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Longford; the 'Reims of the South Pacific'


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#1 Bernd

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Posted 12 March 2001 - 10:46

Hi all,

I am after some specific items for my construction of Longford for Grand Prix Legends. So far it is coming along quite nicely but for lack of data in the following areas.

1. A scan of a Longford Program Cover, any will do but 67 or especially 68 would be perfect.

2. Photo's of the Newry corner area and the famous Viaduct or anywere else for that matter, preferably from the late 60's as the track varied quite a bit in appearance over its lifetime.

3. A detailed map of the circuit and an aerial shot would be great.

If you do have these things just post them to the thread, many thanks in advance!

Other than I would love to hear from anyone who has tales to tell of this fantasic old circuit.

Graham Hill - The last of the old style of true road circuits.

Jack Brabham - There is nothing else in the southern hemisphere to equal it.

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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 March 2001 - 11:48

Must get my slides up for you to scan... never seen a pic of Tannery Straight anywhere else (taken from my car during a lap of the circuit between practice sessions).

Newry you'll find hard because all the pics were taken as close-ups there. The Ray Simpson collection must have bit of stuff, he was standing alongside Robin d'Abrera when the poor guy got barrelled by the Cooper.

Do you have my pics used in the MRA story?

#3 Bernd

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Posted 12 March 2001 - 12:29

The MRA story?

Yes Newry is proving troublesome I have little data for it. Tannery is fine layout wise but I need some photos to do the scenery, I want to have the famous Rocky's Tavern fully represented and have some drunks spilling out the front :)


#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 March 2001 - 12:44

Obviously you don't have my MRA pics...

#5 Bernd

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Posted 12 March 2001 - 22:14

No I don't believe I do, what year are they from?

#6 William Dale Jr

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Posted 13 March 2001 - 06:03

I know there is a video titled "Long Weekend at Longford". Channel 9 showed a part of it during the 1992 Belgian GP telecast. Thought about getting it when I was doing Longford for GP2, but in the end I didn't get it. I've got a site about Longford by a person from Tasmania but I don't know the address, fortunately I saved the page and it should have his e-mail still on it, he'd be a good person to get on to. I'll try to find the page for you.

#7 moody

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Posted 13 March 2001 - 06:25

..is there not a book called "Fast Track Back" about Longford's history with photos in it, the circuit sounds like it was amazing.

#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 March 2001 - 06:45

Barry Green has done a book, but it won't be a patch on the one Rob Saward ultimately does.

Maybe there's more through Andrew Lamont, he might know of any websites that are around, he's in Howrah in Tasmania...

#9 Bernd

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Posted 13 March 2001 - 08:32

Thanks William & Moody I already have both the video and the book I highly recommend them both quite enjoyable action on the video and some high drama in the book.

That page would be great thanks William.

Ray I agree Rob Saward seems to really know his stuff when it comes to Longford now if he would only answer his email :lol:

Finally Moody yes it is quite amazing I'm down to 2.15's in the early GPL version and when camber and elevations are added it should be around 2.08 about 5 seconds off the times of the greats, sounds about perfect to me! Of course the GPL greats will probably break 2 Minutes as they don't have to worry about a little thing like avoiding killing themselves.

oh yeah and fast phew it is fast I was hitting 320KPH on the flying mile

#10 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 March 2001 - 11:45

Of course, you're running the 3-litre engine while Clark and Hill only had 2.5... and you've probably got a bit of extra road width over the Long Bridge and don't climb steeply enough out of Newry.

Oh, and they would have been careful not to be on the power over the level crossing!

#11 Bernd

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Posted 13 March 2001 - 22:18

To answer your questions Ray

1. No I'm using a 2.5L engine in the Lotus 49 Chassis which gives me essentially a 49T

2. Long Bridge is the correct width re NARROW

3. The elevations are not there as yet just imagine the track completely flat.

4. The level crossing is not there yet either

#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 March 2001 - 23:54

Sorry, Bernd, I'll have to go to the next level then... what cams have you got in the DFW?

Don't forget there's a very minor hump coming into the braking area for Longford Corner... it was cut down after Timmy Mayer's crash, but still there. And the tree on the outside of Mountford was BIG.

#13 Bernd

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Posted 14 March 2001 - 00:32

OK I'll go into detail on the way GPL models its cars I'm sure at least one of you will find this interesting. There are 3 Basic types in the game. One type (F1) with sub categories

1. Formula 1 - These cars are comprehensively modeled all the way down to their specific handling & engine traits for the 7 main Marques raced in 1967. The level of detail in the modelling of the handling dynamics is unprecedented even the moving parts are modelled in the engine and everything has a wear co-efficient so you have to look after the machinery.

2. Advanced Trainer - These cars are a dumbed down version that does not have a full physics model to make them easier to drive they do however have a 2.5L engine

3. Basic Trainer - These cars are the same as the advanced trainer but only have a four speed gearbox and a 2 litre engine.

HOWEVER!

With the release of the GPL Engine Manager a utility that allows the user to swap engines between chassis you can have a fully modelled Formula 1 chassis mated with a 2.5L engine essentially giving you a Tasman spec car! These cars are called FD by the Engine Manager, I have no idea what FD means!
Because only one type of 2.5L engine is modelled If you took a Lotus or a Brabham, the easier to handle and more nimble Brabham has the advantage as they both have the same engine and it is down to chassis traits not power anymore.

Yeah Mountford is one area that we have near perfect and we are well aware of that tree which is going to be quite interesting to do. That bump coming into Longford I'm going to make at first in original spec just to see how much air I can get :) But in the finished version of course the proper planed off version will be in place.

#14 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 March 2001 - 00:44

You want to get air as you approach the Service Station?

Timmy's dead, why do you think a car 20mph faster there won't kill you? Or are you trying to emulate Lex Davison and just finish up in the pub?

#15 Bernd

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Posted 14 March 2001 - 01:05

Just a fun little experiment that is all, I doubt I'll be able to pull up before Pub Corner after going flat chat over that bump.

#16 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 March 2001 - 01:09

Well, if you can still steer it, there was either a narrow lane or a driveway opposite the approach... see if you can get in there... through the haybales, of course.

I ask again, do you have my Longford 'Closed Circuit' story, it has pictures...

#17 Bernd

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Posted 14 March 2001 - 01:21

No I don't Ray.

#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 March 2001 - 01:29

I'll get my slides to you... they came from 1965 and 1966... where will you be Sunday night?

#19 Bernd

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Posted 14 March 2001 - 01:36

Excellent, is there any Newry shots?

With my life I can never be sure where I will be somewhere there is a Television to watch Sepang later in the night :)

Has the CD got to you yet? If so just put the slides in the package with them when you send it back.

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#20 Bernd

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Posted 14 March 2001 - 03:37

You Beauty!!!

I've managed to secure a copy of the Black Book A Record of Tasman Racing 1960-1969. This should help immensely with trying to get the speed of the AI drivers right, amongst other things.

#21 jrosenzweig

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Posted 14 March 2001 - 06:21


Completely off topic, the Clipsal 500 is coming up soon in early April. I'll be going down there again this year and I will take a video camera in hand for the trip home. If i don't get down there before hand you can guarantee I'll try to get a taped lap of Lobethal at 60kph and at... umm, some other speed not too above the law :)

Ben I'll also get a reverse lap for prosperity. Anybody going down there btw?

#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 March 2001 - 06:48

If that's Easter, I have commitments in Brisbane.... shame... love to do it, either as the cameraman or as :drool: the driver...

#23 Bernd

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Posted 14 March 2001 - 08:22

100MPH+ Lap Average would be good Jamie.... You can do it!!! just 'borrow' that GT40 we saw when we were last there :lol:

I wouldn't mind coming down, but I don't really have the time to spare at the moment, next year I'll be there.

The fact that I hate the V8 Supercrap ah cars doesn't help either. Though the lure of the 3 Litre Pre-Wing F1 will eventually get me along by itself.

You'll have to take a nice tape recorder so that you can record the Ferrari 312 that should make Keir not to mention me happy :)

#24 jrosenzweig

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Posted 15 March 2001 - 08:27


Tape recorder.... I'll have to find someone that has one quickly ! I'm only guessing the 312 will be there. If not why not :)

#25 William Dale Jr

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Posted 15 March 2001 - 10:41

Sorry Bernd, but I haven't been able to find the page, but I haven't had much time to spare at the moment. Just started Year 11, and over the last couple of days I've had to write a four-minute persuasive speech, learn it and present it today, and now I've got to do an eight-minute persuasive speech tonight, and I haven't thought of a topic yet!! Any suggestions?

By the way, if you ever need a beta tester for Longford, you know where to find me :)

#26 Bernd

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Posted 15 March 2001 - 11:34

How commercialism has ruined Sport!..... Thats a good topic

When you find time if you could have another look for the site it would be much appreciated.

Thanks for the offer of Beta testing but we already have a substantial team in place ie The Tasman Project.



#27 Barry Lake

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Posted 17 March 2001 - 12:02

Bernd

I don't consider myself to be a Longford expert, but I was fortunate enough to have some laps around there in the early 1970s before they began to carve it up. Since then I have visited a few times, increasingly disturbed at how completely they are destroying it.

A couple of points:

I understand that Long Bridge became narrower somewhere along the line, in that logs (probably telegraph poles) were laid along each side of the roadway along the base of the timber side rails.

Quite why this was done I am not sure. Perhaps to prevent cars - or even more likely, trucks - from ripping out the side railings.

You would need to study photographs year by year to pick when it was done. I know I have seen pics of it in both forms. Rob Saward perhaps knows... If he ever answers your e-mails. Perhaps I should give him a prod. He has gone back to full-time employent now, as well as running his rare books and brochures business on the side, and trying to complete the Longford book. So I am not surprised you don't hear from him.

The other point about the track that might have some bearing on what you are doing is the long left-hand bend before Newry Bridge. I was there with Jack Brabham in the early 1990s, doing a piece for a TV report. There was no fence of any sort beside the road, although there was one down a very steep embankment. If you went off the road, you would have had to be almost at a standstill to drop sharply enough to hit the fence. With any speed at all, a car would easily have cleared the fence into the cow paddock. I seem to remember some mid-sized trees in there and could picture a car landing right in the top of one if it went off.

I asked Jack, "Did it ever worry you at all, to know you would be coming through here virtually flat, with nothing to stop you flying out there?"

He said, "I've never seen it before. I didn't know what was out there. I only looked at the road... I didn't ever intend to go off there anyway, so why would I need to know."


#28 Barry Lake

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Posted 17 March 2001 - 12:06

It's beginning to sound as if I one day am going to have to buy Legends. But I would want to have a proper seat and steering wheel, etc.

At the Melbourne Motor Show a couple of weeks back former racer Jon Crooke (Australian F2 Champion) was enthusiastically showing me his "Hyper Stimulator", a realistic racing car cockpit with real steering wheel, pedals, gearshift etc.

A lot of racing drivers have bought them - not just in Australia but all over the world. he rattled off some fairly impressive names.

Australian touring car racer Brad Jones has two, so he can race his friends when they visit.

They're not cheap though.

#29 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 March 2001 - 13:22

You'd be in the same boat as me if you got Legends, Barry.... it would absorb all the time you now use for sleeping and working, leaving only time for eating, and that would be under attack too.

I agree, it's necessary to have the proper rig-out to make the most of it. Tried the hyper-simulator a few years ago, brilliant.

As for the drop off the side of the road, at that point they would have been more than busy enough lining up for the flat-out entry onto the bridge.

Regarding the bridge, there were substantial timbers along the edges as shown in my slides. I have a number looking straight onto and at an angle, and it appears to me that the timbers are what you would normally expect to see in that setting. perhaps they are 9" square, and certainly the don't look like afterthoughts.

My photos are from the 1966 meeting, so if there was any extra timber added, it would have to only have been for either 1967 or 1968. There are no photos in RCN of the Long Bridge at either meeting.

If Jack mentioned it, then it was 1967... he wasn't there for the wet one.

Bernd should be able to post one of these photos within the week.

#30 Bernd

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Posted 18 March 2001 - 02:22

Thanks for the info Barry I will probably have a couple more questions for you in the future :)

Actually one quick one now! The entry on to Long Bridge was definately flat? at the moment it isn't but I did think it was too tight.

When I scan Ray's slides maybe he will post them on this thread.

The version we are doing by the way is the 1968 version because they are the 2.5L cars that GPL simulates. The track will probably end up being a blend of years though due to lack of info.

#31 Bernd

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Posted 18 March 2001 - 02:34

I forgot to mention that the Tasman carset has just been released for GPL which is just perfect now when we can get Longford, Wigram & The Farm finished & released we'll be on the way to the entire Tasman series.... Have a look!

http://www.ozemail.c...ade/tasman.html

#32 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 March 2001 - 03:13

Can you find Alec Mildren's son, Bernd... he might have the film that Alec shot there in 1965... wouldn't be surprised if he filmed more years than that... and it might have been 66 anyway... I was talking to Alec in the pits on the Friday afternoon and he was doing some filming, wouldn't be surprised if he didn't run off a lap of the track at some time.

See if I can get phone numbers before I see you...

#33 Bernd

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Posted 20 March 2001 - 02:40

Few things!

Barry I have got back in contact with Rob Saward he was away in Japan on business.

Ray has some very nice slides he's given me which I must find time to scan. If he gives permission I'll post some never before seen Bell originals of Longford and Sandown.

The altitudes & camber are being plugged into the track at the moment so things are going really well :cool:

#34 Dennis David

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Posted 20 March 2001 - 04:45

Reims the "Longford" of Europe.

#35 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 March 2001 - 13:02

I frankly think it would be hard, at this distance, to see the Reims connection.

In those far-off days there was the long straights to compare, but today the photos we see are all of the corners. And the railway crossing, the bridges, the town... all unfamiliar when compared with Reims.

Like this one of Clark and Brabham between the Viaduct and the King's Bridge:

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Or the bushes and trees each side of the long Tannery Straight, this being after the railway level crossing, a part of the circuit which never saw a photographer... this is a scene between races, 1965:

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#36 Bernd

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Posted 02 April 2001 - 03:25

*Progress Report*

Dennis the reference of Longford to Reims is more the atmosphere and ambience of the event more than the circuit itself. It was commonly called the Reims of the South Pacific at the time even on promotional material. I wouldn't have a clue who coined the phrase.

OK circuit layout is as good as finished, the length is almost exactly 4.5 Miles. Big deal you may say but it has taken a month of work to get this far. GPL is bloody hard to edit let me tell you :mad:

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Only a few more months to go, if we don't get to frustrated with the monotony of the work and top ourselves :lol:

#37 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 April 2001 - 03:37

How are Warwick Farm and Lakeside going?

Who's doing the Lakeside one, I have a lot of period reference for that, and they have to get the bump over the tree root up the back just right!

Yeah... you know, the one on the apex of the fast right hander behind the pits...

#38 Bernd

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Posted 02 April 2001 - 04:25

I have nothing to do with Warwick Farm but I know that it is at a slightly more advanced stage than Longford but is on hold at the moment.

Lakeside is news to me I didn't know anyone was working on it!

Wigram is the other Tasman track that is at an advanced stage, the graphics and objects are left to be done.

#39 William Dale Jr

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 16:58

You can see I'm a fast worker:

http://www.longnet.c...gford/motor.htm

This is the site I was talking about. I only found it by stumbling across an email I'd sent to the guy maintaining this page, I thought I'd lost all that correspondence when I changed computers and lost my Inbox. Oh well.

Don't know if it is of any help to you, but I think it's one of the only websites to have any info on Longford, pics or otherwise.

BTW I was the one working on Lakeside, but I've had to stop work to devote more time to schoolwork (never, ever thought I'd say that) :( I had a layout, but then I found a much more accurate map. I was working of the map that is found in V8 Supercar programmes, which after driving it in GP2 I knew was wrong, so I had to modify it but it was still wrong. I doubt F1 cars could go through Hungrys corner flat in fifth!
To do Lakeside justice would involve making a new layout based on the new map, but since I've just started holidays, I might see what I can do, to perhaps save time for the person who can find time to do it properly.

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#40 Bernd

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 23:18

Thanks William, I had already discovered it in the mean time :)

The early altitudes are being put into Longford now, man the run down into the viaduct is fun in a full 3L Lotus 49 :cool:

#41 Bernd

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Posted 14 January 2002 - 23:19

Thought I'd post a preview of this slow moving side project of mine.

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The outstanding Programme Cover modified from the original artwork by John Bradley from BAPOM

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The track map done by me! These will be redone better by John when the track is presentable enough to send him

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Just before the Start/Finish line this area is about 60% complete

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The first flat out kink showing the town of Longfords Water Supply tower. This area is about 90% complete

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The drop down to the Viaduct. This area is about 80% complete

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Nearly onto the Kings Bridge. This area is about 60% complete

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Just out of the Pub Corner. This area is about 40% complete

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The rail crossing on Tannery Straight. This area is about 90% complete

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The heavy vegetation on Tannery Straight. This area is about 90% complete

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The nye flat kink onto Long Bridge. This area is about 60% complete

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The tricky uphill Newry Corner. This area is about 40% complete

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The braking point for the very tight Mountford Corner. This area is about 30% complete

Most of the graphics you see are mine and some are placeholders. As you can see I am no Michael Turner. If we can get the basic look of the track and the feel exactly right I'll be happy. Any and all comments very welcome.

#42 ehagar

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Posted 15 January 2002 - 04:03

:eek: :eek:

Gorgeous!

#43 jrosenzweig

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Posted 15 January 2002 - 06:14

Ben i've already seen these pics before! :lol:

#44 Bernd

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Posted 15 January 2002 - 06:18

Bugger off Jamie :wave:

#45 Catalina Park

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Posted 15 January 2002 - 08:55

I think you have done a great job, it looks very good. The exit of Newry corner looks like it has the right elevation change and the run to Mountford looks lifelike!
Are you still after a scan of the 68 programme cover? Because I have one I can scan for you.

#46 Bernd

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Posted 15 January 2002 - 09:00

:up: :up: :up:

Well we've decided to use the 67 cover but I'd dearly love the 68 cover and anything else you have at hand! My email address is jamo@bigpond.net.au
The run to Mountford looks a lot better than it has any right to thanks to the awesome background graphics that team member Gustaf made using a panoramic picture. There are still loads of tree's and foliage to go into that area.

Thanks so much :D

#47 Gary Davies

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Posted 15 January 2002 - 13:19

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bernd
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bernd
Hi all, I am after .... Photo's of .... the famous Viaduct ... [/QUOTE]

Bernd, here is a humble offering from one with little else on Longford. I post it here on the off-chance that some of the Longford experts perhaps don't have it. It's a lovely shot and it came from a fairly obscure British annual called "Motor Racing Year 1966-7" from Knightsbridge Publications.

If you'd like a hi-res version to see more detail, just PM me and I'll be happy to oblige.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by jrosenzweig
Completely off topic, the Clipsal 500 is coming up soon in early April. I'll be going down there again this year and I will take a video camera in hand for the trip home. If i don't get down there before hand you can guarantee I'll try to get a taped lap of Lobethal at 60kph and at... umm, some other speed not too above the law

Ben I'll also get a reverse lap for prosperity. Anybody going down there btw?
[/QUOTE]

If anyone wants a driver ... or any contemporary pics of Lobethal - see moi! Here in the Adelaide Hills I'm just minutes away from the circuit!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bernd
... Though the lure of the 3 Litre Pre-Wing F1 will eventually get me along by itself. You'll have to take a nice tape recorder so that you can record the Ferrari 312 ... [/QUOTE]

Sadly, Bernd, Once again, I don't think the old F1 cars (aka Formula Adelaide) are featured this year. I don't think they're appreciated (wot are them things?) by those who follow the taxi racing. :cry: :cry: :cry: I certainly couldn't see'em in the Clipsal 500 website - http://www.adelaide500.net/



Vanwall.

#48 Bentcam

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Posted 15 January 2002 - 16:06

Beautiful work. Very nice!!

#49 Bernd

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Posted 15 January 2002 - 22:29

Vanwall, that picture is from a different angle and is one I have never seen before, it will be handy. Please email the high-res version to my email address which was up the page a bit. You're a very lucky man to have a circuit of such quality in your backyard, even though the road surface leaves something to be desired these days.

Tragic about the F1's no longer being at Adelaide, though I must say it was rather dangerous imagine hitting a solid concrete wall at speed in a Lotus 49 you would be unlikely to survive.

#50 jrosenzweig

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Posted 16 January 2002 - 06:40

Vanwall I already have Lobethal on VHS and i must say its very nice except for the snails pace :(

Ben i don't think thats the reason why the Clipsal organiser got rid of the event, I believe its more to do with money and the fact that the nice F1 cars don't attract enough attention. How many hoons drunk on the oval in front of the big screen want to see a F1 car from the 60's? Not many, they'd rather see something else. Thank god for Historic racing ben :)