wants to & shouts it loud from the rooftops as if to emphasise his pov. If you refer to the high court Judge in the Vodaphone case, not everyone believes him though!

 

He has sold the big Oyster yacht "Lush" though. He rather pissed off the organisers of the round the World event by carrying Red Bull branding across the bows, when the regulations specified none allowed. His argument was that his entry was part of his charity raising...