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Vettel drive-through, Italian GP 2012


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Poll: Drive-Through penalty (620 member(s) have cast votes)

Was the Drive-Through penalty for Vettel justified?

  1. Yes (306 votes [49.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 49.76%

  2. No (267 votes [43.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 43.41%

  3. Don't care (42 votes [6.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.83%

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#1 anbeck

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 12:59

The FIA states:

"20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner."

So can this be read as: the one-width rule applies only in cases where the driver first left the racing line? If so, then the drive-through for Vettel does not seem justified, because as I see it he was on the usual racing line through Curva Grande.

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#2 undersquare

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:04

It was for "forcing another driver off the track", which he clearly did, so no contest IMO.

#3 bourbon

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:04

It was a bunch of crap. Alonso being handed the damn championship - being handed all kinds of crap this year. Vettel left him more room than he left last year. Terrible call. Then we will hear what a 'fabulous' driver Alonso is - when he went wide and forced himself further into the dirt.

Aw well, back to the race where Alonso's radio is annoucing that Massa will be giving him his position. What a joke of a driver. And there oozes the last of the very little respect I had left for the dude. Worst Driver Ever.

#4 drunkenmaster

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:05

No, it wasn't justified, FIA is a joke. Vettel was just on the racing line, he didn't push Alonso anywhere. Why is it Vettel's fault when Alonso tries to overtake on the outside... :evil:

#5 NorthernStar

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:09

This thread should be fun. We haven't had an Alonso controversy in ages. :lol:

#6 BenettonB192

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:14

This is pathetic. So basicly now every driver (at least he sits in a Ferrari) can try to overtake with a crowbar and when it doesn't work out the other driver gets penalized for "forcing him off the track"?
Also much lost respect for Alonso for his whining. It was exactly the same situation as last year in reverse!

#7 Creepy

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:17

It was a bunch of crap. Alonso being handed the damn championship - being handed all kinds of crap this year.


Yeah, lol. Vettel broke the rule that was made in Bahrain from this year (because of Rosberg) and it's all about FIA predicting that this would happen in Italy. :drunk:

Vettel left him more room than he left last year.


Not so.

Terrible call. Then we will hear what a 'fabulous' driver Alonso is - when he went wide and forced himself further into the dirt.


He ended up overtaking Vettel anyway, so yep, sure he is fabulous.

Aw well, back to the race where Alonso's radio is annoucing that Massa will be giving him his position. What a joke of a driver. And there oozes the last of the very little respect I had left for the dude. Worst Driver Ever.


That has nothing to do with this thread. But RBR has also performed team orders several times too. :wave:

#8 Creepy

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:19

It's funny, because some races back when Perez couldn't pass Alonso people here said it was team orders and that he was getting points given. But today we see there aren't team orders at all between Ferrari and Sauber. :)

It's the same with the FIA today.

Edited by Creepy, 09 September 2012 - 13:20.


#9 F1ultimate

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:20

Terrible penalty. Vettel knew where Alonso might try to stick it. Vettel held the racing line tight and Alonso was a tad optimistic about Alonso giving him way.

I'm not Vettels biggest fan but he did nothing wrong.

#10 Massa

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:24

16) INCIDENTS
16.1 "Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and subsequently investigated) which :
a) Necessitated the suspension of a race under Article 41.
b) Constituted a breach of these Sporting Regulations or the Code.
c) Caused a false start by one or more cars.
d) Caused a collision.
e) Forced a driver off the track.
f) Illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver.
g) Illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking.
Unless it was completely clear that a driver was in breach of any of the above, any incidents involving more than one car will normally be investigated after the race.


The rule is the rule.

#11 mlsnoopy

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:24

Shumacher Hamilton last year similar situation no action.

#12 Creepy

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:26

The rule is the rule.


Yes. There is nothing else to it but to deal with it.

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#13 anbeck

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:26

I think he didn't "force" Alonso off the track! That's the damn racing line through Curva Grande! It cost Alonso like 1,5 seconds...

#14 exogenesis1203

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:29

He didn't force Alonso off, Alonso wasn't even close to being along side, he went for an nonexistent gap and when that failed he whines about it as usual.

#15 Sakae

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:29

Disgrace, just disgrace.

#16 apoka

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:30

Ridiculous penalty. Vettel was on the racing line and Alonso was not ahead of him.

#17 Diablobb81

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:30

BS penalty. There was no crowding.

#18 Topsu

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:30

Vettel used the same line as always. Last year Alonso did the same. But he's privileged, what can you say?

#19 Creepy

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:31

He did not did exactly the same.

Ridiculous penalty. Vettel was on the racing line and Alonso was not ahead of him.


He was, he had a large part of his car alongside Vettel and Vettel kept on turning without leaving space (at least Alonso left space enough for a car last year).

And replays that will surely show up here will prove this (hence, FIA action).

Edited by Creepy, 09 September 2012 - 13:32.


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#20 icecream

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:31

weak penalty.

#21 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:32

The FIA states:

"20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner."

So can this be read as: the one-width rule applies only in cases where the driver first left the racing line? If so, then the drive-through for Vettel does not seem justified, because as I see it he was on the usual racing line through Curva Grande.

But Vettel was already opening to the left and taking the turn when Alonso dived in. The rule says that you have to give room, but it doesn't say you have to back down or to slow down or to move away because the driver behind you might missjudge the situation and try to attack where there is no room at all.
The question I would ask is not whether Vettel's penalty was deserved, but rather if he would have got one had the race steward not being from Spain.

#22 jeze

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:32

Vettel fans in thinking gravel trap is part of the track-shocker :drunk:

#23 harrys

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:33

Total joke. F1 disgraces itself again. They might as well appoint Domenicali as the head steward at every race.

There is no consistency whatsoever. Dozens of similar moves by other drivers this year have not been punished.

Vettel did not make two moves, he made one move to cover the outside line, which is allowed.

#24 choyothe

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:34

One of the worst decisions I've seen, not surprised it's against Ferralonso at Monza (what a despicable team and driver).

Vettel made the move of covering the inside well before Alonso was near him, Alonso sees this and losing all sense decides to still dive up the inside where there was absolutely no room. Terrible driving for Alonso, almost worthy of him losing it on the grass.

#25 WatchingF1since4yearsold

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:34

given the rule change they made, it's harsh but yes it's justified cause he didn't leave Alonso enough room.



#26 BruisedLee

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:34

I don't think Vettel tried to squeeze Alonso off the track, but he did not leave enough space. The rule is there this year and the stewards applied it rightly. Anyway, Alonso overtook him and finally Vettel's didn't finish the race, so you can keep crying now all you want, but the result wouldn't have changed an iota for Vettel.

I wonder if Birelman is celebrating now...

#27 Massa

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:35

One of the worst decisions I've seen, not surprised it's against Ferralonso at Monza (what a despicable team and driver).

Vettel made the move of covering the inside well before Alonso was near him, Alonso sees this and losing all sense decides to still dive up the inside where there was absolutely no room. Terrible driving for Alonso, almost worthy of him losing it on the grass.



Vettel have to LEAVE SOME SPACE. It's too hard to understand ?

#28 tarmac

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:35

http://184.106.145.7...ta-stewards.pdf

These seem fair and balanced. Spanish and Italian :lol:

#29 fabr68

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:35

After last weekend and new overtaking rules for this weekend, Vettel purposly pushing Alonso 4-wheels off the track deserved a penalty.

New year, new season, new rules...

#30 choyothe

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:36

But Vettel was already opening to the left and taking the turn when Alonso dived in. The rule says that you have to give room, but it doesn't say you have to back down or to slow down or to move away because the driver behind you might missjudge the situation and try to attack where there is no room at all.
The question I would ask is not whether Vettel's penalty was deserved, but rather if he would have got one had the race steward not being from Spain.


Exactly, completely Alonso's misjudgment. What are the consequenses for him: penalty for Vettel, team-order to get through Massa, Button to DNF from ahead and then Vettel to DNF to top it off. :stoned:

It would be hard to write this shit.

#31 Creepy

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:36

Vettel fans in thinking gravel trap is part of the track-shocker :drunk:


The funny thing is that Vettel fans were asking Alonso to be banned from F1 last year for pushing Vettel to the limit but never outside of the track, leaving the space eventually... Thing Vettel did not do this year.

#32 tifosi

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:37

One of the worst decisions I've seen, not surprised it's against Ferralonso at Monza (what a despicable team and driver).

Vettel made the move of covering the inside well before Alonso was near him, Alonso sees this and losing all sense decides to still dive up the inside where there was absolutely no room. Terrible driving for Alonso, almost worthy of him losing it on the grass.


You are 1000% correct! Vettel covered the INSIDE (as you so rightly pointed out), and Alonso went to the OUTSIDE.

Vettel then moved outside, so as you have made so clear, obvious infraction! Thanks for clearing that up :up:

#33 karne

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:38

Perfectly justified.

Alonso went to the outside, Vettel moved again, pushed Alonso wide, and left no room. Alonso didn't go by himself, he was forced there.

#34 DanardiF1

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:38

I don't see where Vettel crowded Alonso at all... Fernando just wanted to try and do what Vettel did last year but couldn't stick it (frankly it was pretty lucky that Vettel made it stick, very dicey)...

Alonso made more defensive moves in last year's race, Seb didn't do anything wrong to me...

And as you can check for yourself in the forum, I'm not a Vettel fan...

#35 SpaMaster

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:38

Looks like obvious Monza bias for Ferrari from the stewards. Shame on them. Spineless.

#36 Sakae

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:38

Vettel have to LEAVE SOME SPACE. It's too hard to understand ?

You mean the same way like Button left for Vettel?

#37 Goron3

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:39

It was a bunch of crap. Alonso being handed the damn championship - being handed all kinds of crap this year. Vettel left him more room than he left last year. Terrible call. Then we will hear what a 'fabulous' driver Alonso is - when he went wide and forced himself further into the dirt.

Aw well, back to the race where Alonso's radio is annoucing that Massa will be giving him his position. What a joke of a driver. And there oozes the last of the very little respect I had left for the dude. Worst Driver Ever.


Actually the footage shows vettel left him much less room than alonso left him last year (vettel ran wide last year remember).

Disappointed vettel did it because I'm such a big fan of his and every time I've met him he's been class, but the penalty was deserved as it clearly broke the rules.

Great race though!

#38 choyothe

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:39

You are 1000% correct! Vettel covered the INSIDE (as you so rightly pointed out), and Alonso went to the OUTSIDE.

Vettel then moved outside, so as you have made so clear, obvious infraction! Thanks for clearing that up :up:


I meant inside to the chicane. Try again.

#39 sailor

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:39

Clearly political.

When fanboys were asking for a penalty , I was LOLing hard !

And then I had egg on my face - You know what I mean . When it came on screen , really couldn't believe it.

It was exact repeat of last year

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#40 keiichi

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:39

I was actually praying Vettel wouldn't get the penalty because I knew all hell would break loose in this forum.

Alonso got past Vettel before he got the penalty, it's not like he got the position after the penalty. Vettel also retired so it really didn't make a difference...

I didn't got to really understand if the penalty was trully justified, but Brundle during his commentary said that the more he saw the replay the more it seemed like Vettel was "naughty", and it's not like he's an Alonso fanboy.

You can argue what you want, but if anything might have cost Vettel the championship it was the DNF not the penalty. Still a long way to go, so it's no like Vettel doesn't stand a chance anymore.

#41 fabr68

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:39

Exactly, completely Alonso's misjudgment. What are the consequenses for him: penalty for Vettel, team-order to get through Massa, Button to DNF from ahead and then Vettel to DNF to top it off. :stoned:

It would be hard to write this shit.


You have to give space to the overtaking car.

Vettel tried to be funny, but the joke ended up on him.

#42 MichaelPM

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:43

Looks like obvious Monza bias for Ferrari from the stewards. Shame on them. Spineless.

I agree, they rarely apply the rules so competently as today :lol:

#43 GT Racing Online Magazine

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:43

FIA stewards at this race:


SILVIA BELLOT (ESP)
GRADUATE OF THE FIA TRAINEE STEWARD PROGRAMME
Silvia Bellot began marshalling in 2001 at the age of 16. Despite
her youth Bellot has been Permanent Chairman of Stewards for
the European F3 Open and Spanish Endurance Championships,
as well as Permanent Steward of the GT Open International and
Andorra Ice Championships, among other national series. A native
of Barcelona, Bellot has sat on the stewards’ panel at a wide range
of championships, including the World Rally Championship, GP2,
GP3, BMW Europe, DTM and World Series by Renault. In 2001,
she started her collaboration with Catalunya’s automobile club,
the RACC, and in 2008 she joined the Spanish Assembly and the
Circuit the Catalunya officials’ committee. A year later, Bellot took
part in the FIA trainee stewards’ program for GP2 and F1. In 2011
she sat as an FIA steward at the Turkish and Italian Grands Prix.


Emanuele Pirro (ITA)
FORMER F1 DRIVER AND FIVE-TIME LE MANS WINNER
During a motor sport career that has spanned almost 40 years,
Emanuele Pirro has achieved a huge amount of success, most
notably in sportcar racing, with five Le Mans wins, victory at
the Daytona 24 Hours and two wins at the Sebring 12 Hours.
In addition he has won the German and Italian Touring Car
championships (the latter twice) and has twice been American Le
Mans Series Champion. Pirro, enjoyed a three-season F1 career
from 1989 to 1991, firstly with Benetton and then for Scuderia
Italia.

GERD ENNSER (GER)
MEMBER OF THE DMSB’s EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE FOR
AUTOMOBILE SPORT, FORMULA ONE AND DTM STEWARD
Dr Gerd Ennser has successfully combined his formal education in
law with his passion for motor racing. While still active as a racing
driver he began helping out with the management of his local motor
sport club and since 2006 has been a permanent steward at every
round of Germany’s DTM championship.

#44 Feanaro

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:44

The funny thing is that Vettel fans were asking Alonso to be banned from F1 last year for pushing Vettel to the limit but never outside of the track, leaving the space eventually... Thing Vettel did not do this year.


I really don't know why are you so surprised.
I'll only state this, every single f1 fan has double standards, i repeat every single one be it an ALO,VET,HAM,BUT,etc.. fan



let the carnage begin :lol:

peace out.

#45 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:45

FIA stewards at this race:


SILVIA BELLOT (ESP)
GRADUATE OF THE FIA TRAINEE STEWARD PROGRAMME
Silvia Bellot began marshalling in 2001 at the age of 16. Despite
her youth Bellot has been Permanent Chairman of Stewards for
the European F3 Open and Spanish Endurance Championships,
as well as Permanent Steward of the GT Open International and
Andorra Ice Championships, among other national series. A native
of Barcelona, Bellot has sat on the stewards’ panel at a wide range
of championships, including the World Rally Championship, GP2,
GP3, BMW Europe, DTM and World Series by Renault. In 2001,
she started her collaboration with Catalunya’s automobile club,
the RACC, and in 2008 she joined the Spanish Assembly and the
Circuit the Catalunya officials’ committee. A year later, Bellot took
part in the FIA trainee stewards’ program for GP2 and F1. In 2011
she sat as an FIA steward at the Turkish and Italian Grands Prix.


Emanuele Pirro (ITA)
FORMER F1 DRIVER AND FIVE-TIME LE MANS WINNER
During a motor sport career that has spanned almost 40 years,
Emanuele Pirro has achieved a huge amount of success, most
notably in sportcar racing, with five Le Mans wins, victory at
the Daytona 24 Hours and two wins at the Sebring 12 Hours.
In addition he has won the German and Italian Touring Car
championships (the latter twice) and has twice been American Le
Mans Series Champion. Pirro, enjoyed a three-season F1 career
from 1989 to 1991, firstly with Benetton and then for Scuderia
Italia.

GERD ENNSER (GER)
MEMBER OF THE DMSB’s EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE FOR
AUTOMOBILE SPORT, FORMULA ONE AND DTM STEWARD
Dr Gerd Ennser has successfully combined his formal education in
law with his passion for motor racing. While still active as a racing
driver he began helping out with the management of his local motor
sport club and since 2006 has been a permanent steward at every
round of Germany’s DTM championship.

So, one from Spain and one from Italy on Ferralonso corner.
One from Germany for Vettel.

Wondering how did the voting go... 2-1 by any chance?

#46 exogenesis1203

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:45

I really don't know why are you so surprised.
I'll only state this, every single f1 fan has double standards, i repeat every single one be it an ALO,VET,HAM,BUT,etc.. fan



let the carnage begin :lol:

peace out.

And it's also double standards for us to be calling people double standards :p it's so meta!

#47 Marbles

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:46

At first blush, I don't have any problems with the stewards and the way they applied the rule. On the other hand, I really don't like that rule, it's getting harder and harder to defend in F1. Worse, the rules seem to be increasingly shifting the onus on the defending driver to effect a clean pass, and that's just nuts.

#48 Muppetmad

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:47

I love the way that inevitably some of the people screaming incessantly last week about how Grosjean could have killed somebody have no issue with what Vettel did today.

#49 Leyser

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:47

Last year people were demanding the death penalty for Alonso, and he was kinder to Vettel then. Give it a rest.

#50 pedrorito

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:47