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Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander d'Italia 2012 - Race day


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#851 Jimisgod

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:26

Perez was just a beneficiary of a car which excels in these conditions and new tyres for both stints. He did take his chances very well though and was supreme in attacking but don't be fooled by this one performance, Kobayashi has been keeping him honest all season.


:rolleyes: :rotfl:

Don't be fooled by 3 performances, you mean.

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#852 muramasa

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:43

:rolleyes: :rotfl:

Don't be fooled by 3 performances, you mean.

Malaysia, Perez was the only driver with that strategy.
Canada, Perez and Kimi was the only drivers with the better side of the strategy.
Monza, Perez was the only driver with that strategy among drivers who started from decent position and finished in good position.

Not saying this to dismiss Perez performance, he's getting what he deserves, but to say that Kamui NEVER had such luck so far and he's not getting what he deserves.

There are many factors that hindered Kamui at Malaysia and Canada, and even in the races he did good, he had quite a few bad lucks. Pretty much all his poor performance can be explained and proved that it was down to issues and bad luck (strategy, mechanical issues etc), not him. It will be very long if I write them all. But media and journalists simply dont report anything about what was actually happening to Kamui and only look at result. Even the likes of UK commentators let alone some respectable posters here completely miss it.

I feel pity for Kamui, hopefully he'll soon have a race in which everything goes not against him and luck is by his side.


#853 prty

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:43

Maths not your strong point?


He extended the lead he had after last week, didn't he?


#854 HPT

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:47

Maths not your strong point?


No need to be so sarcastic. He said he predicted after last week that Alonso would increase his WDC lead, and he is absolutely right. After last week Alonso had a 24-point margin over 2nd and now he has 37. You simply misunderstood him.

#855 Schumacher7

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:48

Maths not your strong point?

It's not yours by the look of it, he was right in what he said.

#856 Creepy

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:48

He extended the lead he had after last week, didn't he?


Yes. Indeed it's Clatter who needs to improve at maths.


After SPA Alonso was 24 points ahead of the 2nd ranked driver in the WDC table (back then it was Vettel). Alonso was 164 and Vettel 140.

Now Alonso is 37 points ahead of the 2nd ranked driver in the WDC table (now, Hamilton). Alonso is 179 and Hamilton 142.

So indeed, Alonso extended the lead.

Edited by Creepy, 09 September 2012 - 16:50.


#857 Clatter

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:50

No need to be so sarcastic. He said he predicted after last week that Alonso would increase his WDC lead, and he is absolutely right. After last week Alonso had a 24-point margin over 2nd and now he has 37. You simply misunderstood him.


Fair enough. Think I just prefer that his lead over LH has been cut, and he is well within shooting distance.


#858 f1rookie

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:51


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#859 Anderis

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:53

Malaysia, Perez was the only driver with that strategy.
Canada, Perez and Kimi was the only drivers with the better side of the strategy.
Monza, Perez was the only driver with that strategy among drivers who started from decent position and finished in good position.

Not saying this to dismiss Perez performance, he's getting what he deserves, but to say that Kamui NEVER had such luck so far and he's not getting what he deserves.

There are many factors that hindered Kamui at Malaysia and Canada, and even in the races he did good, he had quite a few bad lucks. Pretty much all his poor performance can be explained and proved that it was down to issues and bad luck (strategy, mechanical issues etc), not him. It will be very long if I write them all. But media and journalists simply dont report anything about what was actually happening to Kamui and only look at result. Even the likes of UK commentators let alone some respectable posters here completely miss it.

I feel pity for Kamui, hopefully he'll soon have a race in which everything goes not against him and luck is by his side.

Perez is just more efficient than Kamui, no coincidence. He has scored almost twice as many points as Kamui and had his share of bad luck too. It's Perez who makes the strategy works. There were too many times that it has happened the same. If I would be a team boss, I would take Perez over Kobayashi on any occasion.

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#860 Jimisgod

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:53

I feel pity for Kamui, hopefully he'll soon have a race in which everything goes not against him and luck is by his side.


What went wrong today?

I think both Sauber drivers are head and shoulders above the other "young, fast" drivers. Maldonado and Grosjean can't pass for nuts, and Hulkenberg and Di Resta are pretty inconsistent and slower. Perez can pass like a pro. Kamui is known for that, too.


#861 Lada Lover

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:59

I missed most of the race but Alonso was more skill than luck today, nice save. And I thought Lewis would win wire to wire.

#862 Yellowmc

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 17:03

:rolleyes: :rotfl:

Don't be fooled by 3 performances, you mean.


....and what heroics has he been performing during the rest of the season?

My point was taking nothing away from Perez, he's been terrific when needed and when the cars been quick he has delivered. Rather, my point was to not dismiss the strength of his car which helps him to do this and the strategy calls which benefit him in comparison to his team mate. Today the strategy with the tyres helped him where as his team mate couldn't benefit as he outqualified him and as such, was compromised on strategy.

Sergio is going to win races and has what it takes to be a WDC, just don't overestimate what he's doing right now.

#863 Anderis

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 17:03

I think both Sauber drivers are head and shoulders above the other "young, fast" drivers. Maldonado and Grosjean can't pass for nuts, and Hulkenberg and Di Resta are pretty inconsistent and slower. Perez can pass like a pro. Kamui is known for that, too.

I can't agree. I would even say Hulkenberg and di Resta are more consistent than both Sauber's drivers. They're usually very close to each other, while at Sauber there is often one driver much quicker than other and that says a lot. Sauber's performances fluctuate much more than Force India's. And I think if you would put current Force India duo in Sauber this year, they would've scored more points than Perez and Kamui.



#864 Yellowmc

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 17:06

Can't really agree with that. Di Resta and Hulkenberg are solid but I don't see anything more in them. The Saubar pair, although inconsistent at times can really turn it on when needed and in my opinion are driving a more unbalanced car compared to the others.

#865 Obi Offiah

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 17:11

I can't agree. I would even say Hulkenberg and di Resta are more consistent than both Sauber's drivers. They're usually very close to each other, while at Sauber there is often one driver much quicker than other and that says a lot. Sauber's performances fluctuate much more than Force India's. And I think if you would put current Force India duo in Sauber this year, they would've scored more points than Perez and Kamui.

The Sauber car is very highly rated by many people. Peter Sauber thought it was the best car today, but you could argue that he would say that.

#866 Lada Lover

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 17:13

It seems the podium interviews have jumped the shark.

#867 Anderis

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 17:19

Can't really agree with that. Di Resta and Hulkenberg are solid but I don't see anything more in them. The Saubar pair, although inconsistent at times can really turn it on when needed and in my opinion are driving a more unbalanced car compared to the others.

And that's the point. You can argue who is doing better job, but you admitted that they are at times inconsistent.

What I find the most wrong is saying that di Resta and Hulkenberg are inconsistent when comparing them with Perez and Kobayashi. I find Force India as a one of the most consistent pairing in the grid. You can say that they're not fast enough but I really struggle to find more consistent driver pairing in F1, while my impression about Sauber's drivers are that they're the most inconsistent in terms of pace.

Force India is a dull car and I think their drivers are doing more than OK with it. On the other hand, I would like to see established, proven driver at Sauber to find out if their inconsistent performances are more due to car or due to drivers. But seeing that one day one of Sauber's drivers qualifies 5 or so positions better than the other one, and next day the other one can finish 5 or 6 positions higher in the race make me think that neither of them got maximum out of the car. I remember Kamui's pace was highly inconsistent compared to his team-mate when he was paired with de la Rosa. It was quite a lot time ago, but he still shows the same next to Perez and this may be something more than just coincidence.

#868 muramasa

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 17:29

What went wrong today?

nothing. They had split strategy as Sauber always do in every race. At Monza Kamui had not so ideal strategy same as most drivers on the grid whereas Perez was the only driver with the ideal strategy, same as Canada and Malaysia. Seems soft>hard strategy wasnt best strategy at all, even 2 stoppers was better than Kamui, di Resta etc.


#869 Atreiu

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 17:34

It was nice to see dust being thrown up when cars went off the track, as opposed to the nothingness of asphalt run off.

#870 Anderis

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 17:35

They had split strategy as Sauber always do in every race. At Monza Kamui had not so ideal strategy same as most drivers on the grid whereas Perez was the only driver with the ideal strategy, same as Canada and Malaysia.

What I find funny is that in Canada Perez was much quicker than Kobayashi and Grosjean was much quicker than Raikkonen in the race. But actually Perez was on the same strategy with Raikkonen and Grosjean was on the same strategy with Kobayashi, so I find saying it was all about strategy not accurate enough.

#871 muramasa

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 17:35

Perez is just more efficient than Kamui, no coincidence. He has scored almost twice as many points as Kamui and had his share of bad luck too. It's Perez who makes the strategy works. There were too many times that it has happened the same. If I would be a team boss, I would take Perez over Kobayashi on any occasion.

Perez is amazing. I'm not contesting that point at all.

True that both had some bad luck, also they both made their share of mistakes each, but Perez had luck (luck that nothing went against him in races where he had better strategy) whereas Kamui NEVER had such luck that is a fact which pretty much everyone miss.

offhand

OZ
his rear wing flap was damaged at T1 of opening lap and was flipfloping for whole race

Malaysia
his rear damper was slowly failing from in the middle of FP3. Team could identify the problem only because he kept insisting sth was defo wrong with rear suspension for several hours after Quali.
In the race, he asked for wet tyres on lap 3 or so but team ordered him to stay out (eventually pitting lap 9 or so). When it was drying up, he asked for dry tyres earlier but again team ordered him to stay out. Eventually his brake failed and had to retire.

China
good quali. But during support race on sunday morning, a car put oil patch exactly on his starting position, which hindered his start apparently.

Spain
his Q2 best lap was set with right rear tyre (iirc) being sprayed with leaking oil from his car. Without which he wouldve started from better position and might have finished higher.

Monaco
taken off at St devote several sec after the start. Also, he insisted different tyre choice for Quali than team's recommendation. and it turns out that his choice seemed to be correct.

Canada
stuck behind Kimi and di Resta for long time at critical point of the race, which cost him 15sec at minimum. Plus team changed strategy from 2 stopper to 1 stopper in the middle of the race. SS>S 1 stopper was the strategy that was meant to fail in the first place. Plus, before the race, he insisted 1 stopper strongly, same as his teammate's, but the team denied it.

also the team gave slow 1st pitstop at Valencia, 1st corner incident at Spa, etc

Besides above, he had minor bad lucks here and there, like slow pitstop (like 8sec instead of 5), questioning strategic call (earlier than planned pitstop despite his good pace), all resulted in lost position and time at critical timing.

Also races like Barcelona and Germany, he had to stuck behind slower car for many laps despite having pace and good strategy. Kamui just is without luck, almost miracle-esque.



#872 Clatter

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 17:40

nothing. They had split strategy as Sauber always do in every race. At Monza Kamui had not so ideal strategy same as most drivers on the grid whereas Perez was the only driver with the ideal strategy, same as Canada and Malaysia. Seems soft>hard strategy wasnt best strategy at all, even 2 stoppers was better than Kamui, di Resta etc.


Surprised me that the cars still went in a straight line and didn't lose a great deal of speed when so far off the track though.

#873 Gagá Bueno

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 17:42

I thought this was one of Grosjean's best starts of the season.


:rotfl:


#874 muramasa

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 17:52

What I find funny is that in Canada Perez was much quicker than Kobayashi and Grosjean was much quicker than Raikkonen in the race. But actually Perez was on the same strategy with Raikkonen and Grosjean was on the same strategy with Kobayashi, so I find saying it was all about strategy not accurate enough.

in Canada, Grosjean was the only driver who somehow delivered with that option>prime 1 stopper strategy. All the other driver on that strategy fell off, including Alonso. And some made either planned or forced 2nd stops. Actually Kamui handled it quite well, despite forced to switch from option>prime 2 stopper to 1 stopper in the middle of the race (also note that, as i wrote above, Kamui strongly insisted 1 stopper but team didnt allow, as they always take hedge by splitting strategy).
As i said, Kimi and Perez was the only drivers with the ideal strategy (same prime>option 1 stopper iirc), and it's not like Kimi failed miserably, actually he was posting strong laps towards the end and pushing the car in front.



#875 Anderis

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 17:55

OZ
his rear wing flap was damaged at T1 of opening lap and was flipfloping for whole race

Malaysia
his rear damper was slowly failing from in the middle of FP3. Team could identify the problem only because he kept insisting sth was defo wrong with rear suspension for several hours after Quali.
In the race, he asked for wet tyres on lap 3 or so but team ordered him to stay out (eventually pitting lap 9 or so). When it was drying up, he asked for dry tyres earlier but again team ordered him to stay out. Eventually his brake failed and had to retire.

China
good quali. But during support race on sunday morning, a car put oil patch exactly on his starting position, which hindered his start apparently.

Spain
his Q2 best lap was set with right rear tyre (iirc) being sprayed with leaking oil from his car. Without which he wouldve started from better position and might have finished higher.

Monaco
taken off at St devote several sec after the start. Also, he insisted different tyre choice for Quali than team's recommendation. and it turns out that his choice seemed to be correct.

Canada
stuck behind Kimi and di Resta for long time at critical point of the race, which cost him 15sec at minimum. Plus team changed strategy from 2 stopper to 1 stopper in the middle of the race. SS>S 1 stopper was the strategy that was meant to fail in the first place. Plus, before the race, he insisted 1 stopper strongly, same as his teammate's, but the team denied it.

also the team gave slow 1st pitstop at Valencia, 1st corner incident at Spa, etc

Besides above, he had minor bad lucks here and there, like slow pitstop (like 8sec instead of 5), questioning strategic call (earlier than planned pitstop despite his good pace), all resulted in lost position and time at critical timing.

Also races like Barcelona and Germany, he had to stuck behind slower car for many laps despite having pace and good strategy. Kamui just is without luck, almost miracle-esque.

Thank you, I appreciate your effort of giving facts rather than arguing based on impressions, what often happens on Internet forusm.

But still I think Kamui isn't doing that good job throughout the season as many people would like to say about him. Not that he is really crap or something, but I would say he is nothing outstanding also. He actually had couple of bad luck events, but so had majority of drivers. I'm not sure if being stuck behind slower car is right excuse with current multiple overtakes/DRS/Pirelli era at circuits other than Monaco and Hungary. If he would be loosing that much time behind slower drivers, he should be able to overtake them thanks to the speed advantage, shouldn't he?
If you would put together his all bad luck events and give him points he would get if it all didn't happen, would he be in front of Perez in the standings? Would he be a match for Perez if Sergio has got his recompense for bad luck too? It doesn't seem so. If actually not, then he didn't deserve all the hype I can see about him in my eyes. I don't deny he can be very good on occasion and we can expect at least one outstanding performance to the end of the season if he put the things toghether. But is he doing consistently that good job to deserve of being considered by big teams as a possible driver for 2013 as many wants for him? I'm not convinced so far.

#876 Marbles

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 18:01

It was nice to see dust being thrown up when cars went off the track, as opposed to the nothingness of asphalt run off.

:up:

By the way, anyone still willing to say this was a boring race?

#877 muramasa

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 18:54

Thank you, I appreciate your effort of giving facts rather than arguing based on impressions, what often happens on Internet forusm.

But still I think Kamui isn't doing that good job throughout the season as many people would like to say about him. Not that he is really crap or something, but I would say he is nothing outstanding also. He actually had couple of bad luck events, but so had majority of drivers.

How much you rate who is completely personal opinion, so I dont really care about that.

I'm not sure if being stuck behind slower car is right excuse with current multiple overtakes/DRS/Pirelli era at circuits other than Monaco and Hungary. If he would be loosing that much time behind slower drivers, he should be able to overtake them thanks to the speed advantage, shouldn't he?

Sauber tend to struggle with straight line speed at many tracks due to (relatively) poor traction. At Barcelona for example, he had pace and faster than Ros and JB, but just couldnt pass at DRS zone, couldnt even come close behind those cars at straight end, even with DRS open. That's why he had to look for somewhere else to pass, as he did at hairpin, non DRS zone. You can observe Sauber cars just cant get close even with DRS open, or struggle to do that, at many tracks so far. At Germany too, they struggled but Kamui did better job than Perez at that.


If you would put together his all bad luck events and give him points he would get if it all didn't happen, would he be in front of Perez in the standings? Would he be a match for Perez if Sergio has got his recompense for bad luck too? It doesn't seem so. If actually not, then he didn't deserve all the hype I can see about him in my eyes. I don't deny he can be very good on occasion and we can expect at least one outstanding performance to the end of the season if he put the things toghether. But is he doing consistently that good job to deserve of being considered by big teams as a possible driver for 2013 as many wants for him? I'm not convinced so far.

I'm not interested in "if" talk either, and I'm happy that Perez is amazing driver and delivering great results.

I just want to get the facts straight. What I'm not happy about is people, even professional commentators and journalists and informative fans all seem completely unaware of those facts I gave (cannot blame fans coz media dont report those things. only Japanese media dig into Kamui and report in detail), that they use Perez performance in order to dismiss Kamui unfairly, ignoring factors. Even the likes of Brundle says sth like "oh look at 40sec gap between Perez and Kobayashi, that's not just strategy"...are they professional in the first place? Dont know how big a difference the strategy can actually make to final outcome? Gathering facts and analyzing is basic thing in whatever genre, but "professional" people fail to do that and conclude Kamui poor performance. Why they have to bother to dismiss Kamui? Why dont they just praise Perez? That's simply unacceptable.

Some races, or even season, Webber completely owned by Vettel, Button completely nowhere compared to Hamilton, or vice versa, and Alonso-Massa, etc, but i never heard they used one driver's great performance in order to dismiss the other driver, just from one race (or even season). But they do this so easily to Kamui.



#878 Anderis

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 19:17

How much you rate who is completely personal opinion, so I dont really care about that.

I don't claim you should care. Just state what I think to give a possibility to prove me wrong and I could learn something. You're doing good job with providing material to analyse. :up:

#879 phil1993

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 19:20

Just to confirm the confusion about the Press Conference.

You used to have this:
- TV Unilaterals - shown on TV. Drivers interviewed in order of finish, one or two questions each.
- Press Conference - Lasts about half an hour, Bob Constanduros asks the drivers questions for a while, then it's questions from the floor.

Now instead of the TV unilaterals, you have the interviews on the podium. The press conference still takes place as normal.

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#880 AlexS

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 19:29

It was nice to see dust being thrown up when cars went off the track, as opposed to the nothingness of asphalt run off.


Yeah! good call.

#881 Kingshark

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 00:07

And, once again, Alonso gets the championship because his main rival has pathetic reliability. Nothing new to see here. Three titles, three multiple gifts from the main contender.

Alonso actually lost more points than Schumacher in 2006. Schumi lost 10 in Japan and 5 in Brazil, but Alonso lost 10 in Hungary, 6 in Italy and 2 in China.

In 2005 Alonso might have been luckier because his car was more reliable, but Raikkonen definitely drove the quicker car throughout the season. Mclaren were considerably quicker than Renault that year, by about half a second.

Alonso lucky this season? The only time he was actually fortunate was Europe. But you seem to forget he could have won this race if it wasn't for his rear suspension problem in qualifying. He was punted off the track in Belgium, and Ferrari suicide bombed his strategy in Canada. He's lost more points than he's gain.

Frankly to me it seems your only counting what's gone with him, and not what's gone against him.

Edited by Kingshark, 10 September 2012 - 00:08.


#882 forixfan

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:00

And, once again, Alonso gets the championship because his main rival has pathetic reliability. Nothing new to see here. Three titles, three multiple gifts from the main contender.


It more than balances out with the performance deficit he always has.

#883 crbassassin

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:22

It more than balances out with the performance deficit he always has.


How come Ferrari gets it but not the HRT?
If anyone should lucky wins, it sould be the HRT's, since they are more than seconds off the pace. :stoned:

Edited by crbassassin, 10 September 2012 - 06:22.


#884 Obi Offiah

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 15:55

What are the thoughts on DRS performance at Monza this year? I think it worked really well personally.

#885 Disgrace

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 15:56

In that we didn't notice it?

#886 Obi Offiah

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 16:04

In that we didn't notice it?

That it wasn't too overt and often allowed faster drivers/cars to get into position to attempt an overtake, without just breezing passed. There were occasions where the car behind completed the overtake before the braking zone with and without DRS.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 11 September 2012 - 16:05.


#887 Slowinfastout

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 16:07

I believe it might be because the effect is less brutal because of the low downforce wings...