125 replies to this topic

[encircled]

Buried on the Vettel-Alonso incident, the di Resta-Alonso incident during the 1st lap of the race was not given that much attention.







It seems like Alonso has pushed di Resta out of the track to gain an advantage, but with the ambiguity on the rules at the beginning of the race makes the decision seem less clear. Should Alonso be penalized for this incident? Your thoughts?

Edited by encircled, 10 September 2012 - 17:01.

[Cenotaph]

in the context of Vettel's penalty, yes, without that bs then no.

[Disgrace]

Just like di Resta on Senna, the guy in front would simply not have been looking that way and the guy behind should place his car better (i.e slot behind).

[MeatPopsicle]

didnt they show on sky he was looking in his left mirror and could see him clearly..

and what did charlie say about first lap incidents.. was it just on the run to the first corner he wasnt gonna police or was it the entire first lap?

[joshb]

Either all 3 incidents (Vet on Alo, Alo on diR, diR on Sen) should have been penalties, which I don't like seeing
Or all 3 seen as racing incidents and none penalised

No wonder drivers take such chances like Vettel did, half the time they get away with it, its worth the risk

[P123]

Just like di Resta on Senna, the guy in front would simply not have been looking that way and the guy behind should place his car better (i.e slot behind).

I think the replay showed Alonso was looking in his left mirror, and di Resta was far enough alongside for Alonso to know where he was. Should it have been a penalty? It would have been harsh, but it was borderline on deliberately crowding another driver off the track.

[ayali]

First lap right after the start
Charlie doesn't do penalties in that situation
also no sane steward will penalize a Ferrari in Monza for such a trivial thing

[abc]

Thanks god I was not alone to spot this. I already wrote Alonso looked like dishonest person yesterday to say the least.

[SpaMaster]

It just proves what a hypocrite and cry-baby Alonso is. Next, I am not surprised nothing was done about it, because it is just another Monza favour.

Edited by SpaMaster, 10 September 2012 - 17:20.

[abc]

Just like di Resta on Senna, the guy in front would simply not have been looking that way and the guy behind should place his car better (i.e slot behind).

It was very clear situation though, just two of them going on straight and one pushing another one off the road.

[toroRosso]

lol this is a fiasco

[Tuxy]

lol this is a fiasco

Only for those who choose to dwell on it.

On to Singapore.

[Seanspeed]

It wasn't the best maneuver to make, but 1st laps do tend to get a little pushy and Alonso was also trying to keep in the tow of the guy ahead of him.

[Currahee]

I'm a di Resta fan but didn't really see too much in it tbh.

Alonso did mention him in the post race interview. Perhaps guilty?

Looks worse than it looked live on TV though.

[Bloggsworth]

What incident?

[juandiego]

The footage provided isn't clear enough to decide.

An enlarged view of pics #3 and #4, in which it seems Alonso did not let Di Resta enough space, appears to show that Di Resta's front wheels were behind Alonso's rear wheels.

The rule clarification:
"For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'."

It's impossible to know from that footage whether or not Di Resta's front wing reached said point of Alonso's car.

[SpaMaster]

It wasn't the best maneuver to make, but 1st laps do tend to get a little pushy and Alonso was also trying to keep in the tow of the guy ahead of him.

Sorry, what? The fact that it was a first lap is no excuse. Just because you want to keep tow of the guy ahead, you can push others around you off the track? Tow or not, you mind the guys around you.

[Slowinfastout]

Again it depends if it was done on purpose, the rule says 'deliberate crowding'..

I think because it's the madness of lap 1 and it's less likely to be a definite 1 on 1 battle, it is more likely to be overlooked.

In cases like this maybe Force India should have complained, or maybe they did... it's a balancing act because you don't wanna create a precedent that will come to bite you in the ass later.

[crespo]

What Vettel did to Alonso is considerably worse than what Alonso did to di Resta and to Vettel last year. No penalty.

[as65p]

Sorry, what? The fact that it was a first lap is no excuse. Just because you want to keep tow of the guy ahead, you can push others around you off the track? Tow or not, you mind the guys around you.

Guess you were very angry at Vettel yesterday?

[as65p]

Except for pic #1, where diResta is doing the crowding, Alonso is always in front with all four wheels in the later pics, so diResta was not alongside anymore. You can't crowd another car if it's behind you. diResta just refused to accept he had lost a place, his problem alone. Unless there are pics showing how Alonso didn't leave a cars width with diResta's front wheels at least level with Alonsos rear wheels, non-issue.

[RaikkonenZn]

The footage provided isn't clear enough to decide.

An enlarged view of pics #3 and #4, in which it seems Alonso did not let Di Resta enough space, appears to show that Di Resta's front wheels were behind Alonso's rear wheels.

The rule clarification:
"For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'."

It's impossible to know from that footage whether or not Di Resta's front wing reached said point of Alonso's car.

In terms of what the FIAs rule says isn't it fairly clear from the first picture that's been posted that Di Restas front wing is definitely more than alongside Alonsos rear wheel? Anyway the FIAs rule application has always been a bit iffy - they deem one incident a contravention of the rules and then when something similar happens later in the race, they'll apply the rules differently!

That being said the Alonso-Vettle incident is slightly different in that Alonso would've definitely overtaken Vettel if he had enough room - this DiR and Alo one is never a given seeing as it was at much lower speeds and even if DiR could've gotten side by side there is no guarantee he would've overtaken Alonso especially with NO DRS in the opening laps.

[abc]

Guess you were very angry at Vettel yesterday?

rather angry at Vettels penalty,dont you think?
Alonso just pushed Resta from straight piece of tarmac to grass not to be overtaken and its deemed perfectly ok.
This was more clear cut than Alonso - Vettel battle, only that in Vettel case it looked and was more dangerous, but only because Alonso went for it. He would get plus point from me for that, but his crying negated all and stewards just finished their monkey business.

[abc]

Except for pic #1, where diResta is doing the crowding, Alonso is always in front with all four wheels in the later pics, so diResta was not alongside anymore. You can't crowd another car if it's behind you. diResta just refused to accept he had lost a place, his problem alone. Unless there are pics showing how Alonso didn't leave a cars width with diResta's front wheels at least level with Alonsos rear wheels, non-issue.

Yeah so Resta was behind and just forgot to drive straight You are on the roll today as65p.

[MP422]

I saw this too, Alonso at Monza get a penalty.... yea right !!!

[Cenotaph]

Yeah so Resta was behind and just forgot to drive straight You are on the roll today as65p.

yeh, I had trouble understanding that logic as well. tbh, we can't really tell from those pictures but it seems to me that Di Resta is only clearly behind when he is already off track, which you would expect considering that grass and tarmac are quite a bit different.

[SpaMaster]

Guess you were very angry at Vettel yesterday?

I can't say I was very angry, but I was a bit frustrated when he forced Raikkonen off like the latter was not there at all, at the exit of the first chicane.

[as65p]

Yeah so Resta was behind and just forgot to drive straight You are on the roll today as65p.

I did a mistake in the other thread an acknowledged as much. Maybe a big deal for you, but really, it happens.

Show me were diResta is at least front-to-rearwheels alongside Alonso, then we talk.

[as65p]

yeh, I had trouble understanding that logic as well. tbh, we can't really tell from those pictures but it seems to me that Di Resta is only clearly behind when he is already off track, which you would expect considering that grass and tarmac are quite a bit different.

We can tell that diResta is never far enough alongside Alonso in the pics to have a vaild claim of being given space. I'm open to more footage and if they show different, happy to stand corrected.

[hammibal]

It seems maybe its ok for Alonso to do it, it will be interesting to see what happems if ever he does that again

[Skinnyguy]

Haven´t seen it, Well spotted. Reminiscent of Lewis in 2008. It´s just as bad, or worse, as they are not even on the "is that a corner or not" point. He just didn´t fancy fighting that Force India fairly in a braking battle. Shame he got awat with it.

[encircled]

Additional captures taken from this video by LinkNorway on youtube.

[Skinnyguy]

Those arguing Di Resta was not alongside are wrong. These captures are good enough. He was alongside from the very beggining, and got nicer traction, if anything he was gaining inches all the time. With KERS you can never be 100% sure, but he must have been alongside in the hot spot.

[Seanspeed]

Sorry, what? The fact that it was a first lap is no excuse. Just because you want to keep tow of the guy ahead, you can push others around you off the track? Tow or not, you mind the guys around you.

If Di Resta was actually alongside(hard to tell with the pics) then yes, it was probably wasn't a good move to make, like I already said. I just think its far more likely that running him off probably wasn't his intent as his focus was also on maintaining a tow from Kobayashi since he was in a big hurry to make up places. I'm not saying what he did was ok, but it probably wasn't quite as malicious a move as Vettel did to Alonso.

[EvanRainer]

LMAO at people trying to claim that this is somehow different to the Vettel incident, using all the same arguments in the Vettel thread used to defend Vettel.

Yeah, trying not to dwell on this and all but it's REALLY being made hard not to do so.

None of these is a penalty, Alonso bitched, the penalty was given only because it was a Ferrari in Monza and that's the truth of the matter.

[jeze]

You guys are like those in my student hallway trying to set me up for not cleaning the kitchen, manufacturing evidence in the process.

On the first lap as long as there are no incidents the stewards will never do anything. It's just part of the game since it's so tight and anything can happen. Alonso followed the racing line and was probably not even aware Di Resta was up on him. It could be argued as a bit dangerous, but I don't remember anyone complaining when Hamilton short-cut the chicane on the first lap in the 2007 race and got no penalty for staying clear of Massa afterwards.

I wouldn't want to be a steward on this one, but forcing a driver off the track in 200 mph is worse than in 100 mph or lower. Why wasn't Kubica penalised for running Alonso off the track at Silverstone in 2010 and Vettel penalised for dodgy starting manouevres in Germany 2010 and Japan 2011? Or Alonso at Monza last year for doing the same thing to Vettel? In my opinion all of those were drive-throughs. This one wasn't.

[midgrid]

Very similar to an incident between Lewis Hamilton and Timo Glock in the 2008 race (no investigation or penalties in that case). What's more ironic is that it's also similar to Michael Schumacher edging Alonso onto the grass on the first lap of the 2003 British Grand Prix, which Alonso was very unhappy about. I don't think this manoeuvre warrants any further investigation, however.

[encircled]

Here's another video from the chicane

http://www.youtube.c...vukLtJBtE#t=74s

Edited by encircled, 10 September 2012 - 19:55.

[bourbon]

It just proves what a hypocrite and cry-baby Alonso is. Next, I am not surprised nothing was done about it, because it is just another Monza favour.

That is why I do not rate Alonso as a driver. He complains as if he is a bastion of righteousness and then turns around and does the same thing himself before you can blink an eye. For this reason, among others, his results are all suspect, imo. That is what happened here.

All the closing the door stuff isn't good for wheel to wheel. However, it is okay to the extent of the rules (1 move). I also agree you shouldn't force a driver off the road. But I think what is overlooked is the driver behind and his responsibility in making a judicious attempt. He can't just disruptively barge in at will and then blame the front driver for not ruining his own race to ensure some wild BS move doesn't land the rear driver in the rubble.

Edited by bourbon, 10 September 2012 - 20:06.

[olliek88]

Having seen all the evidence, including Alonso's onboard on skysports, which clearly showed him looking in his left hand mirror for a long period of time (which Ant even pointed out) then its hard to see much of a difference between this and the Alonso v Vettel later in the race. Alonso forced Paul off the circuit and by the letter of the law.............

[as65p]

Having seen all the evidence, including Alonso's onboard on skysports, which clearly showed him looking in his left hand mirror for a long period of time (which Ant even pointed out) then its hard to see much of a difference between this and the Alonso v Vettel later in the race. Alonso forced Paul off the circuit and by the letter of the law.............

Where is the rule that looking in his mirror makes a driver guilty?

I'll repeat again, to make this a case at all there must be a fraction of time where those two things need to happen at together:

a) Di Resta's front wheels are at least level with Alonsos rear wheels
b) Alonso not leaving him a cars width at that point

I still have to see any picture showing that.

Edit: spelling.

Edited by as65p, 10 September 2012 - 20:54.

[Skinnyguy]

I'll repeat again, to make this a case at all there must be a fraction of time where those two things need to happen at the same time

a) Di Resta's front wheels are at least level with Alonsos rear wheels
b) Alonso not leaving him a cars width at that point

You´re totally right... but that happened as early as the OP, mate.

[olliek88]

Where is the rule that looking in his mirror makes a driver guilty?

I'll repeat again, to make this a case at all there must be a fraction of time where those two things need to happen at together:

a) Di Resta's front wheels are at least level with Alonsos rear wheels
b) Alonso not leaving him a cars width at that point

I still have to see any picture showing that.

Edit: spelling.

Never said that is what makes Alonso guilty of forcing Di Resta off track, the photos and video footage clearly show that, but it rules out the possibility that he didn't know Di Resta was there.

[as65p]

You´re totally right... but that happened as early as the OP, mate.

Look harder. In the pics Di Resta is alongside there is no problem at all, Di Resta has the whole track to his left to play width. From pic 3 on, when Di Resta takes to the grass, he has dropped behind. He's still very close and his front wing seems in danger, but his front wheels are always behind Alonsos rears, which is the acknowledged point of being considered alongside. Di Resta simply wasn't.

[juandiego]

In terms of what the FIAs rule says isn't it fairly clear from the first picture that's been posted that Di Restas front wing is definitely more than alongside Alonsos rear wheel? Anyway the FIAs rule application has always been a bit iffy - they deem one incident a contravention of the rules and then when something similar happens later in the race, they'll apply the rules differently!

That being said the Alonso-Vettle incident is slightly different in that Alonso would've definitely overtaken Vettel if he had enough room - this DiR and Alo one is never a given seeing as it was at much lower speeds and even if DiR could've gotten side by side there is no guarantee he would've overtaken Alonso especially with NO DRS in the opening laps.

The problem with pic #1 is that both Alonso and Di Resta are like 150 meters farther back than in pic #2. Alonso had the inside of the track for the next turn (3) and better momentum going out of corner 2 as he was on a wider line, therefore in pic #2 he may well have been completely ahead of Di Resta. By the way, very poor cameras positioning at those points.

Even there still remain to be checked whether or not Alonso let enough room at his left for Di Resta in case this latter actually had his front wing at Alonso's rear wheels level, which seems enough room in pic #3 but it's not clear in pic #4 though in this one Di Resta appears to be completely behind Alonso, front wing included.

In my opinion, it can't be ruled out that Di Resta managed to put his front wing at Alonso's rear wheels level but slightly, if any, and going nowhere through that line and tight room, therefore he touched the grass as soon as he corrected when noticed some risk or directly misjudged the available room. In the running footage, Alonso did not seem to make any movement leftwards to crowd Di Resta, he kept the same line that the cars in front. He seems, perhaps, to go a bit wider than cars in front but before than pic #3 shows.

Very unclear footage to draw a definitive conclusion. Probably an on-board take would clear this up.

[Skinnyguy]

There was a signature around here that said something like "human´s ability to self-deceit is beyond imagination". Guess it´s right.

[Coops3]

It looks like he's pretty much alongside to me. It also seems unlikely DiResta left the track without having to.

[as65p]

There was a signature around here that said something like "human´s ability to self-deceit is beyond imagination". Guess it´s right.

Guess so, otherwise the thread wouldn't exist.

[olliek88]

There was a signature around here that said something like "human´s ability to self-deceit is beyond imagination". Guess it´s right.

Makes me laugh, there's clearly little difference between this and the Alonso Vettel incident & yet clear, indisputable evidence is ignored. Oh well.

[as65p]

Makes me laugh, there's clearly little difference between this and the Alonso Vettel incident & yet clear, indisputable evidence is ignored. Oh well.

Show it, then.