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Lewis Hamilton - Part III


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#2501 speng

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:14

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the anti-roll bar was "stressed" by the unusual reactions in Japan due to the Damper issue?

Sure, it could/should have been changed, but it wouldn't be the first time 1 incident leads to other mechanical woes at the following race.

Just speculation of course, others will know how likely it is.

There is no proof either way this is why it suspicious, it is not like this has never happened before.

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#2502 Guizotia

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:19

Why would HE sabotage himself?

:D


TDG!

#2503 Fox1

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:21

So ... Button's infamous quest for "balance" mid season was what? A secret plot from Whitmarsh to also kick Button out and drive the car himself?

One is a driver deficiency while the other is a mechanical/operational deficiency.

#2504 Sinceref189

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:24

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the anti-roll bar was "stressed" by the unusual reactions in Japan due to the Damper issue?Sure, it could/should have been changed, but it wouldn't be the first time 1 incident leads to other mechanical woes at the following race.

Just speculation of course, others will know how likely it is.

Ohhh good theory :up:

#2505 Dalton007

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:29

You don't (you are not 100% sure) they will and I am beginning to suspect that may they do that (I am not a100% sure). Since Hamilton made known that he is leaving the team he has had a damper and anti-roll bar failure in 2 races, back to back. Coincidence? Maybe, for a team like Mclaren it makes me wonder.



Of course you fail to realise the mechanical failures earlier in the season. And the mechanical issues Jenson has had too.

There is no evidence to suggest there is a conspiracy to sabotage his car, but clearly McLaren are leaving Lewis (in meetings and pr) in the cold as Kravitz eluded to in his notebook.

#2506 fed up

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:29

It's only been 2 races. It's also not like they have been flawless before those 2 races.


Spa, Japan, Korea



#2507 as65p

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:34

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the anti-roll bar was "stressed" by the unusual reactions in Japan due to the Damper issue?

Sure, it could/should have been changed, but it wouldn't be the first time 1 incident leads to other mechanical woes at the following race.

Just speculation of course, others will know how likely it is.


Sounds plausible. Something similar might have happened with Alonsos car abused by the Grosjean shunt in Spa and then having issues in Monza practice & qualifying.

#2508 Watkins74

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:35

Spa, Japan, Korea

?

#2509 whitevisor

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:55

This is very much a possibility. For example: an out of balance wheel can lead to a premature wheel bearing failure.... Etc.... Etc....

However for an ARB to fail per se.... That takes some going. They're pretty robust bits of kit. Maybe it was the related fixings?


Depending on what type of roll bar it is; it could be four fasteners that hold it, or ONE.

I won't be surprised if a mechanic conveniently forgot to tighten all the bolts...

#2510 Watkins74

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:59

Depending on what type of roll bar it is; it could be four fasteners that hold it, or ONE.

I won't be surprised if a mechanic conveniently forgot to tighten all the bolts...

I wouldn't be surprised if Lewis conveniently hooked that carpet on his car on purpose....

Wait...this isn't the insane conspiracy thread....I am really sorry. ;)

#2511 Guizotia

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:04

Depending on what type of roll bar it is; it could be four fasteners that hold it, or ONE.

I won't be surprised if a mechanic conveniently forgot to tighten all the bolts...


Couldn't actions like that potentially lead to death? And if so, doesn't that make it even more unlikely...

#2512 MightyMoose

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:05

I threw in the "existing stresses" query as a sensible suggestion as to a possible cause. It could quite easily be a simple case of "shit happens", very unfortunate timing of course and manna from heaven for those who still wish to peddle the conspiracy theories.

However, I would suggest that comments similar to the one a few posts above, and it's far from the only one, are treading a very fine line in legal terms. Please think about the various libel laws & rules of this forum before engaging in rampant unfounded speculation.

Additionally, we know there is at least 1 McLaren team member who takes the time to participate on this forum, please consider how they may feel should they encounter the slurs being tossed into here.



#2513 whitevisor

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:11

Conspiracy has always been a part of F1. That the team was so intent on running a split strategy in Spa, they did not want Hamilton to run same the Low DF wing as Button, so they coerced him into using it DESPITE what the telemetry was glaringly showing, which was a car 0.6 seconds slower on the straights. Hamilton chose the wing obviously. He trusts the engineers to a fault. But we all know how that ended up. It was such a slight, Hamilton had no choice but to show the world the telemetry that the engineers ignored.



#2514 maverick69

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:14

I threw in the "existing stresses" query as a sensible suggestion as to a possible cause. It could quite easily be a simple case of "shit happens", very unfortunate timing of course and manna from heaven for those who still wish to peddle the conspiracy theories.


Here's the Ferrari version - albeit a pushrod version...... but it's pretty much the same concept for all intents and purposes.

http://scarbsf1.file..._arb_colour.jpg

The failed damper could have send an offset stress up through the assembly. It would be intersesting to hear if they did some NDT on the whole system and used it again - or if they used an entire new system.......

#2515 Force Ten

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:31

Why would HE sabotage himself?

:D

The thought has crossed my mind. Maybe it was a lesser god that was jealous of the superior one?

#2516 whitevisor

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:32

Couldn't actions like that potentially lead to death? And if so, doesn't that make it even more unlikely...


The car will still work, it will just drive like crap. The driver is still the one that decides how far to go around the corners isn't it?;) The roll bar can even be removed, like what Mercedes GP did last year in one of the later races. It's just a component that affects car behaviour not like the brakes/seat belts, crumple zone, A-arms, uprights (Torro Rosso remember?) which are absolutely necessary.

A working engine is optional too. It's a good thing Mercedes handles that. :lol:

Edited by whitevisor, 15 October 2012 - 14:35.


#2517 Force Ten

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:40

The car will still work, it will just drive like crap. The driver is still the one that decides how far to go around the corners isn't it?;) The roll bar can even be removed, like what Mercedes GP did last year in one of the later races. It's just a component that affects car behaviour not like the brakes/seat belts, crumple zone, A-arms, uprights (Torro Rosso remember?) which are absolutely necessary.

Please tell us your whole credentials on vehicle dynamics. Perhaps Andy will like to suggest taking you to McLaren payroll even this year thus preventing sabotage from happening to Hamilton's car again.

Also, what other details can you remove or break on the car that make it work, just drive worse, please do tell?

Edited by Force Ten, 15 October 2012 - 14:41.


#2518 Tauhid

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:47

I don't think the team will do anything as stupid to mess up Lewis's car. The slim chance of a WCC is possible. McLaren may have lost an amazing driver, but there's a future to look forward to. I think Ross Brawn will be a great mentor to Lewis. :up:

It takes two to tango, I suspect that certain elements within the team have not been happy with Lewis's behaviour.


WCC? Slim chance? Very very slim if you ask me. They are now like 83 points behind Red Bull right? So that means McLaren needs to score at least 84 points and expect Red Bull to score less than 16. Mission Impossible if you ask me.

#2519 OoxLox

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:50

I threw in the "existing stresses" query as a sensible suggestion as to a possible cause. It could quite easily be a simple case of "shit happens", very unfortunate timing of course and manna from heaven for those who still wish to peddle the conspiracy theories.

However, I would suggest that comments similar to the one a few posts above, and it's far from the only one, are treading a very fine line in legal terms. Please think about the various libel laws & rules of this forum before engaging in rampant unfounded speculation.

Additionally, we know there is at least 1 McLaren team member who takes the time to participate on this forum, please consider how they may feel should they encounter the slurs being tossed into here.


+1. Have some respect people. You're not slinging mud at a nasty big corporate entity full of mindless besuited robots (do they exist outside of London?;) ) but at a small group of race mechanics and engineers who sweat blood every fortnight so we can watch fast cars go "vroom". I'm a big Lewis fan and was gutted to see him fall back down the field (though let's face it there were some great racing moments along the way) but this is all getting really f*****g silly.


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#2520 Obi Offiah

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:51

Why would HE sabotage himself?

:D

:lol: I was waiting for someone to post that.

#2521 Obi Offiah

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:56

The dig at lauda (which made me laugh) or not mentioning Lewis?

Not mentioning Lewis. The dig at Lauda went over my head, I don't get it.

#2522 Kvothe

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:01

Not mentioning Lewis. The dig at Lauda went over my head, I don't get it.


Professor: Our world Champions, Prost, Senna, Hunt-

Nyck de vries: Lauda-

Professor: Hunt C**t

Edited by Kvothe, 15 October 2012 - 15:02.


#2523 TheManAlive

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:02

Putting aside conspiracy theories and Mclaren bashing, one thing that struck me during the race on Sunday was how well Hamilton drove a very bad handling car and was still able to fight so well - that has got to bode well for next year. Not that I am saying that the Merc will be as bad as a Mclaren with a broken rear anti-roll bar, but it just reenforces my previous belief that Lewis can and does drive around a bad car. Some of his best races imho happened in 2009 in that dog of a Mclaren. I think whilst Hamilton supporters may not get to cheer many victories or championships in the near future I do think we will be able to cheer some brilliant drives out performing the car and getting podiums- I can totally see him doing what Kimi has done this year and score regular points.

#2524 SmokeScreen

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:08

Not mentioning Lewis. The dig at Lauda went over my head, I don't get it.


that bit was funny
...
M pointed out Hunt
de V: Lauda
which M interpreted as a request to speak “louder”
so M virtually shouts ‘HUNT’

...
seriously though pleased Lewis has stopped appearing
he wasn’t being portrayed right –but it was oh so subtle


#2525 Obi Offiah

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:11

that bit was funny
...
M pointed out Hunt
de V: Lauda
which M interpreted as a request to speak “louder”
so M virtually shouts ‘HUNT’

...
seriously though pleased Lewis has stopped appearing
he wasn’t being portrayed right –but it was oh so subtle

Ahhhh, cheers, pretty obvious now.

Any examples?

#2526 Gareth

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:23

It's only been 2 races. It's also not like they have been flawless before those 2 races.

Yup. Not sabotage. Just continuation of normal 2012 service which, frankly, has been very poor. McLaren should be very disappointed with themselves over things like pitstops, strategy and reliability this season - they have not hit the levels they ought to aspire to. Ferrari have been the gold standard this season and McLaren have missed that by a mile (with both cars).

#2527 OoxLox

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:30

Putting aside conspiracy theories and Mclaren bashing, one thing that struck me during the race on Sunday was how well Hamilton drove a very bad handling car and was still able to fight so well - that has got to bode well for next year. Not that I am saying that the Merc will be as bad as a Mclaren with a broken rear anti-roll bar, but it just reenforces my previous belief that Lewis can and does drive around a bad car. Some of his best races imho happened in 2009 in that dog of a Mclaren. I think whilst Hamilton supporters may not get to cheer many victories or championships in the near future I do think we will be able to cheer some brilliant drives out performing the car and getting podiums- I can totally see him doing what Kimi has done this year and score regular points.


Yep, it's a mouth-watering prospect, isn't it? It depends on Merc having a car as good as the one they started this year with and then going down a decent development route, but if it's at least somewhere around where Lotus has been this year he might have a chance at a win and he'll definitely be on for podiums at some races. If the car's crap then we get to watch him fighting like crazy for minor points positions at best, but so long as you're a fan of his driving per se and not just his wins and podiums, it'll be a really fun year. I just hope the W04's not in a slot of its own behind the front runners and ahead of the midfield like Merc was for a while earlier this year and Rosberg in particular had some races where he hardly saw another car other than back markers.



#2528 whitevisor

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:35

Please tell us your whole credentials on vehicle dynamics. Perhaps Andy will like to suggest taking you to McLaren payroll even this year thus preventing sabotage from happening to Hamilton's car again.

Also, what other details can you remove or break on the car that make it work, just drive worse, please do tell?




It's a long list.

#2529 SmokeScreen

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:36


In keeping with previous years, Hamilton had booked a bowling alley in Suzuka for the Saturday night of the Japanese Grand Prix, where he had intended to say a few words about his impending departure, but was forced to cancel when a number of the team went on a charity track run with his McLaren team-mate Jenson Button instead.

.
.
.
McLaren stressed there was no suggestion that team members had purposely avoided the evening, adding that they would happily have gone bowling had they not already committed to the run with Button.
.
.
.
He told reporters in Japan that he was going to ask team principal Martin Whitmarsh for an opportunity to address the team in an effort to explain his departure and stress how much driving for McLaren meant to him.

http://www.telegraph...at-McLaren.html


Thought I would re-post this since the link I saw briefly this morning seems to have dissappeared (UK broadsheet article so autosport should rest easy re: legal defamation fears).

...
reading this article - there is a lack of dignity being shown here:
just a couple more whys to throw into an incredulous race weekend that in itself is throwing up a whole bunch of "professionalism'!
questions
1. if the bowling was a traditional event then why, on his last year with Mclaren, was it booked away?
2. if they were really feeling sooooo charitable why was Lewis not made aware of /invited to the team event going on?



#2530 SmokeScreen

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:54

Any examples?



it was subtle and everyones different :kiss: so perhaps its best I don't start more controversy ontop of the ongoing stuff

#2531 Obi Offiah

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:56

it was subtle and everyones different :kiss: so perhaps its best I don't start more controversy ontop of the ongoing stuff

Sure, no probs SmokeScreen. :up:

#2532 SmokeScreen

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:59

Yep, it's a mouth-watering prospect, isn't it? It depends on Merc having a car as good as the one they started this year with and then going down a decent development route, but if it's at least somewhere around where Lotus has been this year he might have a chance at a win and he'll definitely be on for podiums at some races. If the car's crap then we get to watch him fighting like crazy for minor points positions at best, but so long as you're a fan of his driving per se and not just his wins and podiums, it'll be a really fun year. I just hope the W04's not in a slot of its own behind the front runners and ahead of the midfield like Merc was for a while earlier this year and Rosberg in particular had some races where he hardly saw another car other than back markers.



:up: :up: :smoking:
that is what i'm personally waiting for next season




hopefully if he can also be rewarded with points and podium then that will be good for the team motivation too :clap: :clap:




just hope he survives this one in one piece mentally and physically :eek:

#2533 robefc

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:08

that bit was funny
...
M pointed out Hunt
de V: Lauda
which M interpreted as a request to speak “louder”
so M virtually shouts ‘HUNT’

...
seriously though pleased Lewis has stopped appearing
he wasn’t being portrayed right –but it was oh so subtle


Ahhhh, I thought it was more along Kvothe's lines, and particularly bearing in mind his role in lewis's exit.

But this makes non controversial sense!

I didn't have an issue with the way he was portrayed, I thought they got him and JB spot on in a playful way, especially the entrance sequence, Lewis all boundless energy and JB all laid back cheesy cool.

Edited by robefc, 15 October 2012 - 16:22.


#2534 OoxLox

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:12

Ahhhh, I thought it was more along Kvothe's lines, and particularly bearing in mind his role in lewis's exit.

But this makes non controversial sense!

I didn't have an issue with the way he was potrayed, I thought they got him and JB spot on in a playful way, especially the entrance sequence, Lewis all boundless energy and JB all laid back cheesy cool.


Maybe some non-British watchers simply missed our national obsession with puns and wordplay :stoned:

Oh and if some LH fans are going to become even more sensitive and paranoid over the remainder of the season I'm hitting the silk and bailing out of this thread until December.

#2535 eronrules

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:13

i was grazing through the internet when i found this ... :p

Hamilton has been walking around the Suzuka paddock this weekend with a black armband around his bicep.

He is not mourning a loved one, but instead covering a new tattoo -- presumably at McLaren's behest.


link ...
http://paddocktalk.c...ory-206913.html

anyone hazard a guess as to what the heck is this article talking about???? :confused: :confused:

Edited by eronrules, 15 October 2012 - 16:13.


#2536 Force Ten

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:23

It's a long list.

Your credentials on vehicle dynamics? List them then, we are interested.

#2537 Boxerevo

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:27

2. if they were really feeling sooooo charitable why was Lewis not made aware of /invited to the team event going on?

Thats a good point,but they don't follow each other you know. :p

#2538 F1Champion

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:28

BBC article reports that Alonso vetoed Lewis coming to Ferrari but has allowed Vettel??? At the moment they don't look like best friends after Monza, I wonder if it would have been better to have Lewis instead.....anyway it doesn't matter now. I'd like Lewis to get another WDC but being with Mercedes is a gamble.

#2539 maverick69

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:31

Your credentials on vehicle dynamics? List them then, we are interested.


You do not need a degree in Mechanical Engineering to know that a car can be driven without an ARB.... Which was his original point........

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#2540 showtime

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:33

BBC article reports that Alonso vetoed Lewis coming to Ferrari but has allowed Vettel??? At the moment they don't look like best friends after Monza, I wonder if it would have been better to have Lewis instead.....anyway it doesn't matter now. I'd like Lewis to get another WDC but being with Mercedes is a gamble.


Don't believe everything that is published. For starters I'm sure Alonso has no power to veto Hamilton or any other driver. My guess is people at Ferrari are not mad enough to risk another 2007, even if it not necessarily had to happen.

#2541 SmokeScreen

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:33

BBC article reports that Alonso vetoed Lewis coming to Ferrari but has allowed Vettel??? At the moment they don't look like best friends after Monza, I wonder if it would have been better to have Lewis instead.....anyway it doesn't matter now. I'd like Lewis to get another WDC but being with Mercedes is a gamble.


wouldnt have thought it had anything to do with friendship
one can wonder how much influence his decision would have but if a lot then it suggests that Alonso really fancies his chances against Vettel.
that will be tasty too - can't wait can't wait

#2542 Tauhid

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:37

Lewis or his agents must have spoken to Ferrari but Ferrari is smart enough to know that they cannot employ a pair of two huge egos. It just doesn't work beautifully and someone always ends up getting hurt. The way the champions are divided into to the top 5 teams works out beautifully for me at least. Vettel for Red Bull, Alonso for Ferrari, Button for McLaren, Hamilton for Mercedes & Kimi for Lotus.

#2543 eronrules

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:40

You do not need a degree in Mechanical Engineering to know that a car can be driven without an ARB.... Which was his original point........


yes you don't need a ARB in a 'ORDINARY' road car, but in a F1 car you do ...

F1 cars are very stiff because they have to be, you need a planted rear and in a smooth ciruit like korea, people normally use stiffer ARB. if ARB is broken, the car rolls in the corner and wears it's tires out fast.

#2544 maverick69

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:44

yes you don't need a ARB in a 'ORDINARY' road car, but in a F1 car you do ...

F1 cars are very stiff because they have to be, you need a planted rear and in a smooth ciruit like korea, people normally use stiffer ARB. if ARB is broken, the car rolls in the corner and wears it's tires out fast.


Lol. No Shit.

I fear the point I have been trying to make has been lost.......

#2545 whitevisor

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 17:55

Your credentials on vehicle dynamics? List them then, we are interested.


Only because you are interested :) Are you a member of f1-technical forum by chance? :)

A sway bar works on a very basic principle: It torsionally couples the left and right suspension. The difference in bump between the left and right side causes a reactionary torque across the bar. This means that if the left side suspension compresses, the torque in the torsion bar will try to compress the right side suspension. It controls the roll of the car through turns. The resistance to roll is called the roll stiffness. A formula 1 car's roll stiffness is so high that even without the anti-roll bar the roll is still small compared to a road car.

Any technical car fan can tell you you don't need it for the car to function safely. I bet you didn't know the Mclaren MP4-12C has no sway-bars.

Edited by whitevisor, 15 October 2012 - 17:56.


#2546 study

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 17:58

You need it on the mclaren mp-28 for it to function CORRECTLY as can be seen by the weaving on the straight or are you saying that was normal?

#2547 femi

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 18:00

Mclaren seems to be losing PR battle that they declared on LH. The slant in most news outlets are not flattering to Mclaren at all. This is quite revealing how poor that team is managed, no wonder they are getting disappointing returns on investments. It is so sad...

#2548 whitevisor

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 18:05

You need it on the mclaren mp-28 for it to function CORRECTLY as can be seen by the weaving on the straight or are you saying that was normal?


Yes, but you don't need it for the car to be SAFE and drive 40 laps to get 1 point and beat a few Caterhams.

#2549 ZooL

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 18:14

Mclaren seems to be losing PR battle that they declared on LH. The slant in most news outlets are not flattering to Mclaren at all. This is quite revealing how poor that team is managed, no wonder they are getting disappointing returns on investments. It is so sad...

Could have been alot worse if Hamilton wasn't being so amicable about it.
I think Button has come out looking worse in all this too.

#2550 OoxLox

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 18:20

I understand how having a failed ARB would cause the car to react differently in cornering and also wear the tyres out more than usual, but I'm struggling with the twitchyness it showed under heavy braking into turn one and also on the straight itself. At one point there was an onboard glimpse of him having to correct the car while going full beans down the pit straight and it made me sit up and go "wtf?". Do any technical petrolheads know why the failure would have that effect? Would uneven tyre wear do that?

Not fishing for other gubbins in the conspiracy side of things, just want to understand the technical issues more as it's not often you see an F1 car do that stuff.

Edited by OoxLox, 15 October 2012 - 18:21.